Match Up Export: Wario

[Sage JoWii]

Om nom nom~!

DISCUSS!

 

[Lord Chair]

Bite beats fsmash, suck on that.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Oh we'll inhale it but cute pink ball of awesome beats mustached rapist any day.

 

[jiovanni007]

Bite beats fsmash, suck on that.

Upsmash beat bite, kills from 120% noob.

 

[fromundaman]

What truly insightful posts...


I don't know this MU well enough to give too detailed advice though. Fart, Fsmash and Uair are amazing kill moves though, and tend to kill Kirby early, whereas Kirby has trouble killing Wario. Both characters combo each other well.
Kirby can gimp Wario, but then, it's entirely possible I only think that because I haven't played the MU enough.
I personally hate bite on Kirby, but that might just be me.

Yeah, not sure really what to say on this MU, but I'd say Wario definitely has the advantage. He has survivability, superior killing power, great mobility, and combos about as well as we do.
Take my opinion with a grain of salt though, as I really have very little experience in this MU.

 

[Kappy]

I've got a lot of experience in this match-up!

Bair cuts through all of Wario's aerials. Unless Kirby gets a grab or sees the chance for a Uair/Dair, Kirby should be using Bair and Bair only. Also, all of Wario's aerials can be shield-grabbed.

Wario can SDI out of the Uair, but I find myself connecting a Bair after the SDI'd Uair. I'm not sure if it works, but it's a nice mix-up against Wario.

As fromundaman said, Wario ***** Kirby in killing potential. Fsmash, Uair, and Fart all destroy Kirby, with Fsmash and Uair killing around 100%, and Fart around 60%. Kirby has simply Bair (which won't kill until around 170%), and Fsmash (which will kill around 130%).

Bite is good for a grabby Kirby, but it's very punishable, and Kirby can go through it like some characters can go through Inhale. Inhale beats Bite if Kirby is Inhaling from above, otherwise Bite takes precedence.

Kirby van gimp wario pretty easily if Wario doesn't have his bike handy. And even if he does, Dair forces him off of his bike.

I find Wario to be one of the easier characters to Swallowcide, but don't be hasty with it or Wario will probably Fart through it.

Oh, and Kirby should try and abuse the bike when using Fsmash. It gives him some extra strong hitbox frames, so try and abuse it whenever possible!

While I personally think it's a slight disadvantage (55-45) in Wario's favor, I've been told by some Wario's that it's even due to how easily Kirby's Bair stops his approach.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I see that this thread isn't progressing fast enough!!

Let's see...

BAir a lot.

Don't lose the lead! If you thought ROB can camp you obviously haven't seen a Wario.

Grab combos aren't that effective I don't think because Wario has some brilliant SDI and DI capabilities.

His recovery his amazing in my opinion. Jump>Bike>bikeJump>UpB or Fart.

Watch out for his DACUS!

His FSmash is superarmored and can 'combo' into itself. It' s like GW's DSmash which can be used one right after the other.

Take his power if you want because bite is amazing but you'll lose any Kirbicides that might be present.

 

[fromundaman]

Personally I prefer inhale.


Anyway, with an AD and aerial mobility as good as Wario's, will Bair be as useful as you make it seem? Also, I believe his Ftilt outranges it. The one time I played Blue Rogue he told me that move ***** in that MU since it outranges most, if not all, my options.

 

[Kappy]

Yes, Bair is as good as it seems. Even the weak hitbox stops Wario's aerials in the air. And You can shield-grab Ftilt easily. I'm note sure if Bair can stop it, but Bair is definitely faster than Ftilt by at least few frames, so if you're trying to Bair through an Ftilt, it'll stop you, but if you're using Bair at the same time he busts out Ftilt, I see Bair winning.

To be honest, the MU calls for both characters to camp the other one out if they have the percentage/stock lead. And it's difficult for both characters to approach each other. WHat really makes it Wario's advantage is his absurd killing power and KO options, plus a better recovery than Kirby's.

 

[jiovanni007]

Personally I prefer inhale.


Anyway, with an AD and aerial mobility as good as Wario's, will Bair be as useful as you make it seem? Also, I believe his Ftilt outranges it. The one time I played Blue Rogue he told me that move ***** in that MU since it outranges most, if not all, my options.

This. You have to realize that Wario is a bait and punish character and so are we. I do have a lot of experience in this MU and I would say Kirby is at the disadvantage. The basic disadvantages are Wario kills earlier, lives longer, and can camp us out if he gets ahead.

On the subject of bair, if Wario baits it, he'll just AD past it and counter accordingly once on the ground. In the air we'll beat wario most of the time with the exception of being directly above him. if he goes for a bair, which isn't often we can usually get an attack off first. The biggest mistake you can make in this match is trying to ***** out bair. It'll make you lose really fast. Instead play smart and think of safer options like utilt and dtilt. Both are amazing in this match. If you make an empty jump and he ADs past it, go directly into a dtilt until you shield poke him. Or maybe a SH dair after the AD.

Another thing to get out of your mind is shieldgrabbing. Its not gonna happen very often. With Wario's mobility he can easily weave in and out of our grab range unscathed (barring a PS of course). If you do manage to grab him I usually go for a fthrow as unorthodox as it sounds, it kinda forces Wario's options for a few seconds and can sometimes actually lead to a follow up if you can follow his DI.

Inhale is amazing in this match-up and I really learned this trick from playing against a friend of mine who plays wario. Inhale is great at punishing spotdodges and ADs. Wario loves to spotdodge and AD. so inhale when he does for free damage. I would honestly keep inhale since bite obviously has range problems, just spit him and go for a follow up. Keep in mind that if he does go for a bite, usmash will beat it unless you're right in his face. If Kirby's feet hit and body doesn't then it'll work. Also remember that there is a little bit of lag so feel free to charge it until you hear the 'CHINK' sound of him closing his mouth.

Gimping Wario is **** near impossible. With DI and without the bike he can still double jump and drift out of harm's way. If you do catch him by surprise then dair away especially if the bike is onstage because then he has no chance of recovery. Grab release double dair is also a good option by the edge and for some reason people shieldcamp more near the edge so getting a grab is easier there than anywhere else on the stage. If there are no platforms you can grab release aerial hammer (iirc never really tried it) as well.

Just remeber that wario is gonna try to control the pace of this match so try to slow it down because Kirby has a little difficulty moving at Wario's pace.

 

[Lord Chair]

Watch out for his DACUS!

His FSmash is superarmored and can 'combo' into itself. It' s like GW's DSmash which can be used one right after the other.

Oh wow no, just no.

 

[Sage JoWii]

^

It's not?

 

[jiovanni007]

Personally I prefer inhale.


Anyway, with an AD and aerial mobility as good as Wario's, will Bair be as useful as you make it seem? Also, I believe his Ftilt outranges it. The one time I played Blue Rogue he told me that move ***** in that MU since it outranges most, if not all, my options.

You're gonna find dair way more useful in this matchup than bair by far. Wario can AD through bair and counter it as well. Dair has enough frames to be able to outlast the AD and deal damage as soon as he lands. Ftilt and grab should be the only followups though. Ftilt isn't guaranteed but its more than likely able to connect unless the Wario SDI's dair perfectly. Grab is just a mix up and nets more damage since you can dthrow after. Be wary about spamming grab though since jab will beat it unless the Wario has terribad di and is like right next to you after the dair is over. Ftilt is safer and much more often than not gonna work but don't be afraid to grab every now and then since shieldcamping is a habit when pressured in close quarters.

 

[Starwarrior27]

Wow, if I may interject my opinion, this matchup might actually be one of Kirby's most intersting, simply because it is almost as if he is fighting himself with better KO moves. Actually, a great deal is similar between Wario and Kirby, they both perfer to approach aerially, they have a sort of "grab" that has super armor and can interrupt attacks, and they both have very good recoveries.

First of all, no gimping is really going to be seen in the match whatsoever. As Jiovanni said, unless the Wario cannot use his bike, he cannot be gimped, and if he cannot use his bike, he is basically dead anyways. Instead any KOs will be seen because of the character's KO moves. For Wario, there is Uair, Fsmash, and Fart (which can all KO at 100%) being his very best and most expected KO moves. On the other hand Kirby has Fsmash and hammer (which KO at ~120%), and Bair (which KOs much later -- ~160%). Unlike Wario, Kirby has to damage Wario more to land a KO.

There has also been a great deal of talk about using Bair or Dair. While both sides have given arguments for the merits of using these moves, we should acknowledge that both should be used. Kappy, while Bair is great at eating through Wario's other aerials (as it has a bigger range), it is easily air dodged and can then be punished with almost whatever move Wario wants. Jiovanni, while Dair can outlast Wario's air dodge and outrange his Uair, if it is shielded, the chances that it will be punished are incredibly high. Overally, the choice between Dair and Bair has to be decided upon they way in which Wario plays. If he uses aerials to approach, Bair is the better option, but if the Wario player instead likes to SHAD, Dair is a much better choice.

With both characters being quite similar, the stages to select can be difficult to see. For Kirby, the best stage choice would be those with close blast zones, thereby equalizing the KO playing field slightly more. Therefore, Brinstar and Green Greens would be the best stages in this situation. Otherwise, Wario and Kirby seem fairly equal on neutrual stages and most other counterpick stages.

Overall, it seems that, with two very similar characters, a small difference can sway the matchup into the favored character. For this matchup, it looks like Wario has the advantage. If anything, this appears to be slightly favored towards Wario ranging from 55:45 to 60:40. Nevertheless, this is still an interesting matchup to consider.

 

[fromundaman]

Every time I have played a Wario of similar skill (AKA Not Blue Rogue since he ***** me), I tend to have the lead most of the game, then lose the match due to that gay waft. Seriously hate that move.

 

[jiovanni007]

Wow, if I may interject my opinion, this matchup might actually be one of Kirby's most intersting, simply because it is almost as if he is fighting himself with better KO moves. Actually, a great deal is similar between Wario and Kirby, they both perfer to approach aerially, they have a sort of "grab" that has super armor and can interrupt attacks, and they both have very good recoveries.

First of all, no gimping is really going to be seen in the match whatsoever. As Jiovanni said, unless the Wario cannot use his bike, he cannot be gimped, and if he cannot use his bike, he is basically dead anyways. Instead any KOs will be seen because of the character's KO moves. For Wario, there is Uair, Fsmash, and Fart (which can all KO at 100%) being his very best and most expected KO moves. On the other hand Kirby has Fsmash and hammer (which KO at ~120%), and Bair (which KOs much later -- ~160%). Unlike Wario, Kirby has to damage Wario more to land a KO.

There has also been a great deal of talk about using Bair or Dair. While both sides have given arguments for the merits of using these moves, we should acknowledge that both should be used. Kappy, while Bair is great at eating through Wario's other aerials (as it has a bigger range), it is easily air dodged and can then be punished with almost whatever move Wario wants. Jiovanni, while Dair can outlast Wario's air dodge and outrange his Uair, if it is shielded, the chances that it will be punished are incredibly high. Overally, the choice between Dair and Bair has to be decided upon they way in which Wario plays. If he uses aerials to approach, Bair is the better option, but if the Wario player instead likes to SHAD, Dair is a much better choice.

With both characters being quite similar, the stages to select can be difficult to see. For Kirby, the best stage choice would be those with close blast zones, thereby equalizing the KO playing field slightly more. Therefore, Brinstar and Green Greens would be the best stages in this situation. Otherwise, Wario and Kirby seem fairly equal on neutrual stages and most other counterpick stages.

Overall, it seems that, with two very similar characters, a small difference can sway the matchup into the favored character. For this matchup, it looks like Wario has the advantage. If anything, this appears to be slightly favored towards Wario ranging from 55:45 to 60:40. Nevertheless, this is still an interesting matchup to consider.

Dair actually loses to uair, that hitbox is retarted. You left out usmash in Kirby's kill list. Vertical knockback + expectant DI = early kill. Don't forget about Kirby's utilt either, it covers bair very well for approaches. As for dair that's mainly meant for a punisher to spot and air dodges. Still 60-40 Wario though...CPs?

 

[fromundaman]

Not really MU dependent, but yeah, Dair OoS is awesome. Punishes those people who spotdodge expecting a shieldgrab, and for those who just shield, ***** the **** out of it then shieldpokes with the last hit.

I'd say don't go Brinstar in this MU ever. Any really big stage isn't too great either since he'll time you out.
PS1 isn't a bad place to take him IMO, but I hear he does well there too so IDK. Maybe Frigate or Cruise?

 

[Delta Z]

From my (limited) experience with Wario, I'm starting to lean more towards this matchup being 50-50. Wario's biggest problem is his general lack of range, and Kirby has better range than he usually gets credit for. I can't remember where exactly I heard it, but someone said that Bair really shuts down Wario, and I can see how it would. Getting a good read gets Kirby an even bigger advantage when it lets him keep Wario at a distance.

As for stages, I got nothing. Wario's mobility it good enough for RC's scrolling to not be a problem. And how would Frigate be that big of an advantage?

 

[fromundaman]

Bair shuts down a Wario who doesn't know the MU. Ftilt beats it every time if I remember correctly. Also, his mobility is good enough that he can get around it without too much trouble.

 

[Sage JoWii]

FTilt is really useful in this match up as well. Same with Utilt.

O_o DSmash is kinda nifty as well since it'll last longer than a spotdodge.

 

[Delta Z]

Ours or theirs?

 

[Sage JoWii]

Both but ours isn't as punishable.

 

[Kewkky]

I have a question.

Why has no one said anything about our utilt (except JoWii in like, the last few posts. Props man!)? I expected this to be like, one of the first bits of information written here. Our utilt beats his aerials because ALL of his aerials are jointed. AND we can utilt>bair if it connects. Once we get a lead, we just have to turn our backs to Wario, and wait for him to get close so we can utilt>bair him. I've tried this, it works wonders. Doesn't make the MU an advantage though since it's just when we get the lead that it works, when Wario's forced to approach...

 

[jiovanni007]

Instead play smart and think of safer options like utilt and dtilt. Both are amazing in this match. If you make an empty jump and he ADs past it, go direct

Don't forget about Kirby's utilt either, it covers bair very well for approaches.

I have a question.

Why has no one said anything about our utilt (except JoWii in like, the last few posts. Props man!)? I expected this to be like, one of the first bits of information written here. Our utilt beats his aerials because ALL of his aerials are jointed. AND we can utilt>bair if it connects. Once we get a lead, we just have to turn our backs to Wario, and wait for him to get close so we can utilt>bair him. I've tried this, it works wonders. Doesn't make the MU an advantage though since it's just when we get the lead that it works, when Wario's forced to approach...

Wut???????

 

[Kewkky]

Wut???????

I mean as in, no one went in-depth with it... But yeah, I missed those posts. My bad.

I have literally stood completelystill with my back turned to Wario when I've gained the lead, and it sucks a lot for him. Only REAL things he can do are bite us (predictable), and waft us (we gotta be careful here, but if we shield it, he just wasted it, so don't count on him doing it too often). Literally, I've just stood there, walking a small bit away from him with my back to him. He has almost no answer to that! Since our utilt is fast, we can afford to throw them out even if he baits them, the cooldown on the attack is so small it never affects us, and really bothers characters like Wario who have to approach from the air, where shieldgrabs don't exist.

 

[fromundaman]

I agree Kewk, but he can AD through it for grab to, or Fsmash through them, or just Ftilt. Granted, 2 of those options involve him being on the ground though, so are less likely (Although SH AD Fsmash is pretty good), but yeah, he still has options. Oh, and a bike approach too.

 

[Kewkky]

I agree Kewk, but he can AD through it for grab to, or Fsmash through them, or just Ftilt. Granted, 2 of those options involve him being on the ground though, so are less likely (Although SH AD Fsmash is pretty good), but yeah, he still has options. Oh, and a bike approach too.

Airdodge: If we space our utilt well, we have enough time to get away from his upcoming followup. He only has 2 jumps, so hitting with the tip (or near the tip) of our utilt is actually quite easy and simple, especially considering its disjoint. If he mindgames the first few airdodges, you'd probably be paying attention to his habits and know by now what makes him airdodge into you. You could dsmash him if he airdodges into you after learning his habits, or you could just raise your shield and grab him while he's in his landing lag. I mean, if we're utilting him it's because he's approaching, and if he airdodges through our utilts because we don't space them well, it shouldn't be a problem shielding as soon as he starts yet another airdodge expecting to go through our utilt.

FSmash: I think I would just shield then ftilt Wario OoS, or shieldgrab if he approached me from the ground. Warios are usually always in the air weaving in and out, if he's on the ground he opens up a window for us to punish him/grab him.

FTilt: Same as with Fsmash.

Bike: ........ What Wario approaches by biking? It's so punishable. We could just jump and bair him if we saw him getting on his bike, and win and extend our lead. :|

 

[fromundaman]

Bike: ........ What Wario approaches by biking? It's so punishable. We could just jump and bair him if we saw him getting on his bike, and win and extend our lead. :|

Well, I've seen it done as a mindgame, but I meant more of bike pieces. If we're not approaching he can pull out the bike, then either we let him destroy/throw it, or we have to approach him. When he has bike pieces, approaching becomes really easy for him.

Also, for Ftilt/Fsmash I didn't mean approaching from the ground. They can just jump at you, then DI/AD away and use one of the two.

Your suggestion is good and I don't mean to nitpick; I'm just pointing out his options.

 

[Kewkky]

Your suggestion is good and I don't mean to nitpick; I'm just pointing out his options.

I know man, no worries. It's not perfect, which is why I say it doesn't really change the matchup. It's just that it's much, much safer than trying to bair him away while you have a lead, since every attempt atoffensive aerial approaches will result in a larger lead for us, and all we have to do is just turn our backs to him and pay full attention to everything he does... Heck, in a stage like Battlefield, if we position ourselves below a platform and turn our backs to him while maintaining the lead, he loses almost all of his approach options since now he can't even get close aerially!

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... That's a good point. So stages like BF and Lylat would be good to bring him to then?

 

[Kewkky]

Hmmm... That's a good point. So stages like BF and Lylat would be good to bring him to then?

Only if you're confident enough that you can take the lead... Or if you take the lead in his cp, and he cp'd a platformed stage on you. Otherwise, I would suggest a stage that he can't run around as much. I remember reading a post by DMG somewhere where he said that Wario loves platforms since he can run around and time people out with minimal effort, so I wouldn't counterpick a platformed stage on him.

Still, what I said is like a "well he took me to his cp and it has platforms, good thing I know what to do in this situation!" tip... Always avoid cp'ing Wario to stages he can run around in, else it'll be pretty hard to catch him.

 

[fromundaman]

True. Chasing Wario is no fun.

Also, ban Brinstar, forever and always.

 

[Kewkky]

Since we're naming stages, I thought I'd throw in the possibility of cp'ing Rainbow Cruise on him. He can't be gimped (pretty much), but the fact that the stage moves constantly means that Wario can't stay away from us if we stay ahead of him. He has to come to us to avoid falling behind the stage, instead of us having to go to him in other stages! In some parts of the stage (like going up, and going right) Wario is forced tu get to us because of the disappearing platforms, which we can take the advantage of and land some hits. Wario will now either prevent us from going ahead of him by intercepting us (which means we now have a chance to engage), or he will allow us to get ahead of him (which means we'll engage anyway once the stage forces him to get close). Insight on this? o_o

 

[fromundaman]

This is a good plan, not to mention the boat doesn't leave much room to run away either, and we have a couple janky things there, though we probably won't land them on Wario. Shouldn't be too hard to catch up if he gets ahead of us too, although then it's back to chasing him. He can camp us pretty hard though from the pendulum onwards though, but unlike other stages, that's thankfully only temporary and you can just wait it out.

 

[jiovanni007]

i still wouldn't go there personally. kewk is right about battlefoeld and such though. frigate would be nice since its not to terribly large and the platform isn't all that great. halberd would be a thought but you have to be very careful of uairs. on a ban take battlefield always.

 

[fromundaman]

I'd rather ban Halberd or Brinstar myself. Dying at ridiculously low %s to Uair and even more ridiculous %s than usual from waft just isn't worth it.

 

[Tiersie]

Watch out for wafts, something I found to be pretty effective against Wario is AD'ing through his juggle attempts and punishing his landing with a Utilt, which as Kewkky said is godly in this matchup.

Also, he will probably be trying to bait your aerial approach with ftilt angles upwards, this is a really pesky little move that also kills early. You have to know it's frame data to really counter it I guess.