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Matchup Discussion Week 24 - Luigi

Teran

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Week #24 Luigi



Moving swiftly on to Luigi, our green clad friend. Ironically while getting infinited by Dedede, we don't even get a CG on him at all. Add his aerial prowess into the mix and this one isn't quite as easy for our ace pilot as we'd hope. How do we conquer gamers' favourite closet homosexual?

Discuss!
 

faceholerope

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a good way to start off is to close in on the ground and SHL/jab > Grab > Dthrow > RBPG(buffered) >Dthrow > techchase Usmash. It's worked on many occasions for me and even if you can't land all of it, you can still get some decent damage.

Lasering a lot also helps shut down everything he has since it stuns him pretty well.

His spear has messed up hitboxes so trying to Dair him out of it might not be the best idea. Instead you might want to laser him when he gets close and then do a Dair while he's stunned.

If he gets you in the air, it's best to try to get to the ground ASAP. If you really insist on challenging him in the air then Dair or Bair will do decently.
His Up B is amazingly gimpable. Try to force him to use it to recover, it has a big sweetspot but if he's somewhere around a 45 degree downward angle from the corner of the stage, he will have to wait for the sweetspot to activate which is where yuo can very easily edgehog him.

Stay away from his Down B, very high priority, use lasers for that when you can or if you can place it, a Dair from above into his head.

If he gets you out of the stage, watch out for phantasm recoveries directly on to the stage, expecially if you have around 70% damage. He can just predict your trajectory, wait at the end of your path and sxweetspot Up B you as you land.
 
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It irritates me that luigi is better suited for aerial combat than falco is <_< And yet the grounded bird is better than a grounded wacky human. How does that work?

As normal force the approach with lasers, but be wary win up close when using lasers. You could just face a Down B or an Aerial approach.

First off, luigi has a lot of approaches. Best and probably the most difficult to punish is the aerial approaches as they start fast and have little lag. Ground approaches probably consist of DownB, fireballs and Dash attack (horrible approach method can DI out of it and punish).

Once you have the approach made try to just react and punish accordingly. Trying to go too offensive in this match up just doesn't work too well as falco cannot punish luigi in the air very well and most often then not gets hit instead. It's a nice effect that luigi cannot shieldgrab too well because of the whole sliding thing, so ftilt is nearly unpunishable.

And really do not ever try to combo luigi at low percents. It just doesn't work when facing aerials that come out so quickly. If anything try to shieldgrab any aerials you can. I think a Dthrow > jab > shieldgrab works wonders as most would luigi's would probably try to use an attack to punish you. After you do that enough times they might avoid attacking and you can mix it up more.

Don't really feel like covering anything else in the match-up in detail. Luigi combos falco quiet nicely and you cannot to easily because of his aerials. Edgeguarding luigi is like non-existant as recover is pretty good: Horizontal, vertical. Killing could be a choir for falco, but any attempts shouldn't be too punishable because of luigi's slide when taking a hit in the shield.

Overall I would say the match-up is pretty neutral. Maybe a 55-45 for someone, but not really sure.
 

Teran

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Luigi is a match that is quite different to others to say the least.
For one, his Nair does oh so many unspeakable things to our grab game.
You can try the pseudo CG with the dthrow to FF dair to regrab but most Luigis will be mashing A like a madman when at dthrow setup percents. Also shielding the Nair and punishing is a good option that will keep them guessing.

Dthrow to boost smash can be a nice trick at slightly higher percents as long as you have the sense to keep it fresh for the kill.

Luigi has lightning quick aerials with annoying hitboxes, add that to his aerial mobility and quite annoyingly it seems we've met our match. We have our jab that laughs at his CQC game. Ftilt is a spacing tool from the heavens, thanks to his hilariously low traction making a ftilt practically unpunishable. Upward angled ftilts can also prove a barrier to some of his aerial approaches every now and then.

It isn't too hard to force Luigi to play on the ground. Try and keep as much distance and spam SHDL to force him down. If you force him to the ground, his most likely method of approach is a downB approach. It has great priority and your best bet if you have the time and space is SHL to interrupt it. A lot of the time he'll use it from a distance where that's not a safe option, so shielding it is probably your best bet, as you can punish him for it after if he's close enough, and even if not, we can beat him at close quarters.

Luigi combos us quite nicely, and ironically, he can get quite a nice string out of his dthrow at low percents. Luigi has some powerful smashes. His fsmash, while perhaps lacking a bit in range, is surprisingly quick and packs a lot of punch. Yes, stay away from that. I would say his kills come more easily from edgeguarding, since Falco isn't known for having a Meta Knight-esque recovery. Oh and if we're both at high percents and Luigi PShields Falco's boost smash (example), he can Usmash OoS for a kill, so just be aware of that possibility.

If you knock Luigi a thousand miles offstage, if he hasn't hit the blastzone, chances are he'll make it back if he isn't interrupted. Typical patterns include Green Missile > Mach Tornado Cyclone recovery. If he doesn't make it back with Cyclone, he'll be forced into Shoryuken upB which is probably our best bet for gimping. Still, if he Green Missiles close enough to us, we can spike him right out of it. If he uses the Cyclone then try not to interrupt it unless you can be sure of hitting him out of it, since it has plenty of priority. A well placed spike can send him down to the murky depths, but make sure you get it right.

Whatever you do, don't let him predict Phantasm recoveries onstage. He'll just wait there and blast you with a monstrous smash if he predicts where you land correctly. Of course, if you can phantasm cancel, it might lead to you being able to laugh in his face, but sweetspotting is the way forward.

So to sum up (and perhaps add more later when I've had more coffee):

- Defensive Falco is a better mindset in this matchup
- Lasers are your friend at a distance. Be wary of using them at mid-close range.
- Don't take him on in the air, force him onto the ground.
- Our CQC > Luigi's
- Ftilt is a great tool in this matchup. If he shields it he'll slide as if he's walking on ice.
- Luigi will usually mash A after dthrow at low percents to escape expected followups. Shield and punish to keep him guessing later.
- Luigi has powerful smashes (especially Fsmash). Stay away from them.
- He combos us well out of dthrow at low percents. Don't get grabbed.
- Luigi has great range in his recovery, but can be gimped out of all of them if predicted correctly. Green Missile and upB are easier to punish, Cyclone can be spiked but it's pretty difficult. Lasers on Cyclone are better for free safe damage.
- If you really must take Luigi in the air, spaced Bairs are your safest bet.
- Don't be predictable with your recovery as always. Onstage he can smash you hard out of phantasm if he predicts where you land. Sweetspot, or Phantasm Cancel if you're confident it'll get pulled off correctly.
- Landmasters are a great tactic in this matchup, and will swing the matchup to 99:1 in your favour.

I say without a Landmaster, the ratio is around the 50:50 mark, because it's a somewhat momentum based matchup. It could swing either way depending on the turn of events, so for us the key is to keep defensive, not get grabbed at early %, force him on the ground, stay away from his smashes, and not get predictable in recovery. Stick to that basic mentality and you should be fine, adapting on the fly is your gift as a Falco main, and we can't tell you how to do that. ;D
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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only thing I say for falco is I have seen them camp...

Luigi's up tilt combos to 40 and up air and back air gimp Falco's recovery

Falco should stay away from platforms...or really any stage that gives aerial combat better...or vertical recoveries

Falco's best neutral here is either FD or Smashville
Worst neutral is probably Yoshi's since there is a platform and the stage is low
Battlefield is moderate...there are platforms but the stage has a high ceiling

For Luigi:
counterpicks
Haliberd
Frigate Orpheon
platform stages in general
Ban Jungle Japes and strike/Ban FD if there are 2 bans

For Falco
Strike Haliberd unless you can use snake....and Frigate
Counterpick FD, Japes, or any long stage

5-5 or 5.5-4.5 Luigi
 

King Funk

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Hahaha... Teran creates the thread, and literally 0wns it all by himself... Why doesn't he take care of all the match-ups at once? Things might go faster that way. ^^
 

Teran

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Hahaha... Teran creates the thread, and literally 0wns it all by himself... Why doesn't he take care of all the match-ups at once? Things might go faster that way. ^^
LOL.
I'm just trying to help man. Besides, I'm just good at writing stuff, but it's good to have loads of opinions and a greater collection of knowledge.

I mean chances are I've missed stuff out, which I have, like Luigi's Utilt combos.

Still, getting all these matchups done is a priority of mine. We're falling behind the other boards in terms of progress. I think everyone's dropping Falco or something (lamers).
 
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LOL.
I'm just trying to help man. Besides, I'm just good at writing stuff, but it's good to have loads of opinions and a greater collection of knowledge.

I mean chances are I've missed stuff out, which I have, like Luigi's Utilt combos.

Still, getting all these matchups done is a priority of mine. We're falling behind the other boards in terms of progress. I think everyone's dropping Falco or something (lamers).
Falling behind? I wouldn't know about that... Luigi's don't seem to have many dedicated threads up on match-ups so they only seem to be on 5. We are 2/3 the way done and could probably get to 30 by the end of may. If we did 2 per week like we are now we could get all of them done.
 

Teran

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Falling behind? I wouldn't know about that... Luigi's don't seem to have many dedicated threads up on match-ups so they only seem to be on 5. We are 2/3 the way done and could probably get to 30 by the end of may. If we did 2 per week like we are now we could get all of them done.
For a Top Tier character board, we are pretty chilled. (I like it like that actually)

You should see the zest that the Marth boards have for their character's metagame. LolMarthboards
 

hippiedude92

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[Luigi is a match that is quite different to others to say the least.
For one, his Nair does oh so many unspeakable things to our grab game.
You can try the pseudo CG with the dthrow to FF dair to regrab but most Luigis will be mashing A like a madman when at dthrow setup percents. Also shielding the Nair and punishing is a good option that will keep them guessing.

Dthrow to boost smash can be a nice trick at slightly higher percents as long as you have the sense to keep it fresh for the kill.

Luigi has lightning quick aerials with annoying hitboxes, add that to his aerial mobility and quite annoyingly it seems we've met our match. We have our jab that laughs at his CQC game. Ftilt is a spacing tool from the heavens, thanks to his hilariously low traction making a ftilt practically unpunishable. Upward angled ftilts can also prove a barrier to some of his aerial approaches every now and then.

It isn't too hard to force Luigi to play on the ground. Try and keep as much distance and spam SHDL to force him down. If you force him to the ground, his most likely method of approach is a downB approach. It has great priority and your best bet if you have the time and space is SHL to interrupt it. A lot of the time he'll use it from a distance where that's not a safe option, so shielding it is probably your best bet, as you can punish him for it after if he's close enough, and even if not, we can beat him at close quarters.

Luigi combos us quite nicely, and ironically, he can get quite a nice string out of his dthrow at low percents. Luigi has some powerful smashes. His fsmash, while perhaps lacking a bit in range, is surprisingly quick and packs a lot of punch. Yes, stay away from that. I would say his kills come more easily from edgeguarding, since Falco isn't known for having a Meta Knight-esque recovery. Oh and if we're both at high percents and Luigi PShields Falco's boost smash (example), he can Usmash OoS for a kill, so just be aware of that possibility.

If you knock Luigi a thousand miles offstage, if he hasn't hit the blastzone, chances are he'll make it back if he isn't interrupted. Typical patterns include Green Missile > Mach Tornado Cyclone recovery. If he doesn't make it back with Cyclone, he'll be forced into Shoryuken upB which is probably our best bet for gimping. Still, if he Green Missiles close enough to us, we can spike him right out of it. If he uses the Cyclone then try not to interrupt it unless you can be sure of hitting him out of it, since it has plenty of priority. A well placed spike can send him down to the murky depths, but make sure you get it right.

Whatever you do, don't let him predict Phantasm recoveries onstage. He'll just wait there and blast you with a monstrous smash if he predicts where you land correctly. Of course, if you can phantasm cancel, it might lead to you being able to laugh in his face, but sweetspotting is the way forward.

So to sum up (and perhaps add more later when I've had more coffee):

- Defensive Falco is a better mindset in this matchup I agree
- Lasers are your friend at a distance. Be wary of using them at mid-close range. Agreed as well, watchout at mid distance, luigis will find the right opening to rush in for a tornado.
- Don't take him on in the air, force him onto the ground. You can actually take him in the er.. only if your bair will **** in front of us, otherwise, stay ground game
- Our CQC > Luigi's what does CQC mean?
- Ftilt is a great tool in this matchup. If he shields it he'll slide as if he's walking on ice. Nah not completely, sliding dsmash out ranges this, also, since luigi tends to bend down (like a breakdance, i dont think he'll get hit by the ftilt unless your pointing it downwards) You'll have to space perfectly with your ftilt so you wont eat a OOS attack from luigi

- Luigi will usually mash A after dthrow at low percents to escape expected followups. Shield and punish to keep him guessing later. When luigi eats a dthrow, like you said, its a guessing game. Falco can keep going, look for a spike somewhere, or you can just dthrow to dair (iirc dair can be teched but not at low%s idk
- Luigi has powerful smashes (especially Fsmash). Stay away from them.dont get upb'd kthnxbai
- He combos us well out of dthrow at low percents. Don't get grabbed. dont get dair to nair'd either. once your in the air at 0%, your taking about 40% or so
- Luigi has great range in his recovery, but can be gimped out of all of them if predicted correctly. Green Missile and upB are easier to punish, Cyclone can be spiked but it's pretty difficult. Lasers on Cyclone are better for free safe damage.
- If you really must take Luigi in the air, spaced Bairs are your safest bet. Luigis bair will either outrange falcos bair, or trade off, but mostly trade off from my exp
- Don't be predictable with your recovery as always. Onstage he can smash you hard out of phantasm if he predicts where you land. Sweetspot, or Phantasm Cancel if you're confident it'll get pulled off correctly. it's really not that hard to see his recovery but nonetheless, can be gimped.
- Landmasters are a great tactic in this matchup, and will swing the matchup to 99:1 in your favour.

I say without a Landmaster, the ratio is around the 50:50 mark, because it's a somewhat momentum based matchup. It could swing either way depending on the turn of events, so for us the key is to keep defensive, not get grabbed at early %, force him on the ground, stay away from his smashes, and not get predictable in recovery. Stick to that basic mentality and you should be fine, adapting on the fly is your gift as a Falco main, and we can't tell you how to do that. ;D[/COLOR]
Okay im on a comp for now, but i can't guratteed to stay on the discussion, so mind you falco board, luigis usually are slow with the matchup discussion if you don't mind that is...

Few quick questions, what does Falco's CQC mean?
 

Teran

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CQC = Close Quarter Combat
 

hippiedude92

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Godamit my internet keeps logging me off, so i wasnt done with my post LOL. oh and thanks for the tidbit

Our CQC > Luigis
This, I don't completely agree unless you say stuff :D. Luigi is known to be dangerous when it comes to close combat. Close combat meaning at jab range. Luigi (MOST of his moveset) is made to be within his close combat range. Jab to upb is a obv example. Jabs in general is close combat. Though Falco keeps luigi in tact with long to mid range combat with his lasering and evasive sidebs.

From my personal experience (I play D1's falco, which is a beast, I got 3 stocked by his the first time i played him, so mind you, dont say i dont have exp against good falcos <333). Alot of the times, luigi and falco will be trading off hits. IIRC to luigi, falco is pretty light considering falco gets murdered by the killing ko options luigi has. But in general, (idk whose heavier, falco or luigi? Luigi is a mid-weight fighter who has really good momentum cancelling so he'll be living a while but falco idk him or not, you'll correct me on whose heavier cause im lazy lol) luigi > falco in koing.

As for offstage issues, it actually goes pretty even or slightly in either's favor depending on the situation. Luigi wins in terms of distance-wise, mostly vertically tho when it comes to recovery. The way luigis will be gimping is pretty harassing but takes alot of prediction imo. If falco goes for a sweetspot, luigi pretty much can edgehug> dair spike, or fireball to dair, or a rising nair, or do a wall of pain on falco., or stage spike. But this obv takes reading so yeah/
 

Teran

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Oh yeah Luigi is heavier than Falco and KOs earlier there is no question.

What I meant is our jab is faster than Luigi's, so if we're going for a trade of hits, we'll usually win out. We also have our ftilt and utilt, which are pretty quick, but our jab comes out on frame 2 (I like to make a note of this a lot because I think Falcos need to abuse their jab more often.)
Since our playstyle is that of a defensive nature against Luigi, our main goal is to shut him down and get safe damage rather than go in eagerly for the kill.

That's where I get my statement of us having a better CQC game.

If you disagree then by all means give me a reason, I mean, that IS the whole purpose of this thread. :D
 

hippiedude92

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**** internet keep logging me off, ill never finish a wall of text LOL.

Anyways, I know you guys jab frame is 2. Ours is as well comes out at frame 2 as well. They just pretty much clank, so if a falco is gonna jab and luigi gonna jab, they're pretty much clanking until they're out of range which is pretty funny imo.

heres our frame data if u dont believe me :) http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652


I usually play as Falco for fun because his jab game is soooo cruel to people since I honestly love to spam his jab as if hes a luigi. So I know what your talking about hehe.

The main threat from Falco in CQC (whee xD), is his Fsmash. Its kills pretty decent, it has WTF GTFO ground range, and pretty much outranges majority of luigis moves. Other then that, Imo, i dont see utilt much of a threat like crazy since you'll get like 10%-25%? unless luigi's nair breaks out lol. Ftilt, i've never seen a falco use a ftilt in my life nor have i used it myself so iunno. you have any vids of him using a good usage of ftilt btw?

But besides that, it's either dead even in CQC, or slightly luigi's favor which it is IMO. you also forgot to put, you should be looking for a gimp since falco has completely murdering tools to gimp luigi if it's done right
 

hippiedude92

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It looks ok... the vid was pretty watching since all i see is massive lasering, spotdodging, and jumping around LOL.. but @ 1:15 at the vid, pretty ok nice usage, it actually works similar to luigi's ftilt since their nearly identical but falcos is better overall. Although Sk92 shoulda gtfo'd when his inv frames were gone tho.

pretty much, fsmash, some ftilts, maybe a few utilts, massive and SMART evasive-ness along with lasering are pretty much threats to me lol. but i still think it would go even in CQC or slightly in luigis favor imooz
 

Teran

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but i still think it would go even in CQC or slightly in luigis favor imooz
Everything is in favour of our main lol.
Sometimes it's just impossible to reach an agreement. :laugh:
 

hippiedude92

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just go even then LOL. why do u think luigis matchups are more of 50:50s? most of his matchups are 5/5 in the whole mid-tier list LMFAO.

edit : ok put it this way, CQC = even, air game = luigi ground game = falco gimping/edgeguard = even IMO. Still decent debateable but its not really deep.
 

Teran

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I think it's in Falco's favour on FD, even on SV, in Luigi's favour on BF.

Your CPs should be for restrictive platformed stages. (Lol Brinstar)

Our CP should be somewhere with loads of camping space or just our standard Japes.

So yeah I think the matchup is really stage reliant lol.
 

hippiedude92

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I think it's in Falco's favour on FD, even on SV, in Luigi's favour on BF.

Your CPs should be for restrictive platformed stages. (Lol Brinstar)

Our CP should be somewhere with loads of camping space or just our standard Japes.

So yeah I think the matchup is really stage reliant lol.
LOL yeah it really is man. It usually boils down to a stage if its always a 5/5.

Obv Falco will want japes (**** that stage srsly, sideb spam anyone ? LMAO) 55:45 or 6/4 on japes. Flat stages = 5/5 or 55:45 falco imo.

As for yoshis island = any input? I dont like this stage in general. the slopes, the platforms that rise outta no where (lol i got lucky and landed one after getting spiked)

Lylat cruise = no one really plays this stage tbh LOL. crawling/tilting avoids some lazer spamming. The tilting of the stage screws our recoveries up in general. The platforms are pretty decently aligned for aerial use. 5/5 imo.

Bf = 55:45 luigi imo. the platforms allows some breathing room from lasering, luigi can pressure here like mad man with platforms.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for the cp stages, on brinstar, maybe 55:45 or 6/4 luigi? Luigi kills Falco INSANELY early <3. The liquid walls prevent some laser spam momentiarly. the stage in general is small, which prevents pretty falco running away to camp hehe xD 55:45 luigi or 6/4 luigi on brinstar. Your pick :)
 

Teran

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Yeah I'd agree with your ratios on the different stages.

As for Yoshi's I'd put that at 55:45 Luigi. Maybe it's a personal thing, but the cramped feel, the slight slope and the weird upper platform don't really help my Falco.

I think the platform and tighter space give Luigi the upper hand on Yoshi's. I've never been keen on Yoshi's Island at all.

Oh I'd easily go for 60:40 Luigi on Brinstar. =\
 

hippiedude92

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Yeah i agree. I just hate YI and LC in general. They suck so much lol.

Quick run down:

Matchup = 5/5

Falco needs to abuse on

-Lasering, camping, controlling luigi's approach
- Stay grounded. Keep him at bay at ftilt range. Try best not to go CQC with luigi.
- Pick a flat stage where you can breath and camp the most. Upper adv goes to Falco in these parts.
- You'll be looking for more of a gimp ko, rather than a ko itself. Bair/Dair spikes is what you want. but if you must and if he's at a good %, spaced Fsmashs is what you want..




Luigi needs to abuse on

-Looking a way to approach. Approaching will be problem. Powershielding/Fireballing/ most of all, looking for a opening to rush in with tornado.
- Once your inside, begin the ****. Luigi can pretty much deal around 40%~ or slightly more, if he manages to get Falco in the air.
-Air game is what we want. We wreck him there every where.
- The jab game is pretty tight. We go pretty dead even, but Falco still dies at early % from a shoryuken. Jab upb is yummy in my tummy.
- We'll need to be looking for a ko with our multitude of options, if not, go for a gimp.

i cant really list much so see if it's good so far or any adds on
 

Teran

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Sounds fine by me.

Now I'll just wait on the Falco Counsel to come in and speak their minds, and see if they have anything to add or object to before we wrap this up.

Thanks for your input man it was really helpful. Don't forget about this thread when it comes to discussing us over at your board, and don't hesitate to call on us. ;D
 

hippiedude92

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Lol i was gonna say that, since it's been only me and you inputting stuff but that's ok. Pretty sure they'll agree to a 5/5 anyways. i'll be back after i get a keyboard >.>. But nice clean, fast, flawless discussion.
 

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Columbus, GA
Luigi can kill you at 60-70 with Fsmash if you DI towards him or he can shoryuken you for the kill, he can rack fast damage and after that you're already in killing percentage. There's really no way for Luigi to get in. If he air dodges towards you then you have a choice of running away or punish. If Luigi is holding up his shield, then you can Usmash or Fsmash without being punished since he gets pushed so far back(it can be an attempt at pressuring). I'd definitely take Luigi to flat stages with little to no platforms. If Luigi ever gets close expect something like a Dsmash or a jab(at close percentages) and I almost forgot to mention that Luigi is able to spam the Fsmash with no lag if he aims it upwards. Also, if Luigi does try to approach with an aerial, he'll just eat a Nair or Dair OoS =DDD
 

kirbywizard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
6,713
Location
Napa, California . . . .Grapes For Miles
3DS FC
0989-1847-5768
I always arrive late to these match ups, now I dont get to help :luigi2:
If falco aimed his lazer a little higher like fox then we wouldnt have to approach you.
Fox lazer spam goes high enough for use to just crawl under it. Also fun fact if Luigi roles behind an a opponent when the opponent is already right next to the edge. Luigi can do a nice sweet spot up B immediately.
 
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