Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[WispBae]

Huh? People are doing DH MUs? He only has like 6 players though.

6?! WE LOST A DOGGY SOMEWHERE. DAMMIT!

@Spirst pretty much nailed the doggy MU with Lady Boy, though it is worth taking into account Marth's control with the can.

With his sword not being part of his hurtbox, Marth can safely (but carefull) deal with Cans and Clay Pigeons. A jab destroys Clay and makes the can go the opposite direction. The Gunmen would be the safest bet for opening for doggy, though Marth could knock em down (granted he can close the distance fast enough).

I'm not sure if we are supposed to state how we feel the MU is, but it feels pretty even for doggy and butterknifeman. If not, maybe slightly better for doggy, only because of projectiles and the similar speed to Marth. 50:50 or 60(DHD):40(Marth). Not a terrible time as long as you stay aware, capitalize on laggy moves and keep pressure,.

 

[Mixi]

Hi everyone, I've been a member for a month of so, but I haven't really posted much. I've mainly spent my time reading a LOT of stuff on this awesome website. Anyway, I'm going to a tournament at my high school through our Video Game Club. Most people are casual, but a few others know the aspects of spacing, etc. The tournament is character locked so I know I'll be playing against a Rosalina that somewhat knows what he's doing. I'm not very good as I haven't had too much time to play, and I definetly can't execute d-tilt traps or consistently punish obvious patterns. But, my spacing and ledgeguarding are ok. I don't have enough time to heavily practice the ideas stated in some of the really good Marth guides on this page. So, considering all of this, what would you guys say the matchup is like and what general advice and tips could you guys give me? I'd appreciate any advice at all from anyone since everyone here is probably better than me xD

 

[Locuan]

Hi there @ M Mixi ! First of all welcome to Smashboards and the Marth character board! I moved your post to the Marth Match-up Thread which is pinned to the forum. Please utilize this thread to ask any match-up questions etc and someone will be sure to help you out! Additionally, please visit our Table of Contents. It will direct you to all of the Competitive Resources we have compiled for Marth at the present time.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Huh? People are doing DH MUs? He only has like 6 players though.

Sorry to go off topic, but hey Marth only has like 8 players in this game.

 

[Random4811]

Sorry to go off topic, but hey Marth only has like 8 players in this game.

You say this and you've been here how long? You're underselling us a fair bit. There's like, atleast 20 of us. Just 8 frequenters of the board. And lots of people secondary us. Mopcina players will eventually realize who the true Waifu is after being beaten by our lovely hero king enough times, so I'm confident that we will rise in numbers sometime.

Anyway, onto the MU. I'll give the shorter version now, and the longer version.. er.. sometime if I remember.

DH has a lot of good zoning options, and can generally push us around a fair bit. He has a good bit of advantage as his Smashes have lingering hitboxes (though not by much, they don't last super long) and thus create a problem for us if we arent careful when we try to punish.

The can is sort of a useful option for him, but its real easy for us to turn it back on DH. Infact, a good video of DH getting wrecked by his own tools can be found here. It exemplifies that playing smart will lead to the can being DH's biggest downfall.

The clay pigeon and the gunman can be annoying, as the clay can be delayed for a while- and many often forget that, leading to DH being able to punish us for getting too close to a grounded clay. The gunman has good range and KB, but takes a little bit to get set up. As others have said, its a good opening. It can be taken out pretty easily, although unlike the can, it wont hurt DH.

I'd say that given DH's options vs ours, its a 40:60 in DH's favor. The match-up is a little bit difficult for Marth, but its not awfully hard. DH's tools are good for zoning and setting up traps, but he doesnt shut us out as bad as, say, Mega Man. One of the biggest things I'd say to look out for is his Fsmash, as it gains range as it charges. His recovery is pretty good, so going for a gimp is going to require some good edge guarding and a stage spike for an early-ish kill.
He's light, so we can kill him earlier than we could kill, say, Mopcina. I don't know his kill ranges well, but I'm pretty sure we can kill him a ways earlier than he can kill us.

I'll have more indepth opinions after I am able to play my mate Chris.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

You say this and you've been here how long? You're underselling us a fair bit. There's like, atleast 20 of us. Just 8 frequenters of the board. And lots of people secondary us. Mopcina players will eventually realize who the true Waifu is after being beaten by our lovely hero king enough times, so I'm confident that we will rise in numbers sometime.

That was just an exaggeration. I'm pretty sure the person I replied to was also exaggerating. Again, sorry to go off-topic.

 

[WispBae]

DH has a lot of good zoning options, and can generally push us around a fair bit. He has a good bit of advantage as his Smashes have lingering hitboxes (though not by much, they don't last super long) and thus create a problem for us if we arent careful when we try to punish.

The can is sort of a useful option for him, but its real easy for us to turn it back on DH. Infact, a good video of DH getting wrecked by his own tools can be found here. It exemplifies that playing smart will lead to the can being DH's biggest downfall.

The clay pigeon and the gunman can be annoying, as the clay can be delayed for a while- and many often forget that, leading to DH being able to punish us for getting too close to a grounded clay. The gunman has good range and KB, but takes a little bit to get set up. As others have said, its a good opening. It can be taken out pretty easily, although unlike the can, it wont hurt DH.

I'd say that given DH's options vs ours, its a 40:60 in DH's favor. The match-up is a little bit difficult for Marth, but its not awfully hard. DH's tools are good for zoning and setting up traps, but he doesn't shut us out as bad as, say, Mega Man. One of the biggest things I'd say to look out for is his Fsmash, as it gains range as it charges. His recovery is pretty good, so going for a gimp is going to require some good edge guarding and a stage spike for an early-ish kill.
He's light, so we can kill him earlier than we could kill, say, Mopcina. I don't know his kill ranges well, but I'm pretty sure we can kill him a ways earlier than he can kill us.

I'll have more indepth opinions after I am able to play my mate Chris.

If I may elaborate on a couple points.

Lingering hitboxes are not really a thing, though there are 3 separate shots on every Smash (so 3 hit attempts). More experienced doggies tend to avoid unsafe F-Smashes attempts though. Even though there are 3 hits, the f-smash can glitch (or sourspot) resulting in the "nudge of life", where instead of flying off screen, it'll just push them a bit (the final shot in F-Smash is the KO move). It's similar to Wolf in Brawl and PM's , where the Smash can be finicky at times.

Turning the can on doggy is crucial to stage control indeed. Be sure to look out for d-tilts on can (send REALLY far and fast horizontal) and pivot f-tilts on can (to escape pressure). You may need to practice turning the can around as far as possible, since there are 2 hitboxes on can (the shots and actual can). The shot can pull people closer to the can and trigger the second hit.

Gunmen are tricky, just really need to learn of the two extremes. I have a small guide on the gunmen, I'll link it here in a moment.

Edit: Here is the guide: http://smashboards.com/threads/thoughts-and-uses-for-gunmen.376433/

TLDR for Guide: Fastest gunman is the coat, slowest is the tall, lanky one. Lanky has the largest distance (most of FD), strongest and shortest range are the sombrero bandit.

Be sure to always punish doggy's recovery, it can only be cancelled by sweetspotting a ledge and is not too fast. It also may be hard to challenge doggy head on, as his moves reach pretty far (but not disjointed). For example, his Fair send the duck VERY far, with a tipper sweetspot as well (the duck's beak) however the duck itself is also a hurttbox.

Hope this helps.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! First of all, I would like to thank all of the DH mains for their input. Secondly, It's time for the new discussion period! This time we face off against Ike. Lets get started!

 

[Random4811]

I'll give a short version of my thoughts again. This will be more vauge, as I havent played my Ike main friend in a while, and he isnt super great at Smash (I'm teaching him slowly), so he isnt using Ike to his full potential quite yet. Ive only got a general idea in a lot of areas.

Marth and Ike both have disjoints and what not. They play by a lot of similar rules, but I think the rules favor Marth many times over.

Marth is much faster than Ike, and I think that this plus his tippers give Ike a real hard time. Ike is much slower, and Marth can get in his face while still being able to out manuever his attacks pretty easily.

Adding on that most of Ike's attacks have a fair amount of startinging lag, he is pretty susceptible to counters. He is heavy, so he can be juggled much easier than many other characters, and his recovery is pretty easy to gimp. Be careful edgeguarding it, because it can spike if he hits you right with it-- though how exactly, I am unclear.

His side B can be problematic, and ofcourse watch out for his counter.

I'd say the Matchup is in Marths favor, probably like 60:40 or 70:80.

 

[Shaya]

IMO Even-ish leaning Ike's advantage (maybe slight marth advantage)

Ike's grab game is pretty good here, his dtilt and jab are scary. Back air shares speed with our options and out ranges.

He's very heavy, we aren't killing him easy and a good ftilt, utilt or dtilt-> stuff can be ending us sub 100%.

 

[GrubGrub]

I was gonna mention some stuff based on edge-guarding, but I think I agree more with Shaya than Random because Ike has some moves that come out super fast like the jab which is difficult to punish. I also feel like Ike's follow-ups out of throws and moves like D-tilt and NAir are more guaranteed than Marth's who has tor rely on zoning and space far more.

In terms of off-stage, I think Marth has an advantage in that Ike's side-b is so straightforward, because he has to aim to sweetspot or go higher on to the stage for an even easier punish, Marth can just put out a FAir or BAir or even a counter. Sweet-spotting with Ike's Up B doesn't seem too easy, and when he misses you can space a FSmash out of shield to avoid getting hit by Ike's sword and punishing the land.

To be honest, I think it's an even 50:50, with both Ike and Marth able to be devastating to one another.

 

[PyroTakun]

As an Ike main, I'll have to agree with posts; it's a fairly even match, maybe slightly in Marth's favor.

Ike has the range but his attacks are a bit slower and have more end-lag for the most part, so it's not that difficult for Marth to get in Ike's face and punish. Throw follow-ups are definitely easier for Ike, and the off-stage game I'll have to hand to Marth since Ike's recoveries are predictable enough to punish with counter.

Overall it's going to come down to who's doing the better spacing and reads. I feel it's 50-50, maybe 55-45 in Marth's favor.

 

[Langston777]

Yeah, Marth does need to be very careful when close to Ike unless he's carrying momentum because dtilt and jab will come out very fast and tack on damage. It can be anyone's game since Ike's got better range but Marth's got the speed to punish whiffs. Ike has great damage potential once he lands a grab or dtilt though, and Marth isn't the heaviest character in the game so he'll die from a proper utilt, bair, or any smash attack below 100%.

Ike is at a real bad disadvantage off stage though. His aerials are slow and you can cover his entire below-stage recovery with an option as simple as "fair - if he airdodged, jump back and dolphin slash his aether to stage spike him", since aether loses it's armor pretty quickly. on top of that you have counter. My Ike friend has used quickdraw to recover above stage a few too many times, so i taught him just how powerful a tipper up smash is lol.

I'd say 5-5. he's slower but getting around Ike's normals makes Marth work for his damage. You really have to commit to your attacks, no footsie bull**** here

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Neutralish, won't be able to decide if there is a slight advantage one way or another until this MU gets played out at a top level more.

Ike basically found Marth during the transition between Brawl and SSB4, beat him up, and then took his aerial mobility and swapped it out with his own. This is rather nice for spacing when combined with Fair now auto-canceling: both Fair and Bair can be used fairly freely without being punished as long as we're spacing/retreating them properly or covering our landing with Dtilt after Fair.

During the right percent ranges, Ike can land 20-35ish% combos (Fair can combo into Dtilt/Jab/Grab, Dtilt can combo into Nair/Fair/Aether, Nair can combo into another Nair/Fair/Bair, Uthrow/Dthrow combo into Fair/Nair/Bair/Uair [Uair can be at kill percents as well during the Uthrow -> Uair combo]) All of them depend on opponent's percent/our Rage a bit, but we have a lot of options until you end up at killing percents.

Aether isn't that hard for us to sweetspot (aways assume high level of play after all), and Fair isn't really slow (starts quicker than Nair does now). The fact that we can't grab the stage with our back during Aether anymore however means that Counter is more than just a bit of pain. Quickdraw at least lets us mix it up every now and then.

On the other hand, with the fact that there is a few frames during everybody's ledgesnap where they can be hit, Ike can (theoretically) hit Marth with Eruption with great timing if Marth is sent off stage and has to use Up B to recover. Don't know how realistic it is to do that consistently even at the top level, but its potentially a valid option. Outside of Eruption, Ike can risk trying to land a Fair/Bair and still make it back if Marth is stuck recovering low. If Marth is low I'd imagine trying to defend with Counter wouldn't be a good option. Curious to see how Ike's Fair vs Marth's Uair plays out off stage in that situation.

Ike still has most of his anti-air/anti-airdodge options from Brawl but its my understanding that Marth is more ground based now? If Marth does juggle us Ike still has issues getting back down, but with the increased ending lag on Marth's aerials I don't see this being as much of a factor as it was before in Brawl.

Do you guys also discuss the MUs with customs on? That starts to get really interesting with Tempest and Close Combat in play.

 

[LoreLes]

This is my personal experience against Ike's at my local tournaments.

I'd like to call it even overall and it mostly boils down to the players. Ike has a great grab game and his close quarters is a lot better than Marth's but great spacing with Fair/Dtilt keeps the entire match very Neutral. It comes down to straight who had better reads or unfortunate misreads.

 

[Random4811]

Ike still has most of his anti-air/anti-airdodge options from Brawl but its my understanding that Marth is more ground based now? If Marth does juggle us Ike still has issues getting back down, but with the increased ending lag on Marth's aerials I don't see this being as much of a factor as it was before in Brawl.

Marth is definitely not more ground based. His aerials are still dangerous, and still a very big problem for Ike. Uair is still going to juggle very very well. Marth's strat changes are mainly that he is much more read based now than before, because he has a lot more commitment with his attacks. He still has the ability to juggle Ike pretty well.

My thing that makes me think Marth has more than a slight advantage is how slow Ike is. I need more playtime with good Ike players to get a great feel for the MU, but at the level I know it now, I think Marth does better than Ike for sure. Ike may be a heavier hitter, but Marth gets in his face pretty easy. He can generally keep out of Ike's path while still managing to get in decently. He just needs to condition Ike a little, bait out attacks, and he can generally punish pretty good. And hey, if nothing else, counter is pretty good against Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The problem with that is this: Ike ain't that slow.

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ Compare the landing lag for both characters there, and keep in mind that its not taking into account auto-canceling (Ike's Fair and Bair). Marth obviously has his auto-cancels as well but the general point is that they're basically dead even in terms of landing from aerial attacks. As for start up, Ike's Bair is chilling at roughly the same speed as Marth's Fair (1 frame slower I believe). Ike's Fair/Nair/Uair are a tad slower but exchange that for lingering hitboxes that eat airdodges, particularly Nair and Uair. Then you take that information and combine it with: http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...-decisive-arts-pit-dark-pit-rectified.383217/ Ike is faster in the air than Marth in terms of movement speed. This means that even if Marth has faster aerial attack speed, he's going to have troubles hitting Ike between Ike's superior range + movement speed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/ Marth does win in ground movement speed obviously, but its not as clear cut as "Marth is faster". In terms of movement that depends on if you're talking ground or air, and in terms of aerial attack recovery Ike is tied with Marth if not faster depending on Auto-Cancels/IASA data which I don't easily have on hand.

On the ground Ike is going to use his Jab a lot (Faster than Marth's anything, Marth's jab has more range) and Dtilt (Hits on Frame 6 or 7 and is all around amazing) along with his Grab primarily. In some cases a Pivoted Filt which thankfully got its ending lag reduced in 1.0.4 so its not nearly as punishable as it appears if properly spaced/angled. Usmash is used basically for punishing aerial landing lag/air dodges/platform pressure/roll punishes. Utilt is another anti-air option that's faster and still hits like a Smash attack.

"Condition, bait out attacks, and punish" is a rather generic thing. I can claim the exact same thing with Ike: condition Marth to do X after Fair by not auto-canceling it, then auto-cancel it after baiting and then punish. Counter likewise works both ways. What do you think happens to Marth if his Fsmash gets Countered after all? Same thing that happens to Ike if his Ftilt gets Countered.

---

Basically Ike and Marth are pretty evenly matched. Ike wins the air game and short ranged ground game. Marth wins the mid ranged ground game and gimping game. Both are KOing each other quickly, Ike a tad more quickly outside of a surprise gimp. Both players are going to hate Counter after the match.

 

[LionMagnus]

The problem with that is this: Ike ain't that slow.

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ Compare the landing lag for both characters there, and keep in mind that its not taking into account auto-canceling (Ike's Fair and Bair). Marth obviously has his auto-cancels as well but the general point is that they're basically dead even in terms of landing from aerial attacks. As for start up, Ike's Bair is chilling at roughly the same speed as Marth's Fair (1 frame slower I believe). Ike's Fair/Nair/Uair are a tad slower but exchange that for lingering hitboxes that eat airdodges, particularly Nair and Uair. Then you take that information and combine it with: http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...-decisive-arts-pit-dark-pit-rectified.383217/ Ike is faster in the air than Marth in terms of movement speed. This means that even if Marth has faster aerial attack speed, he's going to have troubles hitting Ike between Ike's superior range + movement speed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/ Marth does win in ground movement speed obviously, but its not as clear cut as "Marth is faster". In terms of movement that depends on if you're talking ground or air, and in terms of aerial attack recovery Ike is tied with Marth if not faster depending on Auto-Cancels/IASA data which I don't easily have on hand.

On the ground Ike is going to use his Jab a lot (Faster than Marth's anything, Marth's jab has more range) and Dtilt (Hits on Frame 6 or 7 and is all around amazing) along with his Grab primarily. In some cases a Pivoted Filt which thankfully got its ending lag reduced in 1.0.4 so its not nearly as punishable as it appears if properly spaced/angled. Usmash is used basically for punishing aerial landing lag/air dodges/platform pressure/roll punishes. Utilt is another anti-air option that's faster and still hits like a Smash attack.

"Condition, bait out attacks, and punish" is a rather generic thing. I can claim the exact same thing with Ike: condition Marth to do X after Fair by not auto-canceling it, then auto-cancel it after baiting and then punish. Counter likewise works both ways. What do you think happens to Marth if his Fsmash gets Countered after all? Same thing that happens to Ike if his Ftilt gets Countered.

---

Basically Ike and Marth are pretty evenly matched. Ike wins the air game and shot ranged ground game. Marth wins the mid ranged ground game and gimping game. Both are KOing each other quickly, Ike a tad more quickly outside of a surprise gimp. Both players are going to hate Counter after the match.

I coudln't agree more with this.

 

[Locuan]

Alright everyone thanks for your input! This discussion period we focus on the Luigi match-up. Lets get started!

 

[Penguin4478]

I play a lot of Luigi, and a bit of Marth (I used to be more active with him in Brawl). In general, Marth has a somewhat neutral matchup thanks to fireballs pressuring him from a range, but still outclassing Luigi in close range. In general, at close ranges, Luigi can't do much but punish with grab and play defensively, but a single grab can lead up into really heavy combos early. Once the Marth hits around 40+, Luigi can still use his dthrow + uair combo, but after the first uair it becomes a mindgame. If you try and counter but he reads it you're screwed from super jump punch. I would say retreating nairs or fairs would be the safest option, but if he reads this he can easily punish with cyclone as well.

In general, the matchup is based off of who can control distance and avoid getting punished the best. In a lot of cases after some percentage builds up, it just becomes a large mindgame and the person who outplays wins. Luigi can really cheese you with a super jump punch punish if you aren't careful, and can combo ridiculously heavy early, so watch out for that. Aside from that, once you're in close range, you can handle him pretty with good management of range. You also edgeguard him really well (except for those rare misfire cases).

 

[Z-Bone]

I thought you guys were discussing the Yoshi matchup.

 

[Locuan]

@ Z Z-Bone we have specified discussion periods but this threads purpose is to discuss any of Marth's match-ups. So if a match-up is out of the discussion period that does not mean one cannot ask/discuss about it.

 

[Z-Bone]

Well, the title of the thread currently says Yoshi, but no one is talking about Yoshi, hence my confusion.

 

[KoM]

Quick non Yoshi question, I know Ike was covered but specifically how do I gimp his aether when he tries it from the ledge? When is he vulnerable and how would I go about it?

 

[LoreLes]

Quick non Yoshi question, I know Ike was covered but specifically how do I gimp his aether when he tries it from the ledge? When is he vulnerable and how would I go about it?

You can't. You can possibly catch him before he uses Aether or after the start up frames but chances are he's still going to get on stage and give up your control. It's better if you let him take the edge and just try to trap him there.

 

[KoM]

You can't. You can possibly catch him before he uses Aether or after the start up frames but chances are he's still going to get on stage and give up your control. It's better if you let him take the edge and just try to trap him there.

Yes but what if he tries doing Aether from the ledge after he's already snapped to it? He sometimes rises far above the stage when he does this and someone I play frequently tries this occasionally and I feel like I'm supposed to attack at some point during the Aether but I don't know when so I don't risk it.

 

[Locuan]

Well, the title of the thread currently says Yoshi, but no one is talking about Yoshi, hence my confusion.

You could be the first to provide input on the match-up

 

[LoreLes]

Yes but what if he tries doing Aether from the ledge after he's already snapped to it? He sometimes rises far above the stage when he does this and someone I play frequently tries this occasionally and I feel like I'm supposed to attack at some point during the Aether but I don't know when so I don't risk it.

At that point you can counter it if it's being spammed or becoming predictable. I believe upsmash trades with this but it's in your favor.

 

[KoM]

At that point you can counter it if it's being spammed or becoming predictable. I believe upsmash trades with this but it's in your favor.

Thanks a lot, just got to work on the timing then.

 

[Snailtopus]

Thanks a lot, just got to work on the timing then.

A friend of mine does that too, counter works every time. It's actually kind of funny

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Quick non Yoshi question, I know Ike was covered but specifically how do I gimp his aether when he tries it from the ledge? When is he vulnerable and how would I go about it?

You can't just gimp his Aether unless you have a windbox or a move to turn him around like mario's cape. You know what they say: Respect Ike's recovery.

 

[Charls]

The Yoshi matchup basically boils down to stuffing approaches and avoiding pressure from Egg Toss with proper positioning. Marth's biggest issue against the dinosaur comes with his ability to weave in and out of or simply go through our effective range because of his great mobility. Up close and personal it is up to the Marth player to land consistent pokes, and reads when posible, as to create a threatening presence that forces Yoshi to back away and create some space or go wild and attemp to break your circle. Reliable as it may be, Egg Toss becomes predictable and easily telegraphed with experience in the matchup - more of a nuisance than anything. Shielding his eggs should be avoided if possible, and perfect shielded in cases it is not. Otherwise, simply moving out of it's trajectory path will be effective enough. If ever Egg Toss becomes a problem, most likely it will be as a part of his approach. However, hereinlies what I believe to be Yoshi's dilema: Yoshi lacks a reliable approach outside of bait tactics and his eggs. While Yoshi may not need anything else than egg spam to seek an opening, if Marth maintains his grounded zone while slowly approaching, he can keep himself mostly intact until Yoshi makes a mistake or we find an opening ourselves.

Marth's dtilt, jab, utilt and fair all come to mind when fighting Yoshi. Anti-airs as a whole really help against Yoshi in my opinion. Dance Trotting can easily bait out a response from Yoshi to then be quickly punished. Edgeguarding should be avoided for the most part as it tends to be a futile attempt, Yoshi's second jump will make sure of that.

Overall, I'm not completely sure of the number for this matchup. I feel a lot more could be said, particularily on how Yoshi can more or less camp Marth and provoke an easily punishable reaction, or How Marth can limit Yoshi's few approach options and create opportunities by demanding respect towards his zone. The real struggle is being able to demand anything at all without risking our own hide. I'm feeling a 55:45 Marth's favor at best, maybe even at 50:50.

 

[LoreLes]

I believe the match up is actually slightly in Yoshi's favor. With egg toss and being much more mobile, Yoshi can definitely ruin any game plan Marth has.

Yoshi's range is not that much shorter than Marth's so a lot of trades will be happening and usually in Yoshi's favor. Also if you go for DB then you have to commit with it and can't spend any time using it for setups or just delaying otherwise you're going to eat Nairs.

The only way I play this match up is to constantly walk and bait at mid range and not give him time to use eggs. You have to be patient but as well as always in that range to pick off any mistakes he makes while protecting yourself.

 

[Charls]

I believe the match up is actually slightly in Yoshi's favor. With egg toss and being much more mobile, Yoshi can definitely ruin any game plan Marth has.

Yoshi's range is not that much shorter than Marth's so a lot of trades will be happening and usually in Yoshi's favor. Also if you go for DB then you have to commit with it and can't spend any time using it for setups or just delaying otherwise you're going to eat Nairs.

The only way I play this match up is to constantly walk and bait at mid range and not give him time to use eggs. You have to be patient but as well as always in that range to pick off any mistakes he makes but as well as being able to protect yourself.

I can definitely see where you're getting at. Yoshi's greater mobility does make the matchup one where caution is of utmost importance and any slight errors end up with nasty punishes. Nairs are also a great point; against Yoshi any laggy follow ups are just asking for nairs. I think it really does come down to just playing patiently. His attack aren't the most lagless, but with him being the equivalent of a moving hitbox it gives him plenty of room for error, where as Marth does not share that same leniency in his gameplan.

 

[Random4811]

IMO Yoshi has the advantage.

He can rush down on us and pressure us super hard at any given point. We have to be extra extra careful around Yoshi, and he can more or less throw caution to the wind.

SHFF nairs, FH retreating fairs and bairs, and SH bairs are hyper important to the matchup.

If you can start conditioning him to shield, You may be able to get a shield break.

All his punishes are absolutely disgusting and he can easily destroy us if we arent playing super carefully.

Yoshi has a really easy time getting in our guard.

Honestly, I have more trouble against Yoshi's then I do against Sheiks.

I'd say based on my light experience with Yoshi, its like 30:70 or 40: 60 in Yoshi's favor.

 

[Crawfish]

30:70 is super overboard

 

[Shaya]

This is one of Marth's better high/top tier match ups in my opinion.

Yoshi is a dominant force a lot due to his priority + mobility, his moves have long active frames but aren't quick and devastating like any of Sheik, Diddy or ZSS's aerials can and usually will be.

Transcended priority options in all of our specials, but in particular dancing blade, shield breaker can at worse trade but generally win through yoshi's aerial and grounded actions alike.
Disjoints/swords means that a lot of yoshi's moves which he throws out just because is suddenly a liability.

egg throw forward (react to him moving forward is a must) is counter-bait and this will force a lot of respect out of yoshi. A lot of marth's grounded attacks can go right through eggs and smack yoshi as well (a yoshi who ever ledge jumps or in general egg jumps towards Marth can take a tipper on reaction too!)
Marth can have a hard time killing Yoshi because of no shield pokes (dtilts, nairs or fairs shield poking other characters is pretty helpful) but Yoshi's shield dies faster too (shieldbreaker!). Yoshi's jab1 to up smash without holding away is a combo/death every time. Even holding away can go poorly but it's much less consistent.
With this in mind, Marth's up throw for stock taking becomes pretty real and game defining, when both characters are above 100%, Marth can get the up throw from 130%ish.

Use back air, yoshi's generally coming from above or below and in general back air is covering the way yoshi does so better (bair starting low is great, and reaching high above marth and away too, and the least amount of lag we'll get for a short hop aerial).

Nair out of shield from Yoshi requires a lot of spacing comfortability, otherwise you'll get hit by it on shield hits 100% of the time.

Thinking 60:40 at worse for Yoshi from what I've experienced.

 

[Random4811]

Im speaking solely out of the very light experiance I have with Yoshi. Its an MU that I have touched very little, but the experiance I've had with it has been damning. (hence the overkill score)

Shaya is probably right, and a lot of the stuff he's saying makes perfect sense.

I know that Yoshi is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and he hurts.

He's fast, he can be easily very aggressive where we cannot, and he can punish like a train.

In a lot of ways, he's sorta like Falcon with an annoying projectile, given how much mobility and momentum Yoshi has.

I'm still leaning toward 40:60 in Yoshi's favor. At most I'd say its 45:55 in Yoshi's favor. That MF green dinosaur does some serious work.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

This is one of Marth's better high/top tier match ups in my opinion.

Yoshi is a dominant force a lot due to his priority + mobility, his moves have long active frames but aren't quick and devastating like any of Sheik, Diddy or ZSS's aerials can and usually will be.

Transcended priority options in all of our specials, but in particular dancing blade, shield breaker can at worse trade but generally win through yoshi's aerial and grounded actions alike.
Disjoints/swords means that a lot of yoshi's moves which he throws out just because is suddenly a liability.

egg throw forward (react to him moving forward is a must) is counter-bait and this will force a lot of respect out of yoshi. A lot of marth's grounded attacks can go right through eggs and smack yoshi as well (a yoshi who ever ledge jumps or in general egg jumps towards Marth can take a tipper on reaction too!)
Marth can have a hard time killing Yoshi because of no shield pokes (dtilts, nairs or fairs shield poking other characters is pretty helpful) but Yoshi's shield dies faster too (shieldbreaker!). Yoshi's jab1 to up smash without holding away is a combo/death every time. Even holding away can go poorly but it's much less consistent.
With this in mind, Marth's up throw for stock taking becomes pretty real and game defining, when both characters are above 100%, Marth can get the up throw from 130%ish.

Use back air, yoshi's generally coming from above or below and in general back air is covering the way yoshi does so better (bair starting low is great, and reaching high above marth and away too, and the least amount of lag we'll get for a short hop aerial).

Nair out of shield from Yoshi requires a lot of spacing comfortability, otherwise you'll get hit by it on shield hits 100% of the time.

Thinking 60:40 at worse for Yoshi from what I've experienced.

A few questions.
What exactly is special about dancing blade in this matchup anymore?
What situation are you smacking through yoshis eggs and hitting him with the same move, and which grounded moves are you doing this with?
What do you mean by his shield dies faster, and who's shield are you comparing it to?
Why exactly do you think Yoshi loses?

General matchup stuff with some yoshi perspective. You're neither slightly leaning more to juggle because you do have options for all of our options, but they aren't great and prone to getting baited, and your mobility lets us get away with things that would never work on characters like wario.

We both need to respect eachothers shield game and shield pressure game at the same time if that makes sense. The one with less experience against the other character will probably have a rough time. So for you just be aware that we have the ability to punish anything laggywith a dash attack, and that we will 100% punish anything badly spaced with a really easy oos nair. As for when we're attacking your shield, Dair egglay and down b will nearly 100% of the time beat out your shield if you let it connect. As for our shield pressure, fair, eggs and egglay are all safe on your shield if they're allowed to hit it, but you can beat out each individual option. Dair will shield poke 99% of the time and beats spot dodges, but the start up lag makes it easy to beat out. If you're sensing a dair be sure to fair or dolphin smash before it comes out (maybe roll but thats kinda iffy). Downb is a shield breaker. Do not be a hero and try to just hold shield. Spot dodge or something.

Its easy and safe to edge guard you, but we'll more or less never gimp you. If we gimped you it was your fault.
You can edge guard us realtively easy too, but if you go off stage, we're probably getting back onstage for free. If you're going to go offstage after us, try to go for a gimp. Because its really not worth trying for anything else.

I think its an even matchup that depends more on the players than anything else.

 

[Locuan]

The Yoshi discussion is pretty much something we need to go back on. There are differing viewpoints and we need to expand on each to achieve accurate data and numbers. Feel free to keep the discussion going. On the other hand, this discussion period, we face off against Wii Fit Trainer! Let's get started!