Marth Patch Notes v1.0.4

[Random4811]

I'd really like to get someone who can do solid testing with the two to get in here, because I'm tired of hearing one thing about Marth, and then next second its not true.

 

[EternalFlame]

do you have solid proof of the measuring working that way or just having selective memory. If it is true that's neat and all but I'd rather have a way to know other than hearsay consindering all of the "buffs" have been debunked as of so far for marth

If its proof you want, then go test it yourself xD But seriously, I would but my hands are tied currently. Either way, its good to get the info out there so whoever is actually able to get the screens/data can.

Based on information I had recieved beforehand on this very board, I was told that DAir only spiked at the tip during 1.03
http://smashboards.com/threads/does-marths-dair-still-meteor-in-ssb4.368925/
http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-meteor-too-narrow.371115/
If you try the move yourself currently, you can confirm it. When I am able to get a recording out, I will do that as well. Just use Ganon and go for a SH spike with the specifications of the hitbox I mentioned earlier. That will clear whether I'm telling the truth or not on the matter.

As for the dthrow, I cannot confirm, nor do I actually entirely believe in the buff. It appears to be confirmed by a lot of people here and is currently on the general patch notes post mentioned earlier. If there's anyone to ask for solid proof from, it will be from all who claim it being 100% true.

 

[Vex514]

do you have solid proof of the measuring working that way or just having selective memory. If it is true that's neat and all but I'd rather have a way to know other than hearsay consindering all of the "buffs" have been debunked as of so far for marth

I don't have any video, but like I said, I tested it and immediately updated and tested it again. Unless my eyes are failing me or I inputted a slight dash before each of my smash attacks, I was hitting a tipper one strip farther.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Marth's range is unchanged.

 

[Lavani]

You never needed to tipper to spike with dair in this game, the opponent just needed to be directly below Marth. It's been that way from the start.

 

[EternalFlame]

You never needed to tipper to spike with dair in this game, the opponent just needed to be directly below Marth. It's been that way from the start.

Then what of all the others that claimed the need for the tipper to begin with? Those two sources I referenced went without rebuttal until now. Its a nitpicky thought really xD but this point is something to consider.

All that really matters is that the DAir works as it shoud, and if whether the buff was truly present or not, people can sorta feel encouraged to use it now.

 

[Lavani]

Then what of all the others that claimed the need for the tipper to begin with? Those two sources I referenced went without rebuttal until now. Its a nitpicky thought really xD but this point is something to consider.

All that really matters is that the DAir works as it shoud, and if whether the buff was truly present or not, people can sorta feel encouraged to use it now.

I don't know what you want me to tell you. dthrow>uair was always doable and people thought that was new with 1.0.4 too, the fact that the details weren't properly explored doesn't mean the character was buffed.

 

[EternalFlame]

I don't know what you want me to tell you. dthrow>uair was always doable and people thought that was new with 1.0.4 too, the fact that the details weren't properly explored doesn't mean the character was buffed.

But the issue isn't the dthrow>uair (I'm not defending that xD), its the fact that the DAir spike no longer needs the tipper. I'm only stating that before the patch came out, a number of people said that the DAir needs a tipper to spike, and no one from the community argued against it. One of the posts was before my entry here on SmashBoards, but the second link was when I was around to ask about it (which was roughly a month ago). Had it not been the case, I imagine someone would have pointed this out, like what you just did.

Marth didn't need the tipper to spike in previous iterations of Smash, but as far as I know for the earlier renditions of Smash 4, you needed the tipper. Only asking that you consider that point xD

 

[Lavani]

But the issue isn't the dthrow>uair (I'm not defending that xD), its the fact that the DAir spike no longer needs the tipper. I'm only stating that before the patch came out, a number of people said that the DAir needs a tipper to spike, and no one from the community argued against it. One of the posts was before my entry here on SmashBoards, but the second link was when I was around to ask about it (which was roughly a month ago). Had it not been the case, I imagine someone would have pointed this out, like what you just did.

Marth didn't need the tipper to spike in previous iterations of Smash, but as far as I know for the earlier renditions of Smash 4, you needed the tipper. Only asking that you consider that point xD

Consider this some rather late evidence to the contrary then. Unpatched my game back to 1.0.1 for this:

 

[Foodies]

Marth needed the tipper to spike in Brawl. In Smash 4, the Dair spike hitbox is right below Marth (as Lavani mentioned/has shown). It's possible to tipper dair but have it not spike.

Untippered: 11%
Tippered: 13%
Spike hitbox: 14%
(training mode %s)

I don't see why we need to argue if the spike hitbox is a tipper or not since it's basically a different hitbox. Also, I still have no reason to believe Marth's dair (or anything even) has been changed in the patch. Except the ledge counter glitch.

 

[Zano]

they took that out? Man, guess I can't mindgame my opponent by letting them win now

 

[EternalFlame]

Marth needed the tipper to spike in Brawl. In Smash 4, the Dair spike hitbox is right below Marth (as Lavani mentioned/has shown). It's possible to tipper dair but have it not spike.

Untippered: 11%
Tippered: 13%
Spike hitbox: 14%
(training mode %s)

I don't see why we need to argue if the spike hitbox is a tipper or not since it's basically a different hitbox. Also, I still have no reason to believe Marth's dair (or anything even) has been changed in the patch. Except the ledge counter glitch.

There be a difference between that discussing and arguing sir xD (<- being nit picky)

Have to keep in mind the information presented at that point in time, no correction from anyone at that point, and a lack of spiking during the time of 1.03 from me personallyr. I only Spiked with the context that I needed to tipper it as well. Lavani has proved with 1.01 Marth didn't need the tipper to spike so that buff has been debunked.

I'm inclined to agree with you that Marth hasn't changed really, and Marth really did not need any changes. Also, I stand corrected on that Brawl Marth needed the tipper to spike. What can I say? I'm only practicing Smash 4 now, and Brawl is but a distant memory xD

Consider this some rather late evidence to the contrary then. Unpatched my game back to 1.0.1 for this:

I'll commend you for your efforts to prove contrary xD Hopefully you didn't lose too much progress from your original savefile

 

[IceColdSoda]

I feel like the hitboxes for some of his moves have been placed better. It could be placebo but pre-patch, I felt like some of my moves would just pass by people but now it feels like attacks are connecting better.

 

[Zano]

my attacks are still passing through people just as much as they did before. I hate how nair works and I can just completely miss hitting them while they land inside of it

 

[_Relapse_]

Could Marth being able to combo out of grabs easier be due to the suggested removal of vectoring?

 

[Zano]

edit: nm wrong thread, but yeah vectoring is gone

 

[CE_TheLord]

As for the dthrow, I cannot confirm, nor do I actually entirely believe in the buff. It appears to be confirmed by a lot of people here and is currently on the general patch notes post mentioned earlier. If there's anyone to ask for solid proof from, it will be from all who claim it being 100% true.

Well, sadly I can't confirm it by video, but pre-patch it was imposible for me to combo with Dgrab. I have 2 theories.

1) The removal of vectoring or some tweaks to DI

2) Placebo effect (Which IMO seems unlikely because I swear I never got a combo with Dgrabs on Marth until patch 1.0.4)

 

[Zano]

or you could scroll up and see this was covered. and you could combo off dthrow prepatch

 

[EternalFlame]

Well, sadly I can't confirm it by video, but pre-patch it was imposible for me to combo with Dgrab. I have 2 theories.

1) The removal of vectoring or some tweaks to DI

2) Placebo effect (Which IMO seems unlikely because I swear I never got a combo with Dgrabs on Marth until patch 1.0.4)

Oh yeah, the combo was rather picky to get prepatch, and it still feels that way now. The removal of vectoring does help however. Ah well, I get my damage off of other things xD

 

[CE_TheLord]

Well yeah, now Marth feels more like a threat... not like Melee's Marth, but better than Brawl's Marth IMO

 

[Mangoh862]

YES! finally! i've been waiting for them to buff his reach, i mean his main thing is reach and spacing but he could barely do that pre-patch. here's hopin' they keep buffing his reach until its melee length. heck how about they drop everything and remake melee and make it a huge patch XD jkjk but that would be awesome ;~;

 

[InfinityCollision]

You never needed to tipper to spike with dair in this game, the opponent just needed to be directly below Marth. It's been that way from the start.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the spike hitbox has priority over the other dair hitboxes. If you connect with a downwards hitbox but not the tipper, it won't spike.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think it matters whether it spikes or meteors at this point though (might be minute difference), if they're at kill % they're probably dead since meteor cancelling is gone (thank god).

Also the vectoring tweak is a godsend for the Hero King. Going forward this will solidify him as a mid-high monster.

 

[EternalFlame]

I don't think it matters whether it spikes or meteors at this point though (might be minute difference), if they're at kill % they're probably dead since meteor cancelling is gone (thank god).

Also the vectoring tweak is a godsend for the Hero King. Going forward this will solidify him as a mid-high monster.

Agreed xD

I'm just happy that Marth will be around mid, so most should not complain about that matchup (though probably some still will ^^")

 

[TTTTTsd]

I play Marth as a very very tertiary/secondary mainly to mess around but moreso because I imagine that some of his matchups fix some very large holes in the gameplans of the character I do play more frequently. That and my friend tried to tell me Lucina would be better in the final product, and now that it's not true, I play Marth every now and then =3.

In regards to the changes made to him, yeah, this makes his followup game much more solid and lets him squeeze out more options out of his still above average grab reach. Even things like Utilt benefit from no vertical vectoring.

 

[EternalFlame]

Well truth in regards to Lucina vs Marth in an actual play setting is a bit debatable still (as its consistency vs percision). Early kill times go to Marth, but Lucina will have the easier time getting the kill at higher percents due to the sour spots. But this isn't the place to discuss those differences xD

Yeah, his gameplay isn't braindead anymore, forcing a lot of Marths to be more consious of their movements. Marth in this itteration is probably the best he's been in terms of overall fairness and ability in my personal opinion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Marth's kill power is just great in this game. Even non-tipped things can kill really well, makes me wonder why I'd bother with Lucina TBH. I mean, beyond character preference.

His sword got clipped and he's more fair, but boy did a fire get lit in this man's arms and head.

Also Countering a big FSmash and winning with it is ALSO quite a nice feeling.

 

[EternalFlame]

The non tipped can kill well, its just at a certain percentage point (around 120% ish), Marth knocks them too far away for a followup, but not enough to kill. That's where he needs the tipper to finish them off, while Lucina can easily just swat them away and be done with it. Some call her an easier character to use for that reason, so depends on where a person stands on that.

Oh yeah, definitely a great feeling to counter someone hard and finish them with it. Though funny enough, my best counter victory was with Shulk vs Ness xD

 

[TheZage]

Even now i am still convinced of a change in range. Not much range at all, but rather a repositioning of the tipper's hitbox further towards the tip of the blade(and a bit past it). During 1.03 i aimed my tippers at the tip and an inch or two more inward. This may not apply to all attacks, but no matter how i try and ignore it, I FEEL this change. This is driving me crazy!

 

[Zano]

Well yeah, now Marth feels more like a threat... not like Melee's Marth, but better than Brawl's Marth IMO

uh, no.

lol

no

 

[Foodies]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-52#post-18024448

The only change is "more misc script". But anything like damage, hitbox size, trajectories, etc should've been noted if found. So no changes to range or anything.

 

[Shadestars]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comm...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-52#post-18024448

The only change is "more misc script". But anything like damage, hitbox size, trajectories, etc should've been noted if found. So no changes to range or anything.

This is correct, there seem to be literally no changes to Marth according to the datamine. Y'alls eating placebo burgers. Any change to his gameplay is the result of the change to DI.

 

[Comorant]

The changes to DI honestly have been a major help. Dancing Blade is a lot more consistent, and so is setting up combos.

 

[Shaya]

Marth may have had a sword size increase, we don't know, that wouldn't show up because it would be a MODEL change.

Script wise nothing was changed.

Comboing out of throws is better because of removal of vertical vectoring (holding up = 0 follow ups from 0%)

Also Marth's tipper down air spiked in Brawl, but the spike/meteor effect in Smash 4 also existed in Brawl (and Melee) which just turned his entire leg-area, tippered or not, into a spike.

 

[Foodies]

Having a model increase in sword range would be useless if the actual hitboxes didn't change though, which from what I can tell is a script change.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His sword looks quite long on the wii u version by comparison.

 

[Shaya]

Having a model increase in sword range would be useless if the actual hitboxes didn't change though, which from what I can tell is a script change.

Hitboxes are centered around an object (known as a bone, in Marth's case it's usually the sword).
If the object size is increased, things are just realigned.

It wouldn't mean that the hitboxes would get bigger, but rather their maximum 'reach' would by however many units off the 'center' now is.

 

[Foodies]

Didn't know that, interesting.

 

[Zano]

don't listen to him, he's just making up words now

 

[The Cheese]

From playing prepatch Marth, I realized that a LOT of times, my attacks would just like barely miss, when I know they SHOULD be connecting...now that his range and coverage were buffed.....well...I'm happy.... X3

Agreed.