Mastering Ganon's Recovery

[CluelessBTD]

The purpose of this thread is to help players to master Ganon's methods of recovery against each matchup and to counter the opponents choice of edgeguarding tools. Generally, Ganon's recovery seems to be quite predictable and limited, but that is a myth that this thread is here to break. I am here to begin the discussion and allow you guys to expand on the particular advantages of each recovery strategy and which matchups they work best in.

Some of Ganon's options:
"sweet-spotted" upB
High upB
sweet-spotted double jump
Reversed upB
Ledge-tech > upB
Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > upB
Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > Bair
Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > Airdodge onto stage
And the much less common...SideB

The "sweet-spotted" upB
We mostly get screwed on this one unless our opponent isn't so great at edgeguarding. Fox can easily shine/ftilt us, and anyone can go for a simple edgehog.

High upB
You can do this to catch the opponent off guard with the upB's incredible range on the first frame. You can easily catch Marth's hand if he is trying to fsmash/dtilt edgeguard you for example. Or, you can try to space this just right so that Ganon's horizontal warp will get hold of the edge before the attacker can connect.

Sweet-spotted double jump
Easily Ganon's best option, since it can be sweet-spotted well, and most people don't anticipate just how well it can work. It's as though they are just dead-set on the idea that you will be doing an upB at some point...then they don't see it and get confused. Also, down+b can be used to set up a double jump sweet spot.

Reverse upB
Do this to counter Doc/Mario's cape edgeguard. They'll flip you around and you'll catch em in a death hug. Another thing to note is that Ganon has significant backwards warp from doing this, so you can avoid in some cases a Marth dtilt or various ftilt edgeguards, since Ganon's head will be away from the stage. You can also do this to avoid the reverse Uair edgeguard from other Ganon players.

Ledge-tech > upB
Usually a good counterattack against opponents who are at higher percentages. If low, they can usually run right back and finish you off before you can safely get onto the stage. Also, the upB can be difficult to perform fast enough to counter some edgeguards, like repeated dtilts with Marth or Sheik. If that's the case, Reverse upB may have been a better option for you.

Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > upB
This sometimes works to mix it up, but can also set you up for re-edgeguarding.

Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > Bair
This is a f***ing god tier technique. It won't work against well spaced edgeguards like a Marth fsmash. However, in most cases, it is beast. I will cover basic ledgeteching tips below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTUeeXEJOiY#t=2m54s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTUeeXEJOiY#t=3m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE80gZ_STyY#t=45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkLQ7gFgjMU#t=33s

Ledge-tech > Wall-jump > Airdodge onto stage
You don't see this much since Ganon is a sitting duck when he lands, but it can still be effective if your opponent doesn't anticipate it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJRnSK_k51o#t=47s

SideB
This is generally a bad idea, but it is so underused that almost NOBODY will be ready for it. Use it wisely. *cough* This isn't Brawl, don't try to sweetspot it.
Moral victories...haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUrH5his4AE#t=45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fU8fhKRcw#t=3m04s
Victories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiQrpphSYVc#t=2m19s

ADVANCED STRATEGIES
Be creative when being edgeguarded. Keep this in mind and you'll be doing things like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_54hAA3f0#t=4m26s
Which Ganon was it that did this? Using the turnip to launch himself back the stage?! Smart move.

Ledgeteching tips:
I'm not the best at controlling my hands to do this instinctively, but I understand the mechanics and what must be done in order to ledgetech, thanks to Action Replay.
First of all, Smash DI is essential if you want to be a perfect ledgetecher. Press or hold R or L within 20 frames before being hit (don't press it more than once during this period.) Hold your control stick towards the stage in order to ASDI and increase your odds of teching. Wall jump ledge teching is significantly easier to perform in my opinion. You'll do the same thing, but as soon as you are hit, you will roll the stick upwards. This will sometimes register multiple SDI's that will move you closer to the stage and end with a wall jump. To get the wall jump Bair, either learn the timing or just smash the c-stick like a madman till you understand the technique. After wall jumping, remember to DI back towards the stage to incease the odds of connecting with Bair. The Wall jump can be interrupted after the first frame with any attack btw.

Wall-jump techs can also be done by holding any mostly upward direction (up left, straight up, up right) on the stick while teching, or by holding a jump button (X or Y) while teching.

Walljump teching can be done off any edge guard, except Fox's shine, by wiggling the joystick left and right in the upper corner of the pad towards the stage. Low trajectory edge guards like Jiggs dsmash and Sheik's fair need this type of DI. If you just hold towards the stage you might just tech in place. If you hold up chances are you won't tech and just die. Just make sure you keep your left and right movement within that upper 90 degree quarter of the pad. Also moves like Peach's and Samus' dsmash that suck you into the stage don't need this DI. Just hold up and ready the counter.

Please, link videos where amazing happened and give your input. I'll keep updates steady.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Reserved Post

 

[DGoscar]

Good **** clue. Ledge-tech -> Walljump -> bair is too sexy.

What I like to do sometimes is Up-b reaaaally early and air control mindgame them into thinking i'm gonna land on the stage, then pull back and grab the ledge.

 

[spider_sense]

Awesome thread Clue, dude you're so right about the wall-tech bair, it's ridiculously good. Every Ganon main needs to learn this

---> Here's the tech being used at it's fullest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTUeeXEJOiY

 

[-ACE-]

That warlock punch was hilarious Spider. Good stuff on the thread Clue

You won't always catch Doc/Mario with the reversed up-B if they cape it, but it's still a smart move as it sure as hell beats the alternative (death).

Remember Sheik and Peach's dsmashes last long enough to hit you out of any walltech option if they time it right. Regular ledgetech > up-B works great.

Walltech dair.. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWGszuZoBcg#t=1m10s

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Awesome thread Clue. Something you might wat to add is walljump teching can be done off any edge guard, except Fox's shine, by wiggling the joystick left and right in the upper corner of the pad towards the stage. Low trajectory edge guards like Jiggs dsmash and Sheik's fair need this type of DI. If you just hold towards the stage you might just tech in place. If you hold up chances are you won't tech and just die. Just make sure you keep your left and right movement within that upper 90 degree quarter of the pad. Also moves like Peach's and Samus' dsmash that suck you into the stage don't need this DI. Just hold up and ready the counter. You can add that as an additional tip. I never wait to get hit so I can smash DI I just keep it wiggling during my up B and start buffing L or R right before I think I'll get hit.

 

[RockCrock]

Wall-jump techs can also be done by holding any mostly upward direction (up left, straight up, up right) on the stick while teching, or by holding a jump button (X or Y) while teching.

Also, down+b can be used to set up a double jump sweet spot. It can be risky if you opponent doesn't mind off-stage edgeguarding, but it works really well otherwise.

 

[Renth]

using a reverse up b makes it harder for you to get edge guarded it pulls ganons body closer to the stage and makes it very easy to tech, also when being edge guarded by mario/dr marios capes it'll do wonders for you.

 

[BBQ°]

This thread should be hidden. If Ganon had a good recovery then he would be banned.

 

[CluelessBTD]

This thread should be hidden. If Ganon had a good recovery then he would be banned.

Just imagine if Ganon could levitate like in the games....float cancelling Ganons would be beast. Ha

Thx for the input guys, I will keep appending with your knowledge.

 

[-ACE-]

Just imagine if Ganon could levitate

I would recommend taunting.

 

[CluelessBTD]

I would recommend taunting.

If only that were practical in some way...midair taunting :D

Does anyone know at what point during Ganon's downB does he get his double jump back? I mean, so you won't get confused if Falco hits you with a laser during?

 

[Linguini]

I don't know but speaking of down b, tech to down b is the best lol.

During the transformations on poke stadium if you down b theres no lag, it's pretty dope

 

[RestInPeace]

No lag? What do you mean? I'll have to try that out.

 

[RockCrock]

It's not "no lag," but it is less lag. When wizard's foot propels Ganondorf off of a stationary surface (like a platofmr or the stage), the traditional animation of the attack changes so that Ganon goes into an aerial tumble rather than just stopping and standing up. This altered animation reduces the total length of Wizard's foot by 8 frames. When pkmn stadium is transforming, the terrain is broken up and remolded. If you use down+b during the remodling/transformation period, the game perceives Ganon as having left the surface he started on, and thus causes him to tumble (allowing the attack to end 8 frames sooner).

I don't know exactly what frame of an aerial down+b restores Ganon's midair, but i'm pretty sure it's just before the ending quarter.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Oh, ok. He meant the areal tumble thing. I thought he was trying to say it cancels. Good to know.

 

[RestInPeace]

Thanks for the information. I thought he meant it cancels too.

 

[Magus420]

Ledge-tech > upB
Usually a good counterattack against opponents who are at higher percentages. If low, they can usually run right back and finish you off before you can safely get onto the stage. Also, the upB isn't fast enough to counter some edgeguards, like repeated dtilts with Marth or Sheik.

It's fast enough to catch those moves as long as you start it right after the tech.

Also, if they make it back fast enough to hit you again at the edge because they're at low damage don't try to go for the edge and instead pull away a bit and then you can go to up-B again. You'll be able to use edgetech up-B at lower damages more safely this way, though if they are at very low damage where it doesn't even cause knockdown some characters can jump out and reach you off-stage before you have time to do much of anything.

Ledgeteching tips:
I'm not the best at controlling my hands to do this instinctively, but I understand the mechanics and what must be done in order to ledgetech, thanks to Action Replay.
First of all, Smash DI is essential if you want to be a perfect ledgetecher. Hold R or L within 20 frames before being hit (don't press it more than once during this period.) Hold your control stick towards the stage in order to ASDI and increase your odds of teching. Wall jump ledge teching is significantly easier to perform in my opinion. You'll do the same thing, but as soon as you are hit, you will do a 1/4 circle upwards. This will sometimes register multiple SDI's that will move you closer to the stage and end with a wall jump. If you want to guarantee multiple SDI's, hold the stick towards the stage but slightly lower than horizontal before rolling the stick upwards. To get the wall jump Bair, either learn the timing or just smash the c-stick like a madman till you understand the technique. After wall jumping, remember to DI back towards the stage to incease the odds of connecting with Bair. The Wall jump can be interrupted after the first frame with any attack btw.

You don't need to actually hold L/R. Pressing it once works just as well.

There's also no difference between starting with holding the stick slightly lower than horizontal before rotating it upwards compared to starting with it at full horizontal and then moving it upwards. The SDI caused by rotation will trigger at the same location in both cases. For most edgeguarding moves I usually hold straight towards the stage before getting hit then rotate it to up & towards (1/8 circle) and hold it to get a SDI, good DI if I get hit earlier than expected (better than towards & down anyway), optimal DI if I end up missing the tech, and a walljump tech.

When rotating the stick along the outside for SDI it triggers by passing specific points depending on which direction you're rotating.

The ones with Pink arrows are the trigger points for clockwise rotation and the Blue arrows counter-clockwise. Once you cross over/pass those points it will trigger a SDI in the direction your stick is pointing if you're in hitlag. The Orange area is the area that can trigger SDI. Having the stick within the inner Blue area can't cause SDI.

Since there are only 4 points for a direction of rotation, some rotations are inefficient for getting a SDI. Starting at Down-Right and ending at straight Up would only cross one of those points and would result in 1 SDI, and so would starting at full Right and rotating like 10° upwards. If you were to start Right and go up slightly to cross that counter-clockwise point, and then go down slightly down to pass the clockwise point right below it you'd get 2 SDIs from rotation from only about 30° of total rotation.

 

[-ACE-]

It's been so long since I've seen that diagram, forgot where it was located. Thanks Magus.

 

[RockCrock]

SDI is still possible without rotating the stick though, right? If I were to input a stick direction straight left during hitstun from a previously neutral stick position, that would move me to the left, correct? And the same applies for SDI in non-cardinal directions?

 

[CluelessBTD]

SDI is still possible without rotating the stick though, right? If I were to input a stick direction straight left during hitstun from a previously neutral stick position, that would move me to the left, correct? And the same applies for SDI in non-cardinal directions?

Yep. 10chars

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, and if you get hit while not close to the wall and need to get multiple SDIs off you can try to smash straight towards the stage and move quickly to up & towards, so you'd get a SDI from the press as well as one from rotation immediately afterwards. To be safe maybe aim the press part slightly down to make sure you don't skip the upwards rotation SDI point.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Yeah, and if you get hit while not close to the wall and need to get multiple SDIs off you can try to smash straight towards the stage and move quickly to up & towards, so you'd get a SDI from the press as well as one from rotation immediately afterwards. To be safe maybe aim the press part slightly down to make sure you don't skip the upwards rotation SDI point.

How would smashing be any better than just holding it towards the stage? Cuz otherwise you would miss out on the ASDI. Unless, perhaps, you could ASDI by holding the c-stick towards the stage and then immediately smash the joystick towards the stage to get the ASDI + as many SDI's as possible...but then again, doesn't the c-stick completely override the joystick so far as SDI goes?

Assuming you are in hitstun the whole time...
For example, if you were holding the c-stick to the right and then in the frame following you smashed the joystick to the left, what would happen, regarding SDI? Would the joystick input be ignored at that moment? If not, what would happen as soon as you release the joystick? Would another SDI be taken from the c-stick?

I ask this since I am unsure of the interaction between c-stick and joystick during hitstun. Can't test with AR since the c-stick doesn't work the same way. Hope I explained this well enough...

 

[Dorsey]

c-stick is only for ASDI, and will override the joystick's ASDI (holding a direction). You have to use the joystick for SDI (during hitstun). Smashing it allows you to get you the tech when you're at high percents (SDI), and in that case you wouldn't need any additional ASDI to get the tech.

 

[Magus420]

?

You're still holding the direction of up & towards at the end of the motion and would ASDI that way at the end of hitlag. Smashing the direction directly into the 1/8 circle rotation during hitlag is better than just rotating it because you are also getting an extra SDI from smashing a direction to the side, and not just from the rotation.

C-stick doesn't affect SDI, only ASDI. You only want to bother using the c-stick to ASDI in a certain direction if the control stick is going ot be pointing in a different direction when hitlag ends.

 

[RestInPeace]

And when will we ever practically use both sticks to DI?

 

[Magus420]

I use dual stick DI a good amount actually, but mostly for instant ground techs during lag. If I land on the stage or a platform with an up-b I'll tech a KO/combo move if it doesn't send mostly vertical. Also good if you whiff a side-B. I used to only make use of it after rests with jiggs to survive, but eventually incorporated it into my other characters when I know I'll be eating a hit.

 

[-ACE-]

Magus, is C-down and joystick down+towards the best way? I've landed it many times but I don't know how much it depends on the situation.

 

[RestInPeace]

I swear it was CStick down and Joystick down+away, not down+towards. That's the way I do it with Puff after I rest.

So basically, whenever you have to eat a hit, and you're grounded, you can double stick DI and tech it? As long as the hit doesn't send you too vertically, double stick works better than regular DI?