Match Up Export - Bowser

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#1
Okay guys, you know the deal.
IMO this is a -1 or a -2.

The numbers don't matter to me anymore. I want to discuss where we do or don't want to fight Bowser, and how to fight bowser.

Gameplans, known GR's, etc.

:)

Let's go guys!
 

-LzR-

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#2
GR to uair kills us ridiculously early.
His SideB can wall us kinda well, but we can punish him with ease if they abuse it. Killing is really ******** here again, unless you rest of gimp him every time, don't expect to win either.
Watch out for ftilt, it has nice range and is pretty fast. Be careful when dairing, he can use his awesome UpB OoS.
And yes I have experience of this MU. He didn't even know about the GRs, but I still got owned too hard...
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#3
Damn okay.


I wanted to play Zigsta at APEX but he has a wedding to go to / participate in.

Ftilt is awfully fast, and OOS upB is retardedly good. Down B kills surprisingly early.

this game should be spend with walling bairs and poking with fair. Dair can get punished by OosUpB really well.

I've actually been getting 80% better at my retreating bairs, they were on fire last weekend. Holding the Analog stick away from my opponent and hitting back on the c-stick... man. I never was so consitent.

Also. Wavebounced pounds are good after a spaced bair. Wait for them to try to grab or Ftilt punish you.
 

Z'zgashi

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#4
I actually use Bowser AND Jiggs, but Ive actually never played the MU lol. Ill find someone who knows the other character, I know someone who uses Bowser and Jiggs here, so Ill ask them to play and use the other character.
 

-LzR-

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#6
Too bad our only Bowser player is like way better than everyone else in Finland so it's hard for me to really see what the MU is like when he outplays me like a piece of ****.
But I think this MU is pretty hard :(
 

B!squick

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#7
I think it goes without saying, but if you can get a juggle started, for the love of god, do not let up until Bowser is dead.

And anyway, Bowser is a huge target and it's kinda ******** how easy it can be to hit his giant head sometimes. >.>

Long story short, just don't get hit and victory is yours. I'm sure that's the game plan most of the time, though.

As far as stages go, I'm pretty sure every stage Bowser is good on Jigs is way better with. And then there's FD if you think you can get away with a Rollout.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#8
I agree and emphasize what you said about juggling bowser. Luckily with the Le' Puff, when we get momentum we actually, well, get momentum. Landing a rest on bowser is significantly easier (same with DK) which is unfortunate since they both kill us retardedly early.

Though about your stage choice of FD, the reasons i like this stage is because Bowser (i feel) does good under platforms via shield pressure and safe poking.... but..
How does bowser do on flat stages? You guys have a GR on us, and thats what would scare me from FD..

But if it doesn't make a difference on any stage.. then...
 
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#9
I actually use Bowser AND Jiggs, but Ive actually never played the MU lol. Ill find someone who knows the other character, I know someone who uses Bowser and Jiggs here, so Ill ask them to play and use the other character.
I hope this is me.
Anyway, I think this is minus -1 for puff
When I think about this MU, I think diddy vs snake. Bowser is huge and kills quite early, but because of his size and stuff, puff can get in with the juggles(jugglypuff?). We can harass them with empty jumps and air dodges and bait an attack and punish. Just don't be slow, or you'll get jabbed or most likely fortressed.
Screw fair in this MU, I would use it to space and shield pressure, or for offstage shenanigans. Nair to grab, don't get fortressed yet again.
That's all I can think of right now.

:phone:
 

-LzR-

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#10
The reason this MU is terrible is because of the GR that kills us really early. It kinda stops us from doing anything serious because of the risk of getting grabbed.
 

Z'zgashi

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#11
And even before kill percents, he can still ground release you to Jab or throw you for big percents.
 

-LzR-

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#12
What our Finnish Bowser likes to do is GR to jab -> ftilt. Pretty much damage and hard to DI out of and works on pretty much everyone. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know about the real GR though.
 

Zigsta

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#13
Hey guys, I'm mad busy moving now, but I'll get to this later in the week. Definitely a strong -2 for Jiggs.

:phone:
 

Z'zgashi

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#14
Yeah, Bowser has a 10 frame advantage when he releases everyone in the game aside from DK, so he can do a good amount of stuff.
 

Cassius.

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#15
Yeah, I'm on the page with Zigsta on this one. I think this is definitely -2.

Bowser obviously excels on the ground in comparison to Jigglypuff, that's a given. Jigglypuff has the ability to juggle Bowser pretty decently I guess, but Bowser's FAir and NAir serve as a good "combo" breaker in between her attacks. That being said, getting Bowser in the air will probably be the most difficult thing you can try to do if you're not using pound.

Seriously. Use Pound, because it'll be much better pressure than any of your aerials, especially against a shield camping Bowser. Bowser can just swat her away with FTilt ordinarily, but with pound I think we trade at the worst or something like that. Pound also eats Bowser's shield up, and it always forces us to angle it at some stupid way so we don't get poked terribly.

I think FD is a contender for Bowser's best option because of the amount of room we have on that stage. First of all, there are no platforms, so we are at risk of removing one of Bowser's best abilities (command grab > all of Jigglypuff's options when you're above us on a platform).

Aside from that, the glaring problem is the grab releases, and you're not as difficult to grab as say...Wario, or something. Retreating aerials or Pound can do a bit of work, but a grounded Bowser is such a menace to Jigglypuff lmao. We kill you at like 60 flat with UAir, which isn't that difficult to set up or do. On a ground release, we have the basic jab and FTilt I believe.

For that issue with the Finnish Bowser, I have a feeling that Jigglypuff can just DI into Bowser when he jabs, and then use rest before he FTilts you, because FTilt isn't super fast..it just gets the job done really nicely imo. I could be wrong, I just feel like jab-cancelling is so heavily flawed out of a grab release unless RCO lag is involved or the Bowser player is reading your bad habits or something.

And a small note, if you get Bowser offstage, of course, take advantage of that and try to gimp him to the best of your ability. But, what happens if Bowser just stays put in the center of the stage? It takes a lot of work to get Bowser to the edge at that point, especially because Jigglypuff does like...nothing at lower percents. lol

From the way I see it, Jigglypuff just has to play a weaving game and rely on hard frametraps or occasional gimps to kill us or get us to kill percents. For Bowser, all we have to do is land 4 moves or 4 Klaws and just get you with a hard attack or GR => UAir, and it's over. :/

Stage wise, I personally would CP FD, because of what I listed earlier and the argument about being in the center of the stage. I don't know what I would counterpick as Jigglypuff, because BF would save you from the UAir release (maybe? I forget how far up Jigglypuff goes--if she goes above the top platform, then she's safe. Otherwise...), but the problem with CPing us to BF is that it's our best stage as well. I'm sure Jigglypuff has some nasty stuff on BF anyway lol

edit: Jay, no Jigglypuff should be getting away with a rollout lol, that's the easiest move to react to. And if your reaction time is bad, just shield and UpB on reaction, or Klawhop over it.

I did get ****ed by a frametrap before off of a rollout ;=;
 

Zigsta

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#16
Yeah, jab canceling out of GR is only used if the Bowser is punishing bad habits and/or is having trouble buffering ftilt out of GR. Jiggs players should note, though, that our most damaging option after a grab release is air release>Klaw.

Like Limit said, Bowser just plays in the middle of the stage. I've played this MU a lot on both sides, but I doubt I have any videos of me playing the MU seriously. XD All my recorded games are friendlies, and I generally don't play MUs where Bowser's best at just standing there properly in friendlies just because people tend to get upset. :/ You'll definitely see me nairing Jigglypuff as a GTFO move. Our airdodge is booty, so I usually just nair instead. It trades hits often, and a Jigglypuff trading hits with a Bowser is a losing Jigglypuff.

I'd definitely take Jiggs to FD. You have nowhere to run.

It's also notable that jab>grab is true on Jiggs. So if you're at 50% and get jabbed, expect to get GR upair'd.

As Jiggs, you need to play this very, very patiently. Don't ever dair Bowser onstage. Bowsers typically recover low--Fortress has more verical recovery than most people think. If Bowser mixes it up by recovering Hugh (a last ditch effort), bear in mind that if he lands before Fortress totally ends, he doesn't have much lag. It's similar to DK's landing but has a slight touch more lag. Just something to bear in mind.

Be careful Rollouting Bowser. You don't wanna get pivot grabbed. Those of you who do use Rollout, though, know how to use it safely.

Jigglypuff mains rarely sit in their shield, but it's even more important in this MU. It's just asking to get Klawed. Klaw fresh does a whopping 18% and 13% stale, which is still solid. Klaw damage really adds up and beats out literally all of your moves.

Don't spotdodge. I'll fsmash you.

That said, I've seen Sing do SUPER janky things to my fsmash. I've literally used fsmash on a Singing Jiggs only to go sliding completely across the stage and fall asleep. :0

Bear in mind also that upair is a frametrap. You AD the upair, we get fair/nair/bair for free.

That's everything I can think to add after Limit's post.

:phone:
 

Uncle

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#18
Time to bring up some more stage stuff............

What happens if a Bowser player is banned from going to FD against a Jiggs player?

Well, Brinstar looks like an attractive option for Bowser players, I'd say. Jiggs will die even earlier than usual on this stage, and that's before the potential for acid damage (which Bowser is better at coping with).

Halberd might be a nice choice for Bowser too. GR-Uair and Utilt will really appreciate the low ceiling, but Jiggs could take advantage of the stage's underbelly with her jumps galore.

I could be off my rocker here, but those would be possible stages to watch out for along with FD if you're on the Jiggs side of the MU.
 

Cassius.

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#19
Jigglypuff's sharking isn't as effective because all of her aerials are punishable by a pretty large margin if they hit our shield. I don't think the "underbelly" thing is a big problem lol

And even if you feel paranoid, just hop on the top platform and chill.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#20
What Limit said.

Our uair is really the only thing comin' from straight below. With the exception of that we shark with bair and fair, which will lead to your Fortress. (is that what it's called? OosUpB)

Don't be too scared. Halberd does seem like a scary CP. And Brinstar is generally good fgor us, but it's better for you.

Airdodging seems awful in this match... Just bad things happen. With bigger characters it's probably better not to airdodge at all... too much risk.

Now.

1) Are any of you going to be at APEX? I've never played a good bowser.

2) Where are stages you would NOT want to go?
 

-LzR-

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#21
Nah that Finnish Bowser is awesome. Can beat any of my characters really :(
It's a sad case of outplaying. But yeah he is Finlands best player so no sweat.
But I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think you overrate Pound a lot. That is totally not safe on shield.

EDIT: Suddenly 7 posts appeared. This post was a reply to post #15.
 

Z'zgashi

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#23
I went to a smash fest today and played a lot of Bowser and a lot of Jiggs in friendlies (got X's Sonic down to 1 stock and 50%ish with Jiggs which felt like a huge accomplishment lol) but no one there wanted to use any Jiggs nor Bowser outside of me, so I couldnt actually play this specific MU which was a bit disappointing... Maybe this weekend at the tournament I can get a few matches in.

Also, Mink, Fortress OoS SHOULD be able to punish it, but if Jiggs is too high above bowser, Im pretty sure a quick utilt could punish it quite nicely.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#24
Rising pound can do wonders in some MU's.

And the sad thing is how safe it feels when you do it.

But, when you're at kill percents and your opponent has a Oos kill move....

Man... pound sucks.
 

-LzR-

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#25
Pretty much any decent character can Usmash Pound OoS. That move is laggy, you just need to not **** up and think the move only lasts for while instead of forever.
 

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#26
I probably wouldn't want to go to RC because I'm personally terrible there, but Jigglypuff's life expectancy gets shortened like every 15 seconds as the stage moves and the ceiling gets smaller lol

And I sorta figured that I was overrating Pound, but I just think you'll make better progress since it actually gets rid of part of the problem (Bowser's shield), and then you can properly poke and not have to worry about playing such a tight game as Jigglypuff would have to ordinarily. Like you said, I guess it's not safe...so it sucks to suck. lmao

Jigglypuff can't even really go for a safe crossup or anything. No one really can on Bowser because he can either UpB before you get to his backside, or UpB before you can even grab him or do something else.

Of course, Rest has the mega high risk and kinda high reward for attempting to land it once your damage reaches like..50% lol

I'm not sure if there's anything else that needs to be covered
 

Zigsta

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#27
Delfino's a good place to take Bowser. I'd basically take him to a large stage and run.

:phone:
 

-LzR-

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#32
But we shouldn't underestimate the awesome power of Bowsers butt.
That downB really really needs a grounded hitbox, kinda like how G&W and Pika have in their dairs.
 

Cassius.

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#36




--------------------




It wouldn't make sense for Bowser to have something behind him that picks up characters because he's not going in that direction. When Bowser lands, his whole body is literally a giant hitbox. I'm not following what you're saying lol
 
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#37
full hop dair over bowser or just jump over him. You can dair the tip of his shield and fade away. Bowser's up b will not hit you and you may even get to punish it. (if he jumps oos he gets hit with dair, and upsmash oos won't work either). bait the roll and ****.
 

Cassius.

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#38
Up Tilt will catch you if you try to go behind us, so all you can really do is just go away. That won't make progress for you at all lol.
 

Zigsta

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#39
full hop dair over bowser or just jump over him. You can dair the tip of his shield and fade away. Bowser's up b will not hit you and you may even get to punish it. (if he jumps oos he gets hit with dair, and upsmash oos won't work either). bait the roll and ****.
Bowser doesn't roll.

:phone:
 
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