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Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Bowser

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がんばってね!
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:bowser:

General Rules:

  • No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
  • Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.
The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:
  • Character strengths and weaknesses
  • How to effectively approach/deter approaches
  • Off-stage game
  • Positional play
  • Punishes/punishing
  • Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
  • Suggested custom movesets
  • Stage strengths and weaknesses
  • Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]
***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.
 

ShadowKing

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With Bowser being heavy and all he is pretty much combo food for mewtwo.From expirence Mewtwo's bair is a great way to space (including shadowball) great kill options would be a dsmash or usmash sidesmash at the corner of the stage.

Due to Mewtwo's lack of weight he can be killed at 50% but with Mewtwo's new speed and kill power I belive it won't be a problem for Mewtwo to get the kill first.

May I request a Cloud matchup next plz
 

Y2Kay

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This is an annoying battle alright. Mewtwo is good at abusing his lack of landing options with shadow ball and dash attack, but rage bowser can kill me with bow wow combo at 70%. This matchup is probably even. Just don't be greedy like me, and space and punish any on stage landings

:150:
 

meleebrawler

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This is another pretty volatile matchup. On one hand, while Bowser may be very heavy, he gets juggled for days and is gimped pretty easily. On the other, Bowser only needs to land a few solid hits or grabs on Mewtwo to finish him, and his advantage state is no joke with that running speed.

Mewtwo has an easier time in neutral since Bowser struggles to deal with shadow balls due to his poor walk and airspeed, and he's so big that it's easy to get the drop on him with aerials. But you still have to respect the burst mobility he does have.

Overall it's pretty even, maybe slightly in Mewtwo's favour. He has an easier time doing stuff, but Bowser can take more punishment in general spacing contests. Both will do nasty things to one another should a mistake be made.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Mewtwo is much better now. When he came up in our MU discussions in the past, we didn't really care. His speed stats made his approaches laughable, his Uair never killed, and none of his aerials were safe to land with against our OoS Fortress. There's just no way we'd consider this guy threatening as a supposed "glass cannon" character.

The aerials having reduced landing lag is a big deal. We can still punish any aggressive/crossup use of them with Fortress, but that Fair was always difficult to block and leaves little margin for error on the punish. Contrast it to Bair as a way of walling us out. "Oh, Mewtwo is turned away from us, I wonder what short hop aerial he's planning" That 13 frame startup is so long, I'm not afraid of failing to block that.

No opinions yet on actual MU rating, but I'm willing to believe both characters are equally scarier now, and I know for certain this was a 55:45 in favor of bowser before. We're too well equipped to kill Mewtwo at a rate faster than him killing us. So I'll just recap what makes Bowser the king of heavyweights.

- Your shield isn't safe. Between great grabs and a move that breaks shields and sets up an Fsmash kill at 30% damage, we're well versed in shield conditioning with low commital jabs.
- The new Uthrow really is a game changer, but not just for killing. Bowser was a character without any means of comboing. This throw immediately validates our high damage output/high knockback air game. We could always punish with a grab, but never get anything out of it. Now we do.
- Being able to ledge snap from behind with Fortress massively improves the safety of offstage edgeguards. Before we would be left spinning at the ledge like a goon for the move's entire duration, which invites the opponent to turn the situation on us. Not anymore. Runoff Fair is now a safe option. But not as safe as how we...
- Cover ledge options with Fortress. Definitely one of the best moves in this game for this application. The 6 frames startup, huge hitbox and rehit rate allow us to catch every ledge option during it's first frame of vulnerability. The strategy is taken further to cover ledge let go aerials, the opponent's last viable choice. We're prepared for Fortress as soon as we seen them moving with a ledge option, but if they let go, our finger is hovering over shield for a harder punish.
- Our Jab is great. I could talk about it for hours, but the cliffnotes version is: It's got good range and priority, low endlag, safe on shield unless wildly mis-spaced, has great followups like Dash grab, and Mewtwo is specifically disadvantaged for those followups due to his low weight.
- Bowser doesn't have as much trouble landing as people think we do. We're definitely susceptible to combos (and I notice you guys specifically are not Sheik, Luigi, or ZSS), but landing is pretty great as us. If you've ever heard of A-landing, we can do that, but with an aerial command grab. And no special timing is required, the move is always lagless. And if we're truly in danger of the opponent's options for covering us, we can always just drift to the nearest ledge and take our chances there.
 
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meleebrawler

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- Mewtwo isn't really one to rely on his shield, due to his low traction and sub par OOS options. He relies more on evasion with short-hop air dodges and his newly improved mobility. So breaking it isn't going to be common.

- It (uthrow) certainly is. But getting that grab won't be as easy as you think...

- You don't want to go offstage against Mewtwo ever. At best he'll just slip past you with an airdodge or teleport and take the stage, at worst he can counter-gimp you with a bair stage-spike or dair spike.

- Bowser guarding Mewtwo on the ledge is a sticky situation. But Mewtwo can use Confusion to beat shield, or hammer it with a charged shadow ball.

- Yes, it is dangerous to chase Bowser in the air as he's landing. But Mewtwo doesn't need to do that when he has Shadow Ball. And I don't know about a-landing, but if a Mewtwo somehow manages to get hit by a landing flying slam, he should be ashamed at his spacing.

Most importantly... how does Bowser cope with shadow ball zoning? He can punch weaker ones I suppose, but between his poor walk and airspeed he'll have a devil of a time avoiding them, which makes it all the more easier for Mewtwo to bait him into doing something unsafe that can be punished.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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- Mewtwo isn't really one to rely on his shield, due to his low traction and sub par OOS options. He relies more on evasion with short-hop air dodges and his newly improved mobility. So breaking it isn't going to be common.

- It (uthrow) certainly is. But getting that grab won't be as easy as you think...

- You don't want to go offstage against Mewtwo ever. At best he'll just slip past you with an airdodge or teleport and take the stage, at worst he can counter-gimp you with a bair stage-spike or dair spike.

- Bowser guarding Mewtwo on the ledge is a sticky situation. But Mewtwo can use Confusion to beat shield, or hammer it with a charged shadow ball.

- Yes, it is dangerous to chase Bowser in the air as he's landing. But Mewtwo doesn't need to do that when he has Shadow Ball. And I don't know about a-landing, but if a Mewtwo somehow manages to get hit by a landing flying slam, he should be ashamed at his spacing.

Most importantly... how does Bowser cope with shadow ball zoning? He can punch weaker ones I suppose, but between his poor walk and airspeed he'll have a devil of a time avoiding them, which makes it all the more easier for Mewtwo to bait him into doing something unsafe that can be punished.
Getting grabs won't be easy? Did you miss the part where I mentioned Dash grab as a jab followup? And all the other stuff about jab? And the cute little video clip of pivot grab? Yeah, you can get around people trying to hungrily dash grab you, but we're not talking about this MU in terms of For Glory playstyles. And I forgot about confusion as an aerial command grab for the ledge situation. Such moves are uncommon in Smash, and certainly is something we will have to watch out for. Actual attacks may prove effective here, but our jab and tilts are only a tad faster than confusion. Fortress may have the horizontal disjoint necessary as well, but I cannot say for certain without having tried it.

A lot of people ask me what Bowser will do about projectile zoning when they invite us to their MU discussions. Just how many players are unaware of how effective shielding is? Yes, Bowser is a big target, yes his walking is slow. But keeping this discussion within considerations of Bowsers who are not also terrible players, we won't be hit. We would shield every one, and have time to go into a run between each one. We can also approach with Fire Breath to cancel the small ones and singe Mewtwo. And if we're on a stage with any verticality (any non-FD stage), forget it, we'll go right over or under it on our approach. And if its the full charged version you're so excited about, I'll have to hear how you'll find the time to get that full charge with our running speed, range, and ability to get past your shield. And then I'll remind you how Bowser's weight makes him the single best for surviving a hit from that should it ever happen.

Also, I forgot another point:
-Damage output. Excluding Jab on its own, Uthrow, and typically Fire Breath, our moves deal 10-24% each. And I don't need to tell you how much each percentile means when its Mewtwo getting hit. We have a true kill followup off of a grab starting at 78 (not factoring DI and Rage considerations, but unless we had just died, this number only gets lower with how well we use rage).

So, I want to hear how Mewtwo will take a stock from Bowser at a faster rate than us. I'll give you a hint, we're pretty susceptible to vertical kill moves (we're only the third best at surviving them), and I know at least one of yours was improved. Tell me about how you wrack up your damage while staying safe.
 

ShadowKing

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This is an annoying battle alright. Mewtwo is good at abusing his lack of landing options with shadow ball and dash attack, but rage bowser can kill me with bow wow combo at 70%. This matchup is probably even. Just don't be greedy like me, and space and punish any on stage landings

:150:
I really won't call it annoying because its mostly in mewtwos favor
 

420quickscoper

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I think this matchup mostly revolves around Shadow Ball - hits from Bowser can really rack the damage up, and you don't want to get up throw to up aired at kill percent, so, you usually just want to space Bowser out.

I don't think Bowser has many approach options either, so he's forced to play our game whether he likes that or not. I'm not very knowledgeable about the matchup, but what I'd say is that it's 55:45 in Mewtwo's favor. We have the speed and spacing advantage, and Bowser has the advantage of "if you get hit by me it won't be pretty".
 

super fan bros

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I think the MU is of 60-40 for Bowser.

Bowser can eject just a few strokes, the big hitbox Mewtwo allows Bowser of the combotted (lol), it is more powerful, better capacity to kill, and has better recovery.

After Mewtwo is slightly faster, some combos also, which are even more effective to Bowser, its shadow ball is better than flamethrower Bowser and has less lag than him in his attacks.

For air attacks:

Nair: :4mewtwo:is better
Fair: :4bowser: is better
Bair: :4bowser:is better
Uair: :4bowser:is better
Dair: :4mewtwo:is better

Overall I would say the MU Bowser is in favor of because it has more advantages that Mewtwo has in this MU, but it is not catastrophic to the latter.

MU: 60-40, slightly favored
 

420quickscoper

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I think the MU is of 60-40 for Bowser.

Bowser can eject just a few strokes, the big hitbox Mewtwo allows Bowser of the combotted (lol), it is more powerful, better capacity to kill, and has better recovery.

After Mewtwo is slightly faster, some combos also, which are even more effective to Bowser, its shadow ball is better than flamethrower Bowser and has less lag than him in his attacks.

For air attacks:

Nair: :4mewtwo:is better
Fair: :4bowser: is better
Bair: :4bowser:is better
Uair: :4bowser:is better
Dair: :4mewtwo:is better

Overall I would say the MU Bowser is in favor of because it has more advantages that Mewtwo has in this MU, but it is not catastrophic to the latter.

MU: 60-40, slightly favored
No, just no.
You're just so wrong.

Bowser can't kill Mewtwo in a few strokes, that's so much of an exaggeration.

By the way, did you just say that Bowser has better recovery than Mewtwo? If you meant something else, well, okay. But if you didn't, you are completely wrong. That's a fact.

Mewtwo isn't just faster - he's faster than Bowser in pretty much every single way. He has better air speed, better dash speed, and better frame data as well.
Mewtwo doesn't have a few combos, he has a lot and I take for granted that Bowser is one of the easiest to pull all this on. So, who's the real damage builder here?

Bowser can't approach Mewtwo because he can't do anything about Shadow Ball camping.

Mewtwo's nair is better, can't disagree.
Bowser's fair is better? Hell. No. That's just ridiculous. Bowser's may have more range to it, but they do the same damage. Thing is, Mewtwo's is better in general because it's safe on shield, it has a plethora of true combos and can kill pretty well. So that's ridiculous.

Bowser's back air maybe better, but, Mewtwo's back air isn't much worse at all. Back air is a great move, and so is Bowser's.

I don't have to go over down air or up air.

Mewtwo wins the aerial set game.

Mewtwo has the speed, spacing and combo advantage over Bowser. There's not much Bowser can do.

It can be a difficult matchup for Mewtwo, but, still, I feel like it's in Mewtwo's favor.

55:45, Mewtwo's favor. With practice, 60:40 Mewtwo's favor.
 

ShadowKing

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I think the MU is of 60-40 for Bowser.

Bowser can eject just a few strokes, the big hitbox Mewtwo allows Bowser of the combotted (lol), it is more powerful, better capacity to kill, and has better recovery.

After Mewtwo is slightly faster, some combos also, which are even more effective to Bowser, its shadow ball is better than flamethrower Bowser and has less lag than him in his attacks.

For air attacks:

Nair: :4mewtwo:is better
Fair: :4bowser: is better
Bair: :4bowser:is better
Uair: :4bowser:is better
Dair: :4mewtwo:is better

Overall I would say the MU Bowser is in favor of because it has more advantages that Mewtwo has in this MU, but it is not catastrophic to the latter.

MU: 60-40, slightly favored
Theres no way bowsers fair and bair are better then Mewtwo.Mewtwo has longer range.Yes Bowser is stronger but is slower and can be evaded
 

super fan bros

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No, just no.
You're just so wrong.

Bowser can't kill Mewtwo in a few strokes, that's so much of an exaggeration.

By the way, did you just say that Bowser has better recovery than Mewtwo? If you meant something else, well, okay. But if you didn't, you are completely wrong. That's a fact.

Mewtwo isn't just faster - he's faster than Bowser in pretty much every single way. He has better air speed, better dash speed, and better frame data as well.
Mewtwo doesn't have a few combos, he has a lot and I take for granted that Bowser is one of the easiest to pull all this on. So, who's the real damage builder here?

Bowser can't approach Mewtwo because he can't do anything about Shadow Ball camping.

Mewtwo's nair is better, can't disagree.
Bowser's fair is better? Hell. No. That's just ridiculous. Bowser's may have more range to it, but they do the same damage. Thing is, Mewtwo's is better in general because it's safe on shield, it has a plethora of true combos and can kill pretty well. So that's ridiculous.

Bowser's back air maybe better, but, Mewtwo's back air isn't much worse at all. Back air is a great move, and so is Bowser's.

I don't have to go over down air or up air.

Mewtwo wins the aerial set game.

Mewtwo has the speed, spacing and combo advantage over Bowser. There's not much Bowser can do.

It can be a difficult matchup for Mewtwo, but, still, I feel like it's in Mewtwo's favor.

55:45, Mewtwo's favor. With practice, 60:40 Mewtwo's favor.
If Bowser, can kill in a few attacks Mewtwo. You're aware that Mewtwo is the second lightest game character? (barely heavier than Jigglypuff). What is already a serious disadvantage especially against Bowser that easily kills.

When I said that Bowser had a better recovery, I was referring only to b up since teleportation Mewtwo not going that far.

This is true but overall it is a bit faster than him in these attributes. Yes but it is not insurmountable Shadow Ball and he can dodge the worst.

The Fair of Bowser has a longer range and can automatically cancel. So yes, the Fair of Bowser is better

With such advantages, Bowser has the MU in his favour (albeit by a small margin)
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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You should have gotten a picture of Fox lasers, since you don't seem to have a grasp on what character you're playing as. On what planet can Mewtwo wrack up 150% damage safely with uncharged shadow balls? That's not a Matchup analysis.

I expected something better with the OP of this thread. Why even ask for the other guys' input?
 

Y2Kay

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If Bowser, can kill in a few attacks Mewtwo. You're aware that Mewtwo is the second lightest game character? (barely heavier than Jigglypuff).)
You are aware that Bowser is one of the biggest characters in the game, with no way to land or deal with projectiles, right? Let's not talk down to people please, we all know how light Mewtwo is, ok?
When I said that Bowser had a better recovery, I was referring only to b up since teleportation Mewtwo not going that far.
why bother mentioning that when mewtwo also has a super high mid air jump and a third jump in the form of Confusion?
You should have gotten a picture of Fox lasers, since you don't seem to have a grasp on what character you're playing as. On what planet can Mewtwo wrack up 150% damage safely with uncharged shadow balls?
Because bowser can't do anything about it but shield. Sounds like a reliable way to deal damage to me.

:150:
 
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Spikezillian

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Disclaimer: I would love the experts of the matchup to prove me wrong. What I am going to say is not going to be perfect, I've only fought a few Bowsers in my day. This is simply my knowledge of Mewtwo being put in perspective of what I know fighting a Bowser.

Rather than talking about everything in a bunched up paragraph, I'm going to break it down to a comparison between some very relevant mechanics between the characters, such as movement speed, recovery, and projectile game. I will end the post with my opinion on the matchup in conclusion. This is simply to help contribute to the forum post and not to be an end all post, take this (practically subjective) post with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I compare moves here. I am not comparing a nair versus another nair literally attacking each other, I'm comparing the practical use of a nair versus any move or situation in the game, VERSUS the same thing for the other character. Please don't confuse the two.

Mechanic/Move/Etc - Character in favour

Movement Speed - Mewtwo
Mewtwo is very fast with the new buff, and it makes a few interesting adjustments. The ability to react and take action on an opponents mistake is much more possible with this speed, and moves like up smash on platforms can be pulled off as a punish more often on opponent who are silly enough to not tech on said platform on the other end of the stage. Movement speed in general brings more situational options, but it can also catch your opponent off guard. Bowser is honestly pretty quick, but Mewtwo is faster and makes use of it much better.

Recovery - Mewtwo
An outstanding jump, a fantastic side b for flying above annoying edge-guarding smash attacks and other shenanigans, plus the ability to go under some stages, then a really smooth up b that also can dodge certain situations out of your favour. Bowser has a terrible mid-air jump, and his up b just isnt quite good enough vertically.

Weight - Bowser
Mewtwo unfortunately has a weight problem -- He needs more McDonalds in his diet apparently. Though he does have the ability to get out of certain combos from some opponents, Bowser doesnt exactly have to worry about his combo potential in order to hurt Mewtwo. Mewtwo dies pretty early and his floaty exterior makes him easy to prepare for, even when fast falling back to the stage from high up. Bowser doesnt die for a while and his weight only really affects his recovery, since his move speed is actually decent for a heavy character.

Ability to Punish - Tied
Up for debate. I am aware Bowser gains a lot of his potential from punish, but I know very little about such info on Bowser so its not fair for me to speak.

Spacing - Mewtwo
Bowser isnt equipped well for range, but he does have a few options such as neutral b and fair. and that's why he can easily be considered combo food over some of the other heavy-weights. However, Mewtwo has a great group of moves to pull off to keep the opponent at bay, and even has some good camping moves. Moves like Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw and Confusion are fantastic for making sure your opponent keeps their distance.

Now its time to talk about individual moves.
Jab - Tied
Bowser and Mewtwo use their jabs in specific ways that make it very different to compare. Bowser can use it to stop some projectiles, and get out of some painful situations, while Mewtwo uses it to set up for throws, command grabs and again, getting out of painful situations. I think this is up for debate, to be honest. As far as I know, Bowser uses jab more often than Mewtwo, but I know Mewtwo jab has quite a few uses for set ups, so Im gunna leave it as a tie for now.

Down Tilt - Tied
Again, both characters use this move for several reasons and both of them use them a lot. Mewtwo uses it for crazy good range, throwing someone into the air for strings, and as a very fast poke. Bowser can use it as an extremely useful edge-guarding tool, and as a fast and strong poke. I'll leave this up for debate, personally I think Mewtwo is in favour but that could potentially be bias.

Side Tilt - Bowser
Bowser is in favour simply because he gets more percent. Mewtwo does get more range.

Up Tilt - Mewtwo
Bowser's Up Tilt is honestly pretty bad when you look at frame data and hitboxes vs Mewtwo's. UTilt starts at frame 11 for Bowser, frame 8 for Mewtwo. Damage is 9 for Bowser, and a max of 6 for Mewtwo, which would be better if the range was larger for Bowser. The FAF is 41 for Bowser, and 30 for Mewtwo. Hands down, Mewtwo has it better, and will most likely use it in more situations.

Dash - Mewtwo
You might notice a growing trend here. Both characters have similar damage output and frame data for each of these moves, and both moves go a pretty good distance too. But that FAF on Bowser... 56 frames. Almost a whole second before another move is ready. That is slightly more than triple the active frames on said move. Mewtwo is not nearly as detrimental, at 39 frames. Plus the angle the dash makes an opponent fly is debatably better on Mewtwo's side than Bowser.

Neutral Special - Mewtwo
Mewtwo can camp Bowser since Bowser relies on a lot of your mistakes, allowing Mewtwo to charge his shadow ball more often than most other characters in the entire game. Bowser may have flames, but its clear that Mewtwo is the winner here.... Not to mention Bowser cant stop the larger shadow balls from coming at him and his jump is too bad to jump over it unless hes real quick.

Side Special - Bowser
This is interesting. Both characters have a command grab, but Bowser will get much more out of it than Mewtwo. While Mewtwo can use it as a recovery method, and a way to get out of sticky situations, Bowser can use it to kill, which Mewtwo really cant do much of with his command grab.

Down Special - Bowser
Let's be honest, unless you're playing doubles, you probably won't use down special with Mewtwo almost ever. Maybe once per game at most. Bowser does have a lot of end lag, sure, but he can cancel it on ledges and can use it as a surprise attack on opponents to kill.

Up Special - Mewtwo
Although Bowser can up-b out of shield, Mewtwo can recover higher and he can use it to get out of edge-guarding shenanigans, which helps add a new layer of freshness to his options.

Nair - Mewtwo
Bowser has a nair? No but seriously, it isnt the best nair in the world, it doesnt really have a bunch of opportunity there. Mewtwo on the other hand, can use it in a variety of ways. Send people into the air, send people right in front of you on your way down, etc. Hands down, Mewtwo has a more practical nair.

Fair - Tied
Both characters really have a good fair, and as far to my knowledge put them to similar use. Mewtwo does have a nice use of being able to combo the move into itself early percents, though. If someone could tell me the kill% of Mewtwo's fair then that would be great, I honestly have no idea lmfao. I do know that Bowser has a pretty good fair though, hence why I dont want to right out and say its not as good. Up for debate, guys.

Dair - Mewtwo
Both characters make some use out of their down aerials, but Mewtwo won't suicide from the move, nor will he be suffering huge endlag after said move. However, one thing to note is the hitbox for Dair on Mewtwo isnt really that long, so that kinda sucks. But it's still a good attack overall, and honestly even if it doesnt spike, it has a pretty powerful upwards knockback hitbox regardless. Bowser also lacks a lot of horizontal control while using his Dair.

Uair - Tied
Another one that's hard to comment on. Believe it or not, Bowser's up air is not exactly strong, not to mention it lacks some range. It still would've been better than Mewtwo's up air, if it wasnt for the latest patch making his up air relevant by a pretty big degree. I'm pretty sure you can even use it as a kill move at higher percents now, usually when you catch people on platforms. To be fair, I use it more in competitive play than before now, so it could be in Mewtwos favor, but I'm gunna leave this one up to debate as well.

Bair - Bowser
Mewtwo has a pretty good back air actually, but its not very fast and its not too powerful even at high percents, since the base of his tail is basically the only relevant kill option. Bowser has some good range on his bair, and not only that, it kills pretty early, being his strongest aerial. It comes out at frame 9, which is not bad either, and I guess this is a good time to say his moves have pretty bad FAF in the air but thanfully the autocancel frames can be helpful, letting you land and shield 14 frames earlier than waiting for your FAF, in bair's case.

F Smash - Bowser
Both of these characters suffer from pretty laggy smash attacks, but Bowser gets much more rewards for his risky business in this category. I should mention Mewtwo has a nicer F Smash now than pre-patch, since it barely hit anyone half the time before, with the bigger hitbox its actually not bad. Bowser on the other hand, does not care. If he can catch you off guard, he will destroy you. Well, at early percents compared to other characters anyways.

D Smash - Mewtwo
Both characters have a pretty good dair, but Mewtwo can take advantage of it more often. Bowser basically uses up b out of shield instead of this move (as far as I know, if I am wrong about this please correct me), and Mewtwo doesnt really have a great replacement for this move other than maybe F Smash which doesnt have the same KB. Mewtwo down smash is honestly super strong, and isnt all that slow, plus it will hit the smaller characters, which the almighty up smash will not. So, this is a great move in terms of usage and power.

Up Smash - Mewtwo
I think it is undeniable when I say that Mewtwo has one of the best up smashes in the entire game. Not only is it really good for catching people who jump off the ledge, not only is it good for catching people on platforms in some stages, not only does it troll all the tall characters incredibly hard, it also kills pretty early considering most characters nowadays can't really offer the same level of vertical KB on their smash attacks. Plus, it's fun to catch Peach players who float cancel just barely overtop of me and I up smash them to oblivion rather than up tilting or something.
Sigh, yes I should probably talk about Bowser up smash too. It isnt exactly that bad, but it isnt very good either. It has a bit of start-up, in which the first hitbox frame is 16. At the very least, the move has awesome invincibility frames, from 14-27, nearly a quarter of a second. However, its really slow to finish, and the payoff is almost not worth it, since it kills at around the same time as Bair and with some more percent racked up, you could do better with dtilt or even dair. Even down b might be more worth it for you. Bottom line, Mewtwo has a more useful up smash for a few good reasons.

Throws - Mewtwo
Honestly, both characters have some pretty nice throws, with Bowser having 3 throws that could help seal the deal near the edge of the stage at higher percents, and Mewtwo having a variety of throws for every situation. But that is what makes the difference here: While Bowser does have some great fun with his up throw, Mewtwo has an outstanding down throw which can chain into up smash on some characters, a fair that can rack up damage pretty well, a back throw that is surprisingly useful near the edge of the stage, and the once terrifying up throw which is still pretty good today, being able to finish medium weights off at about 125% give or take. Mewtwo has a great variety of throws which makes his grab more relevant.

As such, I'm going to go on a whim and say Mewtwo has a better grab since both characters have nearly identical grabs and Mewtwo has the throws that really make sense of it all.

Final Thoughts:
This is where things can get very biased, but please bear with me. Bowser does seem to have some fantastic attributes in certain categories, presumably his KB on most of his moves and his ability to attack out of a lot of situations, plus having hands of steel apparently. However, Mewtwo is a bit more versatile in other categories and that can make or break the difference for a match between the two characters. Bowser needs range, and Mewtwo is making sure Bowser never gets close enough to him to get destroyed at early percent due to the light weight. However, Bowser can devour a lot of characters simply from the use of rage, and this is a huge factor I glossed over most of my study. Mewtwo has some pretty good moves to kill Bowser with, but Bowser could use his damn good command grab and his bair for some early kill shenanigans once Bowser has hit the 120+% mark.

Even though rage plays a role in this right, and Bowser has some pretty good tools to keep people off-stage such as fair and dtilt, I still think that Mewtwo has the potential to beat Bowser more often than not. His moves are punishable, sure, but Bowser lacks the speed to do this, basically leaving him to spam dash as a punish move, which isnt really much of anything... Or up b out of shield, which is actually really good against Mewtwo, as well as other characters. Plus, Bowser's flame breath can be a hilariously stupid gimp on Mewtwo if he decides to recover low for some reason. At the very least, Mewtwo has some crazy good mobility and recovery compared to Bowser and this makes some difference with the opportunity to space out Bowser and camp the crap out of him with Shadow Ball.

I think overall, the match-up is definitely something like 55:45 in favor of Mewtwo. If Mewtwo gets buffed in some places where it helps, or if Bowsers gets a really unfortunate nerf to some of his most useful moves like fair, dtilt, jab or his command grab, I would go as far to say Mewtwo would be 60:40. I think Bowser should not be the choice to fight Mewtwo if you felt the need to switch, there are a handful of characters that would have a better match-up than him.
 
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ShadowKing

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Disclaimer: I would love the experts of the matchup to prove me wrong. What I am going to say is not going to be perfect, I've only fought a few Bowsers in my day. This is simply my knowledge of Mewtwo being put in perspective of what I know fighting a Bowser.

Rather than talking about everything in a bunched up paragraph, I'm going to break it down to a comparison between some very relevant mechanics between the characters, such as movement speed, recovery, and projectile game. I will end the post with my opinion on the matchup in conclusion. This is simply to help contribute to the forum post and not to be an end all post, take this (practically subjective) post with a grain of salt.

Mechanic/Move/Etc - Character in favour

Movement Speed - Mewtwo
Mewtwo is very fast with the new buff, and it makes a few interesting adjustments. The ability to react and take action on an opponents mistake is much more possible with this speed, and moves like up smash on platforms can be pulled off as a punish more often on opponent who are silly enough to not tech on said platform on the other end of the stage. Movement speed in general brings more situational options, but it can also catch your opponent off guard. Bowser is honestly pretty quick, but Mewtwo is faster and makes use of it much better.

Recovery - Mewtwo
An outstanding jump, a fantastic side b for flying above annoying edge-guarding smash attacks and other shenanigans, plus the ability to go under some stages, then a really smooth up b that also can dodge certain situations out of your favour. Bowser has a terrible mid-air jump, and his up b just isnt quite good enough vertically.

Weight - Bowser
Mewtwo unfortunately has a weight problem -- He needs more McDonalds in his diet apparently. Though he does have the ability to get out of certain combos from some opponents, Bowser doesnt exactly have to worry about his combo potential in order to hurt Mewtwo. Mewtwo dies pretty early and his floaty exterior makes him easy to prepare for, even when fast falling back to the stage from high up. Bowser doesnt die for a while and his weight only really affects his recovery, since his move speed is actually decent for a heavy character.

Ability to Punish - Tied
Up for debate. I am aware Bowser gains a lot of his potential from punish, but I know very little about such info on Bowser so its not fair for me to speak.

Now its time to talk about individual moves.
Jab - Tied
Bowser and Mewtwo use their jabs in specific ways that make it very different to compare. Bowser can use it to stop some projectiles, and get out of some painful situations, while Mewtwo uses it to set up for throws, command grabs and again, getting out of painful situations. I think this is up for debate, to be honest. As far as I know, Bowser uses jab more often than Mewtwo, but I know Mewtwo jab has quite a few uses for set ups, so Im gunna leave it as a tie for now.

Down Tilt - Tied
Again, both characters use this move for several reasons and both of them use them a lot. Mewtwo uses it for crazy good range, throwing someone into the air for strings, and as a very fast poke. Bowser can use it as an extremely useful edge-guarding tool, and as a fast and strong poke. I'll leave this up for debate, personally I think Mewtwo is in favour but that could potentially be bias.

Side Tilt - Bowser
Bowser is in favour simply because he gets more percent. Mewtwo does get more range.

Up Tilt - Mewtwo
Bowser's Up Tilt is honestly pretty bad when you look at frame data and hitboxes vs Mewtwo's. UTilt starts at frame 11 for Bowser, frame 8 for Mewtwo. Damage is 9 for Bowser, and a max of 6 for Mewtwo, which would be better if the range was larger for Bowser. The FAF is 41 for Bowser, and 30 for Mewtwo. Hands down, Mewtwo has it better, and will most likely use it in more situations.

Dash - Mewtwo
You might notice a growing trend here. Both characters have similar damage output and frame data for each of these moves, and both moves go a pretty good distance too. But that FAF on Bowser... 56 frames. Almost a whole second before another move is ready. That is slightly more than triple the active frames on said move. Mewtwo is not nearly as detrimental, at 39 frames. Plus the angle the dash makes an opponent fly is debatably better on Mewtwo's side than Bowser.

Neutral Special - Mewtwo
Mewtwo can camp Bowser since Bowser relies on a lot of your mistakes, allowing Mewtwo to charge his shadow ball more often than most other characters in the entire game. Bowser may have flames, but its clear that Mewtwo is the winner here.... Not to mention Bowser cant stop the larger shadow balls from coming at him and his jump is too bad to jump over it unless hes real quick.

Side Special - Bowser
This is interesting. Both characters have a command grab, but Bowser will get much more out of it than Mewtwo. While Mewtwo can use it as a recovery method, and a way to get out of sticky situations, Bowser can use it to kill, which Mewtwo really cant do much of with his command grab.

Down Special - Bowser
Let's be honest, unless you're playing doubles, you probably won't use down special with Mewtwo almost ever. Maybe once per game at most. Bowser does have a lot of end lag, sure, but he can cancel it on ledges and can use it as a surprise attack on opponents to kill.

-- Leaving this for now. Ill come back soon with more once I have time. Too busy right now. --
Nice list I agree with all except for the side special I believe Mewtwo wins that.Yes Bowser can kill but mewtwos can counter it
 

420quickscoper

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If Bowser, can kill in a few attacks Mewtwo. You're aware that Mewtwo is the second lightest game character? (barely heavier than Jigglypuff). What is already a serious disadvantage especially against Bowser that easily kills.

When I said that Bowser had a better recovery, I was referring only to b up since teleportation Mewtwo not going that far.

This is true but overall it is a bit faster than him in these attributes. Yes but it is not insurmountable Shadow Ball and he can dodge the worst.

The Fair of Bowser has a longer range and can automatically cancel. So yes, the Fair of Bowser is better

With such advantages, Bowser has the MU in his favour (albeit by a small margin)
Bowser easily kills, but he still sorta has problems killing, and if you're playing safe as Mewtwo, how is he going to get the kill?

Mewtwo's recovery goes very far if you combine his Confusion or Teleport. Or just double jump. His air dodge is very good, as well.

The fair of Bowser has a long range, and can cancel, sure. You also ignored my points saying that Mewtwo's fair has a ton of true combos to it. Oh, and Mewtwo's fair is safe on shield as well. Oh, and it kills too.

Man. Mewtwo's light weight isn't as much of a problem if you're safe.
 

Nobie

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Are you guys seriously comparing up tilt vs. up tilt, etc? What does that even prove? In what universe are those moves going to fight against each other?

Mewtwo has to space out Bowser while aware of the intangibility of his limbs. At the same time, Mewtwo's tail is quite long, and if Mewtwo gets Bowser in the air, it won't be easy for him to land. While a smart Bowser won't be trying to constantly land with an attack, any whiffed move will probably get met by a Shadow Ball to the face.

Let's not forget that Confusion is a move. I'm surprised nobody's brought it up for beating Shields or taking advantage of overextensions.
 

ShadowKing

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Are you guys seriously comparing up tilt vs. up tilt, etc? What does that even prove? In what universe are those moves going to fight against each other?

Mewtwo has to space out Bowser while aware of the intangibility of his limbs. At the same time, Mewtwo's tail is quite long, and if Mewtwo gets Bowser in the air, it won't be easy for him to land. While a smart Bowser won't be trying to constantly land with an attack, any whiffed move will probably get met by a Shadow Ball to the face.

Let's not forget that Confusion is a move. I'm surprised nobody's brought it up for beating Shields or taking advantage of overextensions.
I actually have I think a few posts up mentioned how mewtwos side special can beat bowsers side special
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Are you guys seriously comparing up tilt vs. up tilt, etc? What does that even prove? In what universe are those moves going to fight against each other?
Yeah, really. This is a matchup thread. Not a moveset comparison. And I'm still waiting for some kind of battle strategy for Mewtwo. Literally any reason why he would have this supposed advantage against Bowser that outweighs the cons of fighting him that I provided.

I actually have I think a few posts up mentioned how mewtwos side special can beat bowsers side special
What exactly do you mean by "beat". Do you mean range? Why am I using a move outside of its effective range? Speed? Flying Slam is Frame 8. Your move deals some damage, mine can outright win a match if I'm a stock ahead.
 

ShadowKing

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Yeah, really. This is a matchup thread. Not a moveset comparison. And I'm still waiting for some kind of battle strategy for Mewtwo. Literally any reason why he would have this supposed advantage against Bowser that outweighs the cons of fighting him that I provided.



What exactly do you mean by "beat". Do you mean range? Why am I using a move outside of its effective range? Speed? Flying Slam is Frame 8. Your move deals some damage, mine can outright win a match if I'm a stock ahead.
Sir at the moment you don't make sense sry
 

meleebrawler

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Mewtwo's strategy is abusing the fact he has an effective projectile while Bowser doesn't, as well as having airspeed and walking.
Literally any time Bowser gets swept off his feet is an opportunity for a trap or shadow ball charge, whether it happens via tilt or throw. Bowser's huge size also makes him highly susceptible to Mewtwo's aerial approaches, and makes dodging baby shadow balls in the air tough, which is bad news since they can hit-confirm into things, especially offstage. Bowser can't abuse Mewtwo's tall size to nearly the same degree, again due to his sluggishness. It also makes Confusion more dangerous than it would be otherwise, since Bowser can't easily escape pressure afterwards, especially with platforms.

Simply put, the burden of approaching is always on Bowser, and he often has to make unsafe moves to do so which Mewtwo can capitalize on.

That Bowser can inflict comparable damage to Mewtwo on a punish as well as being able to take more punishment in a spacing contest does offset Mewtwo's edges in neutral enough to make it close to even. I guess opinions on who wins this depends on whether you value performance in neutral or survivability.
 

Zarxrax

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I was fighting a really good bowser for a few rounds tonight. One thing I noticed is that if you trade attacks in the air, mewtwo is probably on the losing end. Bowser also has some effective tools against defensive players. If he gets a single grab on you, that could easily take you straight to kill percentages, with the powerful follow-ups that bowser has now. Also, don't ever try to shield his down b attack, as it can destroy your shield in one hit.

I think the matchup is pretty even, or slightly in mewtwos favor. But the old mantra of "don't get hit" really applies here.
 

RoyIsOurBoy_TTG

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If Bowser, can kill in a few attacks Mewtwo. You're aware that Mewtwo is the second lightest game character? (barely heavier than Jigglypuff). What is already a serious disadvantage especially against Bowser that easily kills.

When I said that Bowser had a better recovery, I was referring only to b up since teleportation Mewtwo not going that far.

This is true but overall it is a bit faster than him in these attributes. Yes but it is not insurmountable Shadow Ball and he can dodge the worst.

The Fair of Bowser has a longer range and can automatically cancel. So yes, the Fair of Bowser is better

With such advantages, Bowser has the MU in his favour (albeit by a small margin)
Everyone has already debunked this, I just wanted to say: Don't embarrass yourself next time.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Mewtwo's strategy is abusing the fact he has an effective projectile while Bowser doesn't, as well as having airspeed and walking.
Literally any time Bowser gets swept off his feet is an opportunity for a trap or shadow ball charge, whether it happens via tilt or throw. Bowser's huge size also makes him highly susceptible to Mewtwo's aerial approaches, and makes dodging baby shadow balls in the air tough, which is bad news since they can hit-confirm into things, especially offstage. Bowser can't abuse Mewtwo's tall size to nearly the same degree, again due to his sluggishness. It also makes Confusion more dangerous than it would be otherwise, since Bowser can't easily escape pressure afterwards, especially with platforms.

Simply put, the burden of approaching is always on Bowser, and he often has to make unsafe moves to do so which Mewtwo can capitalize on.

That Bowser can inflict comparable damage to Mewtwo on a punish as well as being able to take more punishment in a spacing contest does offset Mewtwo's edges in neutral enough to make it close to even. I guess opinions on who wins this depends on whether you value performance in neutral or survivability.
This shadow ball again. Let's roll with this theory that my shield cannot block them. My shield is defective, you see. It confirms into 2.5% damage. And mere frames of hitstun if I just ran into it. I'm really not impressed. While it's true that the charge forces our approach, it also places the burden of not being able to fire these things rapidly like you all suggest is so unbeatable. When you have sufficient charge, you want to save it, right? Furthermore, charging and firing is a stationary activity. Mewtwo's new speed stats are wasted if all you want to do is use this move to force the approach. As bad as our Fire Breath is, I can still react to a shadow Ball charge with an aerial Fire Breath to stuff an early release before it reaches me, make you flinch out of your charge, either way I don't feel a risk from this move like I would faster, intangible projectiles from Sheik or Fox.

It's bowser's massive size that lets us beat air approaches with our own tilts. Our limbs are intangible during active hit frames. And we take advantage of large targets as well. Jab followups are more consistent, Bowser Bomb won't whiff the second hit, Flying Slam doesn't miss at point blank, Uthrow followups are more consistent. Your weakness is not unlike ours when it comes to size.

And you need to deal a lot more damage than us while staying safe. We have confirmed kills off of Grabs and optimistic jabs alike after connecting 6-7 normal hits for damage. And what is so scary about confusion? Just double jump out of it. If there's a ledge or solid ground behind me, I still have a standard array of options to fight back or escape.

And hey, I'm not particularly interested in the cumulative Matchup rating here, it's not my character that has ineffectual discussions with troll answers. I'm not going to try to convince anybody that Mewtwo is a bad character, because he isn't. Not so much anymore anyway. But he still has bad matchups and tangible weaknesses that players need to acknowledge. The only characters that do not have bad MUs or weaknesses have their own tier. And you won't progress with Mewtwo without seeing how he stacks up objectively against his competition. So dial back the optimism, do some research, talk about options, rather than just feelings. It makes for a more engaging conversation.

Sir at the moment you don't make sense sry
I really have to tell you what a Bowsercide is...?
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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This shadow ball again. Let's roll with this theory that my shield cannot block them. My shield is defective, you see. It confirms into 2.5% damage. And mere frames of hitstun if I just ran into it. I'm really not impressed. While it's true that the charge forces our approach, it also places the burden of not being able to fire these things rapidly like you all suggest is so unbeatable. When you have sufficient charge, you want to save it, right? Furthermore, charging and firing is a stationary activity. Mewtwo's new speed stats are wasted if all you want to do is use this move to force the approach. As bad as our Fire Breath is, I can still react to a shadow Ball charge with an aerial Fire Breath to stuff an early release before it reaches me, make you flinch out of your charge, either way I don't feel a risk from this move like I would faster, intangible projectiles from Sheik or Fox.

It's bowser's massive size that lets us beat air approaches with our own tilts. Our limbs are intangible during active hit frames. And we take advantage of large targets as well. Jab followups are more consistent, Bowser Bomb won't whiff the second hit, Flying Slam doesn't miss at point blank, Uthrow followups are more consistent. Your weakness is not unlike ours when it comes to size.

And you need to deal a lot more damage than us while staying safe. We have confirmed kills off of Grabs and optimistic jabs alike after connecting 6-7 normal hits for damage. And what is so scary about confusion? Just double jump out of it. If there's a ledge or solid ground behind me, I still have a standard array of options to fight back or escape.

And hey, I'm not particularly interested in the cumulative Matchup rating here, it's not my character that has ineffectual discussions with troll answers. I'm not going to try to convince anybody that Mewtwo is a bad character, because he isn't. Not so much anymore anyway. But he still has bad matchups and tangible weaknesses that players need to acknowledge. The only characters that do not have bad MUs or weaknesses have their own tier. And you won't progress with Mewtwo without seeing how he stacks up objectively against his competition. So dial back the optimism, do some research, talk about options, rather than just feelings. It makes for a more engaging conversation.



I really have to tell you what a Bowsercide is...?
I would say that charged SB is the way to go in this MU. While bowser is heavy mewtwo kill power is pretty good. You'll survive uthrow longer than you should. But Usmash is extremely potent here. As will be fair in killing you early. Mewtwo has a very strong edgeguard juggle and combo game. Which I would think would spell trouble for Bowser. I haven't played the MU in a while so I'm unable to give more insight since bo th characters were buffed. However, I don't believe that mewtwo loses this MU.

Yes he dies early but he can also kill early. I think bowser's bair and grab stuff are the things which mewtwo should gear the most. Maybe dtilt at the edge. I have seen the MU played bye LoF Blue and TSB Chaos. I think Chaos takes the matches when they play. Other than that I haven't seen the MU recently.
 

Dr Dank

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I feel that the matchup is a pretty close one. Mewtwo has the ability to wall out bowser somewhat with projectiles and some decent ranged quick(ish) moves, which is pretty large for a character who's game revolves around getting close and poking/grabbing. But at the same time, Bowser seriously punishes Mewtwo for being light and large, which is a HUGE deal in my opinion, and the sole balancing factor in the matchup when you consider things such as mewtwos quicker moves and projectiles.

I'd say the matchup is roughly 55-45 in mewtwo's favour. But naturally I could be wrong there.
 

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Barring expert use and timing on Mewtwo's down b, Bowser wins the matchup in my opinion. You guys are really overrating shadow ball here. Bowser players do nothing but approach projectile users all day long, and Mewtwo is far from the most frustrating projectile character to approach. We're used to maintaining a range in the neutral close enough to punish unwise projectile spamming. In my experience Mewtwo loses air to air unless you're throwing a bair out. Mewtwo's aerial speed doesn't matter anyway, since Bowser is fast enough to keep up on the ground.

Side b and teleport gimmicks for landing are cute but punishable if you use them once too often, and Mewtwo doesn't have a great way to get above the ledge. I'm not exactly sure how a ledge drop side b interacts with a Bowser up b, but given the frame data involved and my experience playing Mewtwo players, I'm going to say it won't work. Ledge drop up air to get some space and I'll be dunking you with an onstage dair next time you try it.

Pre-patch, I'd have put the matchup in Bowser's favor, and now Mewtwo is done at 80 off the top instead of 80 off the edge of the stage. Mewtwo is a bit better now too, but... wait did I see a comparison of utilts earlier? Guys, I play Mewtwo as a secondary and it's pretty obvious his utilt is garbage. Bowser's utilt actually hits things consistently and kills at higher percents, give me a break... but I digress. Anyway it'll take a lot of tricks and good play to beat Bowser. Specifically, escaping out of disadvantage states. If you want to win the match you'll have to play safe and tricky.

You know, this thread makes me think that character matchup discussions should involve some of the players from each character board fighting each other and writing their discussions and comments with the battles fresh in their memory. It'd cure some of what's ailing us here. Not that I'm in a position to be a prime candidate for that at the moment...
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Just wanted to post the videos I was talking about.

GF:
https://youtu.be/6X3vwNTtV8M
https://youtu.be/F72vxVTHpEA

WF: (Chaos switches to mario afterwards)
https://youtu.be/GOJTr3SN6B8

This should probably be used as a starting point for talking about the MU. Umm I'd suggest you turn off the volume the commentator is horrible and likes to scream and curse a lot because jaxel doesn't care about esports stuff. But it's pretty off putting to me.
 

Browny

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Lol this thread is terrible, sorry bowser mains you had to be subjected to this.

Sideb is frustrating to deal with. Honestly I feel like bowser does win this, but Shadowball is still going to make bowsers life quite sad. He literally can not land against it. Go to FD, have some semblance of a reaction time, and you should realistically be doing 60%+ every single stock through shadowballs for free.
 

ShadowKing

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No no you don't but next time just say Bowsercide and what I mean is is that mewtwos confusion beats bowsers side special
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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The main problem that Mewtwo faces against Bowser is the fact that Bowser hits hard, and can wipe out one of Mewtwo's lives rather quickly if it's too careless. And of course, Bowser is super heavy, so KOing him quickly won't be easy for Mewtwo.

While I don't know the match-up enough to make any score inputs, this is a risky match-up for Mewtwo, since it can get slaughtered quite easily by Bowser's raw power, and its only long-ranged attack is Shadow Ball, which is easily shielded if the Bowser player sees it coming. Confusion may have its uses against Flying Slam, but from what I've seen, Flying Slam seems to execute faster than Confusion, so it's not exactly a fool-proof move. I could be wrong though.
 

Browny

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Full Charge Shadowball fired from neutral should delete Mewtwo from peoples games.

As long as the Mewtwo is smart when using it as Bowser is landing, he cant dodge it. They can see it coming all they want, bowser is too big and too slow in the air to avoid it and attempting to sideb on landing is going to get hit by it. Mewtwo has such a huge frame window to ensure it hits.

Mewtwo cant avoid dying relatively early to the flying slam, and Bowser cant avoid shadow ball unless you miss. Its literally the same as missing bowsers sideb, theres kind of no excuse for it.
 

ShadowKing

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The main problem that Mewtwo faces against Bowser is the fact that Bowser hits hard, and can wipe out one of Mewtwo's lives rather quickly if it's too careless. And of course, Bowser is super heavy, so KOing him quickly won't be easy for Mewtwo.

While I don't know the match-up enough to make any score inputs, this is a risky match-up for Mewtwo, since it can get slaughtered quite easily by Bowser's raw power, and its only long-ranged attack is Shadow Ball, which is easily shielded if the Bowser player sees it coming. Confusion may have its uses against Flying Slam, but from what I've seen, Flying Slam seems to execute faster than Confusion, so it's not exactly a fool-proof move. I could be wrong though.
Even through Bowser is heavy Mewtwo is stronger and more "flexible" meaning yes Bowser has raw power but bowsers moves are slow and with the recent buff's for Mewtwo by far he hardly has any landing lag
 

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A lot of this discussion isn't really about the matchup itself, more of a d*** measuring contest of people trying to prove their character is better than the other.

This shadow ball again. Let's roll with this theory that my shield cannot block them. My shield is defective, you see. It confirms into 2.5% damage. And mere frames of hitstun if I just ran into it. I'm really not impressed. While it's true that the charge forces our approach, it also places the burden of not being able to fire these things rapidly like you all suggest is so unbeatable. When you have sufficient charge, you want to save it, right? Furthermore, charging and firing is a stationary activity. Mewtwo's new speed stats are wasted if all you want to do is use this move to force the approach. As bad as our Fire Breath is, I can still react to a shadow Ball charge with an aerial Fire Breath to stuff an early release before it reaches me, make you flinch out of your charge, either way I don't feel a risk from this move like I would faster, intangible projectiles from Sheik or Fox.

It's bowser's massive size that lets us beat air approaches with our own tilts. Our limbs are intangible during active hit frames. And we take advantage of large targets as well. Jab followups are more consistent, Bowser Bomb won't whiff the second hit, Flying Slam doesn't miss at point blank, Uthrow followups are more consistent. Your weakness is not unlike ours when it comes to size.

And you need to deal a lot more damage than us while staying safe. We have confirmed kills off of Grabs and optimistic jabs alike after connecting 6-7 normal hits for damage. And what is so scary about confusion? Just double jump out of it. If there's a ledge or solid ground behind me, I still have a standard array of options to fight back or escape.

And hey, I'm not particularly interested in the cumulative Matchup rating here, it's not my character that has ineffectual discussions with troll answers. I'm not going to try to convince anybody that Mewtwo is a bad character, because he isn't. Not so much anymore anyway. But he still has bad matchups and tangible weaknesses that players need to acknowledge. The only characters that do not have bad MUs or weaknesses have their own tier. And you won't progress with Mewtwo without seeing how he stacks up objectively against his competition. So dial back the optimism, do some research, talk about options, rather than just feelings. It makes for a more engaging conversation.
Nobody's claiming that approaching is impossible for Bowser, just a much bigger hassle for him than it is for Mewtwo or most others. And most of the Mewtwo mains here are in fact quite aware of his weaknesses, and can see that they prevent this matchup from being much better than even. I'd say you're the one who's hyperboling our statements. Mewtwo's bad MUs are characters that can overwhelm him with speed, something Bowser doesn't easily do.

When I say that Mewtwo takes advantage of Bowser's size better than the other way around, I mean in neutral. Mewtwo has much more leeway with his aerials, especially nair which can be used OOS too, and makes usmash all but guaranteed to land on a grounded Bowser. All Bowser really gets is slightly easier to land fairs and some more consistency in followups, not bad, but it pales in comparison to what Mewtwo can do.

Bowser can DJ to escape followups from Confusion and... then what? Now you don't have it to mix up your landing, and with his bad airspeed it's a trivial matter for Mewtwo to get under him and usmash, and this with only a small dash if he jumps away like he should, so it's not hard to react to the dair that would be the only thing to really beat this (then disable). Airdodging past it isn't an option due to Bowser's size, again. Only the ledge provides a safe escape, but then you're back in a ledge pressure scenario.

In the times where Mewtwo wants to conserve shadow ball, he can use SHAD to escape, or just... walk away, which leaves all the time in the world to react to a Bowser dash. He doesn't always have to fight off Bowser when he gets close.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Even through Bowser is heavy Mewtwo is stronger and more "flexible" meaning yes Bowser has raw power but bowsers moves are slow and with the recent buff's for Mewtwo by far he hardly has any landing lag
Still, Mewtwo needs to be careful, since even though it's more mobile than Bowser, its very low weight can work against it. As such, Mewtwo has to avoid getting hit, which can be easier said than done if it doesn't have a fully charged Shadow Ball ready.

Basically, the dilemma is not too different from that of Ganondorf, where even though he has problems against the faster fighters, they can't afford to take any heavy blows from him.

But like I said, I don't know enough of this match-up to determine who does better overall.
 

ShadowKing

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Still, Mewtwo needs to be careful, since even though it's more mobile than Bowser, its very low weight can work against it. As such, Mewtwo has to avoid getting hit, which can be easier said than done if it doesn't have a fully charged Shadow Ball ready.

Basically, the dilemma is not too different from that of Ganondorf, where even though he has problems against the faster fighters, they can't afford to take any heavy blows from him.

But like I said, I don't know enough of this match-up to determine who does better overall.
I see your point and only a bad Mewtwo player will be clumsy (sorry im German)and get Hit many times
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I see your point and only a bad Mewtwo player will be clumsy (sorry im German)and get Hit many times
Experience is everything. If Mewtwo loses to Bowser, you'll just have to figure out what you did wrong in hopes of turning things around for the next round.
 
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