Marth Data

[Ultinarok]

Also another tidbit.

People who think Marth have less range than in Brawl, assuming engine specifics such as positional units are of the same scale, are mostly unfounded.

Not trying to sound like a prick but...I could tell his range was as good, if not better, than Brawl from the moment I picked him up. How did no one else notice? Falchion's model is visibly longer in side by side comparisons. I feel like circle pad input on 3DS was making people have a harder time placing his attacks and his tipped strikes, causing them to just barely miss and assume he had less range.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I honestly think ALOT of people went from melee to this game due to brawls bad reputation. So they were seeing his ranges nerfs from melee to brawl in this game for the first time. Thats the impression i got with this game.

 

[Ultinarok]

I honestly think ALOT of people went from melee to this game due to brawls bad reputation. So they were seeing his ranges nerfs from melee to brawl in this game for the first time. Thats the impression i got with this game.

What's ironic is that Marth went from being a secondary for me to one of my absolute favorites, to the point that he is my most played character on the Wii U. I actually like him BETTER than I ever have. His tippers and attacks feel good, and Shield Breaker, Counter and DB are so satisfying to kill with that I find myself playing him more than before.

Yeah, his aerials are nerfed, but his ground game was buffed. Not necessarily worse, just different. I prefer aerial fighting personally, but he still transitions well between the two, even if he's laggier than before. And that Side Smash is just pure sex. Killing Dorf uncharged from almost midway across FD at 55%? Yes, please. And maybe its just my skill improving, but I time DB better than I used to. I have a better feel for the control of it and can get the finisher I want almost every time.

Marth is still high tier. I stand by it. He is not as good, but he's still one of the better characters. Yeah he gets trumped by Diddy a lot, but who doesn't? I will admit that he's worse overall, but I like the way he feels better. Am I the only human being that is just now hopping on the Marth-mainer bandwagon three generations in when he's at his worst he's ever been? Maybe. But his new design and the way he feels to use, both in 1v1s and 8 player games, is just awesome.

 

[Shaya]

Without customs, Marth loses (through my experiences, noticeably) to these top/high tiers:

Possibly also:

Out of the popular ("high tier") characters. So basically all of them bar (which any could progress against us)
while also having hard/feasibly losing match ups throughout the game:

These may not be too bad/may get better, but either way, to have a bleak tournament presence such as this necessitates something less than high tier. This is coming from either playing these characters or playing against and studying with mains/great players of those characters.
In a lot of match ups, Ike actually comes out on top due to having a similar fair, but being longer range + more damage + better aerial mobility = safer on shield while also having a faster ground tool in jab for consistent damage, better throw game, arguably better recovery/kill capabilities. Marth doesn't really have good match ups right now because he's just way too unsafe on shield with everything against everyone.

This isn't trying to be pessimistic, so don't take it as such. I wouldn't put that many of these match ups (bar against high/top tiers) as super struggles. Even ness, pikachu and sonic can be played close enough a lot of the time (so soft-ish counters). But Marth has to be playing extremely passive in most of these as any attempt at pressure is frame trapping yourself essentially... stuff like fast start up long range disjointed tools will never be that bad, but misusing them is death in Smash 4.

 

[Locuan]

Could you explain frame trapping in a little bit more detail @ Shaya ?

fast start up long range disjointed tools will never be that bad, but misusing them is death in Smash 4.

I have been noticing this as well. What is the underlying reason though? A specific engine mechanic?

 

[Shaya]

As in, instead of Marth's tools being able to shield or frame trap their opponents (like let's say he can cover the shield drop dash attack, or the spot dodge or the roll with specific choices), when Marth hits a shield he's just giving his opponent a free dash to X in which then they get to choose an action that covers those various options follow up options from us, or just have the guaranteed punish.

Marth has less aerial mobility in this game than in Brawl.
There is less shield stun in this game than in Brawl. But shield push back is larger (Marth's damage has been hit hard on a lot of moves though).

He has a lot more real end lag on his aerials than practically every other character in the cast, non-existent auto cancels and high landing lag. So by intentional choice, our moves aren't designed to be safe anymore (like they were in Brawl & Melee). I guess it's a byproduct of us not being designed to combo with our current frame data, but they haven't compensated that; that's why I bring up the Ike example, his numbers are in the right spot for this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is no other reason for Marth's tools being unsafe other than Nintendo made it so. It's not some game mechanic. Just his numbers plain and simple.

 

[Locuan]

I thought it would have been something similar to what you said but I was a bit off in my thinking. So there are a lot of factors, but it basically comes down to end lag in Marth's moves, aerial mobility, shield mechanics etc. In other words, its as Emblem Lord stated, it was designed to be that way. Thanks for the info, I learned something today as well.

 

[Vipermoon]

Mistake on Down Air from post #1. Tipper is Sakurai Angle and non tipper has both horizontal and vertical knockback.

 

[TurboLink]

I wonder why they gave his Up Smash Transcendent Priority.

 

[Shaya]

Just the tipper right?

If you read the alt trophy description I think it's almost thematic.
JUSTICE BLADE.

 

[A_Kae]

Just the tipper right?

If you read the alt trophy description I think it's almost thematic.
JUSTICE BLADE.

Actually, the side hitbox is transcendent as well!

Probably so that it can't be canceled or cancel something else with that hitbox.

I guess that's the usual reason for something being transcendent though.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, that was transcended in brawl anyway though (makes sense for a dust cloud that does damage, right? )

 

[Vipermoon]

I want the dust clowd to send them into tipper Usmash. That would be hilarious and it's apparently impossible.

 

[Shaya]

But yeah it probably has to do with the game's general trend of making Up Smashes "uber priority".
i.e. either transcended or invincible.

 

[Vipermoon]

Actually, there should be a "tipper dust cloud" that is an auto-tipper Usmash. See, I made it work.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Down Air's spike occurs for only 1 frame as the sword reaches downwards, and is centered on the body rather than the sword.

Can somebody help explain this to me please? As far as I knew, you could only spike by hitting the tipper on frame 11... am I wrong, or is there another way to spike?

 

[Vipermoon]

Can somebody help explain this to me please? As far as I knew, you could only spike by hitting the tipper on frame 11... am I wrong, or is there another way to spike?

Frame 11 is not a tipper, that's why it doesn't have a hitlag modifier and why Lucina has the same thing here. It only looks like a tipper because you usually need the tipper to avoid hitting on frames 10 or 12 or whatever which is the biggest reason for failed spikes.

There are ways to space it so that you get the spike at the sword blade (instead of tip). Marth's Dair starts behind him so if you move towards someone while Dairing you can strike them with the side of frame 11 as the sword moves from behind him to below/middle of him.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Frame 11 is not a tipper, that's why it doesn't have a hitlag modifier and why Lucina has the same thing here. It only looks like a tipper because you usually need the tipper to avoid hitting on frames 10 or 12 or whatever which is the biggest reason for failed spikes.

There are ways to space it so that you get the spike at the sword blade (instead of tip). Marth's Dair starts behind him so if you move towards someone while Dairing you can strike them with the side of frame 11 as the sword moves from behind him to below/middle of him.

Thinking about it, I did notice that there is never as much hitlag as with hitting with one of his other tippers for example... But I am still confused...

So, is it that any part of the sword on frame 11 will spike? Are you saying that that it is just more likely to spike if you hit the tipper (maybe due to frame 10 hitboxes accidentally hitting the opponent first, where as tippering it, this would not occur)?

 

[Vipermoon]

Thinking about it, I did notice that there is never as much hitlag as with hitting with one of his other tippers for example... But I am still confused...

So, is it that any part of the sword on frame 11 will spike? Are you saying that that it is just more likely to spike if you hit the tipper (maybe due to frame 10 hitboxes accidentally hitting the opponent first, where as tippering it, this would not occur)?

Yes, it covers the whole sword. Yes, that is exactly why. Frame 10 might hit them when you don't want them to.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yes, it covers the whole sword. Yes, that is exactly why. Frame 10 might hit them when you don't want them to.

I see... you never stop learning things huh? Thanks for explaining!

 

[DariusM27]

This may be a dumb question, but is there a link to up to date frame data? Thanks!

Edit - I'm guessing this is it, since it says 1.1.3. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

 

[Vipermoon]

This may be a dumb question, but is there a link to up to date frame data? Thanks!

Edit - I'm guessing this is it, since it says 1.1.3. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

Yup KH is basically all you need. The character attributes section is also amazing.

There are some mistakes however in Marth's page. Shield Breaker is two words. Now the important stuff: Nair autocancels on frame 1 (it shows no pre-hitbox AC like for Fair), DB2 and DB3 (down) damage values should be switched, SB fully charged is actually +50 SD aka shield damage, a bunch of DB moves have +1 SD, and DS is intangible on frames 1-5 when used in the air.

 

[DariusM27]

Yup KH is basically all you need. The character attributes section is also amazing.

There are some mistakes however in Marth's page. Shield Breaker is two words. Now the important stuff: Nair autocancels on frame 1 (it shows no pre-hitbox AC like for Fair), DB2 and DB3 (down) damage values should be switched, SB fully charged is actually +50 SD aka shield damage, a bunch of DB moves have +1 SD, and DS is intangible on frames 1-5 when used in the air.

What do you mean by autocancels, pre-hitbox AC, and intangible?

 

[Vipermoon]

What do you mean by autocancels, pre-hitbox AC, and intangible?

Autocanelling is the window that you are able to 'cancel' landing lag after doing an aerial. Like Marth's Bair for example. As it shows on KH, landing on frames 1 and 2 of Bair or landing on frames 32 to 39 (after 39 Bair ends anyway so it doesn't matter) means you don't take the 17 frames of landing lag Bair normally has. Instead you take the normal 4 frames of landing lag you otherwise get for simply landing. Pre-hitbox autocancel are those frames 1 and 2 that I mentioned in my Bair example. Since Bair's hitboxes are active from frames 7-11, frames 1-2 is the pre-hitbox autocancel window.

Intangible frames are like invincible frames except instead of hitting you, hitboxes phase right through you. An example of invincible frames is the invincibility you get after losing a stock where if you get hit during that time, the attack stills hits you (you can see the hitlag) but nothing happens.

 

[DariusM27]

Autocanelling is the window that you are able to 'cancel' landing lag after doing an aerial. Like Marth's Bair for example. As it shows on KH, landing on frames 1 and 2 of Bair or landing on frames 32 to 39 (after 39 Bair ends anyway so it doesn't matter) means you don't take the 17 frames of landing lag Bair normally has. Instead you take the normal 4 frames of landing lag you otherwise get for simply landing. Pre-hitbox autocancel are those frames 1 and 2 that I mentioned in my Bair example. Since Bair's hitboxes are active from frames 7-11, frames 1-2 is the pre-hitbox autocancel window.

Intangible frames are like invincible frames except instead of hitting you, hitboxes phase right through you. An example of invincible frames is the invincibility you get after losing a stock where if you get hit during that time, the attack stills hits you (you can see the hitlag) but nothing happens.

So you're saying that DS used in the air or after a jump means that Marth can take no damage and moves pass right through him on frames 1-5?

 

[Vipermoon]

So you're saying that DS used in the air or after a jump means that Marth can take no damage and moves pass right through him on frames 1-5?

Yes, and since it hits on frame 5 when he's still invincible, it will beat anything. Keep in mind during multi hit moves like Jabs, Marth's feet are technically off the ground so it's considered an air DS. That's why DS is such an amazing combo breaker (it's basically a frame 1 move). In Brawl even ground DS had frame 1 invincibility so it was crazy good out of shield.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yup KH is basically all you need. The character attributes section is also amazing.

There are some mistakes however in Marth's page. Shield Breaker is two words. Now the important stuff: Nair autocancels on frame 1 (it shows no pre-hitbox AC like for Fair), DB2 and DB3 (down) damage values should be switched, SB fully charged is actually +50 SD aka shield damage, a bunch of DB moves have +1 SD, and DS is intangible on frames 1-5 when used in the air.

Fixed all this aside from Nair because while technically an "error" it's not because you can't autocancel on frame 1 anyway. You can't input a move and land at the same time.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fixed all this aside from Nair because while technically an "error" it's not because you can't autocancel on frame 1 anyway. You can't input a move and land at the same time.

Ohhhhh. I get it. And thanks. You switched the DB damages wrong though. You switched DB2 and DB3 but you should have switched DB2 with DB3-down.

DB2: 3 or 4%
DB3: 4 or 5%
DB3 (down): 4.5 or 5.5% (this was the patch change, it used to he 3 or 4%)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lol I'm bad

Thanks.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a quick question. What was Dolphin Slash's landing lag in Brawl (not counting the landing lag glitch).

 

[Vipermoon]

Just a quick question. What was Dolphin Slash's landing lag in Brawl (not counting the landing lag glitch).

34 frames in Melee and Brawl. 23 frames at Smash 4 game release. Eventually it was buffed to 20. Just for fun, Roy's is 30 frames in every game.

 

[DariusM27]

Did anyone know that nair can true combo into Fsmash up to 43% on some characters, if your landing and dash cancel fsmash are all frame perfect? Incredibly hard to pull off, but it is a kill combo.

 

[Vipermoon]

Did anyone know that nair can true combo into Fsmash up to 43% on some characters, if your landing and dash cancel fsmash are all frame perfect? Incredibly hard to pull off, but it is a kill combo.

Yup. Landing Nair can combo into almost everything

 

[TurboLink]

Why is some of the frame data on here different from Kurogane Hammer?

Is it inaccurate?

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

Look at Marth's jab's active frames.

 

[Vipermoon]

Why is some of the frame data on here different from Kurogane Hammer?

Is it inaccurate?

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

Look at Marth's jab's active frames.

This was from the 3DS days and Shaya did the best with what he had. He did a great job. Kurogane has had some mistakes on the Marth page that I've told him about. Everything is corrected right now. Basically, we have more resources in game data these days so you take the human error out of frame counting which is how it was done before.

 

[ElementUser]

Question about Dolphin Slash's data on Kurogane's website:

Dolphin Slash (Early) 5 (Intangible: 4-5, Air: 1-5)

Does that mean Dolphin Slash has intangibility for frames 1-5 if used starting in the air? Or does that mean the hitbox is active from frames 1-5 if used in the air? I'm assuming it's the former. If true, I did not know this move had more frames intangibility when Marth uses it in the air :O

 

[A_Kae]

Question about Dolphin Slash's data on Kurogane's website:



Does that mean Dolphin Slash has intangibility for frames 1-5 if used starting in the air? Or does that mean the hitbox is active from frames 1-5 if used in the air? I'm assuming it's the former. If true, I did not know this move had more frames intangibility when Marth uses it in the air :O

Intangibility is 1-5 in the air, yes.

 

[Vipermoon]

It was frame 1 everywhere in Brawl. It was so nice to have out of shield.