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Marth's Trap Primer (Final Version, Item-Drop Trap Added)

Novaseer

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This guide will provide a step-by-step process for all of Marth’s traps. In fighting game terms, a trap is a series of moves designed to limit the opponent’s options and open them to attack. The classic example is Ryu’s fireball trap in Street Fighter II, where he throws a slow fireball over a knocked down opponent, forcing them to block and give Ryu time for a second fireball. While Marth may not have many combos, he does possess a wide variety of traps, which when strung together well can outperform even the best of combos.

The Landing Trap

Marth’s sword lets him exploit opponents’ vulnerable positions in the air better than most. This loop of baiting and punishing is where most of Marth’s damage in a match will come from.

1. Launch enemy into the air. Setups for this include U-tilt, throws, dancing blade, U-smash, and D-smash.
2. Position Marth on the ground directly beneath foe. Watch the enemy for any sudden momentum shifts.
3. Short hop. This trap requires that Marth attacks as close to the ground as possible.
4. U-air. This attack is quick, long, disjointed, and covers a wide arc. Most characters can’t compete against it with their D-airs.
5. Fast fall. Marth must be the first to land, or else the trap fails.
6. React to target’s reaction
a. They double jump. Return to step 2.
b. They get hit. Return to step 2.
c. They air dodge. Proceed to step 7.​
7. Marth and the opponent both land on the ground next to each other. U-air’s landing lag is 16 frames. Airdodge’s landing lag is 22 frames.
8. Use a quick attack option before the opponent recovers from landing lag. Marth’s side-B, grab, D-smash, and U-tilt are all 7 frames or faster, plus they all launch enemies into the air, resetting the trap.

The D-Tilt Trap

Disclaimer: Not actually a trap. In fact, it's the opposite, as Marth is the one at a frame disadvantage when he attacks a shield. The best way to trap an opponent in their shield is by not attacking, as explained in this thread by Shaya. When people talk about Marth's D-tilt trap, they're talking about how to utilize safe pressure.

1. D-tilt enemy’s shield. D-tilt ends 16 frames after it hits. Shield stun is 2-3 frames, and Marth’s hitlag modifier may reduce a couple more frames. Together this means the enemy will have about 11 frames to act before Marth does.
2. Watch target’s reaction.
a. They dodge. Rolls and spot dodges are a 26-30 frame commitment, giving Marth time to punish with dancing blade even after subtracting his disadvantage. A retreating roll however requires additional time to chase, keeping the opponent most likely safe.
b. They grab or Up-B out of shield. These options are often under eleven frames and will hit Marth guaranteed. However, Marth can space his D-tilt so he's not within reach of these options after poking their shield. The further away he is, the better.
c. They walk or jump. The opponent can re-position at will without fear of retaliation, but Marth will be safe as well.
d. They continue shielding. Return to step 1.​

The Ledge Trap

Smart positioning and patience lets Marth react to most of an opponent’s options on the ledge, netting him the KO. Practice this trap by having a training partner randomly select his actions until you can properly punish every option 100% of the time (except for the ledge getup).

1. Force enemy off-stage and let them grab the ledge.
2. Position Marth just outside the foe’s ledge attack range, this will also be where the enemy ends up if they roll.
3. Wait and watch for the enemy’s action.
a. They do a ledge attack. F-smash them.
b. They do a ledge jump. Setup a landing trap.
c. They do a ledge roll. Punish with dancing blade or grab. If unsure of which side of Marth the enemy will end on, use U-tilt.
d. They do a ledge getup. This is the one option too fast for reaction from this distance, especially since the beginning animation can be ambiguous. Marth can dash grab when he sees his target first moving, but if Marth guesses wrong then any of the other ledge options will succeed. If Marth does nothing, the enemy will at least be in a vulnerable position near the edge.
e. They continue hanging onto the ledge. Keep waiting. After about seven seconds the enemy will be forced to let go of the ledge and re-grab without invincibility. When this happens, walk forward and F-smash their hand.​

The Trump Trap

This is a situational trap that relies on an opponent’s lack of knowledge on their options. If they know how to counter this trap, then don’t try it. But against those who don’t know better, this trap can help turn the tables when Marth recovers from off-stage. From on-stage Marth can quickly steal the ledge by running off and holding back.

1. Grab the ledge immediately after an enemy does, forcing them off in a vulnerable animation. The sooner Marth does this, the more frame advantage he’ll gain, up to nearly 30 frames.
2. Hold away from the ledge to let go.
3. Immediately tap jump while still holding away.
4. B-air as soon as possible. If performed correctly, this attack is guaranteed to hit.

Warning: If the first player to grab a ledge buffers a jump, roll, or attack, they will always perform that action instead of getting ejected from the ledge by a trump, thus preventing any traps.

The Air Trap

The situation for this trap arises on its own sometimes, and it can be set up after a D-throw or falling U-air at low to mid percents, although a landing trap is usually recommended instead.

1. Marth and his opponent must be near one another in the air and falling at similar speeds.
2. Start performing dancing blade and see what the opponent does.
a. They get hit. Continue the upward version of the dancing blade combo for the greatest chance of connecting the swings.
b. They double jump. Stop the combo, fastfall to land, and readjust into a landing trap.
c. They air-dodge. Continue the forward or downward variation of the combo. Time the fourth finishing hit to land the same moment the air-dodge ends.
The Wake-up Trap

It’s possible to punish missed techs with a dash attack, but time doesn't always allow that, in which case Marth can dash in with a sliding shield to begin a trap. Knockdowns are more frequent at low percents after connecting with a horizontal knockback move such as short hop F-air.

1. Position Marth just within grab range near a downed opponent.
2. Hold shield and wait for opponent’s response
a. They do a quick rise or get-up attack. Grab them. Be careful of the get-up attack though, as it deals increased shield damage.
b. They roll behind Marth. Short hop out of shield B-air to catch them.
c. They roll away from Marth. This option lets the opponent escape, unless they’re near a ledge, in which case a short hop out of shield F-air will catch them.
d. They remain downed to drain Marth’s shield. Use Up-B out of shield as a quick surprise attack.
Warning: Be sure to use out of shield actions properly by pressing the jump button while holding shield. Dropping the shield first and then acting will cost 7 frames.

The Jab Trap

In terms of frame data and range, Marth's jab has been overshadowed by his D-tilt. But while D-tilt is perfect against ground approaches, it whiffs against short hops. Marth's jab covers the D-tilt’s weakness by being the perfect anti-short-hop tool.

1. Catch the opponent short hopping towards Marth.
2. Use Jab1. This move is Marth’s fastest attack, hitting on frame 5. The sword covers the aerial space in front of Marth perfectly, and its considerable disjoint (greater than D-tilt's) outreaches most characters’ aerials.
a. They get hit. Use jab2 if they weren't knocked far away enough. Jab’s weakness has been its weak hitstun, making it unsafe on hit against grounded opponents at low percents. However, airborne enemies can no longer shield in-between jab1 and jab2, making this combination safe again unless the opponent is close enough to use a fast aerial.
b. They airdodge. Use jab2. Jab1 can accept an input for jab2 as soon as 15 frames after hit. Jab2 hits on frame 3. This 18 frame delay is smaller than the 22 frames of landing lag from an airdodge, meaning the opponent will get hit.
c. They double jump away. Stop. Marth will recover 24 frames later, quick enough to defend against anything the enemy does next.
Warning: A tipper jab will always be safe on hit, but a non-tipper hit will let the opponent recover from hitstun before Marth until about 80% (earlier if Marth has rage). Marth can still be safe at lower percents if he hits from far enough away.

The Tech Trap

This trap requires Marth has the custom move Dashing Assault (Neutral-B 3). The immense range, priority, and speed of Dashing Assault gives Marth unprecedented ground control, allowing him to punish options he couldn’t before.

1. Send the opponent into tumble state.
2. Charge Dashing Assault one roll’s distance away from the opponent, and wait to see what happens when they hit the ground.
a. They miss their tech. Release Dashing Assault. There’s a moment during a missed tech when the character bounces and can’t do anything.
b. They tech in place. Release Dashing Assault. This attack’s large hitbox and copious active frames make it easy to hit the tech’s short window of vulnerability.
c. They tech-roll toward Marth. Wait for the roll’s invincibility to end and then release Dashing Assault.
d. They tech-roll away from Marth. Unless there’s a ledge to stop them, the enemy will be able to shield before Dashing Assault reaches them—that is if Marth was using reaction. If Marth predicts a retreating roll, he can release Dashing Assault early in order to catch them.
The Edgeguard Trap

Everyone knows about Marth’s superb off-stage game, but for those situations where Marth can’t go deep enough in time to intercept, he can instead lie in wait with this trap.

1. Knock the opponent off-stage, far enough that their only option is to grab the ledge.
2. Have Marth hang onto the ledge. This is the quickest position Marth can act from for the trap.
3. Wait for the moment when the opponent must use an offensive special move to recover or else self-destruct.
4. Place Marth directly in the middle of their intended recovery path and use Down-B. If Marth remains too close to the ledge, the enemy will ledge-snap with invincibility before the counter attack strikes.
5. The opponent is forced to activate Marth’s counter with their recovery attack, thus knocking them away. If they’re not KO’d, return to step 2.

Note: Replace Marth's Down-B with N-air to create a similar wall against non-offensive recovery moves such as Pit's Up-B.

The Item-Drop Trap

This is a powerful yet situational trap that can only happen in a few certain matchups. The easiest way to catch and steal an item is while doing a short hop airdodge.

1. Hold an item.
2. Short hop or full jump over the opponent’s head.
3. Wait until Marth reaches the apex of his jump.
4. Release the item by inputting the grab button without a direction.
5. Fastfall.
6. Marth will land before the item does, free to react to whatever happens next.
a. They get hit. Free combo of Marth’s choice.
b. They attack Marth. The item will hit them.
c. They shield or spotdodge. Grab them as the item bounces.
d. They dash or roll away. Catch the item before it touches the ground and throw it.
e. They jump airdodge and catch the item. Use the landing/jab/air trap depending on how they jump.​

List of catchable items that can appear in a normal match:
  • Sheik’s grenades.
  • Pacman’s fruit.
  • Diddy Kong’s bananas and peanuts.
  • Villager’s chopped timber.
  • Link’s bombs.
  • Toon Link’s bombs.
  • Peach’s turnips.
  • Bowser Jr.’s mecha koopas.
  • Megaman’s metal blades.
  • R.O.B.’s spinning tops.
  • Robin’s tomes and swords
 
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Cazdon

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What is the best way to try and maintain the landing trap on those with good downward aerials and specials, like Pac-man and Bowser?
 

Novaseer

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Update: 1/31/2015
  • Rewrote the entire guide in the style of an instruction manual.
  • Added new “Air Trap” section.
What is the best way to try and maintain the landing trap on those with good downward aerials and specials, like Pac-man and Bowser?
Often Marth can use the wide arc of his U-air to attack an an angle where he can hit but they can't. Marth can also avoid attacks by doing a sweeping U-air moving left-to-right or vice-versa instead of jumping straight up and down. Dive type moves tend to be unsafe on block and have a little bit of start up, so Marth can wait safe in his shield until they're in range of his short hop, at which point the U-air will be too fast for the dive to come out. Other moves like Meta Knight's dimensional cape will turn the landing trap into a guessing game.
 
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EternalFlame

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Good stuff written on here sir, certainly this is part of the fundamentals for Marth's trap game ^^ If I may, I'd like to add a few things to help ya out:

Landing traps are a common tactic for Marths, but just wanted to say that DB isn't the only means of resetting that position. Once the air dodge has been baited, all the other options you listed for setting up the situation are viable for air dodge punishes and to reset the situation once more. DB is handy in case they go off on a side you don't expect, but USmash especially can serve a similar purpose, especially once they've touched the ground. Other setups for the Landing trap is DThrow (can even go for the Air trap or the combo followup to get the opponent further in the air) and UThrow.

DTilt trap is about as it's expected of it, just may want to clarify what distance is safe for Marth to do it. Remember that when DTilt is active, Marth's hurtbox is also extended, allowing stuff like Jigglypuff to be able to outjab you from near full reach of your DTilt (2/3's the sword's length if I remember it right).

I figured Dash getup and dash attack have similar times for reaction purposes, but I do see the point that the getup option is a bit faster. Otherwise, this is good xD

What might help the Trump tactic more is options for getting on the ledge once you see your opponent snap to it. You have stuff like jumping on the ledge, run off and snap (a tactic from Brawl from my memory), or run off and stall with DB1 till snap.

The platform trap really is just UTilting once the opponent is about to land on a platform. If they block, you can just continue until they OoS roll or jump, in which case you go for repositioning and continue/go to landing trap formation. If they roll away from you, you could jump back and UAir/BAir/FAir, the latter two if they force the target off the ledge via trip, can allow you to setup to a Jab lock combo (and you can choose to finish with a USmash, thus resetting back into landing/platform trap situation). The only hole in this strategy is if they
1) choose to go to the top middle platform, which even if you chased with a UAir/DS, they'll be able to more easily reset the situation to neutral
2) FF through the platform and/or air dodge through. UTilt's commitment tends to be it's undoing for this read, but if you know they will do it, it's pretty much the landing trap.

That air trap can actually be setup by the DThrow btw xD If they DI behind you (or even straight above you), you can jump after them and position yourself for the falling DB to chase their air dodge if they go for it. Paired with the DB setup, you can reset trap them to be launched back into the air once more. Do keep in mind that this setup only works from 0-40%, as any higher and the opponent is knocked too far up for the followup. You can also setup the air trap via falling UAir, which should work around 30% - 60%. Please keep in mind that these are just general percentages that may be varied depending on the opponent's weight.

Update: 1/31/2015

Often Marth can use the wide arc of his U-air to attack an an angle where he can hit but they can't. Marth can also avoid attacks by doing a sweeping U-air moving left-to-right or vice-versa instead of jumping straight up and down. Dive type moves tend to be unsafe on block and have a little bit of start up, so Marth can wait safe in his shield until they're in range of his short hop, at which point the U-air will be too fast for the dive to come out. Other moves like Meta Knight's dimensional cape will turn the landing trap into a guessing game.
Do be careful about those dive moves though. Bowser's dive special, for example, can shatter shields easily, so it's never advised to block it when below (unless you feel you can perfect shield it of course xD). Pushback is also another factor that makes punishing dive moves a bit difficult, especially for characters like Toon Link who not only push you away, but lower their hitboxes, making them harder to land any attack on them from their recovery. Punishing dive moves is more reliable when they completely wiff the attack so you don't risk shield deterioration or pushback.

Some other considerations are counters, floaties, and frame 1 attacks, which can definitely throw a wrench into the clockwork of the traps. Counters are what you expect, and those who float won't fall as quickly and can glide away from your ideal setup position enough to force you to readjust the plan (and usually floaties have multiple jumps too which don't help), and frame 1 attacks which can be done after air dodging before they touch the ground. Considering the weakpoints too and the counter actions Marth can take will be more stuff to note for I'd say. I know I'm still writing on some of this stuff on my end, so certainly this is a bit of a learning point for us both here xD If ya keep this up, I'll might just ask if I can link your guide in mine so I can redirect people to the trap stuff you've written here.

Keep up the good work dude ^^ Looking forward to seeing how far you can take this.
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth's advanced metagame in a nutshell.

This is stuff the knowledgeable Marth's knew but never consolidated into one post. Good work.
 

Novaseer

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Update: 2/1/2015
  • Added new section "The Knockdown Trap." "The Wake-up Trap
Thanks for the support guys!

The platform trap really is just UTilting once the opponent is about to land on a platform. If they block, you can just continue until they OoS roll or jump, in which case you go for repositioning and continue/go to landing trap formation. If they roll away from you, you could jump back and UAir/BAir/FAir, the latter two if they force the target off the ledge via trip, can allow you to setup to a Jab lock combo (and you can choose to finish with a USmash, thus resetting back into landing/platform trap situation). The only hole in this strategy is if they
1) choose to go to the top middle platform, which even if you chased with a UAir/DS, they'll be able to more easily reset the situation to neutral
2) FF through the platform and/or air dodge through. UTilt's commitment tends to be it's undoing for this read, but if you know they will do it, it's pretty much the landing trap.
Tons of great info in your post, I appreciate it! I'll definitely work on adding your stuff in the next update.

EDIT: My theory doesn't work apparently. I suspect your outline of the platform trap is the right one, but there are a couple more things I want to test first.
 
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Cazdon

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Update: 2/1/2015

Tons of great info in your post, I appreciate it! I'll definitely work on adding your stuff in the next update. Regarding the platform trap though, I don't have an available human player to test this with, but I theorize there's a way to improve it. What if after forcing a shield on the platform, Marth just waits? The opponent can't attack Marth after all, shield drains over time, and Marth can still punish any rolls or dodges. My question is if Marth can reasonably react to a shield drop and U-tilt before the opponent drops through the platform in an airdodge. If this works the only way the enemy could escape is through an OoS jump, which still isn't an ideal position.
How good an option would nair be in the platform trap situation? It would put you in range of a counter attack, but it could cover rolls yes? What are your thoughts?
 

Emblem Lord

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Always referred to knockdown trap as the wake-up trap since Melee days.

In Melee is was FREE. A missed tech was FREE damage. Literally no character in the game could escape it. You could just dash dance back and forth and whatever they did on wake-up was grab into combo or tipper fair into combo. Too much mobility for them to escape. Missing techs was death in melee.
 

Vipermoon

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I want to mention that in the landing trap you should be able to auto-cancel your up air's landing lag which leaves you with the ability to do whatever you want upon their air dodge landing.

Also I agree with the use of nair on a platform but it could be punished depending on SH or FH, which way you're facing, and the fact that you'll get that dumb nair smash 4 landing lag.

If they start holding shield on a platform, as fast as you can, before you try up tilt or up air (up smash too punishable on shield), just full hop shield breaker. You can even do this from the middle area of battlefield.
 
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LyonDRC

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How much distance does Marth's perfect pivot covers? It may be worth testing since it could help punishing roll aways with a tipper f-smash or shield breaker (?)
 

Novaseer

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Update 2/2/15:
  • Minor adjustments based on feedback from the thread.
  • Removed "The Platform Trap" section.
After looking at the numbers and doing some testing, I've come to the conclusion that there's no true platform trap for Marth. You can of course do a landing trap on a platform just like any other ground, but once the opponent is on the platform there's no way to trap them. For something to be a trap, Marth must be gaining some sort of frame advantage. All sorts of new attacks become safer against someone on a platform but they don't allow any sort of followup. The best chance for a trap relied on U-tilt, but its horrendous 30 frames of lag after hit means that someone can block, drop shield, and fall through the platform with an aerial before Marth recovers. This is especially true if the opponent knows how to platform drop without releasing shield.

This is likely the final major update to the guide unless a patch shakes things up.

Always referred to knockdown trap as the wake-up trap since Melee days.

In Melee is was FREE. A missed tech was FREE damage. Literally no character in the game could escape it. You could just dash dance back and forth and whatever they did on wake-up was grab into combo or tipper fair into combo. Too much mobility for them to escape. Missing techs was death in melee.
If we compare all traps to Melee then I think all of them have been nerfed. Weaker air-dodges plus L-canceling made landing traps better, increased shield stun aided D-tilt, and instead of trumping Melee had edgehogs. The only trap that improved in Smash 4 is the ledge trap, since the opponent can no longer stall and re-grab with invincibility.

I want to mention that in the landing trap you should be able to auto-cancel your up air's landing lag which leaves you with the ability to do whatever you want upon their air dodge landing.
Auto-canceling an up-air is at least a 30 frame commitment compared to the 16 frame commitment of landing. It's possible depending on how the opponent is falling, but it's a much tighter window, so I just go for the fastfall everytime.
 
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Novaseer

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Update 2/12/2015:
  • Added new section "The Jab Trap."
I hardly expected to find a new trap, but here it is. I hope this section proves why Marth's jab is actually a fine move and players can start incorporating it into their game more.
 
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Emblem Lord

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It's not "new", but I get what you mean. Solid AA, but I'm not a fan of jab in general. Still this trap is solid so I need to start jabbing more.
 

Novaseer

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Whoops, to be clear, I didn't mean "I found a new trap" as in "I discovered this." I meant, "I found a new trap (for the guide)."

EDIT: Added a warning about when hitting with Jab is safe or not.
 
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adamlon1

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What is the best way to try and maintain the landing trap on those with good downward aerials and specials, like Pac-man and Bowser?
I would mainly use counter for Bowser if he does his down aerial or down b same but when it comes to Pac-Man I try and destroy the fire hydrant before it gets to the stage using counter and shield breaker
 

EternalFlame

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Hmm, the jab trap still has more application than just what's mentioned, since it can setup to a number of other options too other than just jab 2. They all rely on reading your opponent well however, but I've gotten the setup a few times with some interesting results.

EDIT:
Forgot to clarify this part, but the details on that setup/trap is there on my guide xD To avoid redundency, please look over there for details.
 
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Vipermoon

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Yes if they air dodge, fall, and land after jab 1, you can probably get an uptilt out.
 

Novaseer

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Using anything but jab2 will require an additional 12 frames of lag at the least, pushing the frame gap from 18 frames to 30, making it escapable due to no error on Marth's part. Anything escapable is no longer a trap, but a setup. Technically every trap can become a setup if you're willing to perform a risker move. Example: one setup for the landing trap is to bait the air dodge with an empty hop and use U-smash. The problem with thinking this way is that the setups become nearly limitless and would be impossible to list them all, so instead I've decided to cover none of them.

That said, I do encourage the discussion of possible setups in this thread, and anyone who wants to learn more about them should read EternalFlame's great work on the subject. I simply wanted to take this moment to explain my guide's scope and why it won't mention certain things.

How much distance does Marth's perfect pivot covers? It may be worth testing since it could help punishing roll aways with a tipper f-smash or shield breaker (?)
This is a good idea that unfortunately doesn't work. However, Marth can punish a roll away if he has Crescent Slash equipped for his Up-B. Crescent Slash also helps landing traps during those times when the target lands too far away for Marth to punish with a normal move.


Update 2/14/15:
  • Added new section "The Tech Trap."
Yay, finally looking at custom moves! I should mention that you should only use Dashing Assault in a tech trap, and not a wake-up trap. In a wake-up situation, the opponent can remain downed until Marth is forced to release Dashing Assault, and then use wake-up attack on reaction to punish.

Another tidbit about the Dashing Assault is how it aids landing traps. In a situation where a falling opponent is too far away for Marth to get under with an U-air, he can instead charge Dashing Assault. If Marth releases DA just before the enemy touches the ground, they'll likely either get hit, or airdodge into landing lag and then get hit.

The guide is getting pretty full now. So far every trap Marth can do, Lucina can equally do, except for the jab trap. She loses a lot of safety on her jab without that tipper.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Dashing Assault turns half of FD into land trap territory.

So glad the customs train has finally arrived.
 

EternalFlame

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Using anything but jab2 will require an additional 12 frames of lag at the least, pushing the frame gap from 18 frames to 30, making it escapable due to no error on Marth's part. Anything escapable is no longer a trap, but a setup. Technically every trap can become a setup if you're willing to perform a risker move. Example: one setup for the landing trap is to bait the air dodge with an empty hop and use U-smash. The problem with thinking this way is that the setups become nearly limitless and would be impossible to list them all, so instead I've decided to cover none of them.

That said, I do encourage the discussion of possible setups in this thread, and anyone who wants to learn more about them should read EternalFlame's great work on the subject. I simply wanted to take this moment to explain my guide's scope and why it won't mention certain things.

...
Aaaah, now I got the difference in the definitions xD Learn something new everyday, thanks for explaining it dude. Good thing I've been speaking on all of those as setups instead of traps, otherwise I would have made a terrible mistake xD Suppose listing the setup options I can handle. The trap stuff I'll probably just link people to you for that.
 

Locuan

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Dashing Assault turns half of FD into land trap territory.

So glad the customs train has finally arrived.
Dash Assault is amazing and it leads into jab reset situations. I'm still trying to find more applications for the move.
 

Novaseer

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Aaaah, now I got the difference in the definitions xD Learn something new everyday, thanks for explaining it dude. Good thing I've been speaking on all of those as setups instead of traps, otherwise I would have made a terrible mistake xD Suppose listing the setup options I can handle. The trap stuff I'll probably just link people to you for that.
I should explain that the definitions of these terms differ from community to community and person to person. These are simply the personal definitions I use because I find them the most clear and practical.

"Combo" = A series of attacks all guaranteed to hit. Combo's depend on pure execution.
"Trap" = A series of moves or situation that guarantees at least one hit. Traps rely on smart option coverage with fast reactions.
"Setup" = A series of moves with a high chance of landing a hit. Setups require reading the opponent's psychology while mixing your options.

Between my primer on traps, your guide on setups, and Skull_Kid's list of true combos, we've managed to cover all of Marth's possible attack combinations in-depth. I don't know of another character board that has done this yet.
 
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Megaman11

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A nice setup for the jab trap is simply grabbing your opponent and not throwing him anywhere.( I usually mash jab to get the most dmg possible) then you are at nearly perfect range for a jab on most characters
 

EternalFlame

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I should explain that the definitions of these terms differ from community to community and person to person. These are simply the personal definitions I use because I find them the most clear and practical.

"Combo" = A series of attacks all guaranteed to hit. Combo's depend on pure execution.
"Trap" = A series of moves or situation that guarantees at least one hit. Traps rely on smart option coverage with fast reactions.
"Setup" = A series of moves with a high chance of landing a hit. Setups require reading the opponent's psychology while mixing your options.

Between my primer on traps, your guide on setups, and Skull_Kid's list of true combos, we've managed to cover all of Marth's possible attack combinations in-depth. I don't know of another character board that has done this yet.
Indeed, we've certainly covered a lot of the bases for Marth, but if I may, I'd like to say something just a bit off topic. For convenience sake, I'll put it in a spoiler since it has little to do with the topic at hand xD

Please allow me to properly appologize to you. Thing was I had covered most of the combos Skull_Kid mentioned in the past, so thread redundency and a bit of pride on my part was a problem personally ^^" that pride too also extended towards my misunderstanding of what you wrote initially here as well, so again I do want to sincerely appologize to you and @ Skull_Kid Skull_Kid for that. Still, reason threads like these showed up was due to people having a hard time finding the information they want to begin with (or a lack of people actually looking before posting, since its usually one or the other xD). Even then, its not like information can be patented to any degree for fighting games like this xD It should be info used to help and not for selfish pride, which I regretibly had.

With how things are now, there should be little doubt that people will find what they are looking for in regards to Marth (and probably Lucina too), since everyone has worked hard to put all the information out there. I just wanted to get that junk out of the way so I can work with you properly without any regrets.

Towards the future that will pierce any shield and strike down any opponent; we wielders of the falcion shall continue to forge a path towards true strength!

Now with that out of my system, we've all got a lot of work to do xD Gonna need to put your link up on the guide at some point this week to ensure this resource isn't missed.
 

Novaseer

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A nice setup for the jab trap is simply grabbing your opponent and not throwing him anywhere.( I usually mash jab to get the most dmg possible) then you are at nearly perfect range for a jab on most characters
This is a good idea that can work, but I'd have to recommend against doing it. The victim in a grab release can always shield before Marth attacks. Combine this with Smash 4's re-grab invulnerability, and the victim is essentially invincible for a full second. Also consider how the reward on a jab is only 4-6%. A throw only does 4% as well, but the damage here is guaranteed, and the throw will also send the opponent flying in an unfavorable position.

Indeed, we've certainly covered a lot of the bases for Marth, but if I may, I'd like to say something just a bit off topic. For convenience sake, I'll put it in a spoiler since it has little to do with the topic at hand xD

Please allow me to properly apologize to you. Thing was I had covered most of the combos Skull_Kid mentioned in the past, so thread redundency and a bit of pride on my part was a problem personally ^^" that pride too also extended towards my misunderstanding of what you wrote initially here as well, so again I do want to sincerely appologize to you and @ Skull_Kid Skull_Kid for that. Still, reason threads like these showed up was due to people having a hard time finding the information they want to begin with (or a lack of people actually looking before posting, since its usually one or the other xD). Even then, its not like information can be patented to any degree for fighting games like this xD It should be info used to help and not for selfish pride, which I regretibly had.
If I accept your apology, then I'll be a hypocrite if I don't extend my own apology, as I wasn't devoid of pride myself when I resisted suggestions toward my guide. Whatever your motivations were, your actions have been nothing but helpful, and I only have appreciation for what you've posted here. It's partly out of respect for your work that I've avoided talking about setups since there's no need for me to overlap on a subject that's been expertly handled. Let's continue to work together and share our information.

On another note, I've been experimenting with Storm Thrust. It seems fairly safe in the neutral because of its range. I like how the windbox creates landing traps and ledge traps depending on how the receiver moves. I'd say Dashing Assualt is still better, especially when Marth is in the advantaged state, but I like Storm Thrust better than Shieldbreaker. What are other people's experiences?
 
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Emblem Lord

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Worthless if they block which kills its utility imo. Dashing Assault is beast for Marth's gameplan and harder to punish.

I'm not fond of Shieldbreaker or Storm Thrust, though I wanted to love Storm Thrust so much.
 

Vipermoon

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I absolutely love shield breaker but that's because I have it fully dialed into my game-play and only recently unlocked all of Marth's customs. I can see Dashing Assault is probably better. I just wish it did a little more shield damage. For now, I won't try to learn it because I like the early kills shield breaker allows, whether it hits a shield or a body.
 

Novaseer

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Update 2/23/2015:
  • Added new section "The Counter Trap."
This is the trap that everyone knows about, but for some reason no one uses. Probably because it's the hardest trap to pull off, as the timing changes from situation-to-situation and character-to-character. Plus the risk of failing can equal Marth's death. I still find it worth attempting however, as success spells death for the other too.

Each of Marth's custom Down-B's affect the trap differently. Easy Counter's long duration provides some much needed leeway, but the weak counter attack means the opponent will recover again even at high percents. Iai Counter is the worst for this trap due to its shortened duration, and because the reverse knockback can actually save the opponent.
 
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Skull_Kid

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Please allow me to properly appologize to you. Thing was I had covered most of the combos Skull_Kid mentioned in the past, so thread redundency and a bit of pride on my part was a problem personally ^^" that pride too also extended towards my misunderstanding of what you wrote initially here as well, so again I do want to sincerely appologize to you and @ Skull_Kid Skull_Kid for that. Still, reason threads like these showed up was due to people having a hard time finding the information they want to begin with (or a lack of people actually looking before posting, since its usually one or the other xD). Even then, its not like information can be patented to any degree for fighting games like this xD It should be info used to help and not for selfish pride, which I regretibly had.

With how things are now, there should be little doubt that people will find what they are looking for in regards to Marth (and probably Lucina too), since everyone has worked hard to put all the information out there. I just wanted to get that junk out of the way so I can work with you properly without any regrets.

Towards the future that will pierce any shield and strike down any opponent; we wielders of the falcion shall continue to forge a path towards true strength!

Now with that out of my system, we've all got a lot of work to do xD Gonna need to put your link up on the guide at some point this week to ensure this resource isn't missed.
Did I miss something?
 
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Novaseer

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Update 2/25/15:
  • Changed "The Counter Trap" to "The Edgeguard Trap" to reflect how the same setup can apply with different options.
  • Added new section "The Item-Drop Trap."
It's finally finished! With ten traps in total, this guide now covers every single trap scenario Marth is capable of in the current version of Smash 4. Thanks everyone for reading and helping. I hope I've been of use.
 
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Locuan

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Great work Novaseer. Definitely something I should be re-reading prior to every tournament.
 

Vipermoon

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The thing about Jab 1 > 2 trap on an aerial opponent is most characters will be able to hit Marth with a fast aerial between jabs, does it still classify as a trap?
 

Novaseer

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You're correct, and the guide does make note of this. Whether or not the jab trap is true depends on spacing, percent, the character being faced, and the reactions of the opposing player. None of the traps work perfectly unless the conditions are perfect. That's just the nature of them. If you're facing someone who consistently hits you in-between jab1 and 2, then don't use the trap until there's enough damage for a single jab hit to safely knock them away. Jab2 at that point would just be for catching airdodges.
 
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Vipermoon

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You're correct, and the guide does make note of this. Whether or not the jab trap is true depends on spacing, percent, the character being faced, and the reactions of the opposing player. None of the traps work perfectly unless the conditions are perfect. That's just the nature of them. If you're facing someone who consistently hits you in-between jab1 and 2, then don't use the trap until there's enough damage for a single jab hit to safely knock them away. Jab2 at that point would just be for catching airdodges.
OIC
 

fox67890

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I find this thread to be very legit. It'd be a shame to see it eventually get lost in the forums imo...
May I make some comments/ ask some questions?

My first question goes to the landing trap. I realllllly like this trap and it's very solid given the correct conditions.
However, I have trouble doing it if the opponent is way above. It only really works for me if they're somewhat right above me and not too far up. When they're too far up...I guess I have trouble keeping track of which way they drifting/fastfalling. I know marth walks fast and all, but I lose track of them. Do you have any advice for this? Is it possible that there's a trap that involves full-hopping instead of short-hopping? When they're high up, I feel only waiting till they get close to the ground to be somewhat limited. Sorry if this sounds vague/wordy :\

My next comment is about the ledge trap. First off, I'd like to say that it's amazing imo. Now, I find it to be very advantageous when someone's on the ledge.
I have a problem though. Maybe it's just me (making no exaggeration here, it may just be me), but I have trouble telling exactly which action an opponent chooses the second I see an animation change of them on the ledge. For instance, if they do a ledge jump, I first have to tell myself "okay I see (s)he did a ledge jump, now I should do a landing trap". I guess what I'm asking is if this trap is supposed to be reactionary instead of based on their change in ledge animation, you can tell they're going to do a certain action in time and punish. I can clarify if you need :x

I've been trying another type of ledge trap though, and I'd like your (and other's) opinion on it. It goes like this:
1. Force enemy off-stage and let them grab the ledge.
2. Position Marth at the end of their roll range instead of their ledge attack range, such that if they roll, dtilt will hit them.
3. When you see a change in their ledge animation, quickly dtilt
a. They do a ledge roll. The dtilt will hit them. Can continue momentum at lower percents
b. They do a ledge jump. The dtilt will whiff and they are in the air. I find Marth's utilt/ftilt to be very good here to catch them as they land.
c. They do a ledge attack. Because you are positioned at their roll distance, two things can happen.
i) If they have a short roll distance, dtilt will either trade with their get up attack or beat it out.
ii) If they have a long roll distance, dtilt will whiff and they are completely safe. You have complete stage control though, which is advantageous
d. They do a ledge getup. Because you are positioned at their roll distance, two things can happen.
i) If they have a short roll distance... I think dtilt would whiff since they would still be invincible at that point? I have to recheck that tbh....
iI) If they have a long roll distance, dtilt will whiff and they are completely safe. You have complete stage control though, which is advantageous.
e) They continue hanging onto the ledge. Keep waiting. After about seven seconds the enemy will be forced to let go of the ledge and re-grab without invincibility. Fox trot forward twice. The moment the second fox trot begins, fsmash (I think this is called pivot fsmash, which basically allows you to fsmash out of a dash). This usually leads to a tipper fsmash, but it depends on the roll distance once again. I don't think there's enough time to walk forward and fsmash with this trap, unlike yours.

I've been thinking about maybe doing this trap if they have a short roll distance and the trap you mentioned if they have a long roll distance. What do you think? Do you think I should just stick to one trap because one is superior, and if so, which one?

My next comment is about the trump trap. I'll keep this shorter. Sometimes, instead of bairing them, I'll just let them regrab the ledge. If you bair them, when they regrab the ledge, they'll get invincibility back. If you don't bair/attack them after the trump, they won't get the invincibility back once they regrab the ledge because that would be their second time grabbing the ledge without touching the floor. This makes for easy tipper fsmash positioning. In other words:
1. Grab the ledge immediately after an enemy does, forcing them off in a vulnerable animation. The sooner Marth does this, the more frame advantage he’ll gain, up to nearly 30 frames.
2. The enemy will get trumped and let go of the ledge
3. Hold away from the stage and then immediately jump *back onto the stage* (instead of doing a bair). Position yourself for a tipper fsmash to hit the ledge
4. Wait for the opponent to grab the ledge again. Tipper fsmash.
Of course, some characters don't *have to* go the ledge again after the trump. They could aim to go straight back on stage. You're in position to stop this though.

Next the air trap. I just don't understand this one :'D. Could you clarify it a bit? sorry...
Just a note about the wake up-trap, iirc (which I might not recall correctly tbh...) get up attacks from a downed opponent seem to do a very unreasonable amount of shield damage in this game. Just something to be carful of. I think I once saw someone shield a get up attack and got hit by both hits of the get up attack (due to how close he was to the opponent). His shield broke, and the shield had near full "health"....

Sorry for the wall of text. I just wanted to get everything out in one go, and I've had stuff to say for awhile.
 

Vipermoon

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....

My next comment is about the trump trap. I'll keep this shorter. Sometimes, instead of bairing them, I'll just let them regrab the ledge. If you bair them, when they regrab the ledge, they'll get invincibility back. If you don't bair/attack them after the trump, they won't get the invincibility back once they regrab the ledge because that would be their second time grabbing the ledge without touching the floor. This makes for easy tipper fsmash positioning. In other words:
1. Grab the ledge immediately after an enemy does, forcing them off in a vulnerable animation. The sooner Marth does this, the more frame advantage he’ll gain, up to nearly 30 frames.
2. The enemy will get trumped and let go of the ledge
3. Hold away from the stage and then immediately jump *back onto the stage* (instead of doing a bair). Position yourself for a tipper fsmash to hit the ledge
4. Wait for the opponent to grab the ledge again. Tipper fsmash.
Of course, some characters don't *have to* go the ledge again after the trump. They could aim to go straight back on stage. You're in position to stop this though.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I use this often too and unlike bair, tipper fsmash will kill finger-hit at the edge. The only difference is I use ledge getup instead of double jump to get on stage for two reasons 1) it's faster which is super important here and 2) it has invincibility which can protect you from whatever your recently trumped opponent does.
 

Novaseer

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Hello fox67890, I'll try my best to answer your questions. Healthy discussions like these are what I hoped the guide would encourage. If we accept that what we've found is optimal, Marth's metagame will cease improving.

My first question goes to the landing trap. I realllllly like this trap and it's very solid given the correct conditions.
However, I have trouble doing it if the opponent is way above. It only really works for me if they're somewhat right above me and not too far up. When they're too far up...I guess I have trouble keeping track of which way they drifting/fastfalling. I know marth walks fast and all, but I lose track of them. Do you have any advice for this? Is it possible that there's a trap that involves full-hopping instead of short-hopping? When they're high up, I feel only waiting till they get close to the ground to be somewhat limited. Sorry if this sounds vague/wordy :\
I suffer the same problem if they're high up, as there is guesswork involved with gauging their direction of descent. I wish I had better advice other than to keep practicing. Initially attacking with a full jump may be easier, but it sacrifices any trap potential. The reasons for this are twofold. One: Marth's aerials take longer to end in the air than if they're interrupted with a landing. His U-air for instance takes 35 frames to end naturally whereas the landing lag is 16 frames. Reason two: at full jump height the defender can airdodge without incurring the 22 frame landing lag. A normal airdodge takes 30 frames to complete. This means that an opponent can airdodge any of Marth's aerials and still act first.

My next comment is about the ledge trap. First off, I'd like to say that it's amazing imo. Now, I find it to be very advantageous when someone's on the ledge.
I have a problem though. Maybe it's just me (making no exaggeration here, it may just be me), but I have trouble telling exactly which action an opponent chooses the second I see an animation change of them on the ledge. For instance, if they do a ledge jump, I first have to tell myself "okay I see (s)he did a ledge jump, now I should do a landing trap". I guess what I'm asking is if this trap is supposed to be reactionary instead of based on their change in ledge animation, you can tell they're going to do a certain action in time and punish. I can clarify if you need :x
How much you can tell from a ledge animation depends on the character being faced. Marth for instance does an identical front handstand flip for three of his different ledge actions. Against him you'd have to wait for the actual roll/jump/attack before responding. Is this what you were asking for?

I've been trying another type of ledge trap though, and I'd like your (and other's) opinion on it. It goes like this:
1. Force enemy off-stage and let them grab the ledge.
2. Position Marth at the end of their roll range instead of their ledge attack range, such that if they roll, dtilt will hit them.
3. When you see a change in their ledge animation, quickly dtilt
a. They do a ledge roll. The dtilt will hit them. Can continue momentum at lower percents
b. They do a ledge jump. The dtilt will whiff and they are in the air. I find Marth's utilt/ftilt to be very good here to catch them as they land.
c. They do a ledge attack. Because you are positioned at their roll distance, two things can happen.
i) If they have a short roll distance, dtilt will either trade with their get up attack or beat it out.
ii) If they have a long roll distance, dtilt will whiff and they are completely safe. You have complete stage control though, which is advantageous
d. They do a ledge getup. Because you are positioned at their roll distance, two things can happen.
i) If they have a short roll distance... I think dtilt would whiff since they would still be invincible at that point? I have to recheck that tbh....
iI) If they have a long roll distance, dtilt will whiff and they are completely safe. You have complete stage control though, which is advantageous.
e) They continue hanging onto the ledge. Keep waiting. After about seven seconds the enemy will be forced to let go of the ledge and re-grab without invincibility. Fox trot forward twice. The moment the second fox trot begins, fsmash (I think this is called pivot fsmash, which basically allows you to fsmash out of a dash). This usually leads to a tipper fsmash, but it depends on the roll distance once again. I don't think there's enough time to walk forward and fsmash with this trap, unlike yours.

I've been thinking about maybe doing this trap if they have a short roll distance and the trap you mentioned if they have a long roll distance. What do you think? Do you think I should just stick to one trap because one is superior, and if so, which one?
This is a creative variation I hadn't thought of before. The problem I see are the rewards. Waiting produces stronger punishes (such as F-smash against a ledge attack) and greater frame advantage than reacting early with a D-tilt. The merit with your version is how it lowers the burden of execution. Correctly responding to one of five possible actions, each requiring a unique reaction, can sometimes be overwhelming. I'd say which ledge trap version to use is up to the player.

My next comment is about the trump trap. I'll keep this shorter. Sometimes, instead of bairing them, I'll just let them regrab the ledge. If you bair them, when they regrab the ledge, they'll get invincibility back. If you don't bair/attack them after the trump, they won't get the invincibility back once they regrab the ledge because that would be their second time grabbing the ledge without touching the floor. This makes for easy tipper fsmash positioning. In other words:
1. Grab the ledge immediately after an enemy does, forcing them off in a vulnerable animation. The sooner Marth does this, the more frame advantage he’ll gain, up to nearly 30 frames.
2. The enemy will get trumped and let go of the ledge
3. Hold away from the stage and then immediately jump *back onto the stage* (instead of doing a bair). Position yourself for a tipper fsmash to hit the ledge
4. Wait for the opponent to grab the ledge again. Tipper fsmash.
Of course, some characters don't *have to* go the ledge again after the trump. They could aim to go straight back on stage. You're in position to stop this though.
Interesting. I don't have my 3DS at the moment, so I'll have to get back to you on this, as there are a few possibilities I need to test.

Next the air trap. I just don't understand this one :'D. Could you clarify it a bit? sorry...
Ah, I see now how my first explanation was pretty vague. Basically have Marth and his opponent stand next to each other and full jump at the same time. When they both start falling you're now in the situation for an air trap. If Marth begins dancing blade and the other airdodges, the defender will remain next to Marth during the entirety of the airdodge. This means when the airdodge ends, the defender will still be in range for Marth's final dancing blade hit. Does this help?

Just a note about the wake up-trap, iirc (which I might not recall correctly tbh...) get up attacks from a downed opponent seem to do a very unreasonable amount of shield damage in this game. Just something to be carful of. I think I once saw someone shield a get up attack and got hit by both hits of the get up attack (due to how close he was to the opponent). His shield broke, and the shield had near full "health"....
You recall correctly. Get-up attacks do possess increased shield damage. I'll add a warning to the guide. Thanks!



EDIT: I've had some practical experience with the trump and ledge trap variations, and here's what I'm finding. In regards to the trump trap, not going for the guaranteed B-air lets the opponent jump back on the stage about the same time Marth can get up. The opponent's options at this point before landing are to either dodge, attack, or wait to land first. Marth can over one or two of these options through attacking or shielding, but not all three, so this scenario remains a setup and not a trap.

Now the ledge trap using D-tilt. Here's what I find happens in regards to each option:

a. They do a ledge getup. Either the d-tilt whiffs, or it goes through the invincibility. If it goes through the invincibility, the opponent will have the opportunity to hit Marth's extended hurtbox with a jab.
b. They do a ledge jump. The dtilt will whiff, putting Marth at a frame disadvantage and forcing him to rely on an unsafe tilt instead of a landing trap.
c. They do a ledge attack. Either the D-tilt whiffs and they're safe, or Marth is too close and gets hit. This is because ledge attacks have greater range than D-tilt combined with invincibility.
d. They do a ledge roll. Even against shorter rolls I can't find a spacing for D-tilt that covers both the roll and closer ledge options. Hitting a roll with D-tilt doesn't seem as rewarding as other options.
e. They continue hanging onto the ledge. This is mostly the same, but the timing is stricter.

My conclusions are that the trump setup increases risk for more reward, so it can be worthwhile to try sometimes if you really need that kill. But I'm now against using D-tilt in the ledge trap, as waiting seems both more powerful and safer, unless there's something I'm misunderstanding.
 
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fox67890

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Hello fox67890, I'll try my best to answer your questions. Healthy discussions like these are what I hoped the guide would encourage. If we accept that what we've found is optimal, Marth's metagame will cease improving.
Thank you sir ^_^
I completely agree with you~
Discussions can influence your in-game potential.

Novaseer said:
I suffer the same problem if they're high up, as there is guesswork involved with gauging their direction of descent. I wish I had better advice other than to keep practicing. Initially attacking with a full jump may be easier, but it sacrifices any trap potential. The reasons for this are twofold. One: Marth's aerials take longer to end in the air than if they're interrupted with a landing. His U-air for instance takes 35 frames to end naturally whereas the landing lag is 16 frames. Reason two: at full jump height the defender can airdodge without incurring the 22 frame landing lag. A normal airdodge takes 30 frames to complete. This means that an opponent can airdodge any of Marth's aerials and still act first.
Ahhhhh, I gotcha. In other words, either swing true and make sure you hit, or at least position yourself so that you can fast fall the up-air to the ground. That makes sense. I think I still want to look into full hopping, maybe as a way to at least limit which way they drift, but the fact that an opponent can airdodge Marth's upair and still act first is problematic...



Novaseer said:
How much you can tell from a ledge animation depends on the character being faced. Marth for instance does an identical front handstand flip for three of his different ledge actions. Against him you'd have to wait for the actual roll/jump/attack before responding. Is this what you were asking for?
Yeah, this answered my question with a good example. it's reactionary. I was using the trap you mentioned in a reactionary fashion and I wasn't sure if I was doing it right.



Novaseer said:
This is a creative variation I hadn't thought of before. The problem I see are the rewards. Waiting produces stronger punishes (such as F-smash against a ledge attack) and greater frame advantage than reacting early with a D-tilt. The merit with your version is how it lowers the burden of execution. Correctly responding to one of five possible actions, each requiring a unique reaction, can sometimes be overwhelming. I'd say which ledge trap version to use is up to the player.
Actually, I've been thinking about it, and I think I'm going to stick to the trap you mentioned. I don't particularly really mind the potentially greater punishes you can get with waiting (although it's definitely nice), but the greater frame advantage seems really useful to me. With practice, I'm hoping execution won't be too much of a problem.


Novaseer said:
Ah, I see now how my first explanation was pretty vague. Basically have Marth and his opponent stand next to each other and full jump at the same time. When they both start falling you're now in the situation for an air trap. If Marth begins dancing blade and the other airdodges, the defender will remain next to Marth during the entirety of the airdodge. This means when the airdodge ends, the defender will still be in range for Marth's final dancing blade hit. Does this help?
I understand this now. I think I'll be sticking to the landing trap for obvious reasons you've mentioned in this thread previously. This one feels kinda "iffy" to me.

Novaseer said:
EDIT: I've had some practical experience with the trump and ledge trap variations, and here's what I'm finding. In regards to the trump trap, not going for the guaranteed B-air lets the opponent jump back on the stage about the same time Marth can get up. The opponent's options at this point before landing are to either dodge, attack, or wait to land first. Marth can over one or two of these options through attacking or shielding, but not all three, so this scenario remains a setup and not a trap.
My conclusions are that the trump setup increases risk for more reward, so it can be worthwhile to try sometimes if you really need that kill.
When I tried the trump thing I mentioned, I felt like I could generally cover the opponents options to get back onto stage well. But I definitely agree that it's more of a setup and increases risk for more reward. I think it's something to at least consider if you can pull of a trump.


Novaseer said:
Now the ledge trap using D-tilt. Here's what I find happens in regards to each option:

a. They do a ledge getup. Either the d-tilt whiffs, or it goes through the invincibility. If it goes through the invincibility, the opponent will have the opportunity to hit Marth's extended hurtbox with a jab.
b. They do a ledge jump. The dtilt will whiff, putting Marth at a frame disadvantage and forcing him to rely on an unsafe tilt instead of a landing trap.
c. They do a ledge attack. Either the D-tilt whiffs and they're safe, or Marth is too close and gets hit. This is because ledge attacks have greater range than D-tilt combined with invincibility.
d. They do a ledge roll. Even against shorter rolls I can't find a spacing for D-tilt that covers both the roll and closer ledge options. Hitting a roll with D-tilt doesn't seem as rewarding as other options.
e. They continue hanging onto the ledge. This is mostly the same, but the timing is stricter.

But I'm now against using D-tilt in the ledge trap, as waiting seems both more powerful and safer, unless there's something I'm misunderstanding.
I think my experiences were consistent with "a"

The same goes for "b", but I didn't find it very unfavorable because Marth's titlts have a nice disjoint. It's not as preferable as the landing trap for your ledge trap though.

For "c and d" , If they have a long roll (like captain falcon iirc), then dtilt will almost always whiff. I think your trap is better because whiffing the dtilt in general isn't as frame reliable as I thought. If they have a short roll (like...I think Robin?) though, I think dtilt worked. If you're getting hit, it sounds like your aiming for the tipper part of dtilt to hit the ledge. I think I aimed for the tipper part of it to hit where that character would end up onstage after the ledge attack. I can't test it right now though, and my memory might be failing me, so I could legitimately be wrong here. Either way, it's starting to sound shaky, and I think I really would prefer the frame advantage from your trap. It sounds better, and in a way, simpler.


One more thing. This ledge trap depends on an enemy only having the basic ledge options. Some characters have extra "special" options, such as Sheik's bouncing fish/Fox's and Falco's Illusion and phantasm/ Zss's flip thingy/Diddy's monkey flip iirc. "My" ledge trap did poorly against these types of options due to, once again, the frame disadvantage of dtilt. I find that in general though, these actions are *somewhat* hard to react to. Is there a way to fit these types of options into your ledge trap? I guess if you could react, you could just shield. I haven't tried your trap vs these options yet. What would you consider to be the best option (although that might change depending on the enemy character)?

The item drop trap sounds interesting. I'll give it a try when I get the chance~
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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Vs chars like Zelda, Falco, etc it's pretty common and accepted knowledge that they really can't be trapped.

basically don't get down on yourself for not being able to trap untrappable characters.
 
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