Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Sheik

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ahhh, Sheik. What can really be said about her? One of those characters which, when played optimally is quite difficult for anyone to beat, and Mewtwo is no exception.

Naturally, with her frame data she has little trouble outboxing Mewtwo when she gets in, and likely score several hits in the process. Her fair is difficult to challenge head-on (but not impossible with Mewtwo's bair), and Bouncing Fish will easily let her escape any not-frame-tight string. Finally, her needles can be very frustrating as they disrupt Shadow Ball charging and firing.

Most of this is stuff almost everybody tends to struggle with. So what does Mewtwo have going for him here?

Well, for starters, Sheik usually needs to rack up a fairly significant amount of damage before landing a KO, even on a lightweight like Mewtwo, so he can often manage to get some rage going and possibly turn the tables. Further compounding this is the relative ease Mewtwo can escape Sheik's 50-50s from dthrow, thanks to his airspeed and confusion. As such, the main KO threat from Sheik at relevant percents comes from Bouncing Fish offstage; dodge this, and you may just get a chance to turn the tables. In general Mewtwo shouldn't be getting gimped, though unfortunately neither will Sheik.

Despite his large size, Mewtwo won't be getting comboed TOO much by Sheik, thanks to his weight and airdodge. Sheik, being a fastfaller is actually fairly susceptible to combos from Mewtwo, so he can keep up in the damage race. And finally, Mewtwo of course has a much easier time finishing stocks with swift kill moves like fair, uair and usmash, or fishing dsmashes.

 

[Aninymouse]

Ahhh, Sheik. What can really be said about her? One of those characters which, when played optimally is quite difficult for anyone to beat, and Mewtwo is no exception.

Naturally, with her frame data she has little trouble outboxing Mewtwo when she gets in, and likely score several hits in the process. Her fair is difficult to challenge head-on (but not impossible with Mewtwo's bair), and Bouncing Fish will easily let her escape any not-frame-tight string. Finally, her needles can be very frustrating as they disrupt Shadow Ball charging and firing.

Most of this is stuff almost everybody tends to struggle with. So what does Mewtwo have going for him here?

Well, for starters, Sheik usually needs to rack up a fairly significant amount of damage before landing a KO, even on a lightweight like Mewtwo, so he can often manage to get some rage going and possibly turn the tables. Further compounding this is the relative ease Mewtwo can escape Sheik's 50-50s from dthrow, thanks to his airspeed and confusion. As such, the main KO threat from Sheik at relevant percents comes from Bouncing Fish offstage; dodge this, and you may just get a chance to turn the tables. In general Mewtwo shouldn't be getting gimped, though unfortunately neither will Sheik.

Despite his large size, Mewtwo won't be getting comboed TOO much by Sheik, thanks to his weight and airdodge. Sheik, being a fastfaller is actually fairly susceptible to combos from Mewtwo, so he can keep up in the damage race. And finally, Mewtwo of course has a much easier time finishing stocks with swift kill moves like fair, uair and usmash, or fishing dsmashes.

Mewtwo's Bair is a questionable choice for fighting Shiek's Fair, my friend. What made you choose that strategy? If any aerial were to be used to challenge Shiek, I would think it would be our own (arguably superior) Fair.

Anyway.

Ugh, needles. Shiek is a monster at close range, but getting some breathing room often just invites needle pestering. Shiek might not be a knockout queen, but no matter what, with Mewtwo, every percentage counts. You can reflect the needles, and you'll probably pull it off, but doing so just makes Shiek approach. Finding time to charge Shadow Ball will be tough no matter what.

I'll go off in search of some Mewtwo vs. Shiek gameplay. I'll edit in any decent videos I find to the end of this post.

Match 1: Mew² vs Denti @ Shockwave 63
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RN8kh73bI94

Match 2: Mew² vs Denti @ Shockwave 64
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n-0VUpQqg8I

Match 3: Mew² vs Zanryo @ Shockwave 58
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAPs6ib9Ov8

Match 4: Trela vs Karna (pre-patch and all the more impressive)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G0vYiEqur38

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mewtwo's Bair is a questionable choice for fighting Shiek's Fair, my friend. What made you choose that strategy? If any aerial were to be used to challenge Shiek, I would think it would be our own (arguably superior) Fair.

Anyway.

Ugh, needles. Shiek is a monster at close range, but getting some breathing room often just invites needle pestering. Shiek might not be a knockout queen, but no matter what, with Mewtwo, every percentage counts. You can reflect the needles, and you'll probably pull it off, but doing so just makes Shiek approach. Finding time to charge Shadow Ball will be tough no matter what.

I'll go off in search of some Mewtwo vs. Shiek gameplay. I'll edit in any decent videos I find to the end of this post.

Match 1: Mew² vs Denti @ Shockwave 63
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RN8kh73bI94

Match 2: Mew² vs Denti @ Shockwave 64
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n-0VUpQqg8I

Match 3: Mew² vs Zanryo @ Shockwave 58
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAPs6ib9Ov8

Match 4: Trela vs Karna (pre-patch and all the more impressive)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G0vYiEqur38

You can't reflect needles on reaction so you kinda have to guess. Which can be a pain. The stage of choice vs sheik should either be BF or dreamland. Use platforms to allow you to charge.

 

[Mr. B]

I quite enjoy fighting sheik, since I get a really good workout for my thumbs, although I tend to lose. I never feel in control of the match.

Dodging the fish is relatively easy, but its those teleport hitboxes that I fear the most.

Landing the kill shot on Sheik is really tough too. I almost never get a chance to fully charge a SB and once I have it I try hard to make it count, but that ladydawg be nimble.

Strangely, I find myself reaching for Uangled-Ftilt a lot more than against other characters, but mainly its all about SHADFAir and SHNAir. And Dtilt, obviously, but that's everyday-potatoes.

 

[Nobie]

Something I've been looking at is how these two characters' attacks interact with each other in neutral. Interestingly, while Sheik is a stronger character overall, there are certain ranges when Mewtwo can actually out-button sheik.

For example, let's look at their fairs. Sheik's is Frame 5 with good range, while Mewtwo's is Frame 6 with good range and a better disjoint. If both character short up, then at close range Sheik's will beat out Mewtwo's every time. However, as the characters are spaced further apart from each other, Mewtwo's fair starts to trade with Sheik's when executed simultaneously.

When you're comparing a 13% damage KO move with a 5% slap that won't get any follow-ups because Sheik just got clawed by purple energy, it's a trade firmly in Mewtwo's favors at all but the highest of percents. At Sheik's max range for fair it still trades with Mewtwo's fair, and eventually Sheik reaches a point where if she extends her arm, it can get whiff punished by Mewtwo's fair. In other words, if you play it smart, you can prevent Sheik from getting away with randy forward airs.

However, if Sheik is above Mewtwo (like when both characters full hop), then the downward arc of Sheik's fair will hit Mewtwo while Mewtwo's own fair is more likely to miss. So, it's not like Mewtwo's fair just beats Sheik's. It just has a strong chance of doing so because it's almost as fast and hits much, much harder, and there's a strong chance you'll trade at worst if you space properly as Mewtwo.

Edit: Slightly off-topic, but these days I'm amazed by how absurdly good Mewtwo's fair is. It might arguably have the strongest combination of range, speed, and power in the entire game.

 

[ShadowKing]

First these is in shieks favor with the combo game everything else mewtwos favor

Shiek hardly has any kill moves.So Mewtwo can kill shiek earlyer because if the do down throw>to uair or up b mewtwos weight can help him escape.

Mewtwos recovery has a horizontal recovery.Shiek does to but it's very counterble(if that Is even a word)

Projectiles Shiek has her needles that can be reflected or destroyed by a shadow ball

spacing Mewtwos bair helps him that fight do to long range

 

[Chiroz]

First these is in shieks favor with the combo game everything else mewtwos favor

Shiek hardly has any kill moves.So Mewtwo can kill shiek earlyer because if the do down throw>to uair or up b mewtwos weight can help him escape.

Mewtwos recovery has a horizontal recovery.Shiek does to but it's very counterble(if that Is even a word)

Projectiles Shiek has her needles that can be reflected or destroyed by a shadow ball

spacing Mewtwos bair helps him that fight do to long range

Sheik's 50/50 is still a 50/50, Mewtwo is not special. Mewtwo can Side-B to scape it instead of Double Jumping (which is probably a better idea), but if read he will eat an U-Air right after since it lags a ton.

Mewtwo also dies to Sheik extremely early too. Around 60% for Vanish, 80% for fresh U-Air and just a little later for Bouncing Fish. Sheik dies around 80% to U-Smash and around 125% to U-Throw.

Bouncing Fish is safer than Confusion, what are you talking about? Also Vanish is basically the safest recovery move and has just as much range as Teleport.

You cannot reflect Needles on reaction and if a Sheik you also cannot Shadow Ball Needles on reaction. For both of those you need to start Confusion or Shadow Ball before Sheik starts Needles which means you got a read on her. Getting 7% off a read is not exactly something I would call "in Mewtwo's favor", specially since if Mewtwo fails the read he'll eat 30%+ and those same Needles will deal more than 7% per stock for sure.

 

[Aninymouse]

Sheik's 50/50 is still a 50/50, Mewtwo is not special. Mewtwo can Side-B to scape it instead of Double Jumping (which is probably a better idea), but if read he will eat an U-Air right after since it lags a ton.

Mewtwo also dies to Sheik extremely early too. Around 60% for Vanish, 80% for fresh U-Air and just a little later for Bouncing Fish. Sheik dies around 80% to U-Smash and around 125% to U-Throw.

Bouncing Fish is safer than Confusion, what are you talking about? Also Vanish is basically the safest recovery move and has just as much range as Teleport.

You cannot reflect Needles on reaction and if a Sheik you also cannot Shadow Ball Needles on reaction. For both of those you need to start Confusion or Shadow Ball before Sheik starts Needles which means you got a read on her. Getting 7% off a read is not exactly something I would call "in Mewtwo's favor", specially since if Mewtwo fails the read he'll eat 30%+ and those same Needles will deal more than 7% per stock for sure.

Yes, exactly. Good points.

I think someone would have to be kinda jaded to assume Mewtwo has an advantage, here. Really, the two important questions this thread should try to answer is, how badly does Sheik beat us, and how should Mewtwo combat Sheik?

We've already got some hints as to question #2.

Even though question #1 is not as important, I'll hazard a guess. Based on what I've seen and what I've played, it's probably around 60:40 in Sheik's favor. In my experience, Sheik usually sets the tempo for the match. A rushdown Sheik is not easy to punish, but is easier to deal with at times since we fight better up close. A campy Sheik is potentially easier to punish (or even harder, if the Sheik is really good), but far more demoralizing.

Mewtwo can't afford to play run away with Sheik. Mewtwo just isn't as powerful a zoner. So, while Mewtwo loves to play footsies and fish for Nairs, Fairs, and Dtilts, he cannot afford to stray too far towards any one strategy. Like Sheik, you must be willing to adapt and read your opponent. It's just more difficult for Mewtwo to pull that off, since Needles are so ridiculous.

 

[Browny]

I need to do some numbers on exactly what % you have to be at to always avoid sheiks dthrow-uair by jumping out of it. If you play by the ledge for a little bit you can take your % out of the range. The range is quite narrow for sheik to get that correct amount of rage and % on mewtwo to KO him from that.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik's 50/50 is still a 50/50, Mewtwo is not special. Mewtwo can Side-B to scape it instead of Double Jumping (which is probably a better idea), but if read he will eat an U-Air right after since it lags a ton.

Mewtwo also dies to Sheik extremely early too. Around 60% for Vanish, 80% for fresh U-Air and just a little later for Bouncing Fish. Sheik dies around 80% to U-Smash and around 125% to U-Throw.

Bouncing Fish is safer than Confusion, what are you talking about? Also Vanish is basically the safest recovery move and has just as much range as Teleport.

You cannot reflect Needles on reaction and if a Sheik you also cannot Shadow Ball Needles on reaction. For both of those you need to start Confusion or Shadow Ball before Sheik starts Needles which means you got a read on her. Getting 7% off a read is not exactly something I would call "in Mewtwo's favor", specially since if Mewtwo fails the read he'll eat 30%+ and those same Needles will deal more than 7% per stock for sure.

Mewtwo's double airdodge has 5 frames of invulnerability (best in game.) which actually makes it very hard for sheik to time a airdodge punish when coupled with mewtwo's drifting.
Considering how sheik actually kinda struggles to kill mewtwo at times and how mewtwo will benefit from rage, this is a very doable matchup for mewtwo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I could be wrong about this but Mewtwo's drift it was messes up the 50/50 for sheik not the air dodge. The air dodge is a part of it but she can easily bait the airdodge and punish with uair. There's also certain percentages when it's guaranteed. At those percentages I don't think the uair will kill you. You shouldn't get hit by the vanish if you drift and air dodge accordingly. You should be aware of the percentages and react accordingly.

 

[Chiroz]

You guys do realize Mewtwo has one of the lowest air accelerations in the game right? Trust me, drifting doesn't help you avoid Vanish or the 2nd U-Air and neither does double air dodging. Both of those things only help you throw off a bad Sheik player.

I've been in that situation many times vs VoiD, vs Vinnie, vs Mr. R, vs K9. I mash air dodge, vanish straight up still hits. I do Side-B, U-Air still hits. Double Jump, U-Air still hits. It's still a 50/50, or I guess it might be a 33/33/33. If you jump she's supposed to U-Air immediately, if you air dodge she's supposed to wait and U-Air (or vanish), if you Side-B she's supposed to follow and U-Air.

She can always catch you, she just has to read your reaction, which is why it's called a 50/50.

 

[HoSmash4]

I think Denti would have a bone to pick with you calling him a bad sheik.

 

[Chiroz]

I think Denti would have a bone to pick with you calling him a bad sheik.

If you air dodge immediately (to avoid the U-Air), Vanishing straight up still hits you, Mewtwo doesn't gain speed fast enough. The Sheik doesn't even need to do anything special, just the same thing as always, same timing and everything (most people have 7-9 frames vulnerability between 2 air dodges, Mewtwo has 6 having 1-3 less frames doesn't exactly make it awesome, it's on the Sheik to time the window correctly).

I edited my post above. I am sorry that Denti apparently can't time a double jump U-Air correctly but "mashing air dodge" has never helped me avoid anything from the Sheiks I play.



I would say the correct way to avoid it is to Jump + Air Dodge once you are high % enough to actually do that. Don't air dodge before that since Vanish could kill you, just eat the U-Airs in order to stale them, then once you are high enough to initiate a jump then just combo it with an air dodge.

I haven't labbed it at all but I would imagine that with how light he is, a little bit of staling and a 2 frame air dodge Mewtwo is probably able to live up to a % where he can do this to avoid it, whereas many chars just can't live the combo enough to get to this %.

It's like with other chars, once they are higher than 130% they can just double jump out guaranteed. Mewtwo can probably just do the jump + air dodge much sooner than that.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheiks '50/50' is a very deep aspect for sheik. It's a misconception that it is a dice roll because sheiks.

Timing the vanish isn't as easy as it seems because you can opt to buffer airdodge as a straight coin flip or airdodge Several frames later because the way hitstun works at high % airdodge ends up coming out like 8ish frames later or something.

It's hard to explain but theres a good reason sheiks '50/50' ratio at the top level is like 40-45%'

 

[Chiroz]

Sheiks '50/50' is a very deep aspect for sheik. It's a misconception that it is a dice roll because sheiks.

Timing the vanish isn't as easy as it seems because you can opt to buffer airdodge as a straight coin flip or airdodge Several frames later because the way hitstun works at high % airdodge ends up coming out like 8ish frames later or something.

It's hard to explain but theres a good reason sheiks '50/50' ratio at the top level is like 40-45%'

No, let me explain how it works. During Hitstun animation, Air Dodge comes out before Jump does. There is a certain range where U-Air out of throw is 100% guaranteed, then as your % grows you get to a % where you can ONLY air dodge out of it because Air Dodge can come out before anything else during Hitstun. You cannot aerial, you cannot jump, you cannot do anything BUT Air Dodge out of the tumble.

The 50/50 is Sheik guessing whether you will press the Air Dodge button right away or wait (as you're saying). If you wait then she can land U-Air, if you don't wait then she can land Vanish. Saying: "I can wait to avoid the Vanish" is completely true and 100% correct, but that just means the Sheik guessed your reaction wrong, she could have hit you if she had gone for U-Air.



Here's the post detailing how Air Dodging out of Hitstun works on this game:

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-33#post-20022628



As you can see Air Dodging can come out a merely 4-6 frames earlier which is what avoids the U-Air, otherwise it would be a true combo. Also saying: "Timing the Vanish isn't easy" is not an argument on whether or not Mewtwo is good to avoid it, the timing is purely Sheik's responsibility.

Also if she can't time the Vanish she can just go for Double Jump U-Air which is also guaranteed if you Air Dodge immediately.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You guys do realize Mewtwo has one of the lowest air accelerations in the game right? Trust me, drifting doesn't help you avoid Vanish or the 2nd U-Air and neither does double air dodging. Both of those things only help you throw off a bad Sheik player.

I've been in that situation many times vs VoiD, vs Vinnie, vs Mr. R, vs K9. I mash air dodge, vanish straight up still hits. I do Side-B, U-Air still hits. Double Jump, U-Air still hits. It's still a 50/50, or I guess it might be a 33/33/33. If you jump she's supposed to U-Air immediately, if you air dodge she's supposed to wait and U-Air (or vanish), if you Side-B she's supposed to follow and U-Air.

She can always catch you, she just has to read your reaction, which is why it's called a 50/50.

You shouldn't instantly air dodge after the throw you're going to get hit by vanish and uair that way. You have to wait a little and then air dodge. Like I said before sheik shouldn't be able to kill you at certain percentages so there's no real reason to air dodge right after the move.

Like you've stated side B will only allow you to avoid the vanish it won't allow you to cover the uair. The vanish is easier to avoid than the uair. So you should probably treat the sheik like she's going to uair you. I sti say drift+ air dodge is your best bet.

 

[Chiroz]

You shouldn't instantly air dodge after the throw you're going to get hit by vanish and uair that way. You have to wait a little and then air dodge. Like I said before sheik shouldn't be able to kill you at certain percentages so there's no real reason to air dodge right after the move.

Like you've stated side B will only allow you to avoid the vanish it won't allow you to cover the uair. The vanish is easier to avoid than the uair. So you should probably treat the sheik like she's going to uair you. I sti say drift+ air dodge is your best bet.

If you wait to air dodge U-Air hits you. If you're at a % high enough where you can wait before air dodging then you should be jumping which allows you to avoid everything. At that point it's no longer a 50/50 it's a 0 because she shouldn't be hitting you ever.




I am currently at a tournie but I will explain to you guys WITH MATH why there's no 100% surefire way to avoid this.

 

[Chiroz]

You shouldn't instantly air dodge after the throw you're going to get hit by vanish and uair that way. You have to wait a little and then air dodge. Like I said before sheik shouldn't be able to kill you at certain percentages so there's no real reason to air dodge right after the move.

Like you've stated side B will only allow you to avoid the vanish it won't allow you to cover the uair. The vanish is easier to avoid than the uair. So you should probably treat the sheik like she's going to uair you. I sti say drift+ air dodge is your best bet.

Ok, lets start small.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-33#post-20022628

Depending on how hard you are hit (how high your % is) you can Air Dodge sooner than you can do any other action. Through testing it has been said that you can Air Dodge 4/6 frames before anything else depending on knockback and hitstun.

This is fact #1.



Fact #2: Sheik's Throw to U-Air starts as a true combo, completely unavoidable, nothing you can do to stop it. We can all agree on this right? As such it is quite obvious that Sheik has + frames on her Throw that are greater than her endlag + jump squat + how long she takes to reach you + U-Air startup


Fact #3: As you get higher % the Throw has higher knockback which makes Sheik last longer reaching your position. You get put into more hitstun too, but the frames she requires to reach you are higher than the extra frames of hitlag.


Fact #4: There will be a % where Sheik will not be able to reach high enough before you can just jump out of the combo.




Ok, using math we can deduce the following:

In between 2 and 4 there WILL DEFINITELY be a % at which U-Air will hit you exactly 4 frames before you can Jump. Since you can Air Dodge 4 frames earlier then that means that if you were to Air Dodge at this % then you would avoid the U-Air, but if you were to do ANYTHING else then the U-Air would hit you.

What if Sheik reads the Air Dodge? She can wait it out and U-Air you right as you come out of the Air Dodge, if she guessed it and timed it correctly this is unavoidable. THIS is what people refer to as the 50/50.

Sheik also has a second option which is a super early kill move, which is going for Vanish. YOU are claiming that you can just wait and air dodge afterwards. We ALREADY STABLISHED that Air Dodge only comes out 4-6 frames before jumping, since U-Air definitely comes out before you can input a jump this means that the MAX amount of frames that you "can wait" is 3 frames otherwise the U-Air would hit you.

EVEN if you had inhuman precision and were able to wait exactly 2-3 frames (which I don't think it's possible for you to measure AT ALL). Vanish has 3 active frames, so if you have this inhuman precision, we should assume Sheik also has this inhuman precision and is able to time Vanish to overlap perfectly with the 3 frames that you "can wait".



At the end of the day, it's still a 50/50. Sheik just guesses whether you will wait 4+ frames or whether you will just air dodge immediately. If you waited and air dodged then you could have jumped out (well maybe not Mewtwo since Mewtwo's jump is ass. But other characters could have) which is a much better option.

There's a certain % at which you will just be able to jump everytime too, but at that point it's not considered a 50/50 anymore. It's also not considered a 50/50 when it's a true combo either. There are also certain characters who might get options available to them depending on their weight/fall speed and their aerials/specials. Like Mewtwo who can Side-B at some %s, but unfortunately. if the Sheik reads you then Side-B is just as risky as waiting is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Chiroz you're completely missing what I'm saying. You're also wrong. You claim thay sheik can wait 3 frames and still time her vanish to hit you when that's not possible. You're failing to take into account fall speed. Mewtwo is floaty and sheik is a FF if she waits to vanish she's no longer in range to catch you.

Being able to air dodge out of his stun doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at all. Immediately air dodging after the throw is the worst option possible. DJ and Side B aren't viable options to escape so I've ruled them out

When sheik is setting up her 50/50 you should ask yourself which option is going to kill you. The percentages where mewtwo will die just from vanish he will not die to uair I believe. So you play to avoid the uair. You can react to the vanish you can't react to the uair. Even taking an uair when it won't kill isn't bad. So you have to take the lesser of two evils here.

There's other factors we should keep in mind which further complicated things sucb as rage and stage selection. Then it's the sheik player who has to choose which option to go for. There's a coue of options the sheik hasnto try to go after you with.

Here's what high level sheik's are saying about the dthrow 50/50

https://mobile.twitter.com/tsmzero/status/689257034089271296

 

[Chiroz]

Chiroz you're completely missing what I'm saying. You're also wrong. You claim thay sheik can wait 3 frames and still time her vanish to hit you when that's not possible. You're failing to take into account fall speed. Mewtwo is floaty and sheik is a FF if she waits to vanish she's no longer in range to catch you.

Being able to air dodge out of his stun doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at all. Immediately air dodging after the throw is the worst option possible. DJ and Side B aren't viable options to escape so I've ruled them out

When sheik is setting up her 50/50 you should ask yourself which option is going to kill you. The percentages where mewtwo will die just from vanish he will not die to uair I believe. So you play to avoid the uair. You can react to the vanish you can't react to the uair. Even taking an uair when it won't kill isn't bad. So you have to take the lesser of two evils here.

There's other factors we should keep in mind which further complicated things sucb as rage and stage selection. Then it's the sheik player who has to choose which option to go for. There's a coue of options the sheik hasnto try to go after you with.

Here's what high level sheik's are saying about the dthrow 50/50

https://mobile.twitter.com/tsmzero/status/689257034089271296

You got to memorize %s, weights and fall speeds. It's still a 50/50 if you KNOW that.

Also you claim I am missing the point when clearly the hard proof data I gave you went over your head.



"Being able to air dodge out of his stun doesn't seem relevant to the discussion at all. Immediately air dodging after the throw is the worst option possible. DJ and Side B aren't viable options to escape so I've ruled them out "

SOMETIMES IT'S THE ONLY OPTION WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE WITH MY FACTS. You just have to read and analyze for 5 seconds. You do understand how little of a time 3 frames are right? Pick Mewtwo, hit A on your controller, by the time you see Mewtwo's hand rise it's already been around FOUR TIMES the amount of time you would be able to "wait" (since there's controller input lag and TV display lag) that's not really "waiting" and it won't help you avoid anything. I don't even know how you would be precise enough to wait 3 frames since there is no indication when you're out of hitstun.




You are completely right though, it's not a 50/50, it's a 100%, you shouldn't be air dodging when Vanish can kill you because U-Air can never kill you. Then when U-Air CAN kill you, you should air dodge immediately because the 2nd U-Air will hit you closer to the ground, thus allowing you to survive.

ONLY when you would die to the 2nd U-Air (the one close to the ground) is when you should actually be analyzing how to trick Sheik. By that point the combo is NO LONGER a 50/50. You have Side-B, Double Jump and Air Dodge as options, so it's a 25/25/25/25 (Although technically DJ can be caught by immediate U-Air because Mewtwo's jump sucks, so it's a 33/33/33 to be honest).

The combo is not 50/50 at all times, it starts out as 100%, becomes 50/50 and at some point become 33/33/33, there's a certain % where it's 0 and there's nothing guaranteed since you are just too high for Sheik to reach. You are trying to explain to me how you can wait to Air Dodge in a way where Sheik will never hit you EVEN if she reads you and I am telling you that you CANNOT unless you're at that 0% guaranteed phase, at which point then you could do any action and she won't hit you anyways.



Also I find it funny that you think you will escape Sheik's Vanish hitbox by dropping 3 more frames, specially since she normally catches people with the very top of the hitbox. Apparently the char you're playing can fall to the ground from higher than full hop range in like 7 frames, can't even throw out an aerial.

I've never played Sheik, ever. But I will gladly lab out the specific %s for the 50/50 on a character of YOUR CHOOSING and then you can try "waiting to air dodge". The % range isn't going to be small either, it's going to be about 40-50% range.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Chiroz I can't follow your logic at all. So I'm not going to try to bother quoting you.

Air dodge is the first option you can do out of hitstun. Vanish covers this option so why would you immediately air dodge?

Vanish will kill you earlier than uair. You should look to avoid the vanish mix up.

Shiek's uair should kill mewtwo around 110-120. I'm not sure of the exact percentages you need to keep this in mind so you can avoid dying.

Your focus in avoiding the 50/50 is to not die. That's all you're looking for. Your worst option is to air dkdge immediately. Since you're opening yourself up for the vanish kill.

The dthrow to uair it can't be avoided at certain percentages at those percentages mewtwo can still survive depending on the stage.

If we don't immediately air dodge and we're not at the percentage where dthrow uair connects. We can cause the uair to miss us. Sheik is looking to read our air dodge so that she can punish accordingly.

You don't need to lab it out just talk to some of the hign level sheik's that you know and ask them about the mix up. Ask them what's the hardest option for them to cover. When or why do they go for vanish over uair and vice versa. That will save yoh a bunch of time.

 

[Chiroz]

Chiroz I can't follow your logic at all. So I'm not going to try to bother quoting you.

Air dodge is the first option you can do out of hitstun. Vanish covers this option so why would you immediately air dodge?

Vanish will kill you earlier than uair. You should look to avoid the vanish mix up.

Shiek's uair should kill mewtwo around 110-120. I'm not sure of the exact percentages you need to keep this in mind so you can avoid dying.

Your focus in avoiding the 50/50 is to not die. That's all you're looking for. Your worst option is to air dkdge immediately. Since you're opening yourself up for the vanish kill.

The dthrow to uair it can't be avoided at certain percentages at those percentages mewtwo can still survive depending on the stage.

If we don't immediately air dodge and we're not at the percentage where dthrow uair connects. We can cause the uair to miss us. Sheik is looking to read our air dodge so that she can punish accordingly.

You don't need to lab it out just talk to some of the hign level sheik's that you know and ask them about the mix up. Ask them what's the hardest option for them to cover. When or why do they go for vanish over uair and vice versa. That will save yoh a bunch of time.

No you have a lack of reading comprehension.

Like an essay this discussion had a topic it began with. The topic wasn't "Can Mewtwo avoid being killed by the 50/50", it was "Mewtwo can avoid the 50/50 easily". It wasn't about it killing or not, it was about Mewtwo having some surefire way of avoiding it. I get regularly people like to change the topic when they notice their original idea was wrong, but I like to stick to what's being discussed.

Chiroz
The dthrow to uair it can't be avoided at certain percentages at those percentages mewtwo can still survive depending on the stage.

This is what I've been dicussing all along. You've been replying with "You can wait to air dodge" and I've been telling you: "No, you cannot". Somehow you made up in your mind that we were ONLY discussing kill % instead of the 50/50 as a whole.

I am sorry if I seem infuriated but I don't like discussing something so obvious, bringing in facts and hard proof only to have people not read them as you obviously didn't.

Chiroz
Your focus in avoiding the 50/50 is to not die. That's all you're looking for. Your worst option is to air dkdge immediately. Since you're opening yourself up for the vanish kill.

I'll just quote myself from an earlier post:

"You are completely right though, it's not a 50/50, it's a 100%, you shouldn't be air dodging when Vanish can kill you because U-Air can never kill you. Then when U-Air CAN kill you, you should air dodge immediately because the 2nd U-Air will hit you closer to the ground - (Edit: AND Vanish won't reach you that far up in time, so you don't need to worry about Vanish), thus allowing you to survive.

ONLY when you would die to the 2nd U-Air (the one close to the ground) is when you should actually be analyzing how to trick Sheik. By that point the combo is NO LONGER a 50/50. You have Side-B, Double Jump and Air Dodge as options, so it's a 25/25/25/25 (Although technically DJ can be caught by immediate U-Air because Mewtwo's jump sucks, so it's a 33/33/33 to be honest)."






Also I will lab out if Mewtwo's kill % and what his options are and what Sheik's options are when Mewtwo is at kill %.



Edit: Doing 1/4th speed, click by click in practice (which I've heard is actually 2 frames and not 1) and moving at the fastest speed I could with Sheik and buffering the Air Dodge with Mewtwo I got 3 clicks before U-Air would have hit.

That's a possibility of 6-7 frames max that you can wait. I am pretty sure if Sheik read that you were "waiting" and just waited to throw out the U-Air instead of immediately throwing it out, 6-7 frames wouldn't throw her off. Specially since U-Air lasts 24 frames, it's not like she needs to be super tight on the timing. Also Mewtwo reaches kill % before he reaches a % where he can DJ or Side-B if the Sheik is fast and the U-Air is fresh. Obviously U-Air would probably be very stale so you should probably be surviving to a % where you could get more options and where there would be a bigger window to wait for air dodge too.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Chiroz *sigh* I'm really getting tired of talking with you. It's rather annoying but I'll run down what I've said from the beginning.

There's percentages when Mewtwo can avoid sheik's 50/50. There's percentages when the dthrow to uair can't be avoided. This in turn doesn't mean that it's 100% thing.

There's times when sheik can choose the wrong option like vanish. This allows you to dj or side B. However, if the sheik goes for the uair you'll be hit out of these options.

If you immediately air dodge after the dthrow you're going to eat vanish and die. This is the worst option.

Now I've already stated that you should assume that the sheik is going to uair and react to the vanish. Drift + Air dodge is your best chance of escaping. You're going off on tagents talking about how air dodge is the first tjing you can do out of hit stun. That has nothing to do with anything. I even linked you to Zero talking about how sheik's dthrow uair is difficult yet you're throwing out wild claims about how it's guaranteed. Hell you even claimed that the only bad sheik's allow you to escape the 50/50.

But yeah man enjoy. I'm not really feeling you ATM.

 

[Nobie]

I would say the correct way to avoid it is to Jump + Air Dodge once you are high % enough to actually do that. Don't air dodge before that since Vanish could kill you, just eat the U-Airs in order to stale them, then once you are high enough to initiate a jump then just combo it with an air dodge.

Wait, I thought "jump + air dodge" is just the default mode of evasion for Mewtwos in general against everything ever.

Are people NOT doing that?

It's no coincidence that air dodge ends right at the peak of Mewtwo's second jump.

 

[Chiroz]

Chiroz *sigh* I'm really getting tired of talking with you. It's rather annoying but I'll run down what I've said from the beginning.

There's percentages when Mewtwo can avoid sheik's 50/50. There's percentages when the dthrow to uair can't be avoided. This in turn doesn't mean that it's 100% thing.

There's times when sheik can choose the wrong option like vanish. This allows you to dj or side B. However, if the sheik goes for the uair you'll be hit out of these options.

If you immediately air dodge after the dthrow you're going to eat vanish and die. This is the worst option.

Now I've already stated that you should assume that the sheik is going to uair and react to the vanish. Drift + Air dodge is your best chance of escaping. You're going off on tagents talking about how air dodge is the first tjing you can do out of hit stun. That has nothing to do with anything. I even linked you to Zero talking about how sheik's dthrow uair is difficult yet you're throwing out wild claims about how it's guaranteed. Hell you even claimed that the only bad sheik's allow you to escape the 50/50.

But yeah man enjoy. I'm not really feeling you ATM.

You have a serious lack of reading comprehension. You didn't even read Zero's tweet correctly. I am going to take a break from the Mewtwo boards again, you guys seriously won't learn much ever the way you guys don't even try to read what others are saying.

Also thanks for repeating what I had been discussing since the beginning, let's me know how much you were actually reading my posts. Just look at the post Nobie quoted which was BEFORE your posts and I already said what you said on this last post. See how you didn't read at all?

Whatever, see you guys when I feel like it again.

 

[meleebrawler]

People aren't inclined to believe things other than raw numbers just by reading it. The number 1 way to actually to learn things in any fighting game is to actually DO things, so don't get upset if people don't buy what you say right off the bat.

I don't give a **** if Sheik's dthrow-uair is a true 50-50 or not, it's still something that you have to be aware of and gain experience in dodging. Reading about the million variables that go into this isn't going to help.

 

[Aninymouse]

You have a serious lack of reading comprehension. You didn't even read Zero's tweet correctly. I am going to take a break from the Mewtwo boards again, you guys seriously won't learn much ever the way you guys don't even try to read what others are saying.

Also thanks for repeating what I had been discussing since the beginning, let's me know how much you were actually reading my posts. Just look at the post Nobie quoted which was BEFORE your posts and I already said what you said on this last post. See how you didn't read at all?

Whatever, see you guys when I feel like it again.

Please don't generalize an entire forum's worth of people... you have been arguing with a solitary person. No need to make your quarrel with everyone. We welcome anyone to come and discuss our character of choice, you incuded.

People aren't inclined to believe things other than raw numbers just by reading it. The number 1 way to actually to learn things in any fighting game is to actually DO things, so don't get upset if people don't buy what you say right off the bat.

I don't give a **** if Sheik's dthrow-uair is a true 50-50 or not, it's still something that you have to be aware of and gain experience in dodging. Reading about the million variables that go into this isn't going to help.

Reading about theory helps me a lot, though, as does watching videos. Different people learn differently. Of course in a fighting game you must put your knowledge into practice, but head smarts are not unimportant.

You can't generalize how people learn.

 

[meleebrawler]

Reading about theory helps me a lot, though, as does watching videos. Different people learn differently. Of course in a fighting game you must put your knowledge into practice, but head smarts are not unimportant.

You can't generalize how people learn.

I don't doubt the importance of reading (videos are a different animal though, concrete evidence of things other than damage numbers). You just can't rely solely on the words of others to get better, which is something both the writer and reader need to understand.

And in an actual fight, do you really want to be thinking about a wall of text?

 

[Aninymouse]

I don't doubt the importance of reading (videos are a different animal though, concrete evidence of things other than damage numbers). You just can't rely solely on the words of others to get better, which is something both the writer and reader need to understand.

And in an actual fight, do you really want to be thinking about a wall of text?

Well, not everyone's brain works the same way. The way my brain works, while I'm in the middle of a situation, I can recall things that I have read or written down in an instant. So, for me, reading and writing help me greatly in learning and remembering things, as does watching things being done. Conversely, being told how to do something, for me, is ineffective.

Everyone's different.

There is value in discussing facts and figures on Smashboards, and sharing our knowledge with each other so that we can improve. We can't meet in person, so how else will we do it? Not everyone is able to notice the same kinds of things, after all. We all have unique skills.

 

[Chiroz]

Please don't generalize an entire forum's worth of people... you have been arguing with a solitary person. No need to make your quarrel with everyone. We welcome anyone to come and discuss our character of choice, you incuded.

Reading about theory helps me a lot, though, as does watching videos. Different people learn differently. Of course in a fighting game you must put your knowledge into practice, but head smarts are not unimportant.

You can't generalize how people learn.

Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize, and normally I take a break from the boards because I feel ashamed of how I act. I don't want to get flustered and talk down to someone but sometimes it happens because I get annoyed. So I get ashamed of my own actions and prefer to just leave for a while.

Anyways, I will probably stick around a bit, decided to lab Mewtwo again and drop Cloud for a small while. I am probably going to main one and secondary the other one but I am unsure which one to do. My heart says Mewtwo but my brain knows Cloud is a better choice.

 

[Aninymouse]

Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize, and normally I take a break from the boards because I feel ashamed of how I act. I don't want to get flustered and talk down to someone but sometimes it happens because I get annoyed. So I get ashamed of my own actions and prefer to just leave for a while.

Anyways, I will probably stick around a bit, decided to lab Mewtwo again and drop Cloud for a small while. I am probably going to main one and secondary the other one but I am unsure which one to do. My heart says Mewtwo but my brain knows Cloud is a better choice.

It's fine, Raykz. I've been posting next to you since the pre-3DS era. Everyone has bad days. I remember voting for you to be a front page contributor because I saw your writing skill.

No one should fault you for playing Cloud if you want to.

However, keep in mind, no one knows what's going to happen in 2 days. A lot might change. Maybe just chill out and wait for some patch notes before you make some life decisions.

 

[Squerk]

From my experience, Mewtwo does surprisingly well vs Sheik.

 

[Chiroz]

From my experience, Mewtwo does surprisingly well vs Sheik.

How exactly? I find it to be one of, if not his worst matchup. How do you deal with F-Airs?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How exactly? I find it to be one of, if not his worst matchup. How do you deal with F-Airs?

Not many characters really have answers for her fair. You're going to have to be defensive and choose defensive options. The first thing you should recognize is when you're actually able to shield grab the move. There's ranges when it's unsafe. When it's safe you just have to take the pressure. You should also take note of what the sheik player does after you shield the fair. You can try to trade with fair but I haven't had too much luck with that.

Yeah that's about it k ow the ranges microspace all that stuff. Roll etc etc etc.

 

[Chiroz]

Not many characters really have answers for her fair. You're going to have to be defensive and choose defensive options. The first thing you should recognize is when you're actually able to shield grab the move. There's ranges when it's unsafe. When it's safe you just have to take the pressure. You should also take note of what the sheik player does after you shield the fair. You can try to trade with fair but I haven't had too much luck with that.

Yeah that's about it k ow the ranges microspace all that stuff. Roll etc etc etc.

Yea but Sheik is also extremely good at camping and she can build % with Needles so she doesn't have to approach, she can make us approach so we can't exactly stay on the defensive for the whole match.

I've asked many pros and what I've been told is: Wait until Sheik jumps then immediately dash in and PS the F-Air. If she doesn't throw it out or you don't PS then run and try again. - This seems like the best best to punish it but I wouldn't say this is exactly Mewtwo handling the matchup very well as was said above.

 

[Metros]

From my experience, Mewtwo does surprisingly well vs Sheik.

Perhaps, but bear in mind the skill of the player you're against. Mewtwo can barely get near a good Sheik player.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo seems to be able to contend with Diddy Kong in Neutral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_ieNVwfeU

Diddy Kong is able to contend with Sheik in neutral.

However, people in this thread argue that Mewtwo's neutral can't keep up with Sheik.

I want to know, what's the difference? What does Sheik have that Diddy lacks?

(in before "Needles")

 

[Aninymouse]

Yea but Sheik is also extremely good at camping and she can build % with Needles so she doesn't have to approach, she can make us approach so we can't exactly stay on the defensive for the whole match.

I've asked many pros and what I've been told is: Wait until Sheik jumps then immediately dash in and PS the F-Air. If she doesn't throw it out or you don't PS then run and try again. - This seems like the best best to punish it but I wouldn't say this is exactly Mewtwo handling the matchup very well as was said above.

Yeah, perfect shielding sounds nice until they catch you in a tomahawk...

There is no easy answer vs. Sheik. Sheik unquestionably has an answer to our every option. The only reason I don't feel it's 70:30 or worse is because Mewtwo can kill Sheik from anywhere with Uthrow at 100-130% or so depending on all the usual factors. Then there's Shadow Ball, which kills from any range. Then we have our excellent Usmash which can come through in a pinch and kill earlier than Uthrow. And if you're playing out of your mind, you might even go offstage and Fair Sheik for that early kill, though that seems like a blue moon scenario in the real world.

So, basically, Sheik has an answer for everything Mewtwo has... but we can kill her off a grab or projectile. It comes down to reads and player skill, with the advantage in Sheik's favor.

And let's be honest, there's a big difference between your neighborhood Sheik player and ZeRo.