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Marth matchups

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CitizenSNIPS

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If anything Marth really is all about baiting/punishing and poking now. Your best option against ZSS is to bait the grabs or predict rolls and if she happens to be in the air then you can poke her with Fair.
Yes, I play a baiting/punishing Marth most of the time. I mentioned in my post I was having difficulties doing so against ZSS. Against really aggressive ones I can't punish rolls/grabs because they are constantly attacking. She seems to be really quick and able to control the match of the pace very well which makes it difficult to punish. I played about 10 or so matches against a really good ZSS who I believe plays Project M/Sm4sh competitively and the way our matches went he either destroyed me or I would barely win.

Should I be following her in the air? I'm really not familiar with her character much at all so I'm not sure what her weaknesses are.
 

Shaya

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When I play against ZSS online I'm baiting the grab a lot. Most are really poor players who only know how to charge laser into dash grab.

Walking and down tilt is the key to applying pressure.
Shield attacks into punishes, expect/respect the grab; short hopping puts you over the hitbox of the grab in a position you can fair her (at or around the apex of the jump).

Counter things like down b kicks and panic down airs.

I currently believe she doesn't have answers to dash assault.
 

KillLock

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To be fair I stated that before I was even aware of his roll cancel grab, which is pretty sick.
 

Tattles

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I found that against Villager, you can counter Timber, which obviously has a very long set-up time. In For Glory, people will usually just assume you're being stupid and throw the second chop on the tree as you run into it (which would obviously be the time to counter). Assuming this also applies to other characters with a counter, except for maybe Palutena?

Other than that, Marth's off-stage is also very overwhelming against Villager since, like Timber, both of his recovery methods are very predictable; allowing for a well-timed f-smash tipper/dair spike as he slowly approaches.
 

CitizenSNIPS

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I must be out of the loop, what is this roll-cancel grab tech you guys are talking about?
 

Kinslayer

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I must be out of the loop, what is this roll-cancel grab tech you guys are talking about?
Basically it's exactly what it sounds like man. You input a roll but then you hurry and cancel into a grab with the first few frames. You get the momentum of the roll, but with a grab instead. It is basically a Kara grab that just uses the roll to extend the grab range and not using an attack.
 
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Random4811

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How are you guys dealing with ZSS? I would say that overall that is the biggest problem matchup for me. Can't seem to catch her at all, and her ranged moves keep me from playing aggressive. Playing the baiting/punishing game hasn't gone too well for me, she seems to have really good movement and rushdown capablities
My training partner mains ZSS, so I know all of her frame data by heart and can punish her every move, essentially- So, my opinion really shouldn't matter, but she's not a big problem for us. She's kind of slippery with her Down B, but everything else she has is counter bait, at the very least. We have a good amount of punish options against her, and all of her moves have very visual startups (even if they dont take long to pop out) so you can easily switch gears and punish what she is doing quickly. She can combo us a little, but we out prioritize everything (I think) she has in the air and with some apt timing we can juggle her no issue (don't let that dair scare you, you can easily stop it with any aerial if your timing is right.) Other than that, its insanely easy to SH fair over her paralyzer shots, you can even reliably SH SB over them. I don't know if she has enough time to shield or not between the paralyzer being fired and your SH fair/ SH SB, but I'm pretty sure she doesnt. Use that to your advantage. Otherwise, bait her into attacking your shield and use your OoS options against her, and try to dash grab/pivot roll cancel grab her and throw her around.

We shouldnt have many problems with her at all, honestly. Other than my training partner, I've never had a problem against ZSS. He can kick my butt though, if I'm not super careful. (Ofcourse, he knows me really well, and he's the slightly better player.)

As for Robin as a bad MU? No. Just absolutely no. You can bait out most of his attacks with no harm done to you. You can either counter or shield his smashes and make him whiff his smashes with clever spacing and some apt dance moves- leading to his best option (K.O. or otherwise- the Levin Sword-) going away for a bit. After that, he's Marth food. He's so slow and easy to juggle, and you can pull off certain attack chains as if they were full on combos with him most of the time because he's just abysmal to get up (maybe it has to do with his weight?) So knocking him around is no problem. His projectiles are almost a joke, because thunder requires atleast a little charge to be particularly useful. If he wastes his tome spamming regular thunder at you, he loses another one of his better options. Arcfire can be shielded safely, jumped over, countered, dodged out of, etc. It can lead to racking up some damage if you aren't careful, though.

As for Palutena, with default load out she is pretty well garbage. Her projectile is really hard to land, so its really easy for us to dodge. Other than that, shes able to be juggled and none of her smashes or tilts are very scary. Her aerials almost shouldnt be mentioned they're that bad against us. I cant think of a single Palutena I've lost to, or even had trouble with. Custom Palutena may be a different story, though.

Outside of them- Lucario is particularly difficult for me to deal with. He's really easy at first, but once his rage builds up his recovery is too damn good and his specials are all much scarier, including his counter. It makes him hard to approach at higher percents.

Good MU's- Dededee and Charizard.
DDD is really really really easy to juggle, its laughable how easy it is to reflect his Gordos, his moves have some start-up lag to them so they can be punished pretty consistently, and other than his up B, he really lacks anything even remotely scary to use that he can consistently use. The Down B can be countered, though.

Charizard is as easy to juggle, and he's twice as easy to kill because his recovery is laughable. Its about as bad as Macs, if not as bad as it. His strongest move has start-up lag, so it can be countered or shielded no problem. His smashes and such arent much to worry about, as they have pretty bad range.
 

Kinslayer

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My training partner mains ZSS, so I know all of her frame data by heart and can punish her every move, essentially- So, my opinion really shouldn't matter, but she's not a big problem for us. She's kind of slippery with her Down B, but everything else she has is counter bait, at the very least. We have a good amount of punish options against her, and all of her moves have very visual startups (even if they dont take long to pop out) so you can easily switch gears and punish what she is doing quickly. She can combo us a little, but we out prioritize everything (I think) she has in the air and with some apt timing we can juggle her no issue (don't let that dair scare you, you can easily stop it with any aerial if your timing is right.) Other than that, its insanely easy to SH fair over her paralyzer shots, you can even reliably SH SB over them. I don't know if she has enough time to shield or not between the paralyzer being fired and your SH fair/ SH SB, but I'm pretty sure she doesnt. Use that to your advantage. Otherwise, bait her into attacking your shield and use your OoS options against her, and try to dash grab/pivot roll cancel grab her and throw her around.

We shouldnt have many problems with her at all, honestly. Other than my training partner, I've never had a problem against ZSS. He can kick my butt though, if I'm not super careful. (Ofcourse, he knows me really well, and he's the slightly better player.)

As for Robin as a bad MU? No. Just absolutely no. You can bait out most of his attacks with no harm done to you. You can either counter or shield his smashes and make him whiff his smashes with clever spacing and some apt dance moves- leading to his best option (K.O. or otherwise- the Levin Sword-) going away for a bit. After that, he's Marth food. He's so slow and easy to juggle, and you can pull off certain attack chains as if they were full on combos with him most of the time because he's just abysmal to get up (maybe it has to do with his weight?) So knocking him around is no problem. His projectiles are almost a joke, because thunder requires atleast a little charge to be particularly useful. If he wastes his tome spamming regular thunder at you, he loses another one of his better options. Arcfire can be shielded safely, jumped over, countered, dodged out of, etc. It can lead to racking up some damage if you aren't careful, though.

As for Palutena, with default load out she is pretty well garbage. Her projectile is really hard to land, so its really easy for us to dodge. Other than that, shes able to be juggled and none of her smashes or tilts are very scary. Her aerials almost shouldnt be mentioned they're that bad against us. I cant think of a single Palutena I've lost to, or even had trouble with. Custom Palutena may be a different story, though.

Outside of them- Lucario is particularly difficult for me to deal with. He's really easy at first, but once his rage builds up his recovery is too damn good and his specials are all much scarier, including his counter. It makes him hard to approach at higher percents.

Good MU's- Dededee and Charizard.
DDD is really really really easy to juggle, its laughable how easy it is to reflect his Gordos, his moves have some start-up lag to them so they can be punished pretty consistently, and other than his up B, he really lacks anything even remotely scary to use that he can consistently use. The Down B can be countered, though.

Charizard is as easy to juggle, and he's twice as easy to kill because his recovery is laughable. Its about as bad as Macs, if not as bad as it. His strongest move has start-up lag, so it can be countered or shielded no problem. His smashes and such arent much to worry about, as they have pretty bad range.
Zard doesn't have bad recovery it goes vertically further than mario's but he also has his 3 jumps, flare blitz, and up B at his disposal. All these add together for solid recovery.

Dedede does have some slow start up on some moves, but you're over exaggerating how slow his moves are. Also once they do come out they either have good recovery or nice knockback. Not to mention the size of his hitboxes are crazy.
 
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Random4811

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Zard doesn't have bad recovery it goes vertically further than mario's but he also has his 3 jumps, flare blitz, and up B at his disposal. All these add together for solid recovery.

Dedede does have some slow start up on some moves, but you're over exaggerating how slow his moves are. Also once they do come out they either have good recovery or nice knockback. Not to mention the size of his hitboxes are crazy.
Zard can be gimped really easy, though. Flare blitz may as well be Macs side B, because he can't do anything in the air for a few seconds after. His B Up never seems to go that high on FG, because once I get Zard off stage out of Macs recovery zone, he's done for. Sure, they could potentially be used to recover well If no one is coming at you, but its really really easy to gimp him.

DDD isnt terrible by any means, nor is he not someone who should be feared if you arent careful. But we win in a match up, I think, against him. They do have start up lag, and in that we can either counter or be over him in time to dole out an attack, and if we can get him in the air, we can juggle him pretty easy.
 

Icyie

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How do you beat out or juggle a dedede who Fairs everytime I get close to him offstage?

And how do you punish roll spam -> Gordos or jab combo?
 

Shaya

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Well, on wifi, you do not.

Dedede is the only consistent character I lose to on wifi. And it's not because I'm getting out played. It's literally because gordo into back roll into charge smash attack (or ftilt, dtilt or hold jab) has very little you can do about it if you cannot power shield, cannot grab OoS reliably (which you can offline) or cannot react to charge releases on his smashes (all quite slow) with counter, so counter is for the most part super useless.

At this stage, if I come up against a dedede who only gordo back rolls, I just double SD. I make a point at the start of any match to press side b, back roll, then charge an fsmash about 2-3 times in a row from the opposite side of the stage (don't care if I get hit during this) and then play the match normally, until I see them do that, then I just double SD. I'm not here to play such a pathetic strategy that doesn't work offline.

I do the same with Samus/link/etc: press [side] b, then back roll, press b, then back roll. I communicate my disdain for their flowchart strategies before they even do them, and the moment they do them, I leave. It's such a clear thing on my conscience, I stopped feeling "oh, they think I rage quit because I couldn't handle them"; because I showed them what they were going to do (as Marth/Lucina) before anything even happened (considering my 75% win rate out of some 500+ matches, I definitely can beat those strategies, I would just rather not bother).

I also go through the FE cast 1 at a time, win or lose, Lucina > Robin > Ike > Marth. Marth is basically the final boss, which I let people get to if they're not lamers. I have had people get to my Marth and start just roll-> smash attack, and then I just roll around for 10 seconds into smash attacks without doing anything to the opponent, then SD.

tl;dr don't play marth/lucina on wifi unless you want to suffer against brain dead flow chart strategies that have no place in competitive play.

If you're referring to offline play
We can beat dedede fair from below him with fair, uair, bair, and can to some extent outspace with neutral air (but super risky). Otherwise, his forward air is pretty slow start up, you can legitimately counter into it on reaction offline.
Our back air does out reach his aerials in a lot of scenarios, you should focus on using that until you're confident with the other options.
It's very easy to walk and jab to pressure Dedede, it covers us perfectly and quickly for anti-gordo, and if you respect immediate dash grab or down tilt in CQC, you're a much better character.
 
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kj22

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Well, on wifi, you do not.

Dedede is the only consistent character I lose to on wifi...
Marth on wifi is pretty bad. It's very hard to space or be aggressive at all, especially with people rolling all over the place.
 

Random4811

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Well, on wifi, you do not.

Dedede is the only consistent character I lose to on wifi. And it's not because I'm getting out played. It's literally because gordo into back roll into charge smash attack (or ftilt, dtilt or hold jab) has very little you can do about it if you cannot power shield, cannot grab OoS reliably (which you can offline) or cannot react to charge releases on his smashes (all quite slow) with counter, so counter is for the most part super useless.

At this stage, if I come up against a dedede who only gordo back rolls, I just double SD. I make a point at the start of any match to press side b, back roll, then charge an fsmash about 2-3 times in a row from the opposite side of the stage (don't care if I get hit during this) and then play the match normally, until I see them do that, then I just double SD. I'm not here to play such a pathetic strategy that doesn't work offline.

I do the same with Samus/link/etc: press [side] b, then back roll, press b, then back roll. I communicate my disdain for their flowchart strategies before they even do them, and the moment they do them, I leave. It's such a clear thing on my conscience, I stopped feeling "oh, they think I rage quit because I couldn't handle them"; because I showed them what they were going to do (as Marth/Lucina) before anything even happened (considering my 75% win rate out of some 500+ matches, I definitely can beat those strategies, I would just rather not bother).

I also go through the FE cast 1 at a time, win or lose, Lucina > Robin > Ike > Marth. Marth is basically the final boss, which I let people get to if they're not lamers. I have had people get to my Marth and start just roll-> smash attack, and then I just roll around for 10 seconds into smash attacks without doing anything to the opponent, then SD.

tl;dr don't play marth/lucina on wifi unless you want to suffer against brain dead flow chart strategies that have no place in competitive play.

If you're referring to offline play
We can beat dedede fair from below him with fair, uair, bair, and can to some extent outspace with neutral air (but super risky). Otherwise, his forward air is pretty slow start up, you can legitimately counter into it on reaction offline.
Our back air does out reach his aerials in a lot of scenarios, you should focus on using that until you're confident with the other options.
It's very easy to walk and jab to pressure Dedede, it covers us perfectly and quickly for anti-gordo, and if you respect immediate dash grab or down tilt in CQC, you're a much better character.
Gordos arent much of a problem considering you can deflect them with a hit, ruining anything the DDD was trying to set up. From there, its really easy to get him into the air and juggle. Even online. I've never played a DDD I couldnt easily handle online.
 

Random4811

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How do you beat out or juggle a dedede who Fairs everytime I get close to him offstage?

And how do you punish roll spam -> Gordos or jab combo?
If you KNOW he's going to fair when you get close, counter. Deflect his gordos, its not hard to do. If the gordo doesnt hit him, it'll likely bounce or stick in the ground, making him unable to Gordo spam.
 

Shaya

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In that case they just throw gordos downwards from the air to make a vertical bouncing wall.

But:
Down Tilt, Jab and Ftilt outrange our sword, with jab and ftilt out disjointing it. They're all around 10 frame moves or so.
Dsmash and Usmash have been buffed heavily, he retracts his body and sweeps at a very far range, fairs or other actions are very easy for him to up smash out of shield against us, spacing around it isn't reliable. Both out range us by a bit.
In a positional disadvantage, dedede's larger sweeping aerials cannot be reacted to properly to avoid them due to wifi lag.
Now take forward smash, something that is like 3x our range, hitting above and in front. Its release from a charge is pretty fast (like most Smash attacks this game), and otherwise they can hold it for a... second and a half. What's the risk/reward for this move for dedede in lag? Almost 0 risk, with a reward being killing us with it at like 50-60%. You can see it coming before it comes out, but that doesn't mean you can do anything about it; there's no risk to dedede holding the charge and waiting just a moment longer when you're in the optimal position to counter, otherwise we cannot punish it out of shield, it outranges counter so we actually have to be "within" its range to beat it.

Offline I'd power shield such stuff. Or react to the charge release with counter.

Anyway please don't double post if its immediately after a post you just made. I may double post, but I'm pretty sure that's because I've come back hours/days later to add something new, not just being lazy about multiquoting people in a single post.
 

Shaya

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Okay, so bias but here are the match ups I think we'll be struggling with this game:

:4sonic:

That's about it. Here are some nuisances:
:4dk::4lucario::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik::4yoshi::4diddy:

I'm still yet to ascertain Marth's power level in this game, as he is still so similar to his Brawl stature in all but numbers, it's really hard to pinpoint whether he's going to end up 60:40ing everyone (like in Brawl for the most part, towards the uppers were like 55:45s) or as low as 40:60ing everyone. Either way, I don't think there's anyone to blame for losing but yourself, unless that ass hole plays Sonic.
This is with mostly base moveset in mind, neutral/normals and what have you; all of our 'good' custom specials seem to give little extra opportunities for punishes or hard punishes (or survival) but I think it's fair to say that our hard match ups will not suddenly just turn solid advantages with dash assault in mind.

Match ups in this game thus far don't go the same way as they do in Brawl, and it's the reason why instead of going with out of 100, we decided to go by this plus/minus system up to 4, match ups that would probably be 80:20 in real "other fighting community terms" (i.e. MK vs everyone) would be +2 a lot of the time for how we ended up thinking about match ups; the reason for this was because in most match ups there was a clique the character could exist in that made them strong/viable (usually through camping) for as long as that could be maintained, the opposing character wouldn't necessarily have any means of getting around it, but the better character shouldn't really put themselves in that scenario in the first place (but eh, within a region, results could show anything to correspond to that). Marth played even with most characters at top level, but still by design had advantages the opponent's character didn't naturally have tools to deal with. Stuff like Marth being crippled on the ledge by Triple Jump/RCO Lag (and so many other characters were dealt with similar/worse ****) usually cost him stocks and could probably be put into an out of 100-games ratio but by design or by some notion of "player skill avoidance" we tended to ignore (or downplay) those negatives unless they were truly unavoidable (pre-100% we had a lot of different ledge options still, post 100% there's... two).

Avoid the grab and the match up is even doesn't seem to be a consideration we have to take in this game. There isn't much more to be concerned with other than face value common fighting, ability to revenge kill/mount a come back to some extent but it's minor. So for me to say disadvantage, there is no hocus pocus, other than perhaps stages (FD meta is kinda sickening and is still all I have to really go off).

We'll see how we go with others, but I think we should be keeping the above in mind.
 
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Random4811

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Okay, so bias but here are the match ups I think we'll be struggling with this game:

:4sonic:

That's about it. Here are some nuisances:
:4dk::4lucario::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik::4yoshi::4diddy:

I'm still yet to ascertain Marth's power level in this game, as he is still so similar to his Brawl stature in all but numbers, it's really hard to pinpoint whether he's going to end up 60:40ing everyone (like in Brawl for the most part, towards the uppers were like 55:45s) or as low as 40:60ing everyone. Either way, I don't think there's anyone to blame for losing but yourself, unless that *** hole plays Sonic.
This is with mostly base moveset in mind, neutral/normals and what have you; all of our 'good' custom specials seem to give little extra opportunities for punishes or hard punishes (or survival) but I think it's fair to say that our hard match ups will not suddenly just turn solid advantages with dash assault in mind.

Match ups in this game thus far don't go the same way as they do in Brawl, and it's the reason why instead of going with out of 100, we decided to go by this plus/minus system up to 4, match ups that would probably be 80:20 in real "other fighting community terms" (i.e. MK vs everyone) would be +2 a lot of the time for how we ended up thinking about match ups; the reason for this was because in most match ups there was a clique the character could exist in that made them strong/viable (usually through camping) for as long as that could be maintained, the opposing character wouldn't necessarily have any means of getting around it, but the better character shouldn't really put themselves in that scenario in the first place (but eh, within a region, results could show anything to correspond to that). Marth played even with most characters at top level, but still by design had advantages the opponent's character didn't naturally have tools to deal with. Stuff like Marth being crippled on the ledge by Triple Jump/RCO Lag (and so many other characters were dealt with similar/worse ****) usually cost him stocks and could probably be put into an out of 100-games ratio but by design or by some notion of "player skill avoidance" we tended to ignore (or downplay) those negatives unless they were truly unavoidable (pre-100% we had a lot of different ledge options still, post 100% there's... two).

Avoid the grab and the match up is even doesn't seem to be a consideration we have to take in this game. There isn't much more to be concerned with other than face value common fighting, ability to revenge kill/mount a come back to some extent but it's minor. So for me to say disadvantage, there is no hocus pocus, other than perhaps stages (FD meta is kinda sickening and is still all I have to really go off).

We'll see how we go with others, but I think we should be keeping the above in mind.
I agree, though the latter half of the post becomes a little hard to read, and I'm not sure exactly why yet. Especially the last little segment before the ending note. Other than that, very well said.

Sonic is just generally hard for us to do much against. Although there are some things we can do to combat him, he's hard to approach and deal with. You really have to play it safe and defensively to plan on going anywhere with the match.
The others are more annoying than anything.
 

Shaya

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Match up discussion logic in Brawl very often came down to "yes you can chain grab us to death/for a gazillion percent", but "we can avoid the grab so the match up is even".

Maybe the even part is an exaggeration, but otherwise I'm not joking. If you sat down and did 100 matches, that chain grab is going to probably be deciding quite a few of them. But at top level in only a best of three or five tournament set, the best players of specific characters tended to be able to compete still. To the extent at which you did have to give some weight to "we can avoid X so we can win".

Just goes to show how many dumb things were in Brawl, gah hindsight is painful sometimes.
 
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g3cci

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I think zss's zair has more range than Martha fair tho, so idk if that's even an option
 

Moydow

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Okay, so bias but here are the match ups I think we'll be struggling with this game:

:4sonic:
This makes me feel somewhat better about having so much trouble with Sonic, in the "at least it's not just me" sort of way. Ness is somewhat of an irritant as well, though I do at least have some idea of how to get around him.
 

Xinc

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Definitely, Sonic is an issue. It's a bit difficult to get past him. Playing carefully is key.

I honestly believe the Marth vs Rosa matchup is difficult to wrap your mind until. Eliminating Luma or getting an unpunished d throw combo to rack up some damage appears to be your most viable options as Mar-Mar.
 

Shaya

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I think zss's zair has more range than Martha fair tho, so idk if that's even an option
Fair is always an option.
I'm not sure about the move outranging fair, it may do by a bit, and it's a pretty good move, but I haven't had either of the two ZSS I play with recently consistently outspace me with that.

Definitely, Sonic is an issue. It's a bit difficult to get past him. Playing carefully is key.

I honestly believe the Marth vs Rosa matchup is difficult to wrap your mind until. Eliminating Luma or getting an unpunished d throw combo to rack up some damage appears to be your most viable options as Mar-Mar.
Hint: Down Throw is useless.
Up Throw sends a shorter distance at 0, seems faster to act out of, and doesn't have any DI/vectoring messing with it. Up throw even at mid+ percent still seems more usable than down throw.

This makes me feel somewhat better about having so much trouble with Sonic, in the "at least it's not just me" sort of way. Ness is somewhat of an irritant as well, though I do at least have some idea of how to get around him.
He's just dumb, really dumb. I don't understand why he's now also been given apart of the best dodge class this game too (if not having the best run, top caste of walking and aerial mobility wasn't enough), having the best roll class, great tech get ups, great air dodge animation (that keeps him flattened even after his IASA) and a near lagless turn around in his dash... like he has it all. Basically melee-level mobility and commitment, with brawl level dodges, a taller character with buffed ranged to boot, the damage spread of FALCO (in this game, seriously, all of his **** is 10%+ damage). Tack on several moves with invincibility on them...
Sakurai was smoking crack when it came to balancing Sonic.
 
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InfinityCollision

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ZSS zair goes nearly as far as Samus' if not the same distance, plus it does 3% with an additional 3% hit at max distance. I dunno if I'd try to outspace Marth with it much, it's pretty heavy on commitment for low reward. It has uses but not necessarily in that situation. If anything she'd mostly rely on her slippery mobility and a pinch of nair when in the air against Marth.
 

Shaya

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RIP, I thought g3cci said nair, not zair; my mistake. Zair isn't really in my consciousness as a move from ZSS at all in the match up, it doesn't really reach any good length near the ground, hence it's just a long range poke in the air, but it has so much lag on it that you should really only be using it with a landing in mind.

Cancelling air dodges aside, yeah, don't fear that move.
NAIR on the other hand, I do, but my previous point still stands for nair #_#
 
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InfinityCollision

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lol different story then. ZSS nair outranges Marth fair/nair by... literally pixels, as best I can tell with terrible 3DS controls. Barring improbable shenanigans like catching your arm on the fair swing, I can't see anyone realistically outspacing us with it.

ZSS and Marth actually have near-identical range on several moves. Her ftilt matches Marth's dtilt for example, and her dtilt matches Marth's ftilt.
 

LoreLes

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I definitely have always had trouble with Sonic and Ness. Well I should say that Ness is definitely easier to deal with and not so much a hard match up but just very annoying.

Sonic just does everything.
 

kj22

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Thankfully I have a lot of sonic mu exp from brawl, so I do know what a nightmare he can be.

Fighting sonic comes down to reading your opponent more than covering options, which can be very difficult to do since he has so many mix-ups and great sonics often bait bait and bait some more. This mu in smash 4 is going to be much harder off the bat because of marth's landing lag...I'm pretty sure sonic's dash to shield is still amazing, he's heavier then us, kill power is buffed, etc.
Tbh the neutral game in brawl vs sonic was about even, but marth was able to apply ALOTT of damage/pressure once sonic was offstage. I'm not so sure he can still do so anymore. Basically a few key advantages that helped marth in the mu are gone now (little to no lag on landing, making aerials safe + edgeguarding, easier time killing)
You'll have to play a lot more defensive+smart+safe...
here is an example of one mu where I say knowing the mu is vital. in brawl I would argue it was even (esp due to sonic being able to run away with a lead, and marth kind of being able to do the same with a wall) in smash 4 we'll have to see. looking a lil in more sonics favor. just may go robin...sword character+good/KILLING projectiles...just yum
 

jmanup85

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Fair is always an option.
I'm not sure about the move outranging fair, it may do by a bit, and it's a pretty good move, but I haven't had either of the two ZSS I play with recently consistently outspace me with that.



Hint: Down Throw is useless.
Up Throw sends a shorter distance at 0, seems faster to act out of, and doesn't have any DI/vectoring messing with it. Up throw even at mid+ percent still seems more usable than down throw.



He's just dumb, really dumb. I don't understand why he's now also been given apart of the best dodge class this game too (if not having the best run, top caste of walking and aerial mobility wasn't enough), having the best roll class, great tech get ups, great air dodge animation (that keeps him flattened even after his IASA) and a near lagless turn around in his dash... like he has it all. Basically melee-level mobility and commitment, with brawl level dodges, a taller character with buffed ranged to boot, the damage spread of FALCO (in this game, seriously, all of his **** is 10%+ damage). Tack on several moves with invincibility on them...
Sakurai was smoking crack when it came to balancing Sonic.
What moves of his have invincibility besides the spring?
 

Adrik

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Arcfire can be shielded safely, jumped over, countered, dodged out of, etc.
Is it that easy? I just seems to me that each time I pick one of these options I just get wrecked
If I shield Robin grabs me
If I jump I usually get juggled
Mashing out or spacing out of it makes me lose stage control and by simply spaming 2 or 3 with the correctly mix ups Robin can corner Marth pretty easily
It´s probably me playing crappy though xD
 

LoreLes

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Is it that easy? I just seems to me that each time I pick one of these options I just get wrecked
If I shield Robin grabs me
If I jump I usually get juggled
Mashing out or spacing out of it makes me lose stage control and by simply spaming 2 or 3 with the correctly mix ups Robin can corner Marth pretty easily
It´s probably me playing crappy though xD
On average, it's pretty easy to predict when a Robin is going to throw out arcfire. When they do, that's your chance to just hop over and punish since they get stuck in a lag time. I think you still can be safe from blocking but I rather go for the punish option instead against arcfire.

I can safely say that I haven't had too much trouble with Robin to the point where I felt cornered at any point of the match.
 
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EternalFlame

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Does anyone here have advice for the Shiek matchup?

That one I can't seem to wrap my head around atm, due to her outspeeding most of my tactics (granted, I only fought one other Shiek locally, and he doesn't quite pressure me as hard as this one Shiek I fought). I bet I'll have similar issues with Sonic when I do face one, but I can just read the discussion above for that I'm assuming xD
 

Shaya

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Shield things up close and dolphin slash it. Except for multijab, don't think you can shoryuken through that :p
Otherwise use your sword~

Needles are a *****, but they're a ***** for everyone. Walk and try to power shield through them.

Know the distance of sheik's dash attack/dash grab, once you're within that range after working your ass through the minefield of needles, her immediate actions are either getting you a punish or you're getting hit/combo'd, and realistically that scenario should still be in our advantage.

Take your hits properly if you have no other ways to avoid them/punish them, it's much better than just getting the situation reset with ftilt or being grabbed.

We kill significantly better than her/earlier. You hope you can be getting her to around 80-90% before you hit 130%.

Dancing blade's transcended priority feels pretty essential for being able to space in a way that negates her comparable range/priority.
 

Emblem Lord

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Mess with her in training mode and you will see she has about half your range. She cannot out footsie you. She has to force an approach and capitalize or use her aggression and low recovery moves to pressure. In raw power Marth is stronger, while her follow-ups are tighter and have higher damage potential. Try not to commit to anything. That's really the key and being reactive in a way that punishes her hard for bad guesses.
 

Rich Homie Quan

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The only person I'm actually worried about is Lucario because the dude goes SSJ at the end of all of his stocks. It's kind of overwhelming at times.

I think every other matchup is in our favor, even, or a winnable uphill battle. The key is patience.

Just having a lot of trouble with Lucario.
 
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Kinslayer

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I can and have won plenty off battles vs rob, but I feel like I'm always working harder than the rob player to win. Is that a bad match up or am I just over thinking when I play him and making it harder on myself than it should be?
 
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LoreLes

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I can and haven on plenty off battles vs rob, but I feel like I'm always working harder than the rob player to win. Is that a bad match up or am I just over thinking when I play him and making it harder on myself than it should be?
I as well feel like ROB is a little harder to defeat this time around.
 

Adrik

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On average, it's pretty easy to predict when a Robin is going to throw out arcfire. When they do, that's your chance to just hop over and punish since they get stuck in a lag time. I think you still can be safe from blocking but I rather go for the punish option instead against arcfire.

I can safely say that I haven't had too much trouble with Robin to the point where I felt cornered at any point of the match.
By hopping over you mean just jumping throught it? It´s just I don´t get the verb, i´m not english native
I haven´t tried yet, but maybe airdodge>fair might work . If I try it out ill tell you asap

------
Concerning to Sheik I cant really say I´ve played strong sheik players yet, but I pretty much agree with Shaya. Well spaced dtilts kind of nulify her ground game, whereas fair and ftilt may also be a good way to counter her aerials
 
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