Matchup Ratios version 2.0- UPDATED PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gallax]

This thread was made to add more chaos to these boards of late. Actually this is to help settle down all the turmoil that i have been sensing. Here are my ratios. Dispute/discuss however much you like. In the end, which will be very soon, I am posting the ratios to kitt22 and he is hopefully going to put them in the new template he made.

Format------ (New pika::opponent)( original::ratio)

Updates To Look at:

Green means our matchup is more at an advantage than originally thought

Red means our matchup is more at a disadvantage than originally thought

White Means They Stayed The Same

Character ratios


Bowser---------------------------- 60:40 (65:35)

Im lowering bowser down to 60:40 due the the jab cancel/fire breath cancel of tjolt and his ability to kill pika at lower percents.


Captain Falcon-------------------- 70:30


Diddy Kong------------------------ 45:55 (40:60) (35:65)

This matchup clearly favors diddy, but the original ratio and the enhanced one gave diddy too much credit. Because we can control the nanerz the ratio was increased in our favor.


Donkey Kong---------------------- 55:45 (60:40)

I decided to lower this since it was obvious from the ratios given that this was either a little in our favor or just a hard matchup for that person. Overall we do have the advantage, but it is very slight.


Falco------------------------------- 50:50 (60:40) (45:55)

A bunch of people spoke up about this. its been changed.


Fox---------------------------------70:30 (75:25)
The reason for the fox change is that getting fox into the grab can e a difficult thing to do. so i am lowering it just a bit.


Ganondorf--------------------------65:35 (60:40)

The people have spoken.


Ice Climbers------------------------45:55 (?????)

Some people thought it was greatly in the IC's advantage or slightly in our advantage. Averaging the values and then putting my knowledge in with it of what i've seen in videos and experienced, this is what i came to.


Ike----------------------------------55:45


Jigglypuff---------------------------60:40 (?????)

This matchup is in pikas favor. Period.


Kirby--------------------------------50:50 (55:45)

People said even and I could go along with it. Except that i have played a good kirby and it is a constant battle against him and very strenuous. Who knows though.


King DeDeDe------------------------60:40


Link----------------------------------60:40


Lucario------------------------------45:55


Lucas--------------------------------50:50


Luigi---------------------------------45:55


Mario--------------------------------55:45



Marth--------------------------------35:65 (30:70) (35:65)

This is our hardest matchup. Marth deserves a little more credit with that range.


Meta Knight--------------------------40:60 (35:65)
MK is getting easier and easier to fight once you learn how to counter his moves such as nado and shuttle loop.


Mr. Game and Watch----------------40:60

I cannot change this for that person who wanted the matchup ratio to favor gaw more. Disregarding that you were the only one who felt differently about this, this is my most knowledgable matchup other than snake and it should not be any higher than 40:60.


Ness----------------------------------55:45 (45:55)

I could see this matchup being in Ness' favor after giving it more thought and playing prime.


Peach---------------------------------50:50


Pikachu------------------------------ 100000000000:1


Pit------------------------------------45:55


Pokemon Trainer--------------------55:45

I cannot change this due to squirtle and then charizards kill potential.


Olimar--------------------------------45:55

This matchup favors olimar ever so slightly. Which is why this will not change right now.


R.O.B.---------------------------------40:60 (35:65)

This was a community effort here. this mathup is a little rough for me, but notas much for others. so it was lowered in our favor.


Samus--------------------------------60:40 (55:45)

It was a little more in our favor than i originally thought.


Sheik---------------------------------60:40


Snake--------------------------------50:50


Sonic---------------------------------55:45


Toon Link----------------------------50:50 (45:55)

I had this matchup at 45:55 because i have a lot of tink experience and i believe that tink has a very, very slight advantage. but, i have been known to say that this matchup does come down to the player and whoever knows this matchup better. so i am changing it to what you see above.


Wario--------------------------------40:60

Will not change this right now without a very good explanation as to why i should.


Wolf----------------------------------55:45


Yoshi---------------------------------55:45


Zero Suit Samus---------------------50:50

I know the matchup chart says that zamus is at a disadvantage against us, but i believe that the matchup ratio is 50:50.

Zelda---------------------------------45:55






And there you go. Have fun.

 

[Kenrawr]

Bowser-----70:30
Captain Falcon-----70:30
Diddy-----35:65
DK-----55:45
Falco-----45:55
Fox-----60:40
Ganondorf-----70:30
IC's-----?
Ike-----55:45
Jiggs-----60:40
Kirby-----50:50
D3-----60:40
Link-----60:40
Lucario-----40:60
Lucas-----50:50
Luigi-----50:50
Mario-----55:45
Marth-----30:70
ROB-----35:65
Samus-----55:45
Shiek-----60:40
Snake-----50:50
Sonic-----55:45
TL-----45:55
Wario-----45:55
Wolf-----50:50
Yoshi-----?
ZSS-----?
Zelda-----45:55 or 50:50

Wuddo I know though

 

[gallax]

please just post your opinions that are different than mine. that way i dont have to scroll around and see if they match or not.

 

[King~]

Diddy------50:50
ice climbers--------40:60
marth-------40:60, 45:55
Rob--------50:50
snake-------45:55

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Donkey Kong---------------------- 55:45
Falco------------------------------- 60:40
Fox--------------------------------- 70:30
Ganondorf--------------------------65:35
Ice Climbers------------------------55:45
Ike----------------------------------60:40
Jigglypuff---------------------------60:40
Link----------------------------------65:35
Marth--------------------------------30:70
Ness----------------------------------55:45
Olimar--------------------------------50:50
R.O.B.--------------------------------40:60
Samus--------------------------------60:40
Toon Link----------------------------50:50
Wolf----------------------------------55:45

 

[MrEh]

I really think Bowser is more like 60-40 btw.

But hey, what do I know? ^^

 

[KuroKitt10]

Marth--------------------------------30:70

I agree with this. I've had the honor of playing a Marth recently - and they've just picked him up and I still have a wicked hard time. At least for me, his range just makes it impossible to approach.

Mew.

 

[YagamiLight]

Just posting to confirm that (as an Ike user) a 45:55 disadvantage is a reasonable estimate.

 

[Kenrawr]

I like mah way gallax =P
Personally I'd want to see all the opinions so I can make a mental average.

Kitt--I called it first and stuff.

 

[gallax]

hmm let me think k-9 about what you said. so if they post only their differences then we wont know what they think about everything else?

it seems to me as if they post only their differences then it means their opinions about the other matchups are the same as mine. then that means we do know all of their opinions.

 

[xX-LeaF-Xx]

Fox is like 90:10 in Pika's favor. That matchup is seriously a joke. A 0-80% CG, combined with numerous high-priority attacks and speed, this matchup is just ****. If you lose against a Fox user, you suck. Pika is the main reason Fox users should have a secondary.

 

[M15t3R E]

Glad you're getting the ball rollin'.

Diddy Kong------------------------ 40:60
Ganondorf--------------------------65:35
Ice Climbers------------------------55:45
Jigglypuff---------------------------60:40
Kirby--------------------------------50:50
King DeDeDe------------------------65:35
Mr. Game and Watch----------------35:65
Ness----------------------------------50:50
Pokemon Trainer--------------------60:40
R.O.B.---------------------------------40:60
Toon Link----------------------------45:55
Yoshi---------------------------------55:45

 

[King~]

Fox is like 90:10 in Pika's favor. That matchup is seriously a joke. A 0-80% CG, combined with numerous high-priority attacks and speed, this matchup is just ****. If you lose against a Fox user, you suck. Pika is the main reason Fox users should have a secondary.

lol if you dont get the grab the match up is actually hard, fox is fast enough to punish pikas moves and get his out quicker, its not a joke if you miss the chain grab or mess up

 

[Kenrawr]

Agreed with Kyosh. I lost a match to a fox a couple of weeks ago to a fox user with pika. Although I wasn't trying my hardest it was still obvious the match was kind of difficult. I had the fox up to 150-170 (sometimes around 120 when I didn't have to worry about getting usmashed) whenever I'd KO him as to him needing about 85-100 damage to KO me. I don't suck either.

Gallax-True, one list would be nice instead of having to refer back and forth though. But I guess I'll just throw in some lazy johns.

 

[Ussi]

Just posting to confirm that (as an Ike user) a 45:55 disadvantage is a reasonable estimate.

Light I'm here so don't worry about telling us about Ike

My opinions:

Bowser---------------------------- 60:40
Captain Falcon-------------------- 80:20
Diddy Kong------------------------ 40:60
Donkey Kong---------------------- 55:45
Falco------------------------------- 50:50
Fox--------------------------------- 80:20
Ganondorf--------------------------70:30
Ice Climbers------------------------45:55
Marth--------------------------------30:70
Pikachu------------------------------ headband is auto win
Olimar--------------------------------40:60
R.O.B.---------------------------------45:55
Samus--------------------------------65:35
Toon Link----------------------------50:50
Yoshi---------------------------------55:45

 

[Roller]

snake------- 55:45 (umm, we can CG him.. and other than that, I find the matchup to be pretty even. so ya.)
Falco-------- 40:60
Ness-------- 55:45 (sure he has absorbing. but honestly, if they are smart they wont absorb a jolt from an approaching pika unless they want to get their *** combo'd. and they are stunned and unable to do it as they are flying up, so if you are quick and smart with thunder you can still use it, just a little more conservatively.)
Mario------- 45:55 (he can jump off and cape your recovering QA screwing you over on recovery. and I think his projectile is a little faster.)
Ice Climbers-- 40:60 (don't get grabbed.)
Wario------- 50:50 (I've never really had many problems with wario unless the player themself was just flat out better than me.)
Jigglypuff---- 65:35 (as a jigglypuff player. it is NOT an easy matchup [for jiggs]. they have no projectiles. just shieldgrab them out of aerials and make use of t-jolt to force them to come to you.)

I think other than that I pretty much agree with galax.

 

[Pikabunz]

Ness-------- 55:45 (sure he has absorbing. but honestly, if they are smart they wont absorb a jolt from an approaching pika unless they want to get their *** combo'd. and they are stunned and unable to do it as they are flying up, so if you are quick and smart with thunder you can still use it, just a little more conservatively.)

Ness can cancel his down b as soon as he absorbs a jolt, so you can't really punish him for that. and if you try to combo Ness, he will nair you in the face. Also, Ness' fair beats all of Pika's aerials. 55:45 Ness

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lol prime, you are crazy
Pikachu is fast enough so that ness should never be able to recover. We can run into his PKT1 and stop it. That's a pretty big disadvantage.

 

[Pikabunz]

Ness can usually recover just fine with just his second jump and his awesome aerials.

 

[gallax]

alright fellow pika players. i have updated the ratios.

but guess what. you have another chance to dispute them. im giving you all till friday night to dispute them. if i find that no one really has any disputes, then they are going to be inputted into my secret thing for the boards.

 

[Pika_Cam]

I think the Olimar matchup is 40:60 for several reasons. Olimar can outcamp Pikachu. Pikachu has hardly any methods of approaching Olimar without getting pivot grabbed or gaining massive damage. Olimar can whistle through thunder. Yellow Pikmin. Pika is light and can be killed easily by Oli's smashes. Only edge I'd even give Pikachu against Olimar is recovery; that's if you can get him off the stage far enough to use that advantage.

 

[gallax]

well i think its 45:55. but esam says 50:50 and ussi says 40:60. they are both very knowledgeable, and i really respect what esam says. but pika cam, i know you to be a good player and to speak up only if you deem it important. so i will take your post with great care and consideration.

if anyone has anything to add please do.

 

[Roller]

hmmm. I think you were right the first time with tink and ROB.

Can someone clarify the falco match for me, because that is one of the characters that I do worst against. And I've always heard people agree with that. When did it switch to our favor and why?

Not to imply that it isn't correct; I must just be ignorant about something..

 

[Pika_Cam]

Maybe it's because you can get out of Falco's cg at about 30 percent?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

They can always dair-techchase grab again. But yeah, if you get them under the level, they are dead. They CANNOT recover. All you have to do is go out and uair them, but make sure they don't go up.

Here is a recent match against one of the best falco's in the state
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTkF5sFNTPc

 

[King~]

ummm ytf is marth a 30-70????

i agree with roller about mario, i believe its slightly in his favor


and why is fox a 25-75 thats just seems ridiculous and is giving to much credit to the chaingrab. cause now most fox know not to get grab and will not make it easy for you, fox is fast enough to punish you for messing up or trying to hard for the grab and will run away and spam lasers as you approach. its still in our favor but not that much.
65-35 our favor

and i believe vs diddy is 50-50 as long as you learn how to use bannas it is not as hard. we can combo diddy just like he can combo us.we can outspace with f-smash, almost all of pikas aerials grab bannas, glidetoss is good. ive watched it alot, and ive played it alot, it comes down to player skill.

so i say 50-50

 

[The Truth!]

I agree with yoshi on everything, haha. Marth is 65 at worst and that is our worst matchup.

MK should be lower, 60 sounds good even though I think its lower then that.

Diddy at higher levels of nana control is probably dead even, but for most of us probably slight diddy advantage.

And fox you can pwn without CG, but I still wouldnt say its 75 even with it.

Edit: regarding falco, if you think theyre going to illusion just nair or, even better, sh dair. Its also an amazing edgeguard in general.

 

[gallax]

so how would the community feel if the ratios changed to thi:

marth---35:65
fox--- 70:30
diddy---55:45

falco---50:50

i do not think we have an advantage. so right now im calling it 50:50. i did not see anything in that vid by esam convincing me of us having an advantage. i only saw the ability to predict the opponent.

and i would not mind moving the MK matchup to 60:40 if enough people agreed.

as for marth. if yo want me to move it then you need to convince me.

 

[Ussi]

I think we should make Ganon 70-30 if that 90% CG is true and possible to do with fthrow to the ledge > dthrow

 

[gallax]

well if this cg dthrow thing proves to be true then maybe these ratios are gonna change a bit.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, definitely. i confirmed snake and D3 CGs.

 

[KayLo!]

I second the DDD one and semi-confirmed the MK one, but I didn't get to test that one against a person. Not only that, but the DDD one is really easy and starts from 0%, soooo, yeah.

Granted, DDD is fat and lives a long time, but 90% is still about half his stock. And he's not fast enough to avoid getting grabbed to the degree that, say, Fox is.

I would still leave it at 60:40, though, for now.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Meta Knight--------------------------40:60 (35:65)
MK is getting easier and easier to fight once you learn how to counter his moves such as nado and shuttle loop.

If people think that learning these two moves will make their experience against MK easier, they are sadly mistaken. Up-b and tornado help, but the nair, tilts, and grabs are harder to deal with. Good MKs won't tornado that much, but they will shuttle loop. Watch out for shuttle loop OOS!!

 

[Ussi]

IMO I think DDD will be 65-35 cause 90% is 30% more than 60%.

If MK will shuttle loop, just bait it and use fair OoS cause fair ***** MK's glide attack and will hit through it.

 

[gallax]

i said that because thats pretty much the first thing you have to learn how to deal with before you can start to learn everything else.

 

[A New England Winter]

How about Wolf? That new CG is 0-115% on him apparently, which is cray-z damage. Cray-z. Would something like that warrant a bump him down to around "60-40 Pika"?

 

[gallax]

yeah its going to change. we are still testing though so no new ratios are going to be written until everything if FULLY tested.

 

[neji32]

Nvm ignore this