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Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Bowser

meleebrawler

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Still, Mewtwo needs to be careful, since even though it's more mobile than Bowser, its very low weight can work against it. As such, Mewtwo has to avoid getting hit, which can be easier said than done if it doesn't have a fully charged Shadow Ball ready.

Basically, the dilemma is not too different from that of Ganondorf, where even though he has problems against the faster fighters, they can't afford to take any heavy blows from him.

But like I said, I don't know enough of this match-up to determine who does better overall.
The consensus seems to be that it's even. Some people think performance in neutral is more important will give it to Mewtwo, while those who think survivability is where it's at give Bowser the edge. In the end it really does just come down to whoever makes fewer mistakes.
 

Spikezillian

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Yeah, really. This is a matchup thread. Not a moveset comparison.
There's a time and place for everything. Making a decision on whether one character is better than another just from one perspective, such as looking at simple pros and cons, don't you think that's a little narrow-minded? You could be like "Yeah, mewtwo has better recovery, he runs faster, and he has shadow ball so bowser isnt good" but seriously that doesn't contribute to the conversation more than beating a dead horse. There's much more to it than just that. I compared moves simply to open people up to every single detail about the characters, since the moves we use are literally the bare basic functions of a fighting game. Obviously if I compare one move to another move it might not ever actually happen, but thats not what I mean when I compare the moves, I used the comparison for simply practicality, no matter what opponent is using what.

Be happy someone is passionate about making such a comparison.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Bowser can DJ to escape followups from Confusion and... then what? Now you don't have it to mix up your landing, and with his bad airspeed it's a trivial matter for Mewtwo to get under him and usmash, and this with only a small dash if he jumps away like he should, so it's not hard to react to the dair that would be the only thing to really beat this (then disable). Airdodging past it isn't an option due to Bowser's size, again. Only the ledge provides a safe escape, but then you're back in a ledge pressure scenario.
If there's any platforms on the stage, we have a mix up for our landing. We like FD, but we're not married to playing on this stage if the MU says to play somewhere else. Every stage has ledges that will likely be nearby, and we're pretty safe there. Mewtwo can't cover several ledge options with a single move like we can, and we have an aggressive means of getting up via double jump Side B, which is lagless and cuts through the shield of those who want to wait and see what we do. And remember, we have a lagless landing with an aerial command grab so you don't have room to mixup your pressure when covering our landing after confusion, only go aggressive before we land. If I feel too pressured by a running Usmash or Dash attack before landing, I'll use Dair to outprioritize the threat and punish. Nothing I do is guaranteed, but nothing Mewtwo can do is guaranteed either.

There's a time and place for everything. Making a decision on whether one character is better than another just from one perspective, such as looking at simple pros and cons, don't you think that's a little narrow-minded? You could be like "Yeah, mewtwo has better recovery, he runs faster, and he has shadow ball so bowser isnt good" but seriously that doesn't contribute to the conversation more than beating a dead horse. There's much more to it than just that. I compared moves simply to open people up to every single detail about the characters, since the moves we use are literally the bare basic functions of a fighting game. Obviously if I compare one move to another move it might not ever actually happen, but thats not what I mean when I compare the moves, I used the comparison for simply practicality, no matter what opponent is using what.

Be happy someone is passionate about making such a comparison.
It's the Jab - Mewtwo, Recovery - Mewtwo business that's useless. Of course you think these moves and aspects of the character are better on you, you're playing Mewtwo. You know everything about what Mewtwo's jab leads into, while I know everything Bowser's jab leads into. It's just opinions of what's better, and the ratings have no bearing on the matchup. We don't beat Sheik because our Smash attacks or specials are objectively better than hers, that would be a ridiculous way of looking at things. Move analysis is better when you pick out attacks that have an impact. Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is good because: it gives him a way to fight or stall without risking unfavorable trades. Mewtwo's Dtilt is good because: it's a noncommital poke that leads into more attacks and won't be punished easily. Bowser's jab is good because: the same reasons that Mewtwo's Dtilt is good, so watch out for that. These are the moves you want to talk about when not getting hit is such a big part of the Matchup.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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The consensus seems to be that it's even. Some people think performance in neutral is more important will give it to Mewtwo, while those who think survivability is where it's at give Bowser the edge. In the end it really does just come down to whoever makes fewer mistakes.
That's pretty much how I feel about this match-up. Mewtwo may have the higher mobility and less laggy moves, but Bowser has the brute force that strikes fear for a lot of lightweight fighters. Whoever wins comes down to who makes the least amount of mistakes with their battle plan.
 

BlazGreen

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Mewtwo is pretty much forced to play lame in this match since any stray hit or throw from Bowser becomes very dangerous after 60% or so. Luckily Mewtwo does have a few ways to keep Bowser out and can punish his mistakes hard.

On the flip side, Bowser doesn't have to get as many hits in and his incredible survivability makes it very difficult for Mewtwo to get the kill. Bowser also has his new "Hoo Hah" or whatever you want to call it that gives him a near guaranteed kill off of a throw.

Overall it looks quite even and at most I'd say it's a very slight advantage for Bowser. I'd definitely like to see more footage of this MU though as it's actually pretty interesting.
 

Y2Kay

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We haven't had this much activity in MU discussion for ages, so over 40 responses is a nice surprise. Don't let this trend end too soon!

:150:
 

LRodC

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I'm not sure about this match up. I don't really have anything to add that others haven't. I think it's a fairly even match up. If someone wins, it's only by a very slight amount.
 

SeanS

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In the realm of theoretical play, it is without a doubt Mewtwo favored. In practice, it is 50:50.

Both characters punish the other exceedingly well. Mewtwo tends to be the punisher, but needs more punishes. Bowser benefits from rage a bit more as well.

Also, Mewtwo can edgeguard Bowser, while the reverse should not ever occur.
 

Mo433

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I'm pretty sure that this would be a even MU.

If someone were to have the MU advantage it would be Mewtwo simply because of better edgeguarding, safer recovery, and a safer kill option.
 

!Blue!

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I'm pretty sure that this would be a even MU.

If someone were to have the MU advantage it would be Mewtwo simply because of better edgeguarding, safer recovery, and a safer kill option.
Im LoF Blue and i have used mewtwo against a player named tsb chaos bowser main. The match up is nontheless terrifying. But mewtwo has a easy time keeping boswer out but if bowser gets a hold of mewtwo expect that if you are over 60% its a stock gone. But luckily mewtwo after a certain % can avoid bowsers up throw upair. Shadowball is your friend dtilt is too. Play safe and patience is rewarded handsomely. I have many videos on my mewtwo bowser matchup and many others on YouTube. If you like there is many already posted in the vs. Recorder thread
 

BarSoapSoup

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As a heavy player of both (I play two matches of Mewtwo for every three matches I play with Bowser, give or take), Mewtwo's primary goal would be to just keep Bowser in the air. Bowser's aerials are stronger, yes, but they aren't as fast and have huge endlag with Mewtwo can easily abuse with his incredibly superior airgame. Even if you'd rather not risk getting close and letting the Bowz hug you mid-air, you can always spam shadow balls as he's landing and then follow up with a Dash Attack if he air-dodges the Shadow Ball.

Overall I'd say it's 50/50. Bowser is a tank while Mewtwo is a glass cannon. Could go both ways, imo.
 

Mo433

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Im LoF Blue and i have used mewtwo against a player named tsb chaos bowser main. The match up is nontheless terrifying. But mewtwo has a easy time keeping boswer out but if bowser gets a hold of mewtwo expect that if you are over 60% its a stock gone. But luckily mewtwo after a certain % can avoid bowsers up throw upair. Shadowball is your friend dtilt is too. Play safe and patience is rewarded handsomely. I have many videos on my mewtwo bowser matchup and many others on YouTube. If you like there is many already posted in the vs. Recorder thread
Yea. I've heard of you. I personally think you're one of the best Mewtwo players. So you think the MU is even?
 

!Blue!

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Yea. I've heard of you. I personally think you're one of the best Mewtwo players. So you think the MU is even?
It is in mewtwos favor. I look at it just the same as playing against a ganon. If you are careless you get k.o'ed
 

Mo433

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It is in mewtwos favor. I look at it just the same as playing against a ganon. If you are careless you get k.o'ed
Yea. That's the same way I see this MU. Bowser has the tools to mess Mewtwo up real good, but if both players are playing safe Mewtwo definitely wins.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Considering how light Mewtwo is, it probably shouldn't risk attacking Bowser directly while he's in the middle of using an aerial attack, such as the down aerial. Waiting until Bowser is vulnerable at least ensures that Mewtwo can strike back without the risk of seeing its current damage build up.

Alternatively, using a fully charged Shadow Ball against Bowser's aerial attacks can ensure that Mewtwo won't take a hit.
 
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がんばってね!
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I'm curious, being more or less 50/50 in theory would there be any stages that could change the favor slightly? Does Bowser like platforms?

We haven't had this much activity in MU discussion for ages, so over 40 responses is a nice surprise. Don't let this trend end too soon!

:150:
If people want to request what to do next, I guess make your voices heard in the General Match Up thread. Mewtwo vs. any heavy weight is a lot of fun.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm curious, being more or less 50/50 in theory would there be any stages that could change the favor slightly? Does Bowser like platforms?
Bowser likes being under platforms. Lots of moves can cleave the entire space that a target may be standing or rolling, without leaving us open for punish or trades. And our Uthrow forces tumble states just above Battlefield platform height at 50-65%. And by already being under the platform for a tech chase, it's a good situation that we're still labbing. The smaller size of battlefield also gives the opponent less room to run and space. But we don't like platforms for the top MUs like ZSS. She can land on platforms to extend Uair strings and get the extra height needed for a kill. Nowadays our stages of choice are just Smashville and FD. It only ever goes wrong for us during projectile spam fights like villager or Fox. There's only one linear direction of approach on flat stages, and that's into their zone. Not ideal.

If you want to know which place to take Bowser, it's a tough call. Battlefield is good if you've got great Uair strings, but not if you have trouble killing (larger blastzones, heaviest character in the game, you get the idea)
 
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Aninymouse

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Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn Thanks for moving this discussion back towards reality a bit. The fanboyism going on in this thread really makes me cringe.

As far as stages go, Battlefield has advantages and disadvantages for both characters; both want Battlefield for different reasons.

Bowser wants Battlefield because: it compliments his tankiness by letting him live longer; platforms allow mixing up landings; Bowser can shark through platforms; platforms allow Bowser to potentially kill even earlier with Flying Slam and Koo-Pah; the short-ish main platform does not give Mewtwo much room to run away, putting big pressure on Mewtwo.

Mewtwo wants to go to Battlefield because: larger blast zones give a tiny bit more survival; platforms give Mewtwo twice as many jab lock setups; Mewtwo can shark through platforms; Platforms allow Mewtwo the possibility to kill vertically earlier, and make aerial juggles easier; Mewtwo can go under the stage to the other side.. even though that's not practical.

All in all, I'd say Bowser gets more out of Battlefield, unless the Mewtwo has mastered jab locking (which they should, since it's one of Mewtwo's best weapons against the entire cast).

Mewtwo's gonna like Lylatt and Duck Hunt vs. Bowser, I'd guess. FD also ain't half bad for Mewtwo.
 

RayNoire

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So I'm a little late, but I wanted to get some experience in the MU.

I thought with his new Bow Wow kill confirm that Bowser might be harder in theory than DK (our worst MU, and among the worst in the game), but I was overrating the kill %s and the % window of Bow Wow a bit. Really the MU is not too different than it was before.

But it's still not good for us in the slightest. Mewtwo hates heavies, despite what a lot of people think. The kill % difference is so lopsided, and the frame data and range so comparable, that without a gimp or Disable we are in serious trouble. We can combo him to 50% easily, but with Bowser that's only 1/3 of the way there.

Also, the idea that Shadow Ball stops approaches is a strictly WiFi perspective. Offline, shields actually work.

I'm not going to throw out a number since ratios mean entirely different things to different people, but Bowser mains shouldn't worry about this MU, while Mewtwo mains that have pocket characters will want to consider using them here.
 

420quickscoper

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So I'm a little late, but I wanted to get some experience in the MU.

I thought with his new Bow Wow kill confirm that Bowser might be harder in theory than DK (our worst MU, and among the worst in the game), but I was overrating the kill %s and the % window of Bow Wow a bit. Really the MU is not too different than it was before.

But it's still not good for us in the slightest. Mewtwo hates heavies, despite what a lot of people think. The kill % difference is so lopsided, and the frame data and range so comparable, that without a gimp or Disable we are in serious trouble. We can combo him to 50% easily, but with Bowser that's only 1/3 of the way there.

Also, the idea that Shadow Ball stops approaches is a strictly WiFi perspective. Offline, shields actually work.

I'm not going to throw out a number since ratios mean entirely different things to different people, but Bowser mains shouldn't worry about this MU, while Mewtwo mains that have pocket characters will want to consider using them here.

Our worst MU? I hope you're joking, Mewtwo has far worse MUs.
 

meleebrawler

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Our worst MU? I hope you're joking, Mewtwo has far worse MUs.
Where does he say that it's his worst? He just thinks it's a disadvantage, which judging by his justifications proves my earlier statement that if you're one of the guys who favours survivability, then of course Bowser will seem to have the edge.

A big deal was made over shadow ball, but in truth it's more than that which makes it more difficult for Bowser to approach.

The walking speed.

Bowser can't walk or move in the air for ****. Dashing is his only speedy approach, everything else is fairly easy to react to.

You can see an example in a Zangief vs. Akuma fight. The latter's walking speed and zoning make it hell for the latter to do anything since Akuma commits very little on his approaches. Even if Zangief can still crush Akuma in no time if he manages to get through, he's heavily reliant on Akuma making a big mistake for that to happen.

Obviously Mewtwo is nowhere near as oppressive as Akuma, nor is Bowser totally inept at approaching or relieving pressure. But even if the margin of error in neutral is smaller on Mewtwo's end, he still has a significant edge by virtue of his projectile and the ability to simply walk or jump away from an uncomfortable position, which IMO goes a long way to counterbalancing Mewtwo's stamina disadvantage. Maybe not enough to put it in his favour, but certainly nothing that can't be overcome with smart play.

You can't just look at Mewtwo's advantages in neutral and say he wins off of that, nor can you also say that with Bowser's weight. You have to look at the whole picture, and that picture is of two characters who can both do nasty things to one another, one of which has an easier time evading, landing hits and gimping while the other has far more bulk and raw power. In the end their strengths and weaknesses mostly cancel each other out.
 
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420quickscoper

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Where does he say that it's his worst? He just thinks it's a disadvantage, which judging by his justifications proves my earlier statement that if you're one of the guys who favours survivability, then of course Bowser will seem to have the edge.

A big deal was made over shadow ball, but in truth it's more than that which makes it more difficult for Bowser to approach.

The walking speed.

Bowser can't walk or move in the air for ****. Dashing is his only speedy approach, everything else is fairly easy to react to.

You can see an example in a Zangief vs. Akuma fight. The latter's walking speed and zoning make it hell for the latter to do anything since Akuma commits very little on his approaches. Even if Zangief can still crush Akuma in no time if he manages to get through, he's heavily reliant on Akuma making a big mistake for that to happen.

Obviously Mewtwo is nowhere near as oppressive as Akuma, nor is Bowser totally inept at approaching or relieving pressure. But even if the margin of error in neutral is smaller on Mewtwo's end, he still has a significant edge by virtue of his projectile and the ability to simply walk or jump away from an uncomfortable position, which IMO goes a long way to counterbalancing Mewtwo's stamina disadvantage. Maybe not enough to put it in his favour, but certainly nothing that can't be overcome with smart play.

You can't just look at Mewtwo's advantages in neutral and say he wins off of that, nor can you also say that with Bowser's weight. You have to look at the whole picture, and that picture is of two characters who can both do nasty things to one another, one of which has an easier time evading, landing hits and gimping while the other has far more bulk and raw power. In the end their strengths and weaknesses mostly cancel each other out.
He mentioned DK, saying DK was M2's worst MU, and then supposes that Bowser may be even worse.

I agree with your points - seems about an even matchup - really depends on who punishes more mistakes.

Since killing Bowser can be a pain, I think edge guarding kills are a good idea. Bowser has a bad recovery and of course Mewtwo has a very dangerous offstage game. Obviously important.
 

LRodC

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Wait, DK being Mewtwo's worst MU? I'm not trying to say it couldn't potentially be disadvantageous as I haven't looked too much into it, but I fail to see how he's harder to handle than Zero Suit Samus at her peak performance or possibly Fox. I think those guys have more advantages versus Mewtwo than DK. I'm not sure of who his worst is, but it's probably one of them. I don't think Sheik is his worst, but it is poor.
 

Aninymouse

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Wait, DK being Mewtwo's worst MU? I'm not trying to say it couldn't potentially be disadvantageous as I haven't looked too much into it, but I fail to see how he's harder to handle than Zero Suit Samus at her peak performance or possibly Fox. I think those guys have more advantages versus Mewtwo than DK. I'm not sure of who his worst is, but it's probably one of them. I don't think Sheik is his worst, but it is poor.
I think ZSS and Fox are both tough for Mewtwo, and for somewhat different reasons. Those two for most advantage over Mewtwo sound about right.

I don't agree that DK is Mewtwo's worst match-up, but I haven't fought a competent DK since the ding-dong became a thing, either.
 

meleebrawler

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I think ZSS and Fox are both tough for Mewtwo, and for somewhat different reasons. Those two for most advantage over Mewtwo sound about right.

I don't agree that DK is Mewtwo's worst match-up, but I haven't fought a competent DK since the ding-dong became a thing, either.
It was undoubtedly Fox when he had his infinite, and probably still is.

ZSS, despite the relative ease she can pull her stunts on Mewtwo due to tallness, still mostly plays a mid-range spacing game that Mewtwo can acquit himself fairly well in. And things like her grab + flip jump attacks can be punished very heavily.

DK is most likely harder than Bowser. While his ding-dong may be less potent (rage prevents it from killing at relevant percents), unlike Bowser he has almost comparable mobility to Mewtwo, which helps him employ his faster, more effective footsies (particularly bair), and is much more difficult to gimp due to how flexible Spinning Kong is in timing and difficult to challenge initially (it's an easy dair spike if used early but that won't happen often if he properly uses his airspeed). Of course DK's disadvantage state is still very bad as he struggles to land and his standard ledge options are probably worse than Mewtwo's, so it's not terrible. It's just harder for Mewtwo to exploit DK's weaknesses than Bowser's.
 
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RayNoire

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Wait, DK being Mewtwo's worst MU? I'm not trying to say it couldn't potentially be disadvantageous as I haven't looked too much into it, but I fail to see how he's harder to handle than Zero Suit Samus at her peak performance or possibly Fox. I think those guys have more advantages versus Mewtwo than DK. I'm not sure of who his worst is, but it's probably one of them. I don't think Sheik is his worst, but it is poor.
Don't want to derail too much, but basically imagine if ZSS had more weight, longer range, and a better grab.

Both have the ability to kill us at an extremely early %, but we're more prepared to deal with ZSS' advantages than we are DK's. Her frame data is only really good on the moves we outrange (unlike DK), it's relatively easy to challenge her on an SH (unlike DK if he RARs). Flip Jump is beatable by our SHAD and I think Usmash? She also has a sizable deadzone on her kill %s, whereas DK has 2 kill throws after Ding Dong %s.

Honestly if we could DI Boost Kick without risk of dying off the top, that MU would be okay.

Bowser and DK are very similar MUs, but Bow Wow is a bit less threatening than Ding Dong, and his mobility and frame data aren't as good as DK. Jab and Side B are really scary though.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Don't want to derail too much, but basically imagine if ZSS had more weight, longer range, and a better grab.

Both have the ability to kill us at an extremely early %, but we're more prepared to deal with ZSS' advantages than we are DK's. Her frame data is only really good on the moves we outrange (unlike DK), it's relatively easy to challenge her on an SH (unlike DK if he RARs). Flip Jump is beatable by our SHAD and I think Usmash? She also has a sizable deadzone on her kill %s, whereas DK has 2 kill throws after Ding Dong %s.

Honestly if we could DI Boost Kick without risk of dying off the top, that MU would be okay.

Bowser and DK are very similar MUs, but Bow Wow is a bit less threatening than Ding Dong, and his mobility and frame data aren't as good as DK. Jab and Side B are really scary though.
I still think most of your MU opinions are wrong. I'm also not sure how you come to your conclusions on a MU but maybe I'll come to understand your thought process one of these days.

ZSS has a much better neutral than DK and also sports better mobility and range than DK. While at the same time killing early or at the same time as DK depending on the stage and what's going on.

Zair from ZSS is a strong neutral move which keeps us out and deals with our approaches really well. On top of zair she has nair and bair both of which are aafe on shield. Bair kills ridiculously early for some strange reason. I haven't played the MU since the new changes to mewtwo but mewtwo wasn't able to keep up with ZSS's mobility. Flip jump and flip jump cancels just made fighting her hell.

There's not much more for me to say though DK can be brutal on us also though. Pre patch the MU may have been worse. But the added mobility helps a lot. Keep in mind you can't challenge DK at all because all of his stuff is intagible and you'll be fine. The biggest problem with DK would be dtilt and jab. Dtilt has intangibilty and trips. Which can mean death or a lot of damage. Jab 1 to grab is a favorite of dk players.

To be on topic the difference between that and bowser stuff is pretty significant. While bowser has intangibilty on his mkves it's not as much as DK. He alsk doesn't have any real set ups into grab. So he's inferior to DK whereas DK is inferior to ZSS. So the MUs shouldn't be that bad for Mewtwo with the exception of ZSS.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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To be on topic the difference between that and bowser stuff is pretty significant. While bowser has intangibilty on his mkves it's not as much as DK. He alsk doesn't have any real set ups into grab. So he's inferior to DK whereas DK is inferior to ZSS. So the MUs shouldn't be that bad for Mewtwo with the exception of ZSS.
Bowser has the same intangibility that DK does. And unlike DK, our jab is intangible, and leads into a dash grab, which you seem to have forgotten. Our least committal poke leads into what is essentially a cargo throw.

And the basis for him saying DK is a bad MU is very simplistic actually. Mewtwo and DK have extremely similar frame data and movement stats, But DK takes about twice as much damage to kill. The characters are "similar" in these regards, but one of them has more "health". And both his combo game and kill setup is as easy as landing a single grab or jab. Bowser has these qualities too, but without the movement stats. Our primary difference from DK is a fantastic OoS punish game against aggressive characters. Mewtwo can approach at melee range, but he doesn't absolutely have to.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Bowser has the same intangibility that DK does. And unlike DK, our jab is intangible, and leads into a dash grab, which you seem to have forgotten. Our least committal poke leads into what is essentially a cargo throw.

And the basis for him saying DK is a bad MU is very simplistic actually. Mewtwo and DK have extremely similar frame data and movement stats, But DK takes about twice as much damage to kill. The characters are "similar" in these regards, but one of them has more "health". And both his combo game and kill setup is as easy as landing a single grab or jab. Bowser has these qualities too, but without the movement stats. Our primary difference from DK is a fantastic OoS punish game against aggressive characters. Mewtwo can approach at melee range, but he doesn't absolutely have to.
I think you're missing the godlike recovery
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I think you're missing the godlike recovery
Who's? Mewtwo? DK? Bowser's is kind of like DK, I suppose. Our hitbox comes out 2 frames later and isn't as disjointed. Plus he can go over the ledge with little chance for punish which is huge. But we have a mashing mechanism that lets us travel about twice the height of DK's. Add a higher double jump than what he has, and we're not as susceptible to gimps. His Up B is better than ours in the air, but we have the better literal recovery distance and ground use on ours. But if you asked me what the big difference was between DK and Bowser, I would still say Bowser's defensive zoning playstyle, thanks to the OoS game. DK is more aggressive because he has no means of long range combat, and is pretty helpless when dealing with shield pressure from Sheik, Fox, etc. It's the biggest picture difference I can think of, since we share range, damage output, KO percents, and punish game.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Bowser has the same intangibility that DK does. And unlike DK, our jab is intangible, and leads into a dash grab, which you seem to have forgotten. Our least committal poke leads into what is essentially a cargo throw.

And the basis for him saying DK is a bad MU is very simplistic actually. Mewtwo and DK have extremely similar frame data and movement stats, But DK takes about twice as much damage to kill. The characters are "similar" in these regards, but one of them has more "health". And both his combo game and kill setup is as easy as landing a single grab or jab. Bowser has these qualities too, but without the movement stats. Our primary difference from DK is a fantastic OoS punish game against aggressive characters. Mewtwo can approach at melee range, but he doesn't absolutely have to.
Taken from kurkganehammer

Dk ftilt angled up intagible frames 9-14
Ftilt non angled intagible 1-25 same with downward tiltes ftilt
Utilt intagible 5-25
Dtilt intagible 1-9
Usmash intagible 12-15
Dsmash intagible 11-14
Fsmash intagible 20-26
Uair 1-10

Bowser
Jab intagible 7-9
Ftilt intagible intagible 10-14
Utilt intagible intangible 12-16
Dtilt intagbile intangible 10-12
Fsmash intagible 20-25
Usmash invicibility 14-27
Uair intagible 3-13

If you look at the amount of frames DK intagibility last for on his moves that trumps bowsers. Some of the intagibility for DK moves start on frame one which means he's not going to get hit out of the move such as bowser would. Considering the speed of DK'S dtilt it's an extremely potent move in neutral to go along with its range ot far out closes bowser's jab. Which start up at the same speed. So despite the intagibility on bowser's jab it doesn't change the fact that DK is superior to bowser when it comes to intagibility. Bowser seems to get the short end of the stick compared to DK. There wasn't anything wrong with what I said if you look at the duration of the intagibility frames of each character and compare the two.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Bowser seems to get the short end of the stick compared to DK. There wasn't anything wrong with what I said if you look at the duration of the intagibility frames of each character and compare the two.
Oh. That's fine, I guess. I can't really imagine a "ha ha! We have more limb intangibility frames than you!" from a DK main. Both characters have moves that act like swords when active. The only move of ours where we're in danger of getting hit before we're intangible is swipe 1 of Dtilt and Fsmash as far as I know. I know for certain Jab and Ftilt don't have this issue at all. You can check it by getting behind a Lucario with high aura in training mode and having him charge aura sphere as you attack through it.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Oh. That's fine, I guess. I can't really imagine a "ha ha! We have more limb intangibility frames than you!" from a DK main. Both characters have moves that act like swords when active. The only move of ours where we're in danger of getting hit before we're intangible is swipe 1 of Dtilt and Fsmash as far as I know. I know for certain Jab and Ftilt don't have this issue at all. You can check it by getting behind a Lucario with high aura in training mode and having him charge aura sphere as you attack through it.
No dk main but I believe that some is good and nore is better.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Who's? Mewtwo? DK? Bowser's is kind of like DK, I suppose. Our hitbox comes out 2 frames later and isn't as disjointed. Plus he can go over the ledge with little chance for punish which is huge. But we have a mashing mechanism that lets us travel about twice the height of DK's. Add a higher double jump than what he has, and we're not as susceptible to gimps. His Up B is better than ours in the air, but we have the better literal recovery distance and ground use on ours. But if you asked me what the big difference was between DK and Bowser, I would still say Bowser's defensive zoning playstyle, thanks to the OoS game. DK is more aggressive because he has no means of long range combat, and is pretty helpless when dealing with shield pressure from Sheik, Fox, etc. It's the biggest picture difference I can think of, since we share range, damage output, KO percents, and punish game.
i was talking about mewtwo's recovery but this is actually really helpful so thanks anyways lol
 

LRodC

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Game 5 of this week's Break Weekly was a Mewtwo vs. Bowser between !Blue! !Blue! and TSB Chaos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvPOOGvDaok#t=12m23s

We can see their strengths and weaknesses against each other play out a lot more in practice.
Man, is it me or does every single commentator always reference Mewtwo's weight when he's in a match, more than any other character in the game? We all know he's light. I'm sick of hearing that in almost every streamed match/set from commentators. Think of other things to say for once.

Anyway, it seems like dodging the grab is essential at high percents. It could've easily went any way. His up throw is truly insane now.
 
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FooltheFlames

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I feel like this match up 55-45 for Mewtwo. What Mewtwo strongly lacks against a large amount of characters is true combos at the higher percents, but with Bowser that is never a problem. But Mewtwo's unfortunate light weight allows Bowser even earlier kills. Both have no problem punishing each other, that's where they're even; But Mewtwo is better with spacing and range, combine this with the fact that Mewtwo has a projectile and Bowser does not, (not counting fire breath as a true projectile) I feel like the MU is slightly more in favor for Mewtwo here.

If only Bowser could finally get a real, decent projectile of his own, then the match up could be square?
 
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