Match-up re-discussions

[~ Gheb ~]

So we finally have all match-up's covered
Now it's time to rediscuss some of them.

Major advantages:

Ganon
Jiggs

Advantages:

Diddy
Olimar
Zelda
Zamus
Luigi
Bowser
Ike
Lucas
Mario
Ivysaur
Yoshi
Sonic
Link
Falcon

Neutral:

Snake
Wario
Lucario
DK
Pikachu
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Pit
Toon Link
Fox
Peach
Ness
Squirtle
Charizard
Pokemon Trainer

Disadvantages:

King Dedede
Mr Game And Watch
ROB
Marth
Sheik
Sheik + Zelda

Major Disadvantages:

Meta Knight
Falco


Possible changes:

Marth: 40:60 -> 45:55 (Marth boards agree...it's actually confirmed)
GnW: 40:60 -> 45:55 ???
Mario: 60:40 -> 50:50 ???

-> These are all imo, so feel free to post your opinions...are there other changes necesary

 

[Shady Penguin]

I seriously think Bowser is a neutral match-up.

Well-timed whirling fortresses can really cut down on spam, and he can punish most all of Wolf's moves out of his shield with a jab, tilt, grab, or fortress (His forward-b has nearly twice as much range as it looks to have).

Bowser's fire breath is a very threatening edge-guarding tool against Wolf since his recovery options are so stiff and predictable. One wrong move into it, and you can end up taking around 30 damage before being able to break free. It is also very bad for Wolf because it can often only be avoided by landing on the stage where Bowser can punish his landing lag with a powerful attack (Bowser's Dsmash comes out fast enough and can kill you rather early).

I have a good amount of personal experience with this match-up, and some other Wolfs wanting it as 50:50 while Bowser is such an obscure competitive character says something.

As for the G&W match-up, I think it's better off where it currently is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK, we can do Bowser again, if you like but I think we should do top/high tiers first

 

[castorpollux]

....there's no way it's 50:50 against Bowser.

Can you immagine a bowser, no matter how good he is with him, winning half his matches against Germ?

yeah... didn't think so

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I agree with Shady Penguin about the bowser part. We can force him to approach with the blaster but all that really does is tickle him. He can shield into a ton of stuff against wolf and the fire breath can mean a ton of damage if he edgeguards you with it(you cant side-b through the fire you get stuck in it if you try). If he times his side-B right he can grab your b-air, f-smash and pretty much any other physical attack.

 

[castorpollux]

umm in these match-up threads, are we matching wolf's metagame vs bowser's metagame? or average wolf vs average bowser?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I think players of equal skill of any given skill level(Not like germ vs a random scrub or some other god player vs a wolf noob). Thats what I assume at least.

 

[castorpollux]

I think players of equal skill of any given skill level(Not like germ vs a random scrub or some other god player vs a wolf noob). Thats what I assume at least.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. If that's the case, then we can set a level 9 computer wolf vs level 9 computer bowser and see which one wins more.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Where is Peach >:3

 

[Fugu15]

How is ice climbers an even matchup for wolf?

The only reason it's even is cause so few people are actually good with IC, but in this matchup, one grab and your dead every single time.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Where is Peach >:3

Gheb you forgot peach.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK

And about the IC thing. We already done that long ago. Whoever missed that...it's your own fault ;(

 

[Ishiey]

Lol the old matchup threads are around, search for them and see how everything holds up. I'm in favor of the marth change though, it's very close.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

We should discuss good secondary characters for wolf next now that weve done most of the matchups. Like if someone picks falco who would be good to use against their falco and stuff like that. Like if wolf is disadvantaged vs certain characters what would be a good character to main alongside wolf to make up for wolfs weaknesses.

 

[Fugu15]

I did not miss the IC discussion, but as far as I remember, this was your conclusion, which was not very conclusive. =)

I just like to remind you, that there's still no agreement here. Unless we agree on a cetain ratio, I'll do the average, which is 50:50

I think this is a hard matchup to discuss, since so few players are very good IC's and bad Ice Climbers get torn apart by wolf. If you look at the Germ vs Fly Amanita video on Axis, the Ice Climbers should have beat him pretty bad, but they messed up numerous chances to chain spike.

 

[Shady Penguin]

....there's no way it's 50:50 against Bowser.

Can you immagine a bowser, no matter how good he is with him, winning half his matches against Germ?

yeah... didn't think so

If the Bowser was very good, I could easily imagine that actually (I have watched Germ play btw).

As for Sessh, MK is obviously the best secondary for Wolf if match-ups are the only factors considered.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I think we should redo Lucario. Wolf has a slight advantage, from my experience. 55:45 methinks.

 

[castorpollux]

If the Bowser was very good, I could easily imagine that actually (I have watched Germ play btw).

umm can you name a bowser player who would beat germ 50% of the time? You can't say there is theoretically a bowser somewhere who can beat germ.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We should decide which we're gonna rediscuss, dudes -_-

 

[Collective of Bears]

We should decide which we're gonna rediscuss, dudes -_-

Bowser, duh. Then we'll do Lucario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean important ones -_-

(OK Lucarios is important but you should check the Discussion first)

 

[Shady Penguin]

umm can you name a bowser player who would beat germ 50% of the time? You can't say there is theoretically a bowser somewhere who can beat germ.

That's like saying Marth in Melee has a positive match-up against everyone unless somebody can beat M2K half the time.

When there's so few Bowser players (he hardly exists on the tourney scene) compared to Wolf players, the best Wolf player is obviously bound to beat the best Bowser over half the time.

 

[Kinzer]

Hey, congradulations on being the (second?) board to get all their matchups done.

...Also Gheb is sexy.

 

[castorpollux]

That's like saying Marth in Melee has a positive match-up against everyone unless somebody can beat M2K half the time.

When there's so few Bowser players (he hardly exists on the tourney scene) compared to Wolf players, the best Wolf player is obviously bound to beat the best Bowser over half the time.

So i don't understand how you can argue that the match up is 50/50 then. How can you say the match up is 50/50 if Wolf beats boswer on the noob level, intermediate level, and the highest level. I don't see how else we can really measure a match-up if that isn't good enough.

 

[Shady Penguin]

So i don't understand how you can argue that the match up is 50/50 then. How can you say the match up is 50/50 if Wolf beats boswer on the noob level, intermediate level, and the highest level. I don't see how else we can really measure a match-up if that isn't good enough.

Who ever said anything about the noob and intermediate level? You're simply talking about Germ who is on the highest level.

Seeing how the discussion is simply about what the characters can do against each other, Germ shouldn't even be brought up unless he has displayed strategies or techniques that are effective against Bowser.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ShadyPenguin is right. If you want to add somethingto Bowser you can still post it in the original match-up discussion. It's not so old

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Hey, congradulations on being the (second?) board to get all their matchups done.

...Also Gheb is sexy.

3rd behind Marth and Kirby Boards.


I don't really care what we re-do, I haven't really participated much in these because I don't have enough Wolf matchup experience. Lucario is really important, #7 on tier list iirc.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lucario isn't #7. He's 9 (Marth =7, Wario = 8)

But I think we covered this one...I don't think we missed anything

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My bad. But yeah I meant Ankoku's thread. I hate the SBR tier list, it sucks.

 

[Collective of Bears]

My bad. But yeah I meant Ankoku's thread. I hate the SBR tier list, it sucks.

tires don exits in Brawl. Only Meta Knight.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OK. That's great. That was funny the first 50 times, now it's getting annoying, seriously guys... And MK has his own tier, or he should, but there are other tiers. And I know you are being sarcastic. I chose not to respond in that way though.

 

[teekay]

I still strongly disagree that Snake is a neutral matchup for Wolf, but I already had this debate with Gheb and ultimately I'm not too bothered about it. 60 40 Snake's favor imo, but whateva.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There are some very good players, who say it's in Wolfs favour <_< (teh_spamerer)

 

[Ishiey]

If it is, can't be by much. Certain things just come down to individual players, and I think wolf vs snake is one of those matches.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Most ppl agree with you but teekay seems to think otherwise :\

 

[teekay]

heaven forbid I disagree. X_x

 

[ArcPoint]

I've just given up caring about what the board discusses/thinks about the matchups.

 

[castorpollux]

I've just given up caring about what the board discusses/thinks about the matchups.

I gave up after bowser was deemed evenly matched with wolf.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Bowser is evenly matched with Wolf? In that case I never started caring to begin with.

 

[castorpollux]

Bowser is evenly matched with Wolf? In that case I never started caring to begin with.

Yeah... tell me about it. There must be a lot of really really bad wolf players out there if that's the general consensus.