Matchup Discussion

[Varia31]

Alright, thanks @ Afro Smash and @ -_ellipsis_- , I'll see what I can do with your advice. I think sometimes I forget that the Screw Attack can get me out of jab locks or juggles. I use it as a surprise attack of defensive maneuver, but clearly I need to use it for other things. Again, much appreciated for the tips!

 

[Afro Smash]

Remember that you can tank so much of fox's hits it's ridiculous, and play keep away from all his ko moves rather easily. You can bomb out of his upair range, dodge his upsmash, and generally be unpredictable with your movement. Most of your damage output will come from poking with your bombs, tilts, grabs and throws, and the occasional unexpected cs. It's okay though because you only need to worry about getting Fox to about 80% before you can kill him. I have a replay against a pretty decent Fox that I saved that I'll try uploading later as an example.

Nair and Dair actually perfectly set up for running Up Smashes at high percents, he has some of the better kill set ups in this game

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Nair and Dair actually perfectly set up for running Up Smashes at high percents, he has some of the better kill set ups in this game

That's why you play keep away. I know that "don't get hit" is terrible advice, but falling nairs aren't very easy for Fox to pull off in neutral and he relies on some hard reads to do so.

Edit:

Here's that video I've recorded. This is pretty representative of what most of my Fox matches are like. He builds up my damage with his ftilt combos, pokes me with the smaller hits, but has a difficult time landing the kill moves. I was kind of laughing after watching that video after he got so frustrated missing like 6 upsmashes in a row

 

[Xygonn]

That's why you play keep away. I know that "don't get hit" is terrible advice, but falling nairs aren't very easy for Fox to pull off in neutral and he relies on some hard reads to do so.

Edit:

Here's that video I've recorded. This is pretty representative of what most of my Fox matches are like. He builds up my damage with his ftilt combos, pokes me with the smaller hits, but has a difficult time landing the kill moves. I was kind of laughing after watching that video after he got so frustrated missing like 6 upsmashes in a row

Ha! Any fox or falco that commits to a laser when samus has a full CS is asking for it

That said, we are in the matchup discussion and I have a new favorite least favorite guy to face. ROB. I think it was mostly my own impatience that led to my demise, but he was walling me out super hard with gyro and laser. Any specific advice for this MU?

FYI, I was able to beat him by switching to villager and pocketing his damn gyro. Not really great advice for Samus though.

 

[Afro Smash]

SH Airdodge approach is usually best, so you can avoid and potentially grab his gyro, hes also combo fodder so easy percents, and his recovery is fairly easy to gimp. We cant avoid his hoo hah til high percents and he has one of the best kill throws in the game, and grabs arent exactly difficult to get on samus. Also whenever you're charging watch out for his laser since it can usually catch you off guard and take away all your charge.

There is a kill set up for samus tho if you manage to grab the gyro and z drop it or throw it down and hit rob you can combo it in to CS.

But yh overall sh airdodge or dash shield approaches, and try to get kills with gimps off stage

 

[Xygonn]

SH Airdodge approach is usually best, so you can avoid and potentially grab his gyro, hes also combo fodder so easy percents, and his recovery is fairly easy to gimp. We cant avoid his hoo hah til high percents and he has one of the best kill throws in the game, and grabs arent exactly difficult to get on samus. Also whenever you're charging watch out for his laser since it can usually catch you off guard and take away all your charge.

There is a kill set up for samus tho if you manage to grab the gyro and z drop it or throw it down and hit rob you can combo it in to CS.

But yh overall sh airdodge or dash shield approaches, and try to get kills with gimps off stage

Yeah, I got some good combos in here and there. I definitely wasn't SH airdodge approaching him though. I'll have to work that into my game. I mostly use sh air dodge to retreat and to crossup. I haven't used it much to approach.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Ha! Any fox or falco that commits to a laser when samus has a full CS is asking for it

Yeah, the more I watch that match, the more I believe it was an input error. Either way, I had a few of my own input errors so yeah. That was a bad move.

 

[Macchiato]

@ n00b you want me to make us a match up chart?
I also think we should do weekly discussions like most match up discussion threads.

 

[Afro Smash]

Thoughts on the Bowser match up? My opponent here is about the first good Bowser I've come across, and it was a lot tougher than I was anticipating, usually winning about 50% of the games vs him maybe a bit less. Bowser's fast as hell, and this guy is great at Dash Shielding so he can close space quickly and safely, rendering my projectile game pretty much useless, without always having to resort with approaching from the air, and limiting the time I have to charge. Bowser's so quick in fact I was able to be dash grabbed off of some successful Zairs at low percents ;-;. Also obviously he's heavy as ****, so killing him is a pain, and on the contrary, if he manages to shield a Dash Attack, I think he has a guaranteed Bowser Bomb that kills Samus at like 80.

On the ledge I find to be particularly difficult, and its usually where Samus excels, Getting up or rolling up can be punished his Up B since it can cover so much ground, but get up and shield and he has a command grab, get up attack risks trading with his 2 hit down tilt (not favourable at all). Very read based and not comfortable at all.

Our Zair and Up B Oos can still make it difficult for him, and his recovery is easily punishable, so overall I'd say it's probably 50/50,
45/55 maybe, wanna hear your guys thoughts though.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

Bowser is horrifying to fight on the ground. Now it may just be who I'm fighting, but I find fighting Bowser much easier on stages with platforms as that could allow some Uair through the platforms, which is some free damage. Then again, I know I'm far from the best Samus...

 

[GameBird]

I was actually gonna post about Bowser

I actually find him a super fun matchup to fight against. Since we are both fairly heavy characters and he doesn't have obnoxiously fast moves (cough sonic fox marth cough) it always feels like every blow is calculated and meaningful. I actually started training a Bowser amiibo after going against a couple bowsers online and having a great time

 

[Boney]

So how come we don't have weekly match up threads. I feel that having all the info completely unorganized and unfocused.

Of course, we'd need a volunteer to help carry the discussions and pick the weekly character to discuss

 

[Tumultus]

The Olimar MU, as we know, is a bit troublematic. Like all shorties, he's hard to hit. The main problem we usually face is that his Pikmin act as an excellent shield to our CS... But there's a way around that.

Today I played an Olimar a bunch of times and in the middle of the match I learned something that's very helpful. Instead of trying to catch Olimar with CS when his Pikmin aren't in front of him, do the following: Short hop, and on your way down, shoot your CS. It's possible (and easy) to shoot in a way that ends up being too high for the Pikmin (therefore missing them) but still low enough to headshot Olimar.

It's an excellent bit of knowledge for an otherwise difficult match up. You're able to bypass the Pikmin every time if you shoot CS this way.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Star Fox has a bounty to settle with the Federation for blowing up planets.
vs

Click here to discuss this MU with us and settle that bounty you have with us.

 

[meleebrawler]

Star Fox has a bounty to settle with the Federation for blowing up planets.
vs

Click here to discuss this MU with us and settle that bounty you have with us.

Pretty sure Star Fox is guilty of blowing up a planet too.

 

[KayJay]

My problem with samus is that everyone just short hops against me

Any advice?

RAR, up B, SH AD u-air

Also I found out Full Jump fast fall Zair is amazing in the R.O.B. Matchup.

 

[Zeeloid]

UPDATED 11/01/14

Some of the threads are getting a little cluttered with questions about how to fight certain characters and getting a little off topic, so let's use this thread for matchup questions and answers.

If you have trouble in certain matchups, give us footage or whatever you think is problematic, and we'll try to share our experience/strategies to help you out. If you have a solid grasp on what works against certain characters too, please feel free to chime in.

Every once in a while I'll update the OP with categorized info, possibly make a guide that can be updated (or crowd-edited in a google doc or something) just so we have more organized resources here.


Bowser

Bowser Jr.

Captain Falcon

Charizard

Dark Pit

Diddy Kong

Donkey Kong

Dr. Mario

Duck Hunt

Falco

Fox

Ganondorf

Greninja

Ike

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Kirby

Link

Little Mac

Lucario

Lucina

Luigi

Mario

Marth

Mega Man

Meta Knight

Mewtwo

Mii Fighters

Mr. Game & Watch

Ness

Olimar

Pac-Man

Palutena

Peach

Pikachu

Pit

R.O.B.

Robin

Rosalina & Luma

Samus

Sheik

Shulk

Sonic

Toon Link

Villager

Wario

Wii Fit Trainer

Yoshi

Zelda

Zero Suit Samus

UPDATED 11/01/14

Some of the threads are getting a little cluttered with questions about how to fight certain characters and getting a little off topic, so let's use this thread for matchup questions and answers.

If you have trouble in certain matchups, give us footage or whatever you think is problematic, and we'll try to share our experience/strategies to help you out. If you have a solid grasp on what works against certain characters too, please feel free to chime in.

Every once in a while I'll update the OP with categorized info, possibly make a guide that can be updated (or crowd-edited in a google doc or something) just so we have more organized resources here.


Bowser

Bowser Jr.

Captain Falcon

Charizard

Dark Pit

Diddy Kong

Donkey Kong

Dr. Mario

Duck Hunt

Falco

Fox

Ganondorf

Greninja

Ike

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Kirby

Link

Little Mac

Lucario

Lucina

Luigi

Mario

Marth

Mega Man

Meta Knight

Mewtwo

Mii Fighters

Mr. Game & Watch

Ness

Olimar

Pac-Man

Palutena

Peach

Pikachu

Pit

R.O.B.

Robin

Rosalina & Luma


Samus

Sheik

Shulk

Sonic

Toon Link

Villager

Wario

Wii Fit Trainer

Yoshi

Zelda

Zero Suit Samus

what about Mario? He gives me the most trouble

 

[Afro Smash]

what about Mario? He gives me the most trouble

Here's some of my gameplay Vs. Mario, hopefully it can give you an idea of what to do. And we should be revamping this thread soon. Hopefully.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Sonic mains help?
I'm finding it hard to deal with his superior ground approach and airspeed, making Samus's situational aerials all the harder to land. As well as that, landing once in the air is quite difficult, is he just a hard counter?

 

[Zeeloid]

I'm decent with sonic so I can help u out if u'd like

 

[XxBlazingSpeedxX]

So I had extreme trouble against a really good charizard and Rob. The Charizard was able to pressure me pretty hard and get me to the edge where I really didn't know how to get back safely. The Rob also managed to outpace because of his gyro and beam. Any suggestions on how to play against these two?

 

[pinkdeaf1]

So I had extreme trouble against a really good charizard and Rob. The Charizard was able to pressure me pretty hard and get me to the edge where I really didn't know how to get back safely. The Rob also managed to outpace because of his gyro and beam. Any suggestions on how to play against these two?

Charizard pressured you to ledge? May I ask how?

I would assume to beat a charizard, we can spam zair for percent, and charge up charge shot in the down time the charizard gets pushed offstage. Zair from ledge and fade in/out depending on whether you hit or whiff, can help a bit by pushing the charizard from ledge or whittling down their shield, but this is only good for surprising the opponent. If they know how to punish that, then I'm not sure. I haven't been punished hard by any charizard from this, yet. Is ledge hop fair not working? I know it can be punished, but there are times when it can work in your favor. If they know how to punish it, then don't do it. If they shield really close to ledge, up b low enough from ledge to hit their shield. If you built up shield damage from ledge hop fairs or ledge hop zairs, then you might be able to break their shield (Don't forget to hold down as you come up so you don't snap back to ledge.

ROB is hard. I played with Chibo a long time ago when he went to santa clara, and I could not take a game off him. But I do know, ROB can outcamp us easily. Zair spacing is super important. Zair pressures them to stop charging top, and if we mix up our timing, we can catch them when they try to laser. Staying grounded is important for avoiding getting your landings hit by a top or laser. If you do have to jump, make sure you jump away in most cases, and if you have to, retreating to ledge is not the worst option. Missiles can pressure them to shield when they charge top. Only then should you use missiles. Charge shot gets stopped by the top, so don't shoot it without prior coverage. Shoot it when they shield or jump your missile. Shoot it as they recover. Shoot it to cover onstage landings. Missiles can entice these options, but ROB has a counter for every measure, so the pressure is on us to make up the difference.

Don't run too much in the match up either. Walking is surprisingly effective. It allows us to pull us shield to more quickly perfect shield lasers, and block tops. It also allows us to pressure with f-tilt, react to rolls better, and closes gaps in spacing more safely than jumping or running.

Steal the gyro if you can. And then run away and charge up charge shot. Throw it when they approach bad or as a punish. I think we can hit confirm a charge shot from gyro, but I'm not totally sure. The gyro can actually help us a lot in the matchup, so brush up on your item play if you can.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Has Samus vs. Villager been discussed? Honestly the MU feels pretty ok if you play very safe and space with Zair.
Zair > Lloid
I played a great Villager in bracket just the other day and wow does spacing Zair against Lloid work wonders. You get the damage are can easily avoid the rocket by jumping. They can't cover the jump as they normally because of Zair's second hits hitstun.

 

[JAZZ_]

Has Samus vs. Villager been discussed? Honestly the MU feels pretty ok if you play very safe and space with Zair.
Zair > Lloid
I played a great Villager in bracket just the other day and wow does spacing Zair against Lloid work wonders. You get the damage are can easily avoid the rocket by jumping. They can't cover the jump as they normally because of Zair's second hits hitstun.

Homing missile beat Lloid pretty handily and consistently. And its an excellent trap for villagers pocket, pocketed homing missile WILL NEVER beat a CS nor will it kill. So if he pockets HM just Fire CS when he goes to throw it away, he'll have to eat CS given he cant shield in time.

 

[Afro Smash]

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-match-up-discussion-thread-2-0.399987

New match up thread is here, this ones ded

 

[JAZZ_]

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-match-up-discussion-thread-2-0.399987

New match up thread is here, this ones ded

shouldn't this one be locked then?

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah probably

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

shouldn't this one be locked then?

Thanks for that advice. I was really scared to let him pocket anything so I just played super safe with mainly Zair and some bombs here and there. I'll remember that from now on though.

 

[Rawberry]

I'm having an annoying time fighting Mewtwo at the moment... I'm not getting completely thrashed but I am consistently losing to them (good ones at least) and it's - very annoyingly - because of throw spam. All of Mewtwo's melee attacks seem to be longer range than mine, and it's just a matter of time before I end up right in his face and am unable to avoid yet another throw. Is there something I can do to avoid these throws? No attacks seem fast enough and obviously roll is a waste of time... is the only answer to do a ground dodge?

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm having an annoying time fighting Mewtwo at the moment... I'm not getting completely thrashed but I am consistently losing to them (good ones at least) and it's - very annoyingly - because of throw spam. All of Mewtwo's melee attacks seem to be longer range than mine, and it's just a matter of time before I end up right in his face and am unable to avoid yet another throw. Is there something I can do to avoid these throws? No attacks seem fast enough and obviously roll is a waste of time... is the only answer to do a ground dodge?

Have you tried... jabbing? Should be faster than anything Mewtwo can throw in a boxing scenario.

 

[JAZZ_]

I'm having an annoying time fighting Mewtwo at the moment... I'm not getting completely thrashed but I am consistently losing to them (good ones at least) and it's - very annoyingly - because of throw spam. All of Mewtwo's melee attacks seem to be longer range than mine, and it's just a matter of time before I end up right in his face and am unable to avoid yet another throw. Is there something I can do to avoid these throws? No attacks seem fast enough and obviously roll is a waste of time... is the only answer to do a ground dodge?

Zair the crap outta mewtwo, lay bombs around you to keep his aggressive approaches at bay. jab 1 is a must. Jump out of charge when he approaches you and SHAD those reflects and dash attacks and follow with Bair. My best friend is a mewtwo main and im 90% successful in our totallity of 1v1s. The only times i lose is when i get obvious and sloppy with CS and reflect kills me. Hold in that full charge and use bombs to keep him defensive. Once he turns to defense Zair rips him apart.

 

[Rawberry]

First of all sorry for accidentally posting this in the old defunct thread, but thanks very much for the feedback!

Have you tried... jabbing? Should be faster than anything Mewtwo can throw in a boxing scenario.

Thanks, I sure have but it doesnt seem to help me vs throw spam

Zair the crap outta mewtwo, lay bombs around you to keep his aggressive approaches at bay. jab 1 is a must. Jump out of charge when he approaches you and SHAD those reflects and dash attacks and follow with Bair. My best friend is a mewtwo main and im 90% successful in our totallity of 1v1s. The only times i lose is when i get obvious and sloppy with CS and reflect kills me. Hold in that full charge and use bombs to keep him defensive. Once he turns to defense Zair rips him apart.

This is really good, thanks! I rely on bombs quite a lot, always have, but I definitely haven't been using zair enough. Annoyingly I havent found another Mewtwo to try this on but I've been pitted against Marth and Cloud today - Cloud particularly having the range. He wasn't actually that great of a Cloud, but zair and retreating bombs helped me avoid a lot of combos and to land some extra smashes/CS so cheers