Marth vs Jigglypuff

[Europhoria]

I have a few questions about match ups I don't have much practice with.
Jiggylpuff is monstrously floaty. As a result, she can be a nuisance to combo and even kill sometimes. I suppose I could also apply the longevity problem to Peach or Samus on a stage like Dream Land 64, so keep that in mind as well.
#1) How do I combo Puff? What works well at what %? Or should I just be looking to mind game for tippers?
#2) What single hit moves kill Puff on the larger stages? As at the higher % I have problems setting her up into a tipper and she is relatively difficult to ledge guard as a result of her floaty recovery. (Especially on a stage like Dream Land 64 or DK 64)
#3) Same essential question but for Peach and to a lesser extent Samus as Samus is far easier to edge guard.

-Thanks

 

[JesiahTEG]

hmm, jiggs. I"ve never really played a good jiggs, so I don't know too much about the matchup, but there are a few things that work for me.

1. Backthrow->Fsmash usually messes jiggs up pretty bad
2. When I approach jiggs, I do it differently than I approach any other character. I approach with fsmashes. All I do is WD around and Fsmash, it seems to work pretty well, but i've never played any good jiggs, so idk

 

[Randizzle]

1. fair combos jiggs really well
2. tippered fsmashes, ftilt or utilt kills jiggs pretty well. If you manage to spike the jiggs, that works too.

 

[HoshiPuri]

Once you get a jiggly to 80-100% of damage, the up tilt is guarenteed to KO.

 

[FrostByte]

Keep jiggs away with ftilts and jabs. You can use over b as a setup for a tilt/smash. Against a sh bair camping jiggs, you should nair out of your shield because it stays out longer than a fair. If jiggs goes for another bair, it gets hit. Then there's the tipper'd dsmash, which will kill jiggs around 60%. A fully charged one will kill at 37%

 

[Giggidax]

fair owns jiggs.
fsmash is a great finisher. work on spacing that tipper

utilts/ uair have pretty good range, keep that jigglypuff in the air above u, hopefully theyl waste their jumps or something lol!

for edgeguarding, hog the ledge and then when they try and recover above ledgehop uair if theyre in range. avoid getting pounded/ fair'd while ur on the ledge. use ur invincibility frames haha

 

[Dark Sonic]

I actually sort of know this matchup. F-throw to f-smash works at low percentages, but if they DI into you then the don't get tipped by the smash (at least they got hit.) However, D-throw to F-smash requires DI in the opposite direction so it's easy to mess up their DI by mixing your throws.

This match isn't really about massive combos or anything like that. It's more about tacking on any damage you can while keeping her at bay. Use F-tilts and Jabs to stop her aproach (note that F-tilt gets through pound if spaced properly) and be extremely carefull with f-smashes. Jigglypuff can pound through your f-smash if not spaced and trade hits. That means Jiggs will get hit away while you get pounded in the same direction for an easy wall of pain.

Avoid getting above Jigglypuff because her Uair has a very large hitbox and your dair has a lot of lag if you decide to use that to get her off. Try to stay grounded as much as possible because Jiggs much faster in the air than you do, but is very slow on the ground.

The best time to get a grab is while she's getting close to the ground to refill her jumps. Get close and dashdance in wide strides to try to get her to wiff a bair and then grab her before she lands. If she lands before you get to her, then switch to a normal dash grab instead of a JC one. The dash grab actually grabs low enough to get her while she's crouching.

Avoid landing behind Jigglypuff as her Bair has a lot of range and is easy for her to follow if you get hit by it. It's much better to take a fair than a bair and you should be spacing your self in front of her to avoid anything they could possibly do anyway.

For edgeguarding a Jiggs that likes to recover to the ledge horizontally just F-tilt them as they get close to you. They'll most likely DI back out trying to avoid the hit, but the F-tilt is fast enough to catch them (and tip them thanks to thier DI.)

If they like to recover from low then SHFFL a dair to get them as they're jumping up to the ledge. If you miss the dair then roll away from the ledge to avoid anything Jiggs can do from there.

If they recover from above see if they're in range for a Uair. If not then there's really nothing you can do. Just let them come back and stay under them to put some pressure on them. They'll probably want to float back away from you to avoid any utilts and uairs, which means they'll have to recover closer to the ledge and you can go back to the other two options.

I'll do my best to answer any questions you still have.

Feel free to debate any of these ideas. Even though they work on most of the Jigglypuff players in my area, they might not work on everyone.

 

[TedBoosley]

Having played against Dark Sonic's Marth as Jiggs a couple of times, one thing he does that really puts the pressure on me is d-throw to wavesmash. I DI out of the initial grabsmash, and immediately start thinking about my next approach, and then I get wavesmashed.

Though, to contribute some of my own advice, you have to pick up the trash in this matchup. Good DI will prevent many of your combos, but the fact is, if you get Jiggly to like.. 90% with single hits, an u-tilt tipper will kill her on most stages. Lots of Marths seem to have this mentality that every time they hit with an aerial, they're a failure if some sicknasty tipper combo/spike combo doesn't follow.

Also, mix up the grabs. Trick them. F-Throw when you think they think you're gonna d-throw, and viceversa. I suggest you avoid b-throw, since good DI puts Jiggs way the hell in the air, and your only option becomes an uair or a bair, and not even that at high percentages.

Good spacing and restraint on the f-smash is extremely important in this matchup.

Oh, and jump into aerials from f-throw.

I almost posted the Anden/Azen match, but that thing is older than god himself.

 

[TedBoosley]

Oh, and for edgeguarding, hogging is an extremely poor choice. Rising pound will consistently get them high enough with solid jumps to make a successful recovery. You're better off going for a ledge spike as they rising pound up (it's slow, but don't get tricked by an aerial, and don't let the pound hit you), dtilt to poke them off the stage (puts them at a crappy angle with fewer jumps), guard them with nairs/fairs if they come high, and wait for the air dodge onto the stage, or just nair their air dodge.

On second thought, you can justify a hog if you ledge hop bair them as they approach, assuming they don't expect it and think you're going for a traditional edgehog.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Nice tips Ted, although you realize I'll be using everything you say against you at the next Gigs. BTW I'm Dark Sonic for those of you who don't read sigs. I'd like to hear your opinion on what Marth should do against a pound happy Jiggs. It's easy to avoid getting hit, but it messes up my spacing a lot and the only thing I've really done about it is throw out some Foward Tilts.

I also need to fight your Jiggs again 'cause I don't even remember the last time that happened. A also want to see if your Jigglypuff's style is affected by your Marth.

 

[TedBoosley]

Nice tips Ted, although you realize I'll be using everything you say against you at the next Gigs. BTW I'm Dark Sonic for those of you who don't read sigs. I'd like to hear your opinion on what Marth should do against a pound happy Jiggs. It's easy to avoid getting hit, but it messes up my spacing a lot and the only thing I've really done about it is throw out some Foward Tilts.

Space and punish. You can probably get a wavesmash tipper out of a missed pound, since there's a point where the puff is completely immobile in the air.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^ Wow, that was fast. Also, what is the best way to DI if I'm getting wall of pained by the Bair. I tend to DI straight up to make Jiggs use her jumps , but I want to know if I can avoid the other Bairs altogether.

 

[Europhoria]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've been using a hit and run strategy but I wanted to know if there was something I could that was a bit more flowing. Wavedashing into a Fsmash or Utilt is random otherwise I just try to kill with aerials.
I'll try that d-throw some. Never thought of that (frankly I don't use that throw much cause most people around me play some sort of space animal).
Any ideas for peach though?

 

[Randizzle]

swat away her turnips (but catch a dot-eye or stitch-face if you want too), and combo her with fairs. Forward throw leads into combos pretty well at low percents. Good peaches really like to mindgame their recoveries so stay on your toes when trying to edgeguard. Peach dies really easily to spikes and meteors if you can land one. Fsmash and utilt and dsmash kill.

 

[DOPL]

^^ Wow, that was fast. Also, what is the best way to DI if I'm getting wall of pained by the Bair. I tend to DI straight up to make Jiggs use her jumps , but I want to know if I can avoid the other Bairs altogether.

I can't say I'm terribly familiar with this match up, but I think varying your DI is a good way avoid getting hit. Most Jiggs I've played against are capable of using the WoP well enough, but DIing up or down can make following you with another bair difficult if they don't guess correctly. On the other hand, if they've already used a few of their jumps DIing up and burning up the remaining ones can let you get back to the ground. I think what it comes down to is intelligent play based on the situation, because there's no set way to escape.

 

[Europhoria]

For the vs. Peach game, does the d-throw work like it does on Puff?

 

[FrostByte]

Jiggs isn't as floaty as puff so the dthrow only works at low % and with bad DI. The Fthrow > WD > Fsmash works at low & and near the edge.

Any ideas for peach though?

The main problem against peach is that she can effortlessly penetrate marth's game with her high priority and can **** from there on. Your best bet is not to let her get into you. If the peach turnip camps, catch them and throw them back.

If the peach approaches with a turnip, do NOT catch/swat or you will get crownslapped/pushed. Use a Ftilt before the turnip gets to you and Marth's sword will go underneath it and hit peach as she tries to approach. Fair combos are a godsend against Peach, just be very cautious with your spacing while trying not to miss. If you are too close or miss your fair, you can get a high priority attack down your throat.

 

[ArcNatural]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've been using a hit and run strategy but I wanted to know if there was something I could that was a bit more flowing. Wavedashing into a Fsmash or Utilt is random otherwise I just try to kill with aerials.
I'll try that d-throw some. Never thought of that (frankly I don't use that throw much cause most people around me play some sort of space animal).
Any ideas for peach though?

Never neglect that down throw, even against space animals, if they think your gonna up throw them they won't have time to tech a f-throw or d-throw if you do it fast enough. Often leads to free F-smashes.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Taken from my marth guide (which is still in progress btw):

Jigglypuff: There is more to this puff ball than meets the eye. Beware of its rest, uair combos, and bair combos.

Approaching jigglypuff:

The trick here is to not approach. Perform fairs without moving forward – spacing is crucial. Something that works well is wavedash to fsmash. Jigglypuff is too slow to evade it in time and gets hit.

Defending against Jigglypuff:

Some jigglypuffs will try to roll in front of marth then crouch hoping marth will grab. If marth grabs, jigglypuff gets a free rest. Also be careful with fsmashes or any other laggy move such as the dolphin slash (up B). Jigglypuff is slow enough that if the fsmash is spaced correctly, marth doesn't get punished for it.

Be careful when using bair against jigglypuff when it is off the stage, because its side B attack sends marth out behind it.

Again, in summary: grab rarely, fair in place, wavedash to fsmash.

Note: marth's standing grab cannot grab jigglypuff when it's crouching. A running, non jump-cancelled grab can grab jigglypuff, but the lag from a missed grab is probably not worth the grab.

 

[Randizzle]

Never neglect that down throw, even against space animals, if they think your gonna up throw them they won't have time to tech a f-throw or d-throw if you do it fast enough. Often leads to free F-smashes.

plus, if the space animal techs, you get to techchase with it. It's sometimes useful when platforms get in the way of chaingrabbing with the uthrow. also, free smashes are always nice.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I just wanna let you guys know, I guess the jiggs players are havin trouble with Marth. If you wanna spy on them and get some info on what they do against marth, here's the thread.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=105088

 

[flaco]

here are some tips on fighting the puff ball
Flaco vs Zorin
Round One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLbDQQtYHao
Round Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO5ZGZYrjTE
Round Three: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2EJRCt-wNw

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dude, you roll way to much and lay off the F-smash. That Jiggs didn't seem to good in my opinion. Random rollout=Phail.

 

[Miggz]

Here is a vid of me fighting Jiggz with Marth. I use a few mindgames that really help. The key is to save your second jump when she knocks you out the ring. Hope it helps, let me know what yah think. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vtK4XI4GcQ

 

[Raistlin]

^^ Wow, that was fast. Also, what is the best way to DI if I'm getting wall of pained by the Bair. I tend to DI straight up to make Jiggs use her jumps , but I want to know if I can avoid the other Bairs altogether.

As much as I'll hate doing this, I'll give you some tips. I'm not sure how useful they are, because we haven't tried them in practice, Sonic, but I know my character pretty well, so they make sense to me. At mid- to low-percentages you're probably going to want to DI up and TOWARD me. During the WoP I'm continually following you out with bairs, right? This DI will cause you to still be hit, but you'll be close enough, what with me following, because that's how it works, where you'll be hit toward the stage. That's the best you can hope for, really, because you're going to get hit no matter what. Remember, her fair and bair hit in opposite directions right up ons. At the higher percents I'd say just DI away, probably up because that's harder to follow and makes it easier for you to get back, and you'll be out of range.

 

[Raistlin]

Here is a vid of me fighting Jiggz with Marth. I use a few mindgames that really help. The key is to save your second jump when she knocks you out the ring. Hope it helps, let me know what yah think. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vtK4XI4GcQ

That Jigglypuff was not very good, no offense to you or your friend. He didn't edgeguard well and he apparently doesn't know how to DI your throws to avoid the tipper.

Sorry about double post, BTW.

 

[Miggz]

No offense taken. ^^

I'm sure he will work on his DI in the near future. At least I had a cool approach that seems to work on Jiggz overall. I just have to get into C-sticking my fairs, so I can improve my spacing a bit.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That Jigglypuff was not very good, no offense to you or your friend. He didn't edgeguard well and he apparently doesn't know how to DI your throws to avoid the tipper.

Sorry about double post, BTW.

I got the same feeling throught the match. Thanks for the advice, even though I'll most likely use it against you.

 

[Raistlin]

I got the same feeling throught the match. Thanks for the advice, even though I'll most likely use it against you.

I know you will. But as much as I dislike giving out tips on how to beat my character, I know that I need to think of the Smash community first rather than myself. Because I mean, if I win while the other guy doesn't know all the tricks, I would hardly count that as a real win. Plus, I can use it for mindgames, trying to guess if you'll follow my advice and try to punish accordingly