Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Sheik

[Aninymouse]

MY 3DS GLITCHED AND DOUBLED POSTED, SO I JUST EDITED IN A SECOND POST SO THIS SERVED A PURPOSE. MY APPOLOGIES.

Mewtwo seems to be able to contend with Diddy Kong in Neutral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_ieNVwfeU

Diddy Kong is able to contend with Sheik in neutral.

However, people in this thread argue that Mewtwo's neutral can't keep up with Sheik.

I want to know, what's the difference? What does Sheik have that Diddy lacks?

(in before "Needles")

Because Diddy's conventional kill confirms are multi-hit (Fsmash, Usmash), you can sometimes fall out of them with smash DI. Also, Dtilt, the setup, while a solid move, is not covering near the horizontal space that needles or Bouncing Fish do... Diddy can throw you and aerial, but it's not as strong as Sheik's setup out of a grab.

 

[Swoops]

Sheik generally has an answer for EVERY character. She's a neutral god, and a lot of her stuff theoretically can shut down any character, without much chance for retaliation.

Mewtwo has a few really good saving graces in the match up. Shadow Ball, a kill throw, and decent speed. Seriously if they want to camp with needles and make you approach them they can do that very well, but it still gives you a chance to charge shadow ball. You now have a 25% option that makes more SH options dangerous for her, and can make reckless needles dangerous for her. If she plays perfectly around that can she just avoid or bait the SB? Sure, but the whole point is getting the opposing sheik to start thinking about how they are camping, and how they are approaching. That can allow you to get grabs, dtilts, etc.

I think the whole match up is finding time outside of needle range to charge shadow ball. That alone should be reason for her to approach you. If not, I believe you can launch it just over needle height and it will still dip enough to connect, and at the very least she now has to think about when and where she throws out needles.

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo seems to be able to contend with Diddy Kong in Neutral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_ieNVwfeU

Diddy Kong is able to contend with Sheik in neutral.

However, people in this thread argue that Mewtwo's neutral can't keep up with Sheik.

I want to know, what's the difference? What does Sheik have that Diddy lacks?

(in before "Needles")

This is not how matchups work at all. Not even remotely.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mewtwo seems to be able to contend with Diddy Kong in Neutral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_ieNVwfeU

Diddy Kong is able to contend with Sheik in neutral.

However, people in this thread argue that Mewtwo's neutral can't keep up with Sheik.

I want to know, what's the difference? What does Sheik have that Diddy lacks?

(in before "Needles")

Circular logic isn't good. You shoukd loom at each other's character tools and compare how they interact with each other.

 

[Nobie]

Circular logic isn't good. You shoukd loom at each other's character tools and compare how they interact with each other.

That isn't circular logic. That would be "Let's say Mewtwo is even with Sheik in Neutral. That would mean Mewtwo can space effectively against Sheik. Mewtwo can space against Sheik therefore Mewtwo goes even in Neutral."

What I'm actually asking here is, "What is the difference between Diddy's strong neutral and Sheik's that Diddy's isn't that difficult to fight while Sheik is perceived as an uphill battle?"

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That isn't circular logic. That would be "Let's say Mewtwo is even with Sheik in Neutral. That would mean Mewtwo can space effectively against Sheik. Mewtwo can space against Sheik therefore Mewtwo goes even in Neutral."

What I'm actually asking here is, "What is the difference between Diddy's strong neutral and Sheik's that Diddy's isn't that difficult to fight while Sheik is perceived as an uphill battle?"

The biggest difference would probably be their projectiles. Nana and needles are both strong neutral tools yet there's more counter play for nana. Since Nana can be controlled bye Mewtwo it allows mewtwo to take away a strong neutral option for diddy. Sheik needles aren't like that. Also diddy can struggle vs ranged characters more than sheik. Despite how good his fair is.

 

[Chiroz]

That isn't circular logic. That would be "Let's say Mewtwo is even with Sheik in Neutral. That would mean Mewtwo can space effectively against Sheik. Mewtwo can space against Sheik therefore Mewtwo goes even in Neutral."

What I'm actually asking here is, "What is the difference between Diddy's strong neutral and Sheik's that Diddy's isn't that difficult to fight while Sheik is perceived as an uphill battle?"

In order to do this we would have to analyze everything in the Sheik matchup and everything in the Diddy matchup. There isn't a simple answer.

The simplest answer I can give is: Speed + hitbox directions. Sheik approaches differently than Diddy, it's easier to intercept a Diddy F-Air than it is to intercept Sheik F-Air. Sheik is also much faster and her overall frame data is much faster and safer. She can also combo us to oblivion but that isn't part of the neutral I guess.

There's also Needles which beat out any camping.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That isn't circular logic. That would be "Let's say Mewtwo is even with Sheik in Neutral. That would mean Mewtwo can space effectively against Sheik. Mewtwo can space against Sheik therefore Mewtwo goes even in Neutral."

What I'm actually asking here is, "What is the difference between Diddy's strong neutral and Sheik's that Diddy's isn't that difficult to fight while Sheik is perceived as an uphill battle?"

The biggest difference would probably be their projectiles. Nana and needles are both strong neutral tools yet there's more counter play for nana. Since Nana can be controlled bye Mewtwo it allows mewtwo to take away a strong neutral option for diddy. Sheik needles aren't like that. Also diddy can struggle vs ranged characters more than sheik. Despite how good his fair is.

 

[Aninymouse]

I guess Sheik got her weight reduced by 1, so we can kill her 1% earlier! Huzzah!

 

[Chiroz]

U-Smash kills her 2% earlier depending on DI.

This matchup has completely changed now!

 

[Chiroz]

Rich just played K9 and took 4 games (almost 5 but made a mistake on one game) resetting bracket and almost winning a locals today.

I placed 7th/40 got taken out by Rich himself in Mewtwo dittos.

I'll post link once the stream is up but we can try analyzing Rich vs K9 and see how to deal with Sheik.

 

[Aninymouse]

Rich just played K9 and took 4 games (almost 5 but made a mistake on one game) resetting bracket and almost winning a locals today.

I placed 7th/40 got taken out by Rich himself in Mewtwo dittos.

I'll post link once the stream is up but we can try analyzing Rich vs K9 and see how to deal with Sheik.

Nice stuff. I haven't seen much of Rich Brown since 1.1.3. Good stuff on making top 8 yourself! Looking forward to those Youtube vids.

 

[Chiroz]

Nice stuff. I haven't seen much of Rich Brown since 1.1.3. Good stuff on making top 8 yourself! Looking forward to those Youtube vids.

I would say Rich is now undoubtedly on the top 3 Mewtwo list. I don't know if he's better than Blue or M^2 yet but he's definitely getting there. I mean I haven't watched Blue play yet but he's accomplished a lot and M^2 I've watched before and was just as equally amazed at Rich's Mewtwo.

Now that Rich has decided to actually main and lab Mewtwo he might become the best Mewtwo player soon.


Here's the stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/40467737, although I don't appear on it. I wanted the Mewtwo ditto to go on stream but Angbad and Zan were playing . I mean when have you seen 2 Mewtwo's on top 8, hahaha.



I myself am going to go back to labbing and training up my Mewtwo. I hadn't played Mewtwo seriously in like 4 months. I mean I took a 3 month break and as soon as I come back I pick up Cloud for a month and a half, hahaha. So now that I have my sights on leveling my Mewtwo up, watch out for me >:3.

I also placed top 33 at a regionals last weekend (220 players with all of our top players being there except for Zero and VoiD who were at PAX, but False and Trela were here from out of state), but I went all Cloud so it doesn't really count >.>.

 

[Browny]

I was interested when the SoCal PR came out, I wanted to see where RB actually was and I saw he wasn't top 20?

Do you think he is going to shoot up the PR soon, I remember watching him play Mewtwo a lot but never saw him on any streams, I didn't know if he was even going Mewtwo anymore or Olimar.

 

[Aninymouse]

Well, pre-1.1.3 Mewtwo had most of us depressed. I wasn't surprised that most of the usual suspects seemed to drop off the radar for a while.

 

[Chiroz]

I was interested when the SoCal PR came out, I wanted to see where RB actually was and I saw he wasn't top 20?

Do you think he is going to shoot up the PR soon, I remember watching him play Mewtwo a lot but never saw him on any streams, I didn't know if he was even going Mewtwo anymore or Olimar.

I think Rich dropped from the PR due to a lack of attendance. He had a falling out in the game were he didn't know who to main anymore and just stopped going to tournies all together.

2-3 weeks after 1.1.3 was released he decided he would main Mewtwo and now he's back.

Rich was placed around 11th I believe so I expect him to get back on the PR even if it's slightly lower than that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would say Rich is now undoubtedly on the top 3 Mewtwo list. I don't know if he's better than Blue or M^2 yet but he's definitely getting there. I mean I haven't watched Blue play yet but he's accomplished a lot and M^2 I've watched before and was just as equally amazed at Rich's Mewtwo.

Now that Rich has decided to actually main and lab Mewtwo he might become the best Mewtwo player soon.


Here's the stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/40467737, although I don't appear on it. I wanted the Mewtwo ditto to go on stream but Angbad and Zan were playing . I mean when have you seen 2 Mewtwo's on top 8, hahaha.



I myself am going to go back to labbing and training up my Mewtwo. I hadn't played Mewtwo seriously in like 4 months. I mean I took a 3 month break and as soon as I come back I pick up Cloud for a month and a half, hahaha. So now that I have my sights on leveling my Mewtwo up, watch out for me >:3.

I also placed top 33 at a regionals last weekend (220 players with all of our top players being there except for Zero and VoiD who were at PAX, but False and Trela were here from out of state), but I went all Cloud so it doesn't really count >.>.

The videos are up on YouTube already. I've linked to them in the video thread I'll post the videos vs k9 on here.

https://youtu.be/zePs_IRzDAE
https://youtu.be/kTRNWF0KuUg

There's examples of uthrow to uair being avoided by rich brown...but I guess that means k9 is a bad sheik.

 

[Chiroz]

The videos are up on YouTube already. I've linked to them in the video thread I'll post the videos vs k9 on here.

https://youtu.be/zePs_IRzDAE
https://youtu.be/kTRNWF0KuUg

There's examples of uthrow to uair being avoided by rich brown...but I guess that means k9 is a bad sheik.

Or the fact that it's a 50/50. You know, as in it's a guess of what option someone is going to use and not guessing right makes you miss (as Sheik).

It was being said that there was a sure fire way to avoid it and Mewtwo had an easy time doing it.

Did Rich avoid it 100% of the time? No


You do realize you killed your own argument about "you can wait and ALWAYS avoid it". No... You can't.



Edit: Also just from watching the first video. Most of the times K9 goes for the 50/50 Mewtwo is already way out of the % range. I think K9 has not realized yet just how light Mewtwo is. He keeps going for Vanishes at 100% and Double Jump U-Airs at 110%. With Mewtwo you should be going for those at 60% and 80%.

K9 doesn't have much Mewtwo knowledge. By that point it's not even a 50/50 anymore and it's pretty easy to avoid by jumping/air dodging and drifting.



Edit2: Also that wasn't this thursday's tournament. That tourny was 2 weeks ago. This thursday it was FAD #5, it must be on their Twitch.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Or the fact that it's a 50/50. You know, as in it's a guess of what option someone is going to use and not guessing right makes you miss (as Sheik).

It was being said that there was a sure fire way to avoid it and Mewtwo had an easy time doing it.

Did Rich avoid it 100% of the time? No


You do realize you killed your own argument about "you can wait and ALWAYS avoid it". No... You can't.



Edit: Also just from watching the first video. Most of the times K9 goes for the 50/50 Mewtwo is already way out of the % range. I think K9 has not realized yet just how light Mewtwo is. He keeps going for Vanishes at 100% and Double Jump U-Airs at 110%. With Mewtwo you should be going for those at 60% and 80%.

K9 doesn't have much Mewtwo knowledge. By that point it's not even a 50/50 anymore and it's pretty easy to avoid by jumping/air dodging and drifting.



Edit2: Also that wasn't this thursday's tournament. That tourny was 2 weeks ago. This thursday it was FAD #5, it must be on their Twitch.

I thought that was the same tournament. Ook cool. Anyways man you seem to be unable to admit when you're wrong. So kudos to you. I don't speak in absolutes and I'm not 100% sure about sheiks 50/50 so I wouldn't say you can always avoid it. Looking back on the 50/50 discussion it seemed like you were arguing just to argue. I don't think you've really read my post at all. I think you're too busy trying to be right.

Anyways I'm going to use your logic and classify k9 as a bad sheik since he couldn't get the dthrow uair on mewtwo vs RB. Thanks man you've totally changed my view on k9.

 

[Murlough]

I thought that was the same tournament. Ook cool. Anyways man you seem to be unable to admit when you're wrong. So kudos to you. I don't speak in absolutes and I'm not 100% sure about sheiks 50/50 so I wouldn't say you can always avoid it. Looking back on the 50/50 discussion it seemed like you were arguing just to argue. I don't think you've really read my post at all. I think you're too busy trying to be right.

Anyways I'm going to use your logic and classify k9 as a bad sheik since he couldn't get the dthrow uair on mewtwo vs RB. Thanks man you've totally changed my view on k9.

I don't understand why a matchup discussiom has to get personal.

 

[Chiroz]

I thought that was the same tournament. Ook cool. Anyways man you seem to be unable to admit when you're wrong. So kudos to you. I don't speak in absolutes and I'm not 100% sure about sheiks 50/50 so I wouldn't say you can always avoid it. Looking back on the 50/50 discussion it seemed like you were arguing just to argue. I don't think you've really read my post at all. I think you're too busy trying to be right.

Anyways I'm going to use your logic and classify k9 as a bad sheik since he couldn't get the dthrow uair on mewtwo vs RB. Thanks man you've totally changed my view on k9.

I wasn't arguing just for the sake of arguing. I was arguing against a notion that was set forward by someone which said: "Mewtwo's weight can help him avoid it easily". This wasn't your post, but it was the post that started the discussion. You then jumped into the discussion started talking a lot of crap and then when you noticed my claims were true you said that I wasn't arguing the correct topic when I was the one who started the discussion in the first place.

See in discussions, regularly there's a main topic that gets discussed, it's not whatever you want the topic to be. You don't just jump into a discussion and say: "No this isn't the topic you 2 are discussing, it's actually this one I just made up in my mind". It's too bad you don't understand how discussions and general writing works. I can't really explain it to you.



Congrats on resorting to ****** behavior and trying to incite a fight. It seems that maturity is also something you lack. Aside from the biggest attribute you're missing which is logic.

"You can avoid the 50/50 by double air dodging and drifting!"
"No, it's still a 50/50, Mewtwo isn't special. if a Sheik can't hit you out of it, she's probably a bad Sheik."

-Player avoids it about half the time when it's an actual 50/50 (Not counting the times he was above 100% since it's not a 50/50 anymore at that point)

"He avoided half the time something you said happens around half the time, therefore you are wrong!"
"I also said it was easily avoidable and he still got hit many times, therefore I am right!"

- Cool Story bro. Seems completely legit.


Also K9 not having matchup knowledge because he's never practiced against M2 is mostly what caused Rich to be able to trick him so many times at high %s, but that doesn't really matter since at that % It's not even a 50/50 anymore.



I am blocking you btw, so don't expect another reply. But truly work on your reading skill and on your critical thinking skills. They are needed for entry exams at college/masters/phd (I am expecting you to be a high school or undergrad student) and you are not that good at it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wasn't arguing just for the sake of arguing. I was arguing against a notion that was set forward by someone which said: "Mewtwo's weight can help him avoid it easily". This wasn't your post, but it was the post that started the discussion. You then jumped into the discussion started talking a lot of crap and then when you noticed my claims were true you said that I wasn't arguing the correct topic when I was the one who started the discussion in the first place.

See in discussions, regularly there's a main topic that gets discussed, it's not whatever you want the topic to be. You don't just jump into a discussion and say: "No this isn't the topic you 2 are discussing, it's actually this one I just made up in my mind". It's too bad you don't understand how discussions and general writing works. I can't really explain it to you.



Congrats on resorting to ****** behavior and trying to incite a fight. It seems that maturity is also something you lack. Aside from the biggest attribute you're missing which is logic.

"You can avoid the 50/50 by double air dodging and drifting!"
"No, it's still a 50/50, Mewtwo isn't special. if a Sheik can't hit you out of it, she's probably a bad Sheik."

-Player avoids it about half the time when it's an actual 50/50 (Not counting the times he was above 100% since it's not a 50/50 anymore at that point)

"He avoided half the time something you said happens around half the time, therefore you are wrong!"
"I also said it was easily avoidable and he still got hit many times, therefore I am right!"

- Cool Story bro. Seems completely legit.


Also K9 not having matchup knowledge because he's never practiced against M2 is mostly what caused Rich to be able to trick him so many times at high %s, but that doesn't really matter since at that % It's not even a 50/50 anymore.



I am blocking you btw, so don't expect another reply. But truly work on your reading skill and on your critical thinking skills. They are needed for entry exams at college/masters/phd (I am expecting you to be a high school or undergrad student) and you are not that good at it.

Already have a BA nice try though man. I didn't say a bunch of things I've stated the options mewtwo has from the 50/50. I've also stated what I believe to be his best option. Trust you didn't mention anything I wasn't fully aware of already. Nor did anything you post have any bearing on my thoughts on the 50/50. But yeah I think I'll enjoy being on yout block list. What have to deal with your arrogance anymore. Whatever happened to that break you were taking from the m2 boards?

 

[meleebrawler]

Already have a BA nice try though man. I didn't say a bunch of things I've stated the options mewtwo has from the 50/50. I've also stated what I believe to be his best option. Trust you didn't mention anything I wasn't fully aware of already. Nor did anything you post have any bearing on my thoughts on the 50/50. But yeah I think I'll enjoy being on yout block list. What have to deal with your arrogance anymore. Whatever happened to that break you were taking from the m2 boards?

Well now I know for certain you don't read, since he just said he's blocked you and thus didn't hear a word of this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well now I know for certain you don't read, since he just said he's blocked you and thus didn't hear a word of this.

Thanks for quoting me now he can see it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Thanks for quoting me now he can see it.

Nope, when you're blocked even the quoted posts are invisible.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nope, when you're blocked even the quoted posts are invisible.

Ah oh well .

 

[Top Boss]

How do you guys think this MU is in 1.1.5?

 

[Mr. B]

I saw no Sheiks online yesterday (also no clouds) which was strange... I wonder why that could be! ... Lots of Charizards though.

The matchup has probably improved slightly, but its still a decent challenge - Mewtwo doesn't appreciated being rushed-down...

 

[Chiroz]

How do you guys think this MU is in 1.1.5?

Might be 40:60 or maybe even 45:55 now. No experience yet but being faster leads to so much more stuff and Sheik not being able to get free damage or easy kills out of throws and also dying 3-4% earlier from our kill moves makes this much more easy to handle.

 

[meleebrawler]

Might be 40:60 or maybe even 45:55 now. No experience yet but being faster leads to so much more stuff and Sheik not being able to get free damage or easy kills out of throws and also dying 3-4% earlier from our kill moves makes this much more easy to handle.

Less range on needles also makes it easier to charge when she's not on the offensive.

 

[Top Boss]

I was gonna say that the nerfs to Sheik let us take advantage of rage more and kill her super early, give us more opportunities to charge shadow ball, and makes it easier to close the gap in neutral as well as punish her whiffs a little easier.

 

[LRodC]

We could have the potential to go even, but I'm not sure, and it's pretty optimistic. Either way, it's probably not too bad anymore. Would have to fight good Sheik players and see.