Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[Locuan]

Shaya pretty much covered what I was going to say regarding Marth's frame data. Additionally, you guys can use the Marth Frame Data Thread [WIP] if you want to compare his moves to MK's.

 

[warionumbah2]

Nothing of Marth's in this regard was nerfed (realistically; aerial mobility is less though)

So he was nerfed in that regard after all, also MK range on DC may be smaller but its good enough and definitely viable if well timed. Also drill rush can and will spike marth although he can use counter on it, town and city is a great stage for his DC recovery to shine and lets be honest because of this and multiple jumps marth can't pressure MK off stage as hard as MK pressures Marth.

Marth is scariest when he's playing footsies not when he's coming at MK with easily telegraphed aerials. Marth is also the easiest character to land dash attack into shuttle loop on for unknown reasons (mario bros requiring the MK user to pull back so the 2nd hit connects), MK DC allows him to escape traps, not frequently but the option is there and can work. Marth has poor landing options and ways to get out of early juggles(as the rest of the swordsmans). MK has lost and gained alot of things from brawl but his MU against marth remains in his favor not sure about the ratio in brawl not like it matters.

Glad you're discussing about MK since not many people outisde the MK boards know what they're on about. When it comes to sm4sh MK.

 

[Shaya]

Dimension Cape is vulnerable before grabbing the ledge, has a lot of start up; I know exactly how far you have to be to be able to use that move and there's nothing stopping me setting a pit stop before it. Drill Rush loses to every attack we throw out and relying on stage spiking outside of the guaranteed multihit (fair/bair)/footstool techs doesn't really change the match up.
Marth pressuring MK off stage is something you guys are going to have to live with. It's a reality that hasn't changed between games (less aerial mobility sure, but longer range on every single one of those aerials too). Don't deny it because we're in an early stages where experience is mostly with low to mid level game play (especially on Marth's part; who's honestly bothering to do better with him?).

If Marth is unsuccessful but plays his off stage appropriately, it's still feasible he takes the edge guarding position in which you guys probably know is a little awkward.

I would still say the match up is probably leaning MK advantage, but you guys sure know how to make something sound like a hard counter and then sign it off with "55:45" ~_~

Untippered aerials are pretty good. Dancing Blade legit combos out of it for a while, a second untippered fair (which can still combo) or usually a tippered fair is the general second hit. You can get up airs too depending on a few things (often necessary to have your mid air jump). Untippered moves don't necessarily mean short ranged though, due to the power of ARCING hitboxes + larger range than Brawl and the unfortunate less range on MK doesn't mean nairing out of it is the smart idea; as it probably won't hit.

And I play a lot of MK and like understanding/knowing most character's options in general. I sell MK hype at half price because people are often way too keen on various rhetoric notions.

 

[Rewrite]

Metaknight could go low, but ive never had a problem using d cape tbh. Also, Metaknights forward b offers solid horizontal recovery. If you're Metaknight and get defeated off stage, you did something very wrong.

If you're going to keep throwing fairs out, MK can easily just run in, shield, dash grab. Marth should stay on the ground.

Im curious, what can untippered fairs follow into, since I'd think they can be punished with nair or dair?

Non-tippered f-air can true combo into another f-air (sometimes tippered) as well as Marth's damaging up-specials. I made posts about both of them.

I almost wrote out a huge lengthy essay here like I did for vs. Palutena, but the works of the other essay writers do it more than enough justice. I'm going to disagree with @ warionumbah2 though. Marth can be punished, but it's not as easy as people think. I also feel Meta knights jumps don't actually mean a lot on stage because he has to come down eventually and being below his opponent is where Marth excels.

Off-stage is in Meta Knight's favour, but I feel it has more to do with how safe MK is over how truly powerful he is. Anything Marth throws out can be air-dodged then punished unless intense shenanigans get pulled. Marth still has mad out-spacing and can stuff most of MK's attacks, even his neutral and side specials. The start-up on both of them is pretty long. Shuttle Loop is a pain though.

I honestly think it's at least a 60 - 40 match-up in Marth's favour, maybe higher. On-stage Marth is much more dominating for the reasons other's have expressed above and can play footsies against Meta Knight no problem. Even off-stage MK never scared me. I take a lot of pride in my off-stage game too.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Rewrite I disagree with you as well, 60:40 due to footsie alone baffles me is their any other reasoning behind that ratio? Just found S2H vs Tearbear match after searching through my youtube history and as predicted the match were mostly in neutral and they both looked even in that aspect.

Last game was the battle of up throws and MK lost because he wasn't under the top platform.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_3vLoHg1FM

So Marth doesn't completely decimate him on stage especially to the point where it goes 60:40 in his favor, Marth is hard to punish but so is MK its very hard to mess MK up. What i noticed in those games is that Marth is helpless when MK gets in his face since Dtilt comes out so fast, the bit that really got me is 'maybe even more' are you saying that Marth is one of MK worst MU?

 

[Rewrite]

@ Rewrite I disagree with you as well, 60:40 due to footsie alone baffles me is their any other reasoning behind that ratio? Just found S2H vs Tearbear match after searching through my youtube history and as predicted the match were mostly in neutral and they both looked even in that aspect.

Last game was the battle of up throws and MK lost because he wasn't under the top platform.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_3vLoHg1FM

So Marth doesn't completely decimate him on stage especially to the point where it goes 60:40 in his favor, Marth is hard to punish but so is MK its very hard to mess MK up. What i noticed in those games is that Marth is helpless when MK gets in his face since Dtilt comes out so fast, the bit that really got me is 'maybe even more' are you saying that Marth is one of MK worst MU?

I didn't say it was footsies alone. I said it was a combination of better footsies AND previous points made by other people advocating for Marth.

I also fail to see how saying the MU could POSSIBLY be a bit more in Marth's favour automatically means I'm claiming it's one of Meta Knight's worst MU"s. That must be one hell of a character if anything less than a 40 - 60 MU for him qualifies as his worst one.

Also, I don't take one tournament set as the basis for an entire match-up. The MK lost for more reasons than simply not being under the top platform.

I feel the advantage for Marth comes from the characters at their core. Marth applies steady pressure and use his immense range to wear down his opponent over time much like how a river erodes away a stone. Meta Knight closes in, deals heavy combo damage then gets out and repeats the process. The problem is Meta Knight has a very difficult time getting in.

In the video you linked there are very long periods of time in the match where MK has a lot of difficulty and struggles to connect to even a hit. The longest drought was in the final match at the beginning where MK took almost 75% applying barely any damage at all to Marth. Even then in that same match, almost every time Meta Knight scores a combo is when the Marth makes really bad decisions and throws out raw up-smashes and other really unsafe moves ( It looked like he was starting to get greedy for kills with his advantage).

No one's saying Meta Knight has a really bad match-up, but I'd say the ball's in Marth's court here.

 

[warionumbah2]

I didn't say it was footsies alone. I said it was a combination of better footsies AND previous points made by other people advocating for Marth.

Even after re reading everyones posts relating to the on stage game i still find it hard to believe that on stage alone makes the MU tip into Marths favor by 10 points. MK has the better punish game and stronger advantage state against Marth who has a poor disadvantage state his ground game is liner.

I also fail to see how saying the MU could POSSIBLY be a bit more in Marth's favour automatically means I'm claiming it's one of Meta Knight's worst MU"s. That must be one hell of a character if anything less than a 40 - 60 MU for him qualifies as his worst one.

Well the fact that you said 60:40 then said it maybe more in his favor lead to believe that you're claiming its MK worse MU. MK struggles against Sonic and ZSS who have a high possibility to have over 60:40 mainly due to their better mobility in every aspect and strong disadvantage state which is equally as good as their advantage states.

Of course you won't see how i came to that conclusion as you don't look at it from my P.O.V.

Also, I don't take one tournament set as the basis for an entire match-up. The MK lost for more reasons than simply not being under the top platform.

I'm not basing the whole MU off one match but I'm giving an example, video evidence, of the footsie game not being as heavily in Marths favor as you seem to think. Video evidence is better than none and you expect me to fish for more matches between the two? Marth has little representation as well as MK(although i know more players that use him compared to Marth).

I'm well aware that there's more things that lead to MK's loss but i pointed out that one part since it was a clutch throw war and thought that was worthy of pointing out.

I feel the advantage for Marth comes from the characters at their core. Marth applies steady pressure and use his immense range to wear down his opponent over time much like how a river erodes away a stone. Meta Knight closes in, deals heavy combo damage then gets out and repeats the process. The problem is Meta Knight has a very difficult time getting in.

MK doesn't have a hard time getting in because he's got good ground mobility and a Falcon like dash grab along with a ZSS like dash attack that doesn't stop on shield, characters like Kirby have difficulty getting in on Marth because he's so slow mixed with his poor range.

In the video you linked there are very long periods of time in the match where MK has a lot of difficulty and struggles to connect to even a hit. The longest drought was in the final match at the beginning where MK took almost 75% applying barely any damage at all to Marth. Even then in that same match, almost every time Meta Knight scores a combo is when the Marth makes really bad decisions and throws out raw up-smashes and other really unsafe moves ( It looked like he was starting to get greedy for kills with his advantage).

That's a prime example of a MK going aggro for no reason, both had equal stocks and alot of time n the clock he went in and got punished after punish but even so he bought it back. Mk is meant to be a bait and punish character, he baited Marth and punished him and made him do bad decisions. One thing i found odd was the lack of Nado near the ledge to cover get up attacks,normal get up etc.

No one's saying Meta Knight has a really bad match-up, but I'd say the ball's in Marth's court here.

60:40 is a bad MU imo , then you said it might be more which makes it even worse. Closest i got from another member is that Marth wins 55:45 but he only spoke about MK's specials such as Drill Rush being used on stage.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Dimension Cape is vulnerable before grabbing the ledge, has a lot of start up; I know exactly how far you have to be to be able to use that move and there's nothing stopping me setting a pit stop before it. Drill Rush loses to every attack we throw out and relying on stage spiking outside of the guaranteed multihit (fair/bair)/footstool techs doesn't really change the match up.
Marth pressuring MK off stage is something you guys are going to have to live with. It's a reality that hasn't changed between games (less aerial mobility sure, but longer range on every single one of those aerials too). Don't deny it because we're in an early stages where experience is mostly with low to mid level game play (especially on Marth's part; who's honestly bothering to do better with him?).

This is news to me, I've only played Brawl like 3 times ever since 2008 so I am completely unfamiliar with it and any remnants of its meta game in Smash 4. If MK could go for a d-cape but you're close enough to intercept it, why wouldn't he use shuttle loop instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_3vLoHg1FM&t=11m40s

This is a great example of how you can apply immense pressure on Meta Knight even if your character can't whack him off-stage without getting air dodged and reversal'd with a drill/fair spike or something. I felt like Marth could've taken a stock or reset the game to off-stage in his court again if he hadn't charged the F-Smash.

I feel like S2H missed a lot of opportunities off the stage to land a n-air on the Up B or b-air or something. Does Dolphin Slash have invincible frames in its ascent/beat n-air without trading at all if MK positions himself on his body? Dolphin Slash does have the same little sword bleeding through the floor of the stage just like Shuttle Loop, so that's a nice poke that both characters have in their Up Bs.

Also, anyone down for some wi-fi hero games? This is matchup I'd like to learn more with good Marth players. I live in Los Angeles, CA.

 

[Shaya]

At top level towards the end of Brawl, MK would only recover high.
Marth trapped MK on the ledge in a way that equated to his stocks; so he tended not to go low (watch MikeNeko vs any Japanese MK and count the times the MK would go for the ledge, and how many times MK survived after making that decision it's legitimately a 0% survival rate if MK is 100% or higher).
His main means of getting back were glide stalling and then using Tornado once Marth committed.
Marth could counter/dolphin slash trade with it (think how you traded up-b's with Snake's cypher).

Fair/bair/nair would beat MK's aerials generally (MK's dair was kinda awkward though) and could trade + beat Shuttle Loop too.

With Tornado no longer being as much of a factor, dimension cape being shorter + not having extending properties, and you can't just shuttle loop glide, etc etc.

Marth's dolphin slash had invincibility 1-5 in Brawl. In the air it's 1-4 in Smash 4 (and 4-6 on the ground).
It's easier to trade with than in Brawl I'd say, at least favourably because of multi hit aerials spiking. But it generally comes down to Marth not angling his dolphin slash properly, as you do get quite a great deal of leverage (close to 60ish degrees) and as the sword is up + outwards (and it's a sword) you should be able to hit most things without trading. If you come up directly vertically below something, you'll die is the general rule of thumb.

 

[Katakiri]

Just popping in to say what I believe some of the key points for the Marth:MK MU are:

Marth struggles to approach MK...kinda. Marth's FH F-Air is vulnerable for over 20 frames before he lands (I could be wrong but I counted about 20 frames with some variation due to timing.) More than enough time for MK to drop shield if hit and Dash Attack (hits on frame 7-11). Getting hit by Dash Attack is a free 20+% for MK since that's also his best combo-starter, even eclipsing his throws from Dash Grab imo. The "kinda" comes from Marth's empty hop. MK can't drop shield into Dash Attack unless his shield is hit due to how shield stun works in this game. If Marth scares MK into shielding, he gets in since MK's stuck in shield+shield lag for 18 frames. MK can grab or roll on reaction though so MKs should always keep the empty hop in mind and look for it.

On the MK side of approaching, MK's going for Dash Attack and Dash Grab on reaction or read like always. MK should always play outside of Marth's sword range on the ground since Dash Attack out-reaches his sword by a lot and MK has the advantage against a Marth approach. MK's D-Tilt is only useful if Marth is in MK's face which shouldn't happen often but if it does, MK's frame 3 D-Tilt will outpace Marth's frame 7 Grab and D-Tilt in a panic.

@ Rewrite Footsies in neutral only gets Marth so far as does his reach because MK has two options that can be initiated farther than the reach of Marth's sword: Dash Attack and Dash Grab. I cannot stress enough how good MK's Dash Attack is in this game. It not only pulls the rug from underneath MK's opponent's feet, gaining MK momentum & juggle situations, but it sets them up for actual combos until over 80%. Dash Grab does the same thing. People can harp on lack of range and spacing all you want, MK isn't trying to hit you with F-Tilt or F-Air, he's looking to land Dash Attack/Dash Grab to net 20% to upwards of over 40% on one combo. Dash Attack is difficult to punish because it crosses-up on shield, comes out frame 7 and lingers while moving for 4 frames, has more reach than you'd expect due to MK's foot stretching, and can again be initiated farther than Marth's sword can reach. It is what validates MK in the neutral in all his MUs. I'm not disregarding Marth's options in neutral being better than MK's overall but you MUST respect Dash Attack or you will lose horribly no matter how good your spacing is.

Momentum is a huge factor in this MU as both characters are good at juggling the other when they have stage control. Marth just has to be weary of MK's ability to use Dimensional Cape as a movement option in the air to avoid Marth, especially with platforms. Just know that when MK lands an Up-Air, an Up-B is coming somewhere after it (even if it's 4 Up-Airs later.) DI the Up-B preemptively, the 2nd hit of Up-B is not guaranteed if you DI properly.

Off-stage is the place I think this MU shifts from being even into MK's favor (it gets brought back to even later.) MK's off-stage game is pretty much the same as it's ever been; if MK gets the read on your F-Air, air dodge, or lack thereof, that's your stock gone. In this MU, I think it's beneficial for MK to recover with cape more than anything else as Cape is very difficult to deal with where Up-B can be punished since MK doesn't snap until the end of the end of the first hit, which means Marth can F-Smash him out of it before he snaps to ledge. Recovering high against Marth just results in a juggle situation again. MK does have the option to jump off ledge and jump onto stage with a D-Tilt, Grab, or Shield as his short mid-air jump puts him pretty level with the floor; much faster than his standard get-up from ledge. Ledge Jump is a pretty decent option as well since MK can D-Air on the way up.

@ Shaya Smash 4 Cape gets more horizontal distance than Brawl's. I'm looking at both right now. Brawl's ends faster but Smash 4's travels farther. Also Dimensional Cape is vulnerable for 2 frames like every other ledge snap. It's invincible until those two frames. DC in general is invincible until MK comes to a complete stop and flourishes his cape after re-appearing (long after he re-appears.) The only time MK's getting hit while invisible is if MK opts to use the Cape Slash. Cape's not as punishable as you think, especially for Marth. MK still shouldn't be throwing it out often unless we're recovering to the ledge or avoiding a juggle.

Getting the KO is where Marth gets this MU back to even. MK's Up-B OoS, B-Air, Up-Smash, & D-Smash won't KO Marth until after 120% without rage. Getting the tipper KO early is as good as gimping is for MK and where Marth can win this MU. However, beware that MK's F-Smash will KO as early as 90% w/o rage but has a sweetspot at the center/hilt of the blade that KOs Marth at as low as 75%. Also if MK has rage, Marth is in danger. Marth needs to off MK quickly with a tipper because all those moves I listed that KO at 120% are very legitimate KO moves you need to watch out for.

Overall I think this is a 50:50 MU but it could go very slightly in MK's favor since Marth needs a tipper to keep MK's KO moves from shining with rage as much as his gimping tools already do.
I swear I only meant for this post to be like 3 paragraphs long.

 

[Rewrite]

@ Katakiri

Again, I didn't say footsies alone. I said footsies and all of the other advantages listed by other players in favour of Marth (which is a lot). I also think the off-stage game is a bit closer than people claim. I've already gone into why I think that, but in the Tearbbear vs. SH2 set, Tearbear gets some good hits off-stage.

Meta Knight does have a good dash with plenty of options out of it, but a lot of those options Marth can stuff with a good f-tilt. I don't feel it's quite as good as lot of people make it out to be. I find it;s quite similar to how Captain Falcon will approach Marth, using his speed to try to bait and punish Marth. Despite all of his speed Marth can still wall Captain Falcon pretty hard and I feel people underestimate just how good he can be at it.

I also find Marth doesn't have a lot of difficulty approaching MK, in fact he does most of the approaching for him. In the Tearbear vs. SH2 set I've already stated that SH2 had a lot of difficulty approaching tearbear's Marth and only really got in hard when Tearbear got greedy using a lot of unsafe moves. Again, he kept SH2 out dealing over 70% to him for a good while.

Also Marth can kill at 30% and upwards. MK's f-smash isn't really that amazing in comparison especially since the hit-box on it is in front of him only a little faster than Marth's and has half the range.

It's a pretty even match-up as I've already admitted, but I feel marth has the advantage. I no longer think it's over 60 - 40, but it's definitely at least 55 - 45 in his favour.

 

[Darklink401]

So, just wonderin, why is the Marth vs Diddy Kong MU so bad? x-x

It would seem, at least on paper, that Marth's sword spacing and stuff would be troublesome for Diddy Kong, no?

 

[Charls]

Imo he has harder matchups against the other top characters. Diddy is Diddy, so we all know how hard he hits and how fast he is. Marth himself struggles in the matchup but not to a point where it is unwinnable. Having the Falchion is a huge, huge help when for example, one is getting rid of bananas. Monkey Flip can be swatted away with a simple Jab, Tilt, or even an averagely spaced aerial. We can also contest Diddy's stupid aerials well unlike many other characters. When he fishes for grabs he needs to be aware of our % as Upthrow can kill. However, once he's in advantage we have a considerably hard time reseting to neutral, and catching up in % can be a drag too if the Diddy plays lame; he can be much more careless than Marth. Myself, I'd rather play against a good Diddy than a good ZSS or Sonic though - those two matchups are particularly slanted towards their favor.

---------------

On the Meta Knight matchup, I'm going to share the sentiments that have been expressed here and say an even matchup, but very close to a 55:45 on Meta Knight's favor. This is basically the Brawl matchup but less intricate as an effect of MK's and Marth's general adjustment [nerfs]. MK's wonky hitboxes are no longer a problem, but his edgeguarding, ability to return onstage while avoiding gimps, and general kill potential remains. I don't exactly agree with Marth having a superior ground game to the point it invalidates Meta Knight's, but Dash Grab and Dash Attack are the only two things we really need to keep an eye out and constantly play around of - this doesn't exactly mean it's easy either. For the rest of his kit, the Falchion usually does the job for us. If he gets in, we pray to the DI gods we don't die. Otherwise, the matchup boils down purely to player skill.

 

[Link24a]

So as you can see, while Jiggs has her own advantages, Marth can keep her out due to the fact that he's one of the three characters with better aerials than Jiggs, and if you shut out Jiggs aerials, you've shut out Jiggs, basically. FAir is key here, use it intelligently, and DON'T just throw out a laggier attack like FSmash if you think the Jiggs is approaching, unless you're VERY confident. Jiggs thrives on weaving in and out, baiting the opponent into an attack that gives her the opportunity to punish with an aerial or rest for the KO. Jiggs is good at two things; zoning and punishing, two things you Marth mains are very familiar with, just with more range and less mobility. Beat her at her own game, play patiently, and stay rigid on playing it safe. Risky won't pay off against experienced Jigglypuff mains, and will generally get you killed.

i think youre overestimating the quality of marth's aerials... yeah they outrange her but all are pretty laggy exceptfor Uair and Nair, and mainly they all do pretty terrible damage

 

[Zethoro]

i think youre overestimating the quality of marth's aerials... yeah they outrange her but all are pretty laggy exceptfor Uair and Nair, and mainly they all do pretty terrible damage

I'd hardly say they do terrible damage (weakest possible amount is 7%, which isn't awful), nor would I say they're laggy. Are they fastest aerials in the world? No, but neither are Jiggs' aerials, and unlike Jiggs Marth's entire aerial toolkit is great. Even without FAir, Marth outreaches Jiggs in pretty much every move, so I still give it the same score. If Jiggs tries to challenge Marth's air presence she will lose, and if she tries to challenge his ground game she'll DEFINITELY lose. The only case where Jiggs aerials are far superior is offstage, as they're very good for pressure and Marth can have trouble recovering if he throws out an aerial to challenge Jiggs.

The only things Jiggs wins in this MU are her punish game and edgeguarding. Marth wins in neutral and beats Jiggs at her own game; zoning.

 

[Link24a]

What wait wait... Are we supposed to be discussing the Meta Knight matchup now?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

What wait wait... Are we supposed to be discussing the Meta Knight matchup now?

lol yeah, you didn't see the title or the recent posts until now? I guess you can still talk about it, but don't expect everyone to continue the discussion.

 

[Link24a]

(disregard)

lol yeah, you didn't see the title or the recent posts until now? I guess you can still talk about it, but don't expect everyone to continue the discussion.

I think we've talked enough about jigglypuff.
Meta Knight seems like a good idea

OK... I don't know much about meta Knight in this game... But he's still fast(er than marth) and I think he's got slightly less range than Marth. Can someone confirm that?

Anyways, both are kinda "sad" characters. Both being comparatively destroyed from brawl (Meta Knight is probably better overall though imo)

Preliminary matchup opinion: 5:5

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I think we've talked enough about jigglypuff.
Meta Knight seems like a good idea

OK... I don't know much about meta Knight in this game... But he's still fast and I think he's got slightly less range than Marth. Can someone confirm that?

I barely ever face Metaknight, but my friend recently picked him up and I hope to learn more about the MU from him. You don't HAVE to discuss this MU if you don't want to. I have only participated in maybe 2-3 of the MU discussions since I did not really know much about most of the ones we have done so far. For the ones I did not participate in I just looked at what people were saying about the MU.

 

[Link24a]

I barely ever face Metaknight, but my friend recently picked him up and I hope to learn more about the MU from him.

While I discourage the usage of For Glory to determine matchups and tier lists (just look at EventHubs) one can understand some of the options that character has and get a general idea of the character from playing against said character in For Glory. I've played ~1700 matches in For Glory and I can say Meta Knight nor Marth have a significant advantage over the other. That I'm 100% sure of. It's gonna be at MOST 5.5 or 6 one way or the other

 

[Random4811]

Imo he has harder matchups against the other top characters. Diddy is Diddy, so we all know how hard he hits and how fast he is. Marth himself struggles in the matchup but not to a point where it is unwinnable. Having the Falchion is a huge, huge help when for example, one is getting rid of bananas. Monkey Flip can be swatted away with a simple Jab, Tilt, or even an averagely spaced aerial. We can also contest Diddy's stupid aerials well unlike many other characters. When he fishes for grabs he needs to be aware of our % as Upthrow can kill. However, once he's in advantage we have a considerably hard time reseting to neutral, and catching up in % can be a drag too if the Diddy plays lame; he can be much more careless than Marth. Myself, I'd rather play against a good Diddy than a good ZSS or Sonic though - those two matchups are particularly slanted towards their favor.

---------------

On the Meta Knight matchup, I'm going to share the sentiments that have been expressed here and say an even matchup, but very close to a 55:45 on Meta Knight's favor. This is basically the Brawl matchup but less intricate as an effect of MK's and Marth's general adjustment [nerfs]. MK's wonky hitboxes are no longer a problem, but his edgeguarding, ability to return onstage while avoiding gimps, and general kill potential remains. I don't exactly agree with Marth having a superior ground game to the point it invalidates Meta Knight's, but Dash Grab and Dash Attack are the only two things we really need to keep an eye out and constantly play around of - this doesn't exactly mean it's easy either. For the rest of his kit, the Falchion usually does the job for us. If he gets in, we pray to the DI gods we don't die. Otherwise, the matchup boils down purely to player skill.

IMO we need to re-discuss the Diddy MU. I think its not nearly as bad as we made it out to be looking into it again. Hell, I even feel confident against Diddy. He can't challenge us off stage at all. Diddy can't contest our Uair from above, and our frame traps are pretty good in the MU. Diddy's hoo hah can easily be DI'd out of to the point that its not even really scary. Monkey flip is super punishable unless Diddy gets a good read. He basically needs to recover at or just below the ledge. If he recovers high, its a free punish. Monkey flip to the ledge is hard to punish, but his jetpack is a free gimp to any Marth that sees his recovery coming. We out space Diddy and can lock him out of our guard with well placed fairs, nairs and bairs. Dthrow -> bair works particularly well against Diddy because of his size & weight imo.


---

I can see where people are coming from saying that MK v Marth is even-ish. I'd say the MU is slanted slightly in MK's favor.
We out range MK, but he has a number of combos he can start as soon as he gets in with Dash attack. Playing off stage can be tricky, as his attacks are generally pretty quick. If he recovers high, easy punish. If he recovers low, you can try to stage spike him or fsmash him, but you'll likely miss. Best bet is to let him take ledge and quickly ledge-trump him, and then try to get him with a tipped bair. This /should/ gimp MK at around ~70-90% (I'm not sure exactly where in that range) and start killing sometime after that. DI can save us from his uair -> up b combo pretty well. As for his other combos, im sure there is a way to DI and save yourself from them at some point, but I don't know how because I am actually unfamiliar with what other combos he has.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Marth players, the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is now analyzing Marth. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Marth match-up, Marth's discussion period will last until the end of 3/12.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I can't really say much about the Marth vs Sheik MU, but IMO it is not that bad. I probably have no idea what I am talking about, but I usually win when I use Marth against Sheik.

 

[Locuan]

@ Random4811 we will come back to every match-up we have discussed. On another note, thanks everyone for the input on the MK match-up. I learned a lot myself and it was very informative. This discussion period we will focus on the Wario match-up. Let's get started!

 

[Random4811]

Wario is a fun one. I don't know off the top of my head what I'd rate it, but I think its tilted in Marth's direction. He's easy to outspace, but he can also get into your guard easy if you arent being careful. I'd say its kind of evenish. I'll come back with a little more discussion at a later time, because I actually know a few Wario mains that I can play for fresh exp

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Wario secondary talking. I'm pretty sure it's a solid matchup for Marth considering how Wario is almost all close range. Based on the Marth's I've faced, Wario has a hard time getting in close due to Marth outranging Wario on the ground and somewhat in the air. This leads to me using the bike most of the match, as it's good for spacing, but I believe Marth can hit him off the bike with some moves.

Long story short, it's not fun facing a good Marth player

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

The bike mind games and being unable to use counter to destroy the bike is one advantage I can think of Wario having. Aside from that I think Marth does pretty well against Wario since he outranges all of his attacks with pretty much every attack he has. He will beat Wario in both the ground and air, but his bike being used to recover can give me some trouble with edgegaurding him. I say 60-40 in Marth's favor.

 

[Magik0722]

I've never had a hard time playing against Marth's with Wario. I feel as though its in Wario's favor. I've always found it easy to counter aerial approaches with Wario's maneuverability and his fair, I just always seem to trade well / stuff cleanly against Marth. Marth has a hard time edge-guarding Wario with his highly vertical recovery thanks to the bike. Bite mix-ups are especially potent I think in this match-up due to Marth's nature of wanting to act OOS and using counter.

 

[C4-]

As a wario player I would actually say its slightly in marths favor, it all really depends on just how well the marth can space. If you can space your aerials very well your already at a huge advantage in the matchup up, if your not spacing well youll get punished just like any other matchup. Wario has tiny hit boxes with no priority so the matchup really just comes down to understand how warios bite/bike work aswell as how he can move in and out in the air. Depending on the warios biking habits you may be able to get some great punishes while he is trying to recover if you are able to read the bike path he is going to be taking. Against experienced warios its not very safe to stand underneath him with shield unless your planning on throwing an attack out because he most likely will bite you. don't be afraid to utilize warios bike as a projectile for edge guarding if the situation allows it ( or just try to keep wario from destroying it so he is without bike recovery for a while). Ledge trumping wario after his uses his bike will put him in a perfect position for ledge regrab punish. Warios F-throw can kill so keep that in mind at higher percent's.

- IMO 55:45 marths favor, if your not into the 5's then id just say 50:50

 

[Random4811]

I've never had a hard time playing against Marth's with Wario. I feel as though its in Wario's favor. I've always found it easy to counter aerial approaches with Wario's maneuverability and his fair, I just always seem to trade well / stuff cleanly against Marth. Marth has a hard time edge-guarding Wario with his highly vertical recovery thanks to the bike. Bite mix-ups are especially potent I think in this match-up due to Marth's nature of wanting to act OOS and using counter.

I'd have to disagree with this. Bike recovery is generally pretty gimpable if Marth is anywhere near the ledge, and your Up B is very linear and (as far as I know) lacking of super armor frames. This means it is possible to stage spike on a read.
Bite is definitely good for Wario in this MU, but approaching Marth is where Wario is going to have trouble. Marth has the better footsies and can keep Wario out of his face. He easily outspaces Wario in the air with FH retreating fair/bair, and nair can be used to catch his approaches. Wario is juggle-able, so this means Marth can get a decent number of percent on him with good uair reads, and also create frame traps by forcing airdodges into landing.

 

[Ulevo]

Yo. I'm punking your table in the opening for Lucario boards.

k thx bai

 

[Locuan]

It's Mario time! Let's get started everyone!

 

[Thinktron]

It's Mario time! Let's get started everyone!

I would personally give this to Marth but not by a huge amount, Mario's short range gives Marth a small advantage on the ground and the buffs to counter + shield breaker only make it harder for Mario to get up close, not to mention his far superior off ledge game and recovery, also due to Mario's light weight Marth gains a kill move with his up throw. Not to mention Marth's prowess when in rage. the last thing i see in his favor is the speed of dolphin slash which makes F.L.U.D.D near useless.

When it comes to Mario his combo ability is very useful for someone like Marth especially with his up tilt combo but in my eyes its not good enough to compromise for my already stated reasons to why he overall wins.

I'd say overall 60-40

 

[HeroMystic]

Every time I fought a Marth, it has always felt more even than anything. I'll need to be convinced that it's in Marth's advantage, because Marth can't wall Mario out 100% of the time which means Mario remaining patient and perfect shielding Marth's spacing tools allows Mario to capitalize on opportunities. The only problematic part of this MU for Mario is Marth can disrespect Mario thanks to counter, and he can capitalize Mario off stage very well. Otherwise I feel Mario making calculated approaches and not taking any risks while in the advantaged states equalizes Marth's range advantage.

This is pretty much the same how it was in Brawl except the frame data doesn't allow it to be the curbstomp it was before.

 

[Xeze]

Marth has the edge in this MU, thanks to his superior range. If he spaces correctly, Mario has trouble getting in to get his combos started. Counter can be used to break out of Mario's u-tilt or u-air strings but that can be baited and punished. Also, as said before, Mario's frame data in this game allows him to keep up.
Offstage, Marth also has the advantage due to his superior edgeguard game. But Mario also has the tools to edgeguard Marth: b-air, n-air, FLUDD and a well-timed Cape.

Overall I'd say 55:45 in Marth's favor.

 

[OmegaSorin]

As a Marth/Luci Main, who plays against Mario (HeroMystic) quite a lot, I get a lot of experience with Marth vs Mario.

Frankly speaking, Mario is great all around, but the only thing really keeping me away from beating Mario is my own player skill. While Marth can't block Mario out consistently, Marth definitely has the means to defeat Mario if played to the fullest of his abilities.

Naturally this all changes when player skill is incorporated into the fact, but if we go based on purely character alone...

That being said, there are plenty of advantages Marth has over Mario, the biggest one being range. Marth's strength comes from positioning and spacing. That is actually one of Mario's weaknesses, spacing. Mario is for the most part a close up brawler. While he has the capability of fighting at long range, it limits his ability to fight effectively. While Marth has the advantage due to his sword range, and the fact that if spaced correctly his damage is increased astronomically.

However, should Mario get inside, and past that range, it would immediately take away most, if not all advantages that Marth would have involving spacing. When it comes to a close brawl, Mario would beat Marth immensely. Of course, any good Marth player wouldn't allow that to happen and would keep their spacing up.

The biggest thing that Marth has against Mario has to be his SH Game, out of all the characters I have seen, Marth is second in the ability to make the best use of Short Hopping (With Luigi coming in first). Using the range of his sword and the SH's he is capable of dealing good amounts of damage while keeping that spacing going and moving forward as well to control where the Mario player will most likely go, or deal more damage. While Mario has ways to counter this, most players would find it difficult to work against the SH Game that Marth actually has.

Finally, Edge Guarding. I'd say Mario and Marth are actually rather equal in this. Marth can pretty much counter hog the edge if the opponent is stupid enough to consistently keep attacking when they get up on the edge, and Marth (like Mario) has a very deadly Meteor Smash in his D-Air, and major striking power with his F-Air and B-Air. The F-Air is where Marth overtakes Mario though, as the F-Air on Mario is his Meteor rather than a 'push' attack so to speak, while Marth's D-Air is his Meteor, and his F-Air is his 'push attack'. This would be even if Mario's D-Air wasn't his Mario Tornado, but rather his Meteor while his F-Air was a push attack, but the attack is Mario Tornado, which is not very useful off the field and actually pretty dangerous to attempt to do where as Marth's isn't as dangerous (though can still be dangerous if you don't have strong recover game)

I'm not that good at analyzing yet, but this is just my opinion.

I'd have to give this a 60-40 Marth's Favor.

 

[Ffamran]

Sharp like an edge of a samurai sword
The mental blade cut through flesh and bone.

Greetings, oh, Hero Kings and Heroine Queens, the Falco boards started their Marth matchup discussion and would appreciate any wise words from the Hero King, Marth. Link to thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-18-marth-ace-king.395732/.

Also, you could potentially get a new recruit.

And here's a link to Battlecry by Nujabes.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this discussion is ongoing, so drop in whenever.

 

[Artur Bento Botarelli]

Hey Guys, I am a new member, how are you all doing? I know this is not on schedule yet, but do you have any tips to deal with Sonic? He keeps spanning down B and side B and I am having trouble to punish accordingly.

 

[Random4811]

Hey Guys, I am a new member, how are you all doing? I know this is not on schedule yet, but do you have any tips to deal with Sonic? He keeps spanning down B and side B and I am having trouble to punish accordingly.

Shield when he approaches, because this blocks him out once you've got him in an unfavorable position due to shieldstun, jump (while still holding shield button mind you, you dont want to drop your shield before you jump) and then immediately input an aerial or special that will reach him. Its the easiest way to punish Sonic.


I dont have too much to say about the MU, cause IM really bad at it. I think y'all are crazy, this feels like a bad Mu to me. Mario can come and go as he pleases and doesnt have to mind Marth's spacing too much. He has a free get in option with fireballs, a free edgeguard with fludd and cape, and strong af punishes. Not to mention he's got great combo game.

 

[cerealkiller]

Shield when he approaches, because this blocks him out once you've got him in an unfavorable position due to shieldstun, jump (while still holding shield button mind you, you dont want to drop your shield before you jump) and then immediately input an aerial or special that will reach him. Its the easiest way to punish Sonic.

Shielding is an option but it doesn't put Sonic in a bad/unfavorable position. The spin will slow down but still go through, usually with enough speed to even come back again.

As Sonic I usually have an easy time against Marths but I also rarely come across a good one. As Marth I never see any Sonics so I have no experience-based advice...
Still I would try the following:
(I'd have to test this because I don't know the damages)
- You could try DownTilt to clash and stop the spins.
- Can he Counter it?
- Marth has a good hopping game so you can play with that and try to land a well timed aerial.