Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Macchiato]

Just read the OP and what? Greninja's projectile is not better than WiiFits. The score is good but he doesn't have a better projectile gorl.

 

[TriTails]

Once again, I'm not going to give a MU ratio for since I think analysis and discussion is far more valuable. With that said, here are my notes:

• Don't fall for fireball tick throws. If he throws a fireball and you shield it, drop your shield and jab him as he runs in for the grab. Dtilt will work too if Luigi starts running from far away. Don't panic! Luigi gets so many free grabs off chasing after fireballs and he really shouldn't be getting them against us, our jab is too fast.
• When Luigi does start a combo, usually from a grab, we are sadly in for a world of pain. Our fall speed and weight makes us really susceptible to his combos. The best thing to do is really just try to stop him from getting those grabs in the first place. Remember how to DI his Dthrow properly if you do get grabbed (behind him at low percents, away from him at high percents).
• Edgeguarding a good Luigi is not that easy because they will usually recover low and cover themselves with tornado. Luigi's really floaty though, so the best thing to do after knocking him offstage is to stay on him, read/react to an airdodge and Bair before he gets low enough to recover.
• Watch out for Luigi trying to edgeguard with tornado, too. It uses the autolink angle so if Luigi uses it while falling, he can hit us with the bottom of the attack and spike us to death.

I need to address something. Fireball -> Dash grab are overly overrated that, Luigis who sticks to that thing only are bad Luigis. Not enough hitstun on Fireballs.

Edgeguarding Luigi is easy if you know what you are doing. Hit him away after his Missile and force a Cyclone out of it. Once he does, sneeze him with whatever thing you frogs have and he's dead.

You forgot to mention Luigi's aerials. SH aerials are crazy good. Once he gets past the Shurikens he can actually just go around SH aerials for life and still rack up damage real quickly. SH Bairs, for example, is safe on shield, and when he DOES hits you, that's a 14% there. Luigi's game isn't simply 'Get a grab, down throw, mash random buttons'. His aerials are a great threat if he manages to close in to you. My advice would be face backwards from him and use your fast B-air when he comes, but watch out for shieldgrabs (Yes, this thing exist in Luigi).

Other than that, Greninja juggles, outrange, outspeed, and brings pretty much everything hell. But I wouldn't push it more than 60:40 Greninja.

Just saying, don't expect good Luigis fishing for grabs, or he'll make you eat tons of lagless SH aerials (Not B-air).

Side note:...Ninjas are hell.

 

[FullMoon]

Just read the OP and what? Greninja's projectile is by better than WiiFits. The score is good but he doesn't have a better projectile gorl.

Macchi pls grammar. I had to read your sentence 5 times to get what you were saying and I still don't understand all of your sentence.

I do sorta agree with you though. I think shuriken is a better projectile than Sun Salutation because it's a lot faster and more useful as a poking tool when uncharged, which can also stop WFT from charging Sun Salutation if they get too careless. I also think that an uncharged shuriken and salutation go right past each other, but Greninja's most likely to hit since it's so fast.

Header, however, is a different story. Shuriken goes right under WFT thanks to the jump they make when they use the move and it does go pretty fast once they hit the ball. However... An aerial shuriken can still interrupt the trainers, or hit the ball which will then hit them in the face, or just trade with the ball which will make it bounce off and possibly hit the trainers in the face.

There's also the matter that just by crouching Greninja makes hitting him with the header a lot harder due to his low crouch while WFT cannot crouch under his shurikens. At a long distance Header is really easy to defend against since it's so easy to block on reaction when input lag is not in the way and Greninja's great mobility means that using Header can be a bit risky since the end lag on it makes it easy for Greninja to get in.

WFT has great projectiles, but just how fast the shuriken is compared to her slower projectiles that also can leave her pretty open if she gets careless with it when Greninja is coming in, I overall think shuriken is a bigger nuisance to WFT than her projectiles are to us. Though we do have to respect Wii Fit once she does manage to charged SS all the way.

You forgot to mention Luigi's aerials. SH aerials are crazy good. Once he gets past the Shurikens he can actually just go around SH aerials for life and still rack up damage real quickly. SH Bairs, for example, is safe on shield, and when he DOES hits you, that's a 14% there. Luigi's game isn't simply 'Get a grab, down throw, mash random buttons'. His aerials are a great threat if he manages to close in to you. My advice would be face backwards from him and use your fast B-air when he comes, but watch out for shieldgrabs (Yes, this thing exist in Luigi).

Yeah Luigi's aerials are certainly something. I'll keep all that in mind, I never really thought of using B-Air to keep Luigi at bay when he's getting in. I think that if we space it well we probably won't have much to fear since I'm fairly sure it's safe on shield.

 

[bc1910]

I need to address something. Fireball -> Dash grab are overly overrated that, Luigis who sticks to that thing only are bad Luigis. Not enough hitstun on Fireballs.

Edgeguarding Luigi is easy if you know what you are doing. Hit him away after his Missile and force a Cyclone out of it. Once he does, sneeze him with whatever thing you frogs have and he's dead.

You forgot to mention Luigi's aerials. SH aerials are crazy good. Once he gets past the Shurikens he can actually just go around SH aerials for life and still rack up damage real quickly. SH Bairs, for example, is safe on shield, and when he DOES hits you, that's a 14% there. Luigi's game isn't simply 'Get a grab, down throw, mash random buttons'. His aerials are a great threat if he manages to close in to you. My advice would be face backwards from him and use your fast B-air when he comes, but watch out for shieldgrabs (Yes, this thing exist in Luigi).

Other than that, Greninja juggles, outrange, outspeed, and brings pretty much everything hell. But I wouldn't push it more than 60:40 Greninja.

Just saying, don't expect good Luigis fishing for grabs, or he'll make you eat tons of lagless SH aerials (Not B-air).

Side note:...Ninjas are hell.

They were observations. Not a definitive list of things to look for in the matchup. I also missed his powerful smashes, potential Bthrow kill and how advanced positioning through crawling plays out for both characters.

Have you seen how Boss and Concon recover? Don't expect a good Luigi to even use missile. A good Luigi can get height out of Cyclone without even using their double jump, making their recovery incredibly versatile and not easy to gimp at all.

 

[TriTails]

Well, if you guys don't face backwards against Luigi then all you'd get is a million chops and dropkicks while not having a good counter because Greninja's F-air and N-air are slow.

Well, Jumpless Cyclone requires 14 times mashing a second. I freaking repeat, FOUR-FREAKING-TEEN times. A bleeping second. No random people can get that thing out without serious practice. Never seen False and J. Miller squeeze that out, and not every Luigi mains can mash like a boss.

If we are talking on characters maximum potential, then yes, that's a thing to consider, I apologize.

(Though, good luck mashing the thing. Why in a game where everybody's recovery is so freaking easy but you have to mash like a god on this one I have no clue)

 

[bc1910]

It's actually 12 times per second. Concon does it at 14 which is two presses faster than everyone else in the world, but Boss does it at 12 and gets by. But yes, whilst it's difficult to do and can't be expected from your average Luigi main, it's something I'm expecting more and more Luigis to be able to do as they realise how well it supplements their recovery.

Honestly I think you have to mash so hard because it's not SUPPOSED to gain you height without using your double jump.

If you think about it, it gets you a ton of height from very close to the blastline, covers Luigi's whole body with a large hitbox (that seems to trade well/have high priority) and doesn't even force him to jump OR put him in helpless. So if you knock him out of that he still has his double jump available, as well as missile and Up B. In fact, he might get Cyclone back too... I'm not sure though.

Still, all that was true in previous games and Cyclone gained extra height really easily. So I'm not totally sure. But it's actually a pretty bonkers recovery move if you don't have to jump beforehand.

 

[Coffee™]

Grenin

I think Sheik is the only character who fits that bill for us. From my own practice I think Sonic does too but I haven't observed enough high level play from other players to say that for sure and I think there are things in the MU that I'm not utilising properly, such as jabbing Spin Dash more often or using Hydro Pump when he's trying to land after spring.

I'm not even so sure on Shiek anymore. The Bair nerf does make Shiek quite a bit more manageable for Greninja as that was generally her main kill move against him as she can't really gimp him if you conserve your jump. He also outdamages her per hit and he can Snadow Sneak out of her low percent strings once you get the timing down. It's mostly her neutral game that makes the matchup a pain in the ass but he has things against her kit as well. Once I get some more practice in the matchup I'll chime in some more.

As for Sonic, I feel it's more a matter of learning how to punish him as it's different in comparison to what Greninja can do to most characters. As for Spindash....just don't **** with it. Greninja is not winning that trade the majority of the time. Yes you can use moves like Jab to stop it but you have to be so precise with Greninja as he can't just "hold A" it's just not worth it. You're gonna get hit the majority of the time going for it. The only moves Greninja should be throwing out against Spindash are Shurikens and Hydro Pumps. Shuriken will generally beat it or clank with him and Hydro Pump will do damage, prevent him from reaching you and depending on you spacing, possibly let you get a punish. Otherwise, just shield it or get out of the way and punish his other moves. Once you take Spindash out of the equation (which really isn't hard) and then look at how to punish the rest of Sonic's kit you'll see just how more manageable the matchup becomes.

Also as for Spring -> Dair landings, Sonic doesn't have a hitbox when he's about to land if he does it from auto-cancel height. Just run in and grab, dash attack or Usmash. It's free.

]Once again, I'm not going to give a MU ratio for since I think analysis and discussion is far more valuable. With that said, here are my notes

• Of course, FCWS takes a lot longer to throw than Sheik's needles, but we have the option of letting the shuriken go whenever if we need to cancel out a fireball. Luigi does not run fast enough to punish shuriken's endlag most of the time.

This is a huuuuuge advantage in this matchup btw.

Luigi's CQC is a lot better than ours, since he's the CQC master of the game really, but we actually outrange him pretty badly and have an excellent dash grab and dash attack combined with exponentially better mobility. Boxing with him isn't a good idea, but clever use of the mid-close range where we can threaten Luigi but he can't threaten us actually gives us some really good options up close. The most important thing to watch for at mid-close range is his dash grab, we should outrange everything else pretty safely though.

Luigi's CQC is better in general but in the matchup it's not hugely threatening. Greninja has a fast jab that Luigi can't Nair or attack through and I believe Dtilt has enough shield push back on Luigi to be quite safe once spaced well. As you said, just try not to get grabbed, but Greninja can throw hands with weegee at least to a point where he won't get overwhelmed just because Luigi managed to get in.

When Luigi does start a combo, usually from a grab, we are sadly in for a world of pain. Our fall speed and weight makes us really susceptible to his combos. The best thing to do is really just try to stop him from getting those grabs in the first place. Remember how to DI his Dthrow properly if you do get grabbed (behind him at low percents, away from him at high percents).

Actually if you DI down and away from Luigi you get out of a lot of his low percent combos relatively easily as Greninja will land and can Jab/Roll before Luigi can follow up for a second string. Also Shadow Sneak hitstun cancels are relatively easy to do on his low percent strings as well. A lot of the time he'll end up getting punished if he tries to get too over aggressive.

Edgeguarding a good Luigi is not that easy because they will usually recover low and cover themselves with tornado. Luigi's really floaty though, so the best thing to do after knocking him offstage is to stay on him, read/react to an airdodge and Bair before he gets low enough to recover.

Greninja has Bair and Hydro Pump to deal with Tornado. One generally trades and sends him lower and the other puts him above him while keeping him offstage. Substitute and Dair also really crap on him if you get the read on Green Missile or reckless Tornados.

Well, if you guys don't face backwards against Luigi then all you'd get is a million chops and dropkicks while not having a good counter because Greninja's F-air and N-air are slow.

Luigi loses hard in the air due to his air speed. Also, yes Fair and Nair are slow on start up but they have low cool down and both have enough shield push to be unpunishable against Luigi's shield once spaced. Bair is really safe too.

Honestly I think the matchup is one of Luigi's worst.

 

[FullMoon]

Well, if you guys don't face backwards against Luigi then all you'd get is a million chops and dropkicks while not having a good counter because Greninja's F-air and N-air are slow.

Not quite. If Luigi is gonna approach with his aerials, Greninja can do a retreating F-Air that outranges Luigi and is also disjointed, facing away from Luigi is preferable, but it's not the only option. F-Air also has more shieldpush to the point of being really safe against Luigi even if it's not spaced too well because of his traction.

 

[bc1910]

Nah, I think Sheik is a total pain for us. We may outdamage her per hit but we won't be hitting a good, safe "Fair-fortress" Sheik very often. And her combos are not only brutal, but massively underdeveloped right now. They're gonna get better. Check out Void (Hawaiian Sheik main) for more about Sheik's underdeveloped combo potential.

Anyway, SS hitstun cancelling IS really useful at low percents but as I'll explain below, I don't like to rely on that. Also we have the most recent evidence of aMSa getting trashed by a Sheik. Yes it's one set/one player but aMSa is excellent and the way he got shut down in that match doesn't bode well.

I do agree that we shouldn't be getting edgeguarded by Sheik though, Sheik's edgeguarding is actually pretty telegraphed. She has to be right next to you to use an aerial and bouncing fish has visual/audo startup cues that we should be able to react to. Because of this, Shadow Sneak is a very powerful tool against her edgeguards. We can simply charge Shadow Sneak when she knocks us away, let it go if she comes after us or use it right at the edge if she doesn't come after us because we'll usually hit her shield and fall down too quickly for her to punish. It's better to have a jump available when doing this though because if she tries to follow us to stage spike Hydro Pump, we need the option of double jump -> airdodge. Also the main thing I think we have against her in neutral is that our Fair outranges hers, which is potentially huge because so many characters get shut down by the range and speed of Sheik's Fair in a way that we really don't.

I will try DIing the Down Throw differently to see if i can get a free jab punish but I have no problem getting out of the strings when DIing behind him. Luigi's Fair just pops you behind him and you get out for free.

I don't like to rely on Shadow Sneak out of hitstun because I think it will get patched as soon as the devs are aware of it, and that the only reason it's still in the game is because they don't know about it. They've patched out every other hitstun cancel. I'd actually go as far as to say I advise people to use it VERY sparingly, we don't want MUs skewed by what is essentially a glitch that will get patched out with 99% certainty. I know no-one uses it much now and yes, there's an argument that while it's in the game we should make full use of it, but I'm just thinking long-term. It's not something we should be relying on.

Hydro Pump is useless against Cyclone if the Luigi player hasn't used his double jump. It just puts Luigi higher and he still has all his options available to him recovering including jumping whenever he wants.

Granted most Luigi players won't be able to Cyclone to recover without double jumping and Hydro Pump has a bit of use there. Although I generally don't like Hydro Pump vs recovery moves that don't put the character into helpless, or at least will push them too far away to recover without their jump (Mega Man, sometimes Sonic). Luigi can still recover with missile/Up B which I really don't like. Although granted both of those recovery moves are pretty bad and if we ever force Luigi into that situation we should probably get the gimp.

If our Luigi MU is actually this good then it will do wonders for our viability. Beating what many players including ZeRo consider to be the 3rd/4th best character in the game is excellent, and we do fine against Rosalina and Pikachu who are up there too. Gotta figure out the Sheik and Fox MUs though.

 

[Coffee™]

Nah, I think Sheik is a total pain for us. We may outdamage her per hit but we won't be hitting a good, safe "Fair-fortress" Sheik very often. And her combos are not only brutal, but massively underdeveloped right now. They're gonna get better. Check out Void (Hawaiian Sheik main) for more about Sheik's underdeveloped combo potential.

I play Shiek quite a lot and I'm aware her combo game is quite underdeveloped. As people get more comfortable with the character and realize she's more than just FTilt > Fair / BFish the meta will see another wake-up call. I can see Shadow Sneak is going to be even more invaluable against her in the future. And I know who Void is xD

As far as her "Fair-fortress" goes that is hardly the problem for Greninja. His biggest problem is getting punished for his own commitments in the matchup. Greninja's Bair outranges Shiek's Fair and he can Jab her OOS if she misspaces Fair. Fair alone is not a problem unless you let Shiek continuously trap you in your shield with it.

Also we have the most recent evidence of aMSa getting trashed by a Sheik. Yes it's one set/one player but aMSa is excellent and the way he got shut down in that match doesn't bode well.

I watched that match on stream and half the time I was like "whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!". Amsa is a great player but at the moment he is playing every matchup the same way which doesn't bode well against Shiek, Sonic or Diddy, which is why you tend to see him consistently get bodied by those characters.

I do agree that we shouldn't be getting edgeguarded by Sheik though, Sheik's edgeguarding is actually pretty telegraphed. She has to be right next to you to use an aerial and bouncing fish has visual/audo startup cues that we should be able to react to. Because of this, Shadow Sneak is a very powerful tool against her edgeguards. We can simply charge Shadow Sneak when she knocks us away, let it go if she comes after us or use it right at the edge if she doesn't come after us because we'll usually hit her shield and fall down too quickly for her to punish. It's better to have a jump available when doing this though because if she tries to follow us to stage spike Hydro Pump, we need the option of double jump -> airdodge. Also the main thing I think we have against her in neutral is that our Fair outranges hers, which is potentially huge because so many characters get shut down by the range and speed of Sheik's Fair in a way that we really don't.

I agree with everything here except the little bit towards the end about Fair. Greninja's does outrange but it's not a very consistent approach due to it's startup and it's easy enough to misspace it once she's rushing you down. I think Bair is better in general to approach as it's way harder for her to consistently punish.

I actually want to point out that currently most Greninja player's don't really use Bair that much in neutral, myself included. We should really change that. The move is really gooood.

I will try DIing the Down Throw differently to see if i can get a free jab punish but I have no problem getting out of the strings when DIing behind him. Luigi's Fair just pops you behind him and you get out for free.

I'll try that out as well. Most of the time from his 0% strings I only tend to take a little over 20% before I'm able to get out.

I don't like to rely on Shadow Sneak out of hitstun because I think it will get patched as soon as the devs are aware of it, and that the only reason it's still in the game is because they don't know about it. They've patched out every other hitstun cancel. I'd actually go as far as to say I advise people to use it VERY sparingly, we don't want MUs skewed by what is essentially a glitch that will get patched out with 99% certainty. I know no-one uses it much now and yes, there's an argument that while it's in the game we should make full use of it, but I'm just thinking long-term. It's not something we should be relying on.

I've actually been thinking about this a bit lately and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional. It seems like they are trying to make characters very true to what kind of persona they represent and it does seem pretty fitting for the Frog Ninja to be able to use it like that but eh' it's not like we can predict what the devs will do anyway. No reason not use the tools you're given unless they're taken away.

Hydro Pump is useless against Cyclone if the Luigi player hasn't used his double jump. It just puts Luigi higher and he still has all his options available to him recovering including jumping whenever he wants.

Granted most Luigi players won't be able to Cyclone to recover without double jumping and Hydro Pump has a bit of use there. Although I generally don't like Hydro Pump vs recovery moves that don't put the character into helpless, or at least will push them too far away to recover without their jump (Mega Man, sometimes Sonic). Luigi can still recover with missile/Up B which I really don't like. Although granted both of those recovery moves are pretty bad and if we ever force Luigi into that situation we should probably get the gimp.

Keep in mind that although you won't always get the gimp with Hydro Pump it will generally always put your opponent in a situation that's advantageous for Greninja.

If our Luigi MU is actually this good then it will do wonders for our viability. Beating what many players including ZeRo consider to be the 3rd/4th best character in the game is excellent, and we do fine against Rosalina and Pikachu who are up there too. Gotta figure out the Sheik and Fox MUs though.

Greninja has always been viable. People just overreacted to the initial nerf and deemed him bad. Greninja is just hard to be consistent as he doesn't have that "easy to use + has tons of jank" factor with but he generally has good matchups across the board.

Also Luigi is definitely not 3rd or 4th. The character has too many issues to be that high. Pika, Shiek, Rosa, Fox, Sonic and Diddy are all better characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Since @Snipnigth is lazy, here's how feels about the Greninja MU which I don't think Antone really dealt with before. I fought a couple online, but it's been way too long to remember anything worth noting.

lool, dude you have every advantage on us, better and faster proyectile, faster character overall, can combo us easily, SOFT NAIR INTO FAIR COMBOS AT HIGH % AND KILLS, more range, lower ending and landing lags, greninja standing is small enough to not GET hit by rar bair i even think he can crouch falcos laser and move under it, he can keep the pressure while keeping a safe distance...

Greninja is beast, not impossible matchup for falco, but greninja truly has the advantage here.

 

[Codaption]

I will admit....after seeing all the matchup discussions and seeing how many tricks Greninja has, I wasn't really sure whether or not these ratios were inaccurate or if he was actually still pretty high on the tier list. I'll keep note of what I see here, the reason I stay in the first place is because the discussion here is actually pretty interesting to watch.

 

[bc1910]

I'm studying so I can't give a detailed reply right now but I'll reply soon Coffee, I agree with most of what you said anyway! And yeah I don't think Luigi is 3rd/4th either, or even top 5, but he's a well regarded and powerful character regardless and having an advantage against him would be great (especially since more people will probably be picking him up as a Diddy slayer after ZeRo vs Concon... unless everyone sees both sets and just picks up Sheik xD)

Since @Snipnigth is lazy, here's how heels about the Greninja MU which I don't think Antone really dealt with before. I fought a couple online, but it's been way too long to remember anything worth noting.

Thanks for your response, great to have some input from some actual Falco mains. You should tell your friend that we get weak Nair -> Usmash as well and it kills even earlier than weak Nair -> Fair xD

Realistically though weak Nair is really hard to land because it's pretty telegraphed and unsafe on block (it's not bad on whiff). It can work as a (very) hard punish against big commitments though. It's interesting to see someone speak so highly of it... weak Nair would be an excellent kill confirm if it was easier to land, perhaps that's something we can work on in the future.

 

[Ffamran]

Thanks for your response, great to have some input from some actual Falco mains. You should tell your friend that we get weak Nair -> Usmash as well and it kills even earlier than weak Nair -> Fair xD

Realistically though weak Nair is really hard to land because it's pretty telegraphed and unsafe on block (it's not bad on whiff). It can work as a (very) hard punish against big commitments though. It's interesting to see someone speak so highly of it... weak Nair would be an excellent kill confirm if it was easier to land, perhaps that's something we can work on in the future.

We don't have a Greninja MU thread up yet and I doubt any of them have enough experience to say anything. We also missed the first Falco MU discussion since someone forgot we existed. >_>

I only fought FG Greninja players and you can assume how well that went. For basics, Reflector is both a friend and a for whenever Falco is involved. You can bait it or Falco can react the moment you launch a fully charged Water Shuriken and reflect it back. Since Water Shuriken can't be stored, there's no reason Greninja should be spamming it and relying on it for killing when Greninja can do all those wacky things off stage.

Falco has no way of challenging Greninja's Dair from below. I don't think his Utilt or Up Smash beats it since Falco only has Reflector, Dtilt, and a Fair for disjoints. How do I know this? Research that allowed a Greninja to chain like 6-12 Dairs on me per match.

At that point, Falco's fishing for a Uair if Greninja is that high up and can Dair without being punished by end lag and such. From the sides and above, probably anything can challenge.

Worst places to be around Falco: behind, above and in hit stun, below in hit stun, and near him on the ground. Falco's Bair is his 2nd strongest and 2nd fastest aerial or move in general excluding jump squat frames. There is absolutely no reason you should be behind him and let him Bair you. So, say you somehow mis-space a Fair and end up behind him, enjoy that Bair. If you somehow land behind him after a RAR Bair, expect a kick to snap into your face. It's pretty much like what Kirby can do OOS behind him along with Mega Man, Sheik, and perhaps Wii Fit Trainer. Not to mention Ike, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon. Falco can combo with his Bair despite how strong it is. It's kind of stupid and funny how he can chain clean Bairs early on if you let him - that's 13% per Bair. His Down Smash is as fast as his Dtilt, but covers both sides and does more damage. OOS Down Smash is a great way for Falco to punish someone behind him. Being above and close to Falco just let's him juggle you and while his Uair is slower than Captain Falcon's and ZSS's, it's his ability to jump close to the ceiling and kick you through the blast zone. His Dair is slow, but that doesn't mean it's useless. Don't let him, WFT, Luigi, Ganondorf, Samus, Ike, or anyone with a spike catching you being stupid off stage.

Edgeguarding-wise, Greninja will have an easier time since Falco Phantasm doesn't have a hitbox on Falco making it so he can be caught with anything. He overshoots the ledge and you can Fair, Shadow Sneak, Side Smash, Down Smash, and if he somehow ends up high enough, Up Smash him. Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak off stage will make his day. Fire Bird is slow, so Hydro Pump him and he'll be too far to recover if he's going for an angled recovery. With Distant Fire Bird, the charge is even slower while Fast Fire Bird might have similar startup as Falco Phantasm, but he can't act out of it. In return, a faster recovery with some less distance. Water Shuriken is powerful, but if he knows, he can cover his recovery with Reflector and you can eat a Water Shuriken back.

Falco's edgeguarding would end up being catching you with Fair and gimping or killing you. Nair can do the same, but I doubt Greninja will have trouble unlike Link, Captain Falcon, or Mario. Bair to stage spike and kill, Dair for spikes, and he can make use of Falco Phantasm's trail to run off the ledge and immediately Falco Phantasm back and soft spike you. Speaking of which, whiffing Shadow Sneak off stage might let Falco sof spike you like that. He can gimp with Blaster if the laser hits you right when you jump. Might not be a problem with Greninja's air speed and Hydro Pump, but just something to be aware of if your jump button suddenly stopped working. @BltzZ said his Utilt can scoop people up from the ledge, but I never tried it and it might be really strict timing.

The battle to me probably might end up like a samurai/cowboy vs. a ninja. Neither have a reason to approach and can stay at one end of the stage twiddling their thumbs. Falco wants to be up close and to punish every mistake. Bum-rushing will likely get Greninja jabbed, Ftilted, Dtilted, and Reflector'd or even grabbed if Greninja does something really unsafe against his shield. Greninja playing a hit and run game and ambushing Falco is something that will work since aside from jumping and walking, Falco's slow in the air and on the ground - he has poor horizontal movement, but great vertical movement. Greninja's fast on the ground and in the air, horizontally and vertically. Getting impatient and fishing will just get the other punished and the two punish hard.

Just what I feel is going between the two from a basic level. I don't remember any notable Falco vs. Greninja fights. There's this, but I don't think Froge is a seasoned Greninja unlike Manny who played Falco since Melee? Link to video: https://youtu.be/VlAfQT8Qvfc.

 

[FullMoon]

I will admit....after seeing all the matchup discussions and seeing how many tricks Greninja has, I wasn't really sure whether or not these ratios were inaccurate or if he was actually still pretty high on the tier list. I'll keep note of what I see here, the reason I stay in the first place is because the discussion here is actually pretty interesting to watch.

What can I say, Greninja is an unique, quirky and stylish character who attracts all sorts of interesting players

I actually want to point out that currently most Greninja player's don't really use Bair that much in neutral, myself included. We should really change that. The move is really gooood.

This. B-Air is a really good move with nice horizontal range so it would probably be really good in neutral if spaced well. I really do need to implement it into my gameplan.

Thanks for your response, great to have some input from some actual Falco mains. You should tell your friend that we get weak Nair -> Usmash as well and it kills even earlier than weak Nair -> Fair xD

Realistically though weak Nair is really hard to land because it's pretty telegraphed and unsafe on block (it's not bad on whiff). It can work as a (very) hard punish against big commitments though. It's interesting to see someone speak so highly of it... weak Nair would be an excellent kill confirm if it was easier to land, perhaps that's something we can work on in the future.

Actually if you space N-Air well it's actually pretty safe, at least you won't get shieldgrabbed and since a lot of people are conditioned into grabbing as soon as they can once N-Air hits their shield, you can predict they'll go for it and F-Smash. Has worked surprisingly often for me.

We don't have a Greninja MU thread up yet and I doubt any of them have enough experience to say anything. We also missed the first Falco MU discussion since someone forgot we existed. >_>

I'm never living that down am I?

Come on man.

 

[Ffamran]

This. B-Air is a really good move with nice horizontal range so it would probably be really good in neutral if spaced well. I really do need to implement it into my gameplan.

Isn't Bair Greninja's fastest aerial? In general, I don't see people use RAR Bairs a lot. Aside from Brawl Wolf and Brawl Ike, I don't think a lot of people abused RAR Bair, but I didn't follow Smash until recently. Ike players still RAR Bair the most, Captain Falcon players started abusing it more, I believe Sheik players used RAR Bair a lot, but will use it more considering it's more of a combo move now, Mega Man's Bair is so good, and Jigglypuff's Bair is just ludicrous. I keep hearing about how good Fox's Bair is for spacing and pressuring nshields, but I don't see a lot of people other than Snow and I think MegaFox use it a lot.

I'm never living that down am I?

Come on man.

You got that right.

 

[FullMoon]

Isn't Bair Greninja's fastest aerial? In general, I don't see people use RAR Bairs a lot. Aside from Brawl Wolf and Brawl Ike, I don't think a lot of people abused RAR Bair, but I didn't follow Smash until recently. Ike players still RAR Bair the most, Captain Falcon players started abusing it more, I believe Sheik players used RAR Bair a lot, but will use it more considering it's more of a combo move now, Mega Man's Bair is so good, and Jigglypuff's Bair is just ludicrous. I keep hearing about how good Fox's Bair is for spacing and pressuring nshields, but I don't see a lot of people other than Snow and I think MegaFox use it a lot.

Yeah, according to Lavani's frame data Greninja's B-Air is frame 5

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, according to Lavani's frame data Greninja's B-Air is frame 5

I just remembered Link and how Izaw abused Link's RAR Bair. Yeah, many characters have good Bairs. Boss has a setup where he instantly RAR Bairs after D-throw with Luigi and Seagull uses Sonic's Bair a lot which isn't surprising considering who he mained in Brawl.

 

[Gunla]

If I can say anything regarding Falco, it's his ability to punish.

Ffamran noted it already, but Falco can punish with his Bair, DSmash, etc, particularly well, so I see this match being focused on making few mistakes or making hits here and there while using the horizontal speed advantage to get away for Gren, and Falco focusing on baiting Gren in and punishing errors.

 

[David Galanos]

yeah it's kind of like fox where you have to make a lot less mistakes except his combos game lacks and other things.

 

[bc1910]

Falco can't bum rush Greninja like Fox can either which is huge.

 

[FullMoon]

Okay so I'm gonna talk about Falcon now:



Jab is your friend. It's fast and can stop Falcon from dash grabbing you depending on the distance between the two characters. If you did something unsafe and you're seeing the dash grab coming, mash jab and hope it comes out before Falcon can grab you. D-Tilt can work too.

Use shurikens sparingly. The shuriken is a great help in this MU as it's a good tool to pester Falcon with and make him come right at you, however if you get too spammy with it you will get badly punished for it. Intelligent use of shuriken can keep Falcon on his toes and limit his approach as well as giving you stage control.

Be patient. Being too aggressive against Falcon is not the best idea, we're already forcing him to come after us thanks to the shuriken, so instead watch what he's going to do and react. Greninja has to play the bait-and-punish game in order to suceed here, leave being aggressive to after you get in an advantageous position.

Be careful with your dodges. Falcon's Side-B can catch us during our rolls and spot dodges and will kill us very easily if we get too predictable. If you notice that the Falcon starts fishing for a side-b kill once you're at a high percentage, be ready to shield when he comes after you as the endlag of the move is very easy to punish with F-Smash

Neutral: Greninja has an edge here due to his shurikens being able to annoy Falcon from a distance. Not only that, Falcon has to respect our dash grab almost as much as we have to respect his. Falcon's frame data is better though, but we do have some nice disjoints in our favor here as well which is good enough.

Advantage: Both characters have terrifying advantageous states, however Greninja is able to keep Falcon in disadvantage for longer thanks to his bad disadvantage state. Falcon is still really dangerous once he gets it going though so be prepared for a lot of pain whenever he catches you.

Disadvantage: Falcon's disadvantage is bad, he really can't do much to escape our juggling thanks to his fall speed and weight, as well as Greninja's very good aerial mobility. Greninja on the other hand can make smart use of Hydro Pump to stop Falcon from getting too many hits in, which by itself makes our disadvantage state a lot better.

Edgeguarding: This is where Greninja really ruins Falcon's day. Hydro Pump really messes up with his Up-B and Side-B when he's trying to recover and being smacked with a B-Air offstage is most likely going to doom him. Falcon does have his perks in edgeguarding us though. His up-tilt can dunk us if we're using Shadow Sneak if we're not careful and his B-Air can be really dangerous. I believe both characters can do a ledge trump B-Air to score a kill on the other as well, so we need to be careful with the ledges

Overall I think Greninja has a small advantage here solely because of his powerful edgeguarding and due to the fact that his disadvantageous state is not bad. Falcon does make up for it by being able to kill us a lot faster than us outside of gimping though and so this MU is one where the tables can turn pretty wildly as the match goes.

I myself wouldn't give Greninja more than a 55:45 in this MU just because Falcon's sheer power coupled with his great advantaged state and mobility makes up for a lot of the trouble Greninja can give him in this MU.

 

[Lawliet626]

We don't have a Greninja MU thread up yet and I doubt any of them have enough experience to say anything. We also missed the first Falco MU discussion since someone forgot we existed. >_>

I only fought FG Greninja players and you can assume how well that went. For basics, Reflector is both a friend and a for whenever Falco is involved. You can bait it or Falco can react the moment you launch a fully charged Water Shuriken and reflect it back. Since Water Shuriken can't be stored, there's no reason Greninja should be spamming it and relying on it for killing when Greninja can do all those wacky things off stage.

Falco has no way of challenging Greninja's Dair from below. I don't think his Utilt or Up Smash beats it since Falco only has Reflector, Dtilt, and a Fair for disjoints. How do I know this? Research that allowed a Greninja to chain like 6-12 Dairs on me per match.

At that point, Falco's fishing for a Uair if Greninja is that high up and can Dair without being punished by end lag and such. From the sides and above, probably anything can challenge.

Worst places to be around Falco: behind, above and in hit stun, below in hit stun, and near him on the ground. Falco's Bair is his 2nd strongest and 2nd fastest aerial or move in general excluding jump squat frames. There is absolutely no reason you should be behind him and let him Bair you. So, say you somehow mis-space a Fair and end up behind him, enjoy that Bair. If you somehow land behind him after a RAR Bair, expect a kick to snap into your face. It's pretty much like what Kirby can do OOS behind him along with Mega Man, Sheik, and perhaps Wii Fit Trainer. Not to mention Ike, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon. Falco can combo with his Bair despite how strong it is. It's kind of stupid and funny how he can chain clean Bairs early on if you let him - that's 13% per Bair. His Down Smash is as fast as his Dtilt, but covers both sides and does more damage. OOS Down Smash is a great way for Falco to punish someone behind him. Being above and close to Falco just let's him juggle you and while his Uair is slower than Captain Falcon's and ZSS's, it's his ability to jump close to the ceiling and kick you through the blast zone. His Dair is slow, but that doesn't mean it's useless. Don't let him, WFT, Luigi, Ganondorf, Samus, Ike, or anyone with a spike catching you being stupid off stage.

Edgeguarding-wise, Greninja will have an easier time since Falco Phantasm doesn't have a hitbox on Falco making it so he can be caught with anything. He overshoots the ledge and you can Fair, Shadow Sneak, Side Smash, Down Smash, and if he somehow ends up high enough, Up Smash him. Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak off stage will make his day. Fire Bird is slow, so Hydro Pump him and he'll be too far to recover if he's going for an angled recovery. With Distant Fire Bird, the charge is even slower while Fast Fire Bird might have similar startup as Falco Phantasm, but he can't act out of it. In return, a faster recovery with some less distance. Water Shuriken is powerful, but if he knows, he can cover his recovery with Reflector and you can eat a Water Shuriken back.

Falco's edgeguarding would end up being catching you with Fair and gimping or killing you. Nair can do the same, but I doubt Greninja will have trouble unlike Link, Captain Falcon, or Mario. Bair to stage spike and kill, Dair for spikes, and he can make use of Falco Phantasm's trail to run off the ledge and immediately Falco Phantasm back and soft spike you. Speaking of which, whiffing Shadow Sneak off stage might let Falco sof spike you like that. He can gimp with Blaster if the laser hits you right when you jump. Might not be a problem with Greninja's air speed and Hydro Pump, but just something to be aware of if your jump button suddenly stopped working. @BltzZ said his Utilt can scoop people up from the ledge, but I never tried it and it might be really strict timing.

The battle to me probably might end up like a samurai/cowboy vs. a ninja. Neither have a reason to approach and can stay at one end of the stage twiddling their thumbs. Falco wants to be up close and to punish every mistake. Bum-rushing will likely get Greninja jabbed, Ftilted, Dtilted, and Reflector'd or even grabbed if Greninja does something really unsafe against his shield. Greninja playing a hit and run game and ambushing Falco is something that will work since aside from jumping and walking, Falco's slow in the air and on the ground - he has poor horizontal movement, but great vertical movement. Greninja's fast on the ground and in the air, horizontally and vertically. Getting impatient and fishing will just get the either punished andnthest two punish hard.

Just what I feel is going between the two from a basic level. I don't remember any notable Falco vs. Greninja fights. There's this, but I don't think Froge is a seasoned Greninja unlike Manny who played Falco since Melee? Link to video: https://youtu.be/VlAfQT8Qvfc.

oh god, never thought that embarrassing tourney match would end up on the boards

 

[Ffamran]

oh god, never thought that embarrassing tourney match would end up on the boards

It's the only Falco vs. Greninja video I know. Maybe GimR fought Greninja as Falco once, but I don't remember. So, was that you? Manny trolled - those empty hops - like 4 players before getting beat by a Mega Man.

 

[Lawliet626]

It's the only Falco vs. Greninja video I know. Maybe GimR fought Greninja as Falco once, but I don't remember. So, was that you? Manny trolled - those empty hops - like 4 players before getting beat by a Mega Man.

it was
first time EVER playing against a falco so i had 0 experience with him and the first time on stream nerves, but enough with the johns
he did a pretty good job and his punish game was enough to get the job done, although we did play some friendlies afterwards to see how i would do without the nerves and that little falco experience, i won the friendly set, his play style was really though

 

[David Galanos]

Okay so I'm gonna talk about Falcon now:



Jab is your friend. It's fast and can stop Falcon from dash grabbing you depending on the distance between the two characters. If you did something unsafe and you're seeing the dash grab coming, mash jab and hope it comes out before Falcon can grab you. D-Tilt can work too.

Use shurikens sparingly. The shuriken is a great help in this MU as it's a good tool to pester Falcon with and make him come right at you, however if you get too spammy with it you will get badly punished for it. Intelligent use of shuriken can keep Falcon on his toes and limit his approach as well as giving you stage control.

Be patient. Being too aggressive against Falcon is not the best idea, we're already forcing him to come after us thanks to the shuriken, so instead watch what he's going to do and react. Greninja has to play the bait-and-punish game in order to suceed here, leave being aggressive to after you get in an advantageous position.

Be careful with your dodges. Falcon's Side-B can catch us during our rolls and spot dodges and will kill us very easily if we get too predictable. If you notice that the Falcon starts fishing for a side-b kill once you're at a high percentage, be ready to shield when he comes after you as the endlag of the move is very easy to punish with F-Smash

Neutral: Greninja has an edge here due to his shurikens being able to annoy Falcon from a distance. Not only that, Falcon has to respect our dash grab almost as much as we have to respect his. Falcon's frame data is better though, but we do have some nice disjoints in our favor here as well which is good enough.

Advantage: Both characters have terrifying advantageous states, however Greninja is able to keep Falcon in disadvantage for longer thanks to his bad disadvantage state. Falcon is still really dangerous once he gets it going though so be prepared for a lot of pain whenever he catches you.

Disadvantage: Falcon's disadvantage is bad, he really can't do much to escape our juggling thanks to his fall speed and weight, as well as Greninja's very good aerial mobility. Greninja on the other hand can make smart use of Hydro Pump to stop Falcon from getting too many hits in, which by itself makes our disadvantage state a lot better.

Edgeguarding: This is where Greninja really ruins Falcon's day. Hydro Pump really messes up with his Up-B and Side-B when he's trying to recover and being smacked with a B-Air offstage is most likely going to doom him. Falcon does have his perks in edgeguarding us though. His up-tilt can dunk us if we're using Shadow Sneak if we're not careful and his B-Air can be really dangerous. I believe both characters can do a ledge trump B-Air to score a kill on the other as well, so we need to be careful with the ledges

Overall I think Greninja has a small advantage here solely because of his powerful edgeguarding and due to the fact that his disadvantageous state is not bad. Falcon does make up for it by being able to kill us a lot faster than us outside of gimping though and so this MU is one where the tables can turn pretty wildly as the match goes.

I myself wouldn't give Greninja more than a 55:45 in this MU just because Falcon's sheer power coupled with his great advantaged state and mobility makes up for a lot of the trouble Greninja can give him in this MU.

55:45 sounds good to me. Something to add too is that isn't really mu specific but, a lot of falcons are starting to realize holding down a to keep out his jab at the ledge is super good. So if they do that too you can't really side b recover. Also has anyone had to actually deal with this? Where they jab at the ledge. It covers jumping, get up attack, and regular get up. The only thing to do is roll, but it's pretty obvious they know that and they are going to read it. I have found with doing this as falcon myself in training mode that you can't just stop it quickly and do a smash attack but if u know they roll you can. I guess something else you could do is drop down and recover high, but that's not too good of an idea.

Just wanted to share that with people in general, because it's annoying and it's becoming part of his meta for edge guarding.

 

[Lawliet626]

55:45 sounds good to me. Something to add too is that isn't really mu specific but, a lot of falcons are starting to realize holding down a to keep out his jab at the ledge is super good. So if they do that too you can't really side b recover. Also has anyone had to actually deal with this? Where they jab at the ledge. It covers jumping, get up attack, and regular get up. The only thing to do is roll, but it's pretty obvious they know that and they are going to read it. I have found with doing this as falcon myself in training mode that you can't just stop it quickly and do a smash attack but if u know they roll you can. I guess something else you could do is drop down and recover high, but that's not too good of an idea.

Just wanted to share that with people in general, because it's annoying and it's becoming part of his meta for edge guarding.

Has happened to me with almost every falcon ive faced, a good solutions would be to use your recovery and push them away and using the second to quickly go back to the ledge and get up
Another is to quickly drop from the ledge jump and Fair them
Both of these have always worked for me

 

[FullMoon]

55:45 sounds good to me. Something to add too is that isn't really mu specific but, a lot of falcons are starting to realize holding down a to keep out his jab at the ledge is super good. So if they do that too you can't really side b recover. Also has anyone had to actually deal with this? Where they jab at the ledge. It covers jumping, get up attack, and regular get up. The only thing to do is roll, but it's pretty obvious they know that and they are going to read it. I have found with doing this as falcon myself in training mode that you can't just stop it quickly and do a smash attack but if u know they roll you can. I guess something else you could do is drop down and recover high, but that's not too good of an idea.

Just wanted to share that with people in general, because it's annoying and it's becoming part of his meta for edge guarding.

You can probably try doing this, though do be careful with your jumping if you're doing it from the ledge.

Other than than that, Up-Air might be able to shark them.

 

[Ffamran]

Can a rising Substitute work to punish Captain Falcon? Wall jump to Bair might be too slow.

 

[bc1910]

Just ledgedrop Fair. Least risky, most rewarding option.

 

[David Galanos]

Just ledgedrop Fair. Least risky, most rewarding option.

Doesn't work out, from my experience at least. Kinda depends on where he is on the ledge I guess

You can probably try doing this, though do be careful with your jumping if you're doing it from the ledge.

Other than than that, Up-Air might be able to shark them.

And yeah I figured someone would bring that up, I just get scared sometimes and don't wanna mess it up lol, but if it's friendlies I do it fine.

 

[Lavani]

55:45 sounds good to me. Something to add too is that isn't really mu specific but, a lot of falcons are starting to realize holding down a to keep out his jab at the ledge is super good. So if they do that too you can't really side b recover. Also has anyone had to actually deal with this? Where they jab at the ledge. It covers jumping, get up attack, and regular get up. The only thing to do is roll, but it's pretty obvious they know that and they are going to read it. I have found with doing this as falcon myself in training mode that you can't just stop it quickly and do a smash attack but if u know they roll you can. I guess something else you could do is drop down and recover high, but that's not too good of an idea.

Just wanted to share that with people in general, because it's annoying and it's becoming part of his meta for edge guarding.

• Ledge drop → double jump → airdodge through him
• Ledge drop → Shadow Sneak back kick (flip kick won't hit, but the back kick has a higher-reaching hitbox despite the animation)
• Ledge drop → double jump → retreating fair can hit his fist. If you drop really low you can hit Falcon's feet with it, I'm unsure how precise that window is.

 

[LumpyGravy]

Anyone else think Mewtwo is an easy matchup? Large hurtbox, floaty, difficulty landing, all result in him being really easy to juggle and catch with up smash.

 

[bc1910]

You can also just wait for Falcon to stop jabbing if you don't want to deal with this. As long as you're not behind in % on the last 30 seconds or something. He can't hit you with his jab while you're hanging on the ledge, he's going to have to stop and go for a Dtilt at some point. As soon as you notice him stop, just do a ledge attack or ledge climb -> shield.

Simple, effective solutions. Ledgedrop Fair, or wait for him to stop. Don't worry about this Falcon thing guys, FG Little Macs have been doing the same thing since day 1 <3

Mewtwo doesn't feel very problematic for us, yeah. He can give some characters a lot of trouble because his kill power really is very good. He has a ton of powerful kill moves (many of which are safe on block) including what is probably the best kill throw in the game (I'm strictly in the camp of Ness' back throw being overrated in this regard; it relies on good positioning and suffers against proper DI more than Mewtwo's Uthrow). However we aren't the type of character who tends to stand still long enough for Mewtwo to set up a kill move besides up throw, and it can be pretty tough for him to kill us with anything besides Uthrow and fully charged Shadow Ball.

Mewtwo can't land easily against us, probably loses to us up close and dies insanely early to a good read (although that's not specifically a Greninja advantage we have the "bull**** KO move" to make use of that with Usmash).

 

[Ffamran]

Anyone else think Mewtwo is an easy matchup? Large hurtbox, floaty, difficulty landing, all result in him being really easy to juggle and catch with up smash.

You already win in type advantage.

Just worry about challenging in from of him in the air because of Fair and Nair if you mis-space. Behind might not be a trouble since Greninja moves quickly, but Mewtwo can slap you back with Bair.

 

[FullMoon]

Personally I think it's a bit too soon to talk about the Mewtwo MU when the character hasn't even been out for that long and even Mewtwo mains themselves are still trying to figure the character out.

 

[Gunla]

Personally I think it's a bit too soon to talk about the Mewtwo MU when the character hasn't even been out for that long and even Mewtwo mains themselves are still trying to figure the character out.

While this is correct, I did want to get some discussion on the cat (Impressions, I guess?). Might do something with Lucas as well.

Again, much akin to Gunner and Fox, he'll be revisited later this season. They're on the backburner.

 

[Snackss]

Nobody talked about Captain Falcon's jab outside of ledgeguarding? It's a big part of Captain Falcon right now, and Greninja doesn't seem to fare all that well against jabs.

 

[FullMoon]

While this is correct, I did want to get some discussion on the cat (Impressions, I guess?). Might do something with Lucas as well.

Again, much akin to Gunner and Fox, he'll be revisited later this season. They're on the backburner.

Oh, I see.

Nobody talked about Captain Falcon's jab outside of ledgeguarding? It's a big part of Captain Falcon right now, and Greninja doesn't seem to fare all that well against jabs.

Falcon's jab is, well, a jab. It can stuff us up if we try to go for a dash grab but we can also do the same to him. I've also had Greninja be able to act out of the second jab in time to stop the multi-hit before but I don't know if that was patched out.

Though I guess it's worth noting that Falcon's jab can kill. Overall Falcon's jab is the least of my problems when fighting him.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Greninjas out there, Rosalina is now analyzing Greninja at her match-up analysis thread. Greninja's discussion period will last until the end of 5/11, so if you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Greninja match-up, now is the time to do so.