Match-Up Discussion - Diddy Kong

[Sinister Slush]

Some fitting music to lighten up the thread.​

Let discussion begin.

Match-Up Summary

Ratio:

Videos:

Best/Worst Stages (Red for bad):

 

[jeck95]

Stages:
I tend to avoid delfino due to the low ceilings and platforms that help diddy combo uairs more.
I also avoid duck hunt due to the ducks messing up egg camping.
I don't think there is a stage where yoshi has an advantage in the mu besides maybe lylat due to how the stage tilts.
Things to note:
- Bananas last for only two tosses. After the second toss, the banana disappears and diddy has to spawn another one.
- Remember that grabs have no grab armor. Most diddys attempt to grab after the banana toss. Jump oos retreating nair can catch the normal diddy grab approach. (Not entirely sure if jump oos retreating nair is punishable, requires more experience/testing)
- Yoshi's grab has more range than diddy's. Yoshi can throw out standing grab for diddy to run into but grab is always risky.
- Diddy has trouble killing except if diddy land uair or fsmash. Fair is dependent on how fresh the move is (basically if diddy likes using a lot of fairs or not)
- NEVER upsmash a diddy that got egg laid unless you are willing to eat a uair.
- Eggs beat peanuts clean.
Strategy:
Be patient and respect diddy's fair and bair. Diddy's fair and bair have more range than yoshi's aerials so they make it hard to approach. It is better to camp with eggs and force the approach. Getting diddy off stage is important because diddy's recovery is not the best. Dair is great against for edge-guarding in general (even better if you don't get the last hit).
Overall:
I feel like the matchup is 45:55 in diddy's favor due to diddy's great aerials, throw follow ups, and bananas. However, yoshi can live a lot longer than diddy with appropriate di and can kill diddy before diddy can kill yoshi.
I also need more experience against the more known diddys in Florida because so far my experience comes from Dolo and Dewdadash so take this knowledge with a grain of salt.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

That song is perfect. ty

 

[Delta-cod]

I've said it elsewhere, but it's interesting to note that hitting a banana with an egg will cause it to vanish. This includes hitting a grounded banana. So, neat thing to be aware of. I wouldn't use it as your only method of dealing with the bananas, though.

I'd say that if Diddy plans on running at you, you should probably just jab him, because grabs lack super armor. I'm not sure how to deal with rising Fair/Bair in our face, though. It might be possible to jab before they come out? I'm not sure.

 

[Yokoblue]

Even more fitting:

I would say sadly FD and Lylat are our best stages. FD make it easier to camp diddy kong with eggs and Lylat is a pain for recovery for diddy. Lylat has platforms though so personally, I like duck hunt better since eggs usually are send really low and ducks rarely get hit by them.

Small tips I do usually against diddy:
- Spot dodge Side B turn and Fsmash. With the range of the Fsmash you can usually hit him when he lands. If he does it really close to you it won't work though.
- Dair has a lot of uses in the MU when you get some read. Since Diddy always dash grab, SH dair hit for a lot of damage in a lot of situation. You can also SH Dair or full jump Dair the Side B. This is not a "safe move" but I think the risk/reward is pretty high for us to try it 1-2 times per match. Worst case, you'll get Hoo-haaed.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I wish I had videos of friendly matches against LT, he plays a mean diddy. This MU obviously goes to Diddy and while he is at the "top tier" currently, I'd much rather face diddy than sheik any day of the week. As for ratio, I'd go as far to say it's 40:60.

• Hoo-hah is lame, but you can DI it (away behind diddy, if I recall correctly). Even if you do properly DI, you can still be hit by Fair. At high percents you should be able to avoid/dodge, but make sure to then avoid the subsequent Uair fishing.
• Banana can be destroyed when hit by an egg. If you are carrying one do not just throw it off the stage! Use the banana to your advantage and create opportunities to punish diddy for overextending. Faking out your throw, throwing banana down, etc -- make the diddy scared of you!
• If diddy is SHFF Fairs/Bairs, try not challenge with Fair (too much windup), or Nair (not as meaty as Diddy's fair). Instead, space out and toss eggs.
• If you're above, try to limit landing with Dair. Diddy is mobile enough to maneuver that and respond with Uair.
• If he's carrying a banana, chances are he'll throw it at you or side-B. Dodge the side-b and punish. Shield the banana or catch it and use it!
• If he does not have a banana and is running to you, he's probably going to grab. Jab him to stop this or dodge the grab and punish.
• A smart diddy will recover low, so it is difficult to punish. If you're ballsy enough, you can try to follow him off stage and try to Nair/Fair/bair his recovery. Otherwise, it is safe to just egg toss.
• For stage, try not to go to stages that have low ceilings (Halberd, delfino transformations, town&city). I really like FD/SV as it gives you space to breathe. I haven't really tried Lylat at all, but it is a wonky stage so it may work against diddy's recovery.

Diddy is not an impossible character to beat, but it is an uphill battle against him. You will need to space your attacks properly or you will eat strings of fairs/uairs. His Dair is also an option so try not to put yourself in situations where you are prone to be spiked. He is a strong character and as yoshi you will have to work hard to stuff his approaches and get kills of your own. Let's try get the Diddy boards to comment here!

 

[Steinway]

After considering myself to be pretty good at this matchup, I lost last night to a fraudulent Diddy in a money match. So, I have decided that it shall happen NO MORE. For me, as well as my fellow Yoshi mains. Since that aggravating loss I have been studying what I did wrong, and what he did right. I'm gonna do my best to give a solid breakdown of this, so that we know what to expect and we know how to combat their strategy.

Big Picture
I think this is a 40-60 matchup for Yoshi. That said, the amount of effort we must put in to have a fighting chance is pretty immense, especially when the Diddies are of a non-pocket status. While we are harder to combo, making the hoo-hah a less viable strategy, we have no means of directly combatting Diddy's aerials, as they are faster and have more range. As a result, many Diddies have a different strategy against Yoshis, and that's to aggressively spam Aerials. Understanding their adjusted goals for the matchup helps us to adapt accordingly. First I'm going to talk about the basic things to remember with Diddy:

• NEVER GET ABOVE DIDDY KONG. PERIOD.
  • If you're getting combo'd and you're anywhere above him, DON'T challenge with Nair like you would with a lot of other characters. His Uair range is too ridiculous. Down B typically comes out too slow to challenge it as well, so only save that if you wanna catch an overzealous hoo-hah Diddy with their pants down.
  • Recover low and to the ledge. His short hop Uair is killer on recovering Yoshis. If you do recover high, don't throw out any moves, and let your DJ armor absorb the attacks.
• STAY UNDER DIDDY KONG AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
  • Similar to the first point, being underneath a Diddy is GODLIKE. Yoshi's got a mean Uair too However, do not overextend yourself. Try staying close to the stage if you can help it, because if he can scoop you with an Uair, it's your fault. Keep in mind that while they are falling they will try B reverse/side B shenanigans, so try to box them in with your positioning.
• THINGS YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PUNISH
  • When Diddy lands, enjoy your free hit. Punish with dash attack.
  • When Diddy tries to grab a banana with a dash attack. Free Nair.
  • When Diddy tries to recover too much with side B. DUNK SQUAD.
  • When Diddy uses his up B too close to the stage. Nair that hoe.

Now, there are two scenarios that should be treated separately when in the neutral against Diddy:
Banana In Hand:

• This is the only time in the Diddy matchup where Nairs are an appropriate option. Not only do they destroy bananas, but they also can't be challenged by anything else, since Diddy's aerial option is gone. Nair also cleanly beats side B as well.
  
• That being said, It's a risky mixup to play aggressively while Diddy has a banana in hand, mainly because he can punish your unsafe Nairs on shield. In this case, try alternating between Nair and Egg Lay.
  
• The only legitimate time to approach with Nair is if you catch them out of their shield, such as immediately after they throw their banana. It's just enough time that they can't aerial you, and the soft hit leads to more combo setups.
• If you land within the banana's throw range, you're pretty much screwed. Make sure that you reserve a 3-ish character length space between you and Diddy on the ground. You might be able to bait out the throw if you space it just far enough that you can spot dodge or shield before the banana hits you.
• If you're ever within throw range, make sure that you're in the air above the banana's trajectory. Keep in mind that it's better for you to use an egg toss (if well spaced) or your second jump to avoid getting hit with the banana upon landing.
• If a banana hits your shield, JUMP OUT OF SHIELD, AND JUMP AWAY. If you do this, you can punish their grab attempt or a side B with a retreating Fair or Nair.

No Banana:

• No more approaching with Nairs... In fact, you can't challenge his aerials with Nair at all, because Fair, Bair, and Uair all cleanly beat it. If anything, use Nair outside of his aerial range in order to stuff the side B.
• Anticipate Diddy's aerial pressure with retreating egg tosses, egg lays, and the occasional autocanceled Fair. Make sure that you are spaced properly every time you land, so you can punish their overextension with a grab.
• Diddy's Fair eats through eggs as well, so try for a higher arc when throwing eggs.

Stages

• Horrible Stages:
  • Delfino - Low ceilings, Diddy can shark under the main platform, walk-off transformations prevent early gimps/spikes. (Note: This changes to moderate/advantageous with customs on.)
  • Castle Siege - Low ceilings, walk-offs
    
  • Halberd - Low ceilings, sharking
• Bad Stages:
  • FD - This may be controversial according to some people in this thread, but Diddy's stage control is simply too great for this to be a viable stage. Platforms, when used correctly, help Yoshi far more than they help Diddy in terms of maneuverability.
• Moderate Stages:
  • Smashville - Pretty neutral, pretty obvious. Up smashes under the platform are top notch.
  • Town & City - Same as Smashville, but slightly more in Diddy's favor due to slightly lower ceiling and FD-like transformation.
• Decent Stages:
  • Duck Hunt - This stage is volatile for the matchup, but still aids Yoshi. While it can sometimes hurt Yoshi's egg game, it also hurts Diddy's banana game, forcing him to pick the aerial spam option more. Because of Yoshi's insane aerial mobility and eggs, the tree tends to favor him, but it can be used against him if you're not too careful. In addition, the small tree to the right and the dog are at the right height for up smashes, which is the ultimate punish for Diddy's landings.
  • Battlefield - Another controversial choice because of Diddy's Uair, but if you make it your primary goal to stay underneath him as much as possible, it ends up being a juggle-fest.
• Good Stages:
  • Lylat - Yeah I know, it tilts. Thankfully, that just makes it hard for Diddy. Most of the time if you get trapped underneath you can still up B to sweet spot the ledge. In addition, the three platforms all allow for more mixups in vertical movement, making it easier to approach Diddy. In addition, up smash covers a majority of each of the platforms, making his landing on them dangerous.

Phew, so that's what I've got for now. I'll edit this post as I learn more information.

 

[Delta-cod]

Regarding Delfino, you said: (Note: This changes to moderate/advantageous with customs on.)

You simply must explain this. Don't leave us hanging!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Possibly egg launch just killing them to the walk offs?

 

[Steinway]

Not just walk offs Slush. It kills off the side on pretty much any part of the stage

I personally think that Egg Launch is his only good custom move, and it makes Yoshi better in almost every matchup. It does 1% more than the default and guarantees a positional advantage (or easy edge guard situation) rather than an extra 10-20% damage. With Yoshi's offstage game I think cornering them is way more advantageous.

Oh also it makes Little Mac the freest character in the game

 

[Delta-cod]

Little Mac was already pretty free tho.

Anyone got a video of Egg Launch doing well against someone?

 

[Steinway]

Here's the only example off the top of my head, though I could probably find my match against False... I gfycatted EE tho

http:// www. twitch.tv /eevisu/ b/627575163 ?t=2h20m45s

I can't post links yet because my account is so young, so you'll have to delete the spaces lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Convenient Link for those interested: http://www.twitch.tv/eevisu/b/627575163?t=2h20m45s

Holy **** Egg Launch is INCREDIBLE, lol. That was nuts.

 

[Airborne]

I don't have much to add to the match-up discussion at the moment, but I actually prefer Delfino in this match-up because I like our sharking and juggling game over Diddy's. However, if the low ceiling is a larger concern for you, and Skyloft is actually legal (obviously not at Evo), then that may be a better choice. Skyloft is also a fantastic stage to advantage of Egg Launch. I had a tournament match where I killed a Rosalina at 17% on one of the transformations because they broke out of the egg in the blast zone.

To keep things short for now, I personally treat Diddy like a grappler and rely on my platform game to deal with the dominance that bananas have on Diddy's opponent's ground game.

 

[Steinway]

Airborne I like where your head's at there. As long as you're not getting directly above Diddy then that strategy is good. And maybe Delfino's not the worst stage in the MU, but I personally am banning the crap out of it.

 

[Steinway]

I was watching Slush's doubles match against double Diddy [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INDjycmNn4M] and came up with some other useful info, both from things he did right and things he did wrong. Gonna divide it up into general, banana, and no banana like I did with my earlier post:

General

• NEVER do anything that causes landing lag. This means don't do SH Bairs or Dairs, and auto cancel your SH Nairs and Fairs.
• Don't over extend your combos. Anticipate when he can catch you with a side B or an Uair and respect that.
• When stopping his recovery, stay on the edge of the stage to stuff the side B UNTIL you see him charging up B. You don't want to give up your stage position for free.

Banana

• Know when the Diddy is defensive or aggressive with banana in hand.
  • If he's aggressive and trying to throw the banana quickly, then punish with landing Nairs into jab, and be prepared to use your second jump quickly to avoid a banana's hit stun.
  • If he's defensive and holding shield, waiting for you to throw out an unsafe hit, then focus on staying just outside of the throw range, then wait for your chance to punish his shield with a command grab. DO NOT DO UNSAFE AERIALS ON DEFENSIVE DIDDIES HOLDING A BANANA.

No Banana

• This is the aerial spamming side of Diddy. Essentially you need to space just out of his Fair range at all times.
• When just outside of Fair range, down tilt and egg lay are your best options. Don't be afraid to punish his overextension with an up tilt or up smash as well.
• When playing defensively, make sure you're always at a safe distance to throw eggs. Diddy can close the gap easily, so if you do it too close and you miss, you will get hit or grabbed.
• Diddy's down tilt leads into grabs, so be quick to DJ out of it. Slush you did a great job of that

 

[Dalxp26]

Diddy main here.... never underestimate a diddy with a banana in his hand. A lot of players come in with the mentality of "ohh he has a banana in hand? Then he can only use special attacks" and then end up getting hit by an aerial while diddy has a banana. Dont forget that characters can Z drop and an experienced Diddy will know how to do aerials with a banana in hand. We can drop the banana and attack at the same time we pick it back up in mid air. Also theres glide tossing and b reverse cancel pop gun. Small little tech that make us diddy mains a pain.

I do however have a hard time with avoiding being juggled and Yoshi's quick 1, 2, 3 jab kicks (but i do feel like i can avoid it now due to more experience with the game and the implemented landing lag [hard time getting used to it]). I havent found much of a way around that but the last time i played a good yoshi was when i played the game for the first few times.


Egg toss also beats monkey flip most of the time so it's a bit tricky to approach with. Nonetheless yoshi is extremely good and i tend to sigh when i face one (other characters i sigh at are bitchass Rosalinas)

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Plus, can't you just crouch and c-stick to use A-moves with a banana anyway?

And tbh, you lost your sighing rights when you mained Diddy Kong in Sm4sh and Project M. Now you just gotta suck it up.

 

[AirJordans]

Just wanted to thank Steinway. What great posts. Also:

When Diddy lands, enjoy your free hit. Punish with dash attack.
When Diddy tries to grab a banana with a dash attack. Free Nair.
When Diddy tries to recover too much with side B. DUNK SQUAD.
When Diddy uses his up B too close to the stage. Nair that hoe.

-that progression made me lol for sure.

 

[Sinister Slush]

All those except for the last one are bad, mostly cause diddy kong priority is dumb for 3rd one and never know if he gonna rocket across entire stage or just halfway with his foot.
No good diddy kongs use DA to grab a banana.
Diddy landing being... what exactly? just in general or after a move? Most of his aerials don't have much lag anyways while our DA is atrocious to use.

 

[AirJordans]

All those except for the last one are bad, mostly cause diddy kong priority is dumb for 3rd one and never know if he gonna rocket across entire stage or just halfway with his foot.
No good diddy kongs use DA to grab a banana.
Diddy landing being... what exactly? just in general or after a move? Most of his aerials don't have much lag anyways while our DA is atrocious to use.

Yeah, I haven't played many good Diddys yet. I'm sure you're more right about that stuff the better the Diddy is. You guys know more than me for sure so I'm not gonna argue haha.

 

[Cheeky19]

You should also not take a Diddy Kong to Battlefield. Learned that the hard way this weekend. If you get land on the top platform from one of his hits or throws, you're toast.

 

[Saturnity]

If I've learned only one thing about this MU, it's delicious.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Got anything to say about it anyone?
Might just stop discussion for Sheik and Diddy once I turn 21 the 5th, both threads have decent discussion and I'll choose some of the better posts or points that's been said about the MU.

I still think this MU, when even skilled players, is like -2. Of course if say any of us vs Zero or M2k it'd feel like -3 or -4 lol
Diddy's priority speed options etc. are all just leagues better than Yoshi and the fact I've got 3 stocked by three different high/mid level Diddy kongs just breaks my heart, I never got 3 stocked once in Brawl even against MK so for this to happen in Smash 4 3 times...

So again -2 for me, might use some of dren's and steinway's posts for good diddy points. Videos, dunno, I have one but it's me getting reverse 3 stocked but I played incredibly well, got gimps, and felt like the better player. Just at the end I couldn't land any kill moves of course and becuz hype happening behind me it got me nervous and even more hungry for the kill so I ultimately lost cause screw defensive Diddy's throwing out huge hitboxes with no landing lag.

I wanna also say, if it's legal in your state, Skyloft might be a good stage against diddy. Gigantic so less likely to die to his Uair, and a lot of room to camp and move around compared to smaller like Smashville.
I might try to start doing FD and Skyloft if I face these diddy players.

 

[Enoki]

Just something random to keep in mind: eggs destroy bananas. I've had a few rare instances where I egg'd a banana as diddy pulled it, which can throw someone off for just a second. And sometimes I'll throw an egg at a banana sitting somewhere just to troll. :3

Also, with customs on, egg launch is extremely useful because I find that off-stage is the only situation where we may have an advantage over Diddy.

 

[Toonation]

I like the Yoshi V Diddy match Up better than the sheik tho. But, then again i haven't had the chance to get a few rounds in with a good Diddy.

Question: Has anyone tried 3111 Yoshi and tried luring him to ledge and ledge guarding his recovery?

In theory it seems decent but you lose the better egg lay and you'd probably have to do tons of mind games for that to work. I mean I tested it against a decent / meh Diddy in friendlies and messed him up but not a true Diddy.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Convenient Link for those interested: http://www.twitch.tv/eevisu/b/627575163?t=2h20m45s

Holy **** Egg Launch is INCREDIBLE, lol. That was nuts.

EXCUSE ME? LMFAO
Wow that is ****ing broken, I love it. If we ever legalize customs I'm taking this as an excuse to perfect wave bouncing

Anyway I think the most leeway we have on this matchup is learning exactly how to edgeguard him. I think It's worth knowing about frame 1 ledge vulnerablity. It might actually help out in this matchup since someone said Diddys tend to recover low. We still kinda juggle him pretty well too but thats about it.

 

[W.A.C.]

I main five characters (two of which are Diddy Kong and Yoshi) and one stupid mistake a lot of people do against Diddy Kong is not using his bananas against him. I highly recommend everyone who plays this game competitively to learn glide tossing and practice it like crazy until you can do it without fail. Try practicing it with bananas in training mode and you can get stupidly easy kills with it using Diddy's banana. I fought a Diddy Kong main as Yoshi in friendlies the other day and getting a glide toss > forward smash kill was one of the easiest kills I've gotten against a good Diddy Kong player using Yoshi. Not learning how to glide toss will cripple anyone who wants to use Diddy's bananas effectively against him.

 

[Mister E]

^ This, It depends on your playstyle, but for me it's always easy to rack up damage, but hard to kill him. Once i learned to abuse bananas it became so much easier. (You can combo into Fsmash easily)

Yoshi is extremely good at catching bananas due to the fact that he can Nair every time he lands, while staying in the air for a ridicilusly long time with egg tosses. Basicly the only opening to hit you with bananas is as you land if you're good at keeping the air game (Which makes you immune to bananas anyway). Once you have a banana you can either keep it and space with eggs and use it against him as he tries to approuch.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Diddy Kong
Up Air Damage 8% -> 6%
Forward Air Damage 12/10% -> 10/8%
Up Throw 10% -> 8%
Down Throw 7% -> 6%
Monkey Flip Grab 12% -> 10%. Jump 10% -> 8%. Extra hitbox in kick, now is 14%/12%/10% from 14%/12%
Forward Smash Ending lag increased
*Tilts/smashes while holding an item has been removed (Link, Megaman, Peach, etc)

So with the patch out our friendly neighborhood monkey gets hit with the most with the nerfstick. Several of his moves took a damage decrease meaning he needs to work more for kills (goodbye hoo-hah!). With this change and Yoshi's minor ledge getup attack buff, the matchup will still be within Diddy's favor at -1 for us. Most of the discussion above remains unchanged other than we get to live a bit longer.

Diddy's SHFF fairs shuts down our approaches quite handily, so we have to make sure that our spacing is on point.
His bananas are a double-edged sword, so be extra vigilant and be prepared to shield/dodge/catch it.
With uair being nerfed, he has to be more crafty with killing; LethalTrilogy has been incorporating Rocketbarrel attack into a pretty ridiculous kill option.
One of yoshi's strong suits is interrupting Diddy's recovery back onto the stage. If you can anticipate the monkey flip, you can Fair spike somewhat reliably, otherwise nairing is also another decent option.
Don't forget that egg destroys bananas.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'll just say this now, Diddy has a damn hard time killing Yoshi now that he doesn't have a get out of jail free card for both damage rack up and easy early % kill moves.
Diddy is still fast and annoying with giant hitboxes, but he hurts about as much as Mario or Sheik's combos, thankfully he isn't as hard to hit as the other two either or safe as he used to be.
The nerf essentially reverted him to Brawl Diddy where he needs to kill with Banana into F/Dsmash or pray for a lucky bair to kill. (not even fair kills as reliably anymore)

I don't have as much of a problem with the character and I'd be inclined to put it as either 50:50 solely cause good ones could still be a pain, but maybe even 55:45 for us.

A good Toon Link player in my city from brawl days that went straight to diddy when wii u version dropped that beat the top 3 players in my city multiple times (or once for megafox) that used to give me problems the first time I played him, got so discouraged during our rematch in my cities finals that he tried to find another good character to deal with me during the set.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

As long as Diddy's Fair isn't fresh eggs will win because it does less than 10% and wont beat the first hit of our eggs.

 

[Delta-cod]

Also, if the Diddy is trying to just wall Fairs, I'm sure we could counter with running Usmash.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Very likely, also Imma edit the OP cause... it's all outdated lol.
Anybody is welcome to help with vids stages or a basic summary etc.

 

[W.A.C.]

Diddy's forward air has terrible kill power now. I almost never kill with forward air above stage under 180% anymore unless the stage has super small blast zones. Now it's more so a good spacing tool and a way to get damage than an actual kill move. However, it can't really be spammed unless a player does short hops above ground, so yeah... If Diddy Kong wants to kill horizontally with an aerial move, he mostly has to rely on back air and side special kick. Neither have amazing kill power, but they certainly kill earlier than forward air now. Like if I were to kill (I think it was) Mario in the middle of Final Destination with forward air or back air, back air kills 20% sooner. As a Diddy Kong main, it's kind of obnoxious that his forward air has such lousy kill power now, but it's still a great move because of how it can wall out opponents and do decent damage.

Diddy Kong's moves in general have way less damage and knockback. Yoshi is a considerably stronger character than Diddy Kong now, but Diddy Kong has better frame data. Kind of odd they nerfed the frame data to Diddy's side smash in the latest balance patch, yet they left Shiek's frame data alone when she has better frame data and options post patch than either Diddy Kong or Yoshi. No clue why so many characters had their A moves frame data worsened with the balance patches, yet Shiek gets hers left alone. She probably wouldn't be so dominant right now if they left the frame data alone for a lot of characters. They did nerf the frame data for her needles with the first balance patch though.