Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[DtJ XeroXen]

Good find! I still wouldn't recommend shocking cape in that scenario (it's hard to set up frametraps because of the recovery).

I'm going to test it out with Bair next time I get a chance. Are you doing it at zero?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Good find! I still wouldn't recommend shocking cape in that scenario (it's hard to set up frametraps because of the recovery).

I'm going to test it out with Bair next time I get a chance. Are you doing it at zero?

Around 11-20% more specifically. While the timing is evidently VERY strict, I recall being able to successfully register a consecutive hit on Luigi once, meaning the combo potential is legitimate. I have not tried this against real people, but I hypothesize F-throw -> B-air -> U-air -> U-tilt is optimal on Luigi at that percent range.

Around 0 you just do D-throw -> Jab/U-tilt, and then the next time you get a grab, F-throw -> B-air sets up better combo/trap situations against floaty characters with fast N-airs.

Against someone like Jigglypuff you can literally F-throw -> U-air if your timing is perfect.

Also, something to keep in mind is that Shocking Cape out of F-throw/D-throw works at moderately high percents (haven't tested DI, but near the ledge given it's easier to combo into than F-air, you might as well do it).

The same combos barely don't work with Doc due to his lower horizontal movement speed, though he gets better frame advantage off his Jab cancel (can Jab cancel Up-B some characters) and his D-throw is slightly easier to combo with at mid percents.

 

[Coolwhip]

Aww man, I wish I had check Sboards this morning. I'll still play you tomorrow, A2Z.
Cannot wait until gamecube adapters are available in stores.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Aww man, I wish I had check Sboards this morning. I'll still play you tomorrow, A2Z.
Cannot wait until gamecube adapters are available in stores.

It's okay, I ended up being busy today. Try tomorrow at around say...~3pm PST.

Also I recommend the Classic/Wii-U pro controller personally. Though if you want a gamecube adapter, the 3rd party ones seem to be pretty good overall.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's okay, I ended up being busy today. Try tomorrow at around say...~3pm PST.

Also I recommend the Classic/Wii-U pro controller personally. Though if you want a gamecube adapter, the 3rd party ones seem to be pretty good overall.

I wouldn't recommend 3rd party, at least not the Mayflash ones.

There has been cases where controller inputs would lock up and your character would walk off the stage.

 

[Coolwhip]

I wouldn't recommend 3rd party, at least not the Mayflash ones.

There has been cases where controller inputs would lock up and your character would walk off the stage.

Nintendo told me the same thing. I do own a 3rd party wii lan adapter and it works like champ. I don't know if it'll work with the wii u though.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I'm pretty interested in F-Throw into bair setups. I feel like F-throwing someone from corner off stage and then following up with a bair would be a great way to provide off stage pressure and get some early Janky kills (in my mind at the right percent it could be like Ness Fair off-stage, too big and disjointed to challenge really). Hopefully the timing isn't too strict in most cases.

Edit: Is anyone thinking about going to Combo Breaker? I only heard great things about the UFGT series and I would like to talk Mario if any other mains were thinking about heading over.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty interested in F-Throw into bair setups. I feel like F-throwing someone from corner off stage and then following up with a bair would be a great way to provide off stage pressure and get some early Janky kills (in my mind at the right percent it could be like Ness Fair off-stage, too big and disjointed to challenge really). Hopefully the timing isn't too strict in most cases.

Edit: Is anyone thinking about going to Combo Breaker? I only heard great things about the UFGT series and I would like to talk Mario if any other mains were thinking about heading over.

Offstage stuff isn't as good usually because you need enough space to RAR Bair and because landing traps from juggles on stage give you superior followups overall.

F-throw to Shocking Cape at mid percents however really carries your opponent far. Isn't generally a KO setup except vs lightweight characters probably but it does 19 damage, which is pretty sweet for a 2 hit combo.

 

[BBC7]

Does regular Up B have one of those hitboxes that has the knockback of a train, but is usually cancelled by another hitbox? I'm asking because I got killed by Up B at 23% and I can't tell if it was because I was legitimately too close to the blastzone on Delfino, or because there's a crazy hitbox similar to the likes of Toon Link D-Smash or Mii Brawler One Inch Punch.

 

[HeroMystic]

Does regular Up B have one of those hitboxes that has the knockback of a train, but is usually cancelled by another hitbox? I'm asking because I got killed by Up B at 23% and I can't tell if it was because I was legitimately too close to the blastzone on Delfino, or because there's a crazy hitbox similar to the likes of Toon Link D-Smash or Mii Brawler One Inch Punch.

Mario's Up-B has fixed knockback on two of his hitboxes on Frame 7, and this is only affected by weight. This means the lighter the character, the farther they are sent. Mario can legit kill Jigglypuff with this at 0% at the top of Battlefield, along with a few others.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Why is it that a lot of Mario mains in sm4sh also happened to main him in past smash games? lol

 

[Xeze]

Speaking for myself, Mario games have always been a part of my life. I like Mario so I main him in Smash Bros, regardless of whether he is considered good or bad.

 

[Gam3rALO]

Why is it that a lot of Mario mains in sm4sh also happened to main him in past smash games? lol

They like to stick to him. I guess mario grows on people.
But this is the first smash game that Mario is one of my mains

 

[HeroMystic]

So if anyone doesn't know or haven't watched Nintendo Direct, in two weeks, a balance patch will arrive for Smash 4, which will include character tweeks. In preemptive fashion, I will let out my thoughts on how I think this would affect Mario.

I think Smash as a whole is fairly balanced. Very few characters need disruptive nerfs, and very few characters need viability buffs. What'll mostly matter is quality of life changes for characters. By that I mean, existing strategies will simply be more solid.

So for Mario, I can really think of two realistic changes that'll really help him.

-Final hit of Up-B being raised from 3% to 5%.

This is to make it so Up-B is safe on hit vs all characters. As it stands, heavy weights and fast fallers can punish Mario for using Up-B OOS as retaliation. Of course, this'll make Up-B's offensive options better (it becomes a more reliable kill move), and it makes U-air > U-air > Up-B much more potent.

-Less recovery on Fireballs.

This is the big one imo. As it stands, there's just too much recovery on Fireballs. They're usable, and they're worth using, but against speed characters they're extremely difficult to use on opponents who can effectively powershield each hit. Allowing Mario to act much quicker out of fireball will allow more freedom of use.

That's about it. I believe Mario is solid everywhere else.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I want four primary changes to Mario:

1. D-air hits PROPERLY comboing into the final, because it can be interrupted by 3 frame aerial attacks and also does not link very well on short characters.
2. Reduced landing lag on F-air, increasing its viability as a forward facing spacing tool and punish
3. slight damage increases to N-air, F-tilt, and D-smash (D-smash especially is pointlessly weak for its risk)
4. Increased base knockback and slightly reduced ending lag on D-throw and U-tilt, the goal to make Mario's combo game more evenly consistent throughout the cast

 

[Darrman]

Slight damage increases are all, really. Landing lag is low, barring Fair, but it's kinda high risk, high reward. A few frames off can't hurt, I guess. Maybe increase Usmash knockback a little, make kills easier?

EDIT: Did you know that Mario was a lot stronger, but much slower in the Smash 64 days? Usmashes did 19, but had loads of cooldown. Fsmashes did 17, and so did down. 17 to 10! It's not all that much quicker these days either. Utilts did 10, but had way more ending lag, so no combos there. Ftilts did 12, and they were only slightly slower. Fair did 16, but DID NOT SPIKE. It wasn't the dunk, it was like our modern bair. There's more differences too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Slight damage increases are all, really. Landing lag is low, barring Fair, but it's kinda high risk, high reward. A few frames off can't hurt, I guess. Maybe increase Usmash knockback a little, make kills easier?

EDIT: Did you know that Mario was a lot stronger, but much slower in the Smash 64 days? Usmashes did 19, but had loads of cooldown. Fsmashes did 17, and so did down. 17 to 10! It's not all that much quicker these days either. Utilts did 10, but had way more ending lag, so no combos there. Ftilts did 12, and they were only slightly slower. Fair did 16, but DID NOT SPIKE. It wasn't the dunk, it was like our modern bair. There's more differences too.

In Smash 64, everyone not named Samus basically killed you in three attacks. Basically didn't matter if there were items either given just everything in that game killed you.

Mario has an okay time killing people on stage, but I'd really want a damage increase on N-air to make his edgeguards and punishes in the air more threatening, especially given how strong ledge resets are against Mario.

 

[Darrman]

In Smash 64, everyone not named Samus basically killed you in three attacks. Basically didn't matter if there were items either given just everything in that game killed you.

Mario has an okay time killing people on stage, but I'd really want a damage increase on N-air to make his edgeguards and punishes in the air more threatening, especially given how strong ledge resets are against Mario.

How much damage do you feel it should do? 10/6? I ask the same for Ftilt and Dsmash. I agree with Dsmash, 10 damage is horrible. It was on par with Fsmash in the days of old, so 14 sounds good to me. Fsmash is 17 sweetspotted, 14 sour, so this bumps it up to Fsmash standards. Make the move a little quicker as well. Ftilt? Maybe a 1% buff to 8 might be in order. I concur on point 1 above too, can't the HOO-HAH break it? Increase hit 5's hitstun, I'd assume. Would you guys agree to reducing DA's lag? It makes it near useless.

 

[HeroMystic]

To note, hitstun is mainly dependent on how much damage an attack gives. Furthermore, damage also affects knockback.

So we can't say "increase hitstun" because there's no way to change it for individual moves. They'd have to change the engine entirely (which would screw everything up imo), so the only way U-tilt can have more hitstun is to increase it's damage back to 6% or higher, which also increases knockback.

If damage is going to be increased, I'd want priority #1 to be Up-B's final hit, then D-Smash, then F-tilt, then N-air.

I also agree with Point 1. Granted, Luigi and Doc has this same issue too.

 

[Darrman]

To note, hitstun is mainly dependent on how much damage an attack gives. Furthermore, damage also affects knockback.

So we can't say "increase hitstun" because there's no way to change it for individual moves. They'd have to change the engine entirely (which would screw everything up imo), so the only way U-tilt can have more hitstun is to increase it's damage back to 6% or higher, which also increases knockback.

If damage is going to be increased, I'd want priority #1 to be Up-B's final hit, then D-Smash, then F-tilt, then N-air.

I also agree with Point 1. Granted, Luigi and Doc has this same issue too.

Oh. Increasing hitstun doesn't work. I don't know every little thing about the Smash engine. But linking all of Dair will help, if only a little. Why do you want the Up B damage increase? I can see your reasoning, a 14% move is always nice. I can't think of too much buffs Mario needs. He's quick, and can rack up damage. He can do a little comboing. He's a highly ranked character. We shouldn't expect much. We need to beware the nerfhammer.

Social thread and all, so... Who do ye think will get nerfed? I think Diddy needs nerfing, as do most. Death to the hoo-hah!

 

[HeroMystic]

Oh. Increasing hitstun doesn't work. I don't know every little thing about the Smash engine. But linking all of Dair will help, if only a little. Why do you want the Up B damage increase? I can see your reasoning, a 14% move is always nice. I can't think of too much buffs Mario needs. He's quick, and can rack up damage. He can do a little comboing. He's a highly ranked character. We shouldn't expect much. We need to beware the nerfhammer.

Social thread and all, so... Who do ye think will get nerfed? I think Diddy needs nerfing, as do most. Death to the hoo-hah!

It'd actually be 15% damage if all hits connect.

Up-B is an excellent OOS option for Mario, but it's held back by being punishable on hit at low to mid-low percents. Increasing the knockback on Up-B's final hit insures this is no longer an issue, and it also helps Mario's big issue with kill confirms. (D-throw > U-air > Up-B at higher percents would be a kill combo on FD if no DI is applied.) It's a big quality-of-life change for him.

I don't see any reason at all to nerf Mario at all honestly. There's just... nothing broken or crutch-heavy about him. Realistically speaking I can only see nerfs through engine changes. If they're going to change him directly I can only see buffs.

Diddy is absolutely getting nerfed. We just don't know how strongly or in what way. I mostly expect U-air to have the same strength, but come out slower and have more recovery, making it a bigger risk to use. F-air will probably have less damage to compensate for it being so fast and powerful in neutral. U-throw may have more recovery to get rid of it's guaranteed kill set-up but a nerf to U-air will probably fix that anyway.

Sheik may be getting a nerf to needles.
Rosalina's Luma will probably get a nerf to U-air and maybe jab 3.
Sonic will probably be getting spindash nerfs.

That's probably it. If I were Mario I'd be worried about who's getting buffed.

 

[BBC7]

That's probably it. If I were Mario I'd be worried about who's getting buffed.

I'm honestly expecting a few Game & Watch buffs, and it's common belief around the Game & Watch boards that Mario is an easy match-up because fireballs do nothing to cover options when recovering since Game & Watch can Up B right through them and put Mario at a place where he can't recover from, basically meaning that Mario is dead off-stage since other options become easily predictable. On the other hand, Mario can't do anything to an off-stage Game & Watch that recovers low. Ground game is decent for both parties.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm honestly expecting a few Game & Watch buffs, and it's common belief around the Game & Watch boards that Mario is an easy match-up because fireballs do nothing to cover options when recovering since Game & Watch can Up B right through them and put Mario at a place where he can't recover from, basically meaning that Mario is dead off-stage since other options become easily predictable. On the other hand, Mario can't do anything to an off-stage Game & Watch that recovers low. Ground game is decent for both parties.

Sorry, but that looks really narrow-minded if they based Mario is an easy match-up due to off-stage play.

Mario can ledge-trump > B-air G&W, which is a kill confirm since G&W is so light. If he buffers a get-up, Mario gets a free tech chase.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main reason I'm against Up-B being buffed the way you suggest @ HeroMystic is because reliable KO confirms are honestly a really dangerous thing in this game, especially if they have really low risk setups. Look at where it puts Luigi, Sonic, and Diddy. Most people really don't like playing against them. I guess you could argue that the U-air juggles into Up-B are situational though, and I agree it would help a lot if Up-B were safe on hit at low percents.

For the most part, I don't really have a problem that Mario's KO options are situational, though in my opinion, I'd prefer to have better options to punish people for ledge resetting, which for instance could be directly addressed with a N-air damage buff. N-air has always been pretty easy to land offstage, but the reward if you don't get an outright gimp can be questionable when trading with your opponent's recovery offstage isn't ideal.

@ Darrman I'd probably want N-air to do 9/6 damage without reduced knockback values to compensate. As a side benefit, this kind of buff would make Mario a lot more wifi friendly when it happens to serve as a good conservative option for punishing dodges, but most importantly this buff makes ending combos with N-air or edgeguarding with it more threatening.

 

[BSP]

-Final hit of Up-B being raised from 3% to 5%.

This is to make it so Up-B is safe on hit vs all characters. As it stands, heavy weights and fast fallers can punish Mario for using Up-B OOS as retaliation. Of course, this'll make Up-B's offensive options better (it becomes a more reliable kill move), and it makes U-air > U-air > Up-B much more potent.

I doubt they'll increase the damage, but how about more base knockback on the final hit, but less growth to compensate?

 

[HeroMystic]

I doubt they'll increase the damage, but how about more base knockback on the final hit, but less growth to compensate?

This works too, though it can be iffy to find a good middle ground. As long as Up-B becomes safe on hit I'll take anything.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ DtJ XeroXen By the way if you haven't tried it yet, F-throw Up-B is a combo on everyone. Though like all of Mario's low% combos into Up-B, the safety on hit is questionable. However it does a whopping 19-20 damage. Doc can usually do the same combo too at low percents, though he gets the benefit of reversing his Up-B and doing max damage.

Works with Explosive Jump Punch as well (probably not with Ol One Two), though the timing on that one is more strict.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I haven't tried it but it's a thought I guess. I haven't gotten to play much offline to test Fthrow to Bair yet (although from my training room grind it seems really good)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just thought you would find it amusing. I know Up-B is your favorite move ever.

 

[smasher1001]

at what do you activate up b from throw? immediately? or do you run a bit and chase and then do it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

at what do you activate up b from throw? immediately? or do you run a bit and chase and then do it?

All combos from F-throw require you to run forward a bit to follow up.

You can viably combo Super Jump Punch, Explosive Jump Punch, Dash Attack, B-air, Shocking Cape, and Fast Fireball from F-throw depending on percent and character.

 

[Kevandre]

Figured I'd go to the social threads and post my silhouettes!

[url="http://www.redbubble.com/people/kevandre/works/13709305-paper-mario-sunset-shores"][/url]

 

[smasher1001]

Did some testing with a friends sheik in training mode. It seems like with shiek at least that f-throw to bair works very limitedly if at all, f-throw to up b seems to work twice from 0% before they have enough knockback to be fine.

So, in what situations would mario want to f-throw to bair/upb? main times i can think of would be low percent ranges where d-throw to up tilt wouldnt work and up throw to dair to bair/fair/upair wouldnt work. Any other reasonable times?

I still plan on practicing this to see if i can get some really good applications out of it.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

It's better on floatier characters where dthrow stuff isn't guaranteed at low percents. Like Luigi or Ness. Otherwise, it's not a bad mixup but Sheik will have to be at a higher percent for it to work.

It's not a true combo on the floatier guys until 10% though, so before that stick with whatever you are used to.

 

[smasher1001]

I just feel like most of the time where f-thow to up b would apply i could pull off a up throw dair into bair or upair for 30% instead. but on floaties that doesnt really work and you have said that f-throw to dair works well on them, i will have to look into this more still.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I don't know why you would ever f-throw to up-b. That's awful. I would only ever suggest f-throw to bair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know why you would ever f-throw to up-b. That's awful. I would only ever suggest f-throw to bair.

F-throw Up-B has uses for quick damage racking if you so happen to grab someone relatively close to the ledge. It's mostly pointless, but does have a dumb situation where it's practical given it's the most guaranteed damage you can get at 0% in some specific matchups. The combo is better on Doc who can get the full damage while reversing his Up-B.

But yeah as stated, F-throw B-air as I've observed is one of your better options at around 11% for getting followups on floaty characters who more easily get out of D-throw setups.

Also F-throw Shocking Cape is one of Mario's better mid% combos. Even in situations where it doesn't strictly combo, it's still a strong followup for stage control.

 

[HeroMystic]

Do you guys want me to make a Combo Theorycraft thread?

 

[Darrman]

Do you guys want me to make a Combo Theorycraft thread?

Sure.

http://smashboards.com/guides/the-art-of-the-dark-fist-finished.327/ Guys. Look at this. The very bottom of this guide mentions that with one of Ganon's up specials, Dark Fists, can combo from Flame Choke (side-b) and kill Mario, along with a bunch of other characters below 50%! Careful below Battlefield's platforms. Fun fact: It works on Diddy too.

 

[HeroMystic]

That pretty much means we CP Lylat or Delfino vs Ganon instead of Battlefield.