Mario Discussion: OP is a bad person

[rpotts]

What I'm seeing in my head is Mario hugging the side of the stage and Kirby being too far left to hit him, that doesn't match your description but I've seen things like that happen with other moves before that you'd swear should've hit.

 

[WINK ;)]

Tips on getting better with Mario. Any threads to refer me to. Just tips in general.

Also, the Japanese tier list says that Mario has a 30:70 matchup with Jigglypuff.... How?!

 

[Sangoku]

Tips on getting better with Mario. Any threads to refer me to. Just tips in general.

Also, the Japanese tier list says that Mario has a 30:70 matchup with Jigglypuff.... How?!

First, if you have a question concerning a character, please ask in the character thread (in this case, Mario's thread). I moved your posts in the Mario thread. Secondly, please try to avoid double posting, since it's really easy to edit a post.

Now concerning Mario, your question is really vague... Either you can come up with a more specific question (is there a particular matchup that you're struggling with? A situation? etc.), or, if you want general advice you should let us know your current level. The best way for us to roughly assess your level would be to provide videos of you playing (preferrably against good human players), then I think we would be able to give you advices suited to your gameplay.

 

[WINK ;)]

First, if you have a question concerning a character, please ask in the character thread (in this case, Mario's thread). I moved your posts in the Mario thread. Secondly, please try to avoid double posting, since it's really easy to edit a post.

Now concerning Mario, your question is really vague... Either you can come up with a more specific question (is there a particular matchup that you're struggling with? A situation? etc.), or, if you want general advice you should let us know your current level. The best way for us to roughly assess your level would be to provide videos of you playing (preferrably against good human players), then I think we would be able to give you advices suited to your gameplay.

I gotcha! Thanks. Im pretty low as skill goes. My tech is great, I know all of the tech but I say my skill is low because I do not really have any Humans to play 64 with. We have a good smash scene just none for 64 except for two people who I play with. First off my question about it is I am seeing people who main Mario use the Tornado. What situations is that really viable? I get punished because I never can connect with the tornado. Another thing is, the obvious question is what to do in the Pikachu matchup? I am always having my shield demolished, and being out zoned because the thunder jolt is better than the fireball. Its more like I am mind gamed into my shield and then have my shield destroyed then punished big time. Those are just two big things I guess.

Also why does Mario have a 30:70 matchup against Jigglypuff and Samus on the Japan tier list... I know the Meta is different and what not but that is completely different from what it says on the other tier lists? I am someone who does not really abide by tier lists as much as some but it did catch my attention.

 

[Sangoku]

I am not a good player and even less with Mario, so I'll let other more experienced players correct me/elaborate more.

1) Can you do all the advanced techs? Short hop, z-cancel, short hop double aerials, etc?

2) The tornado is useful for recoverying. If you mash B really fast Mario will rise significantly and that helps you recover. Do it from afar (before using your second jump) as the ending lag makes it easier for your opponent to hit you. Other than that, it shouldn't really be used and it's more a gimmick than anything else. Since it comes out really fast it could be a good defensive option, but Up B is as fast and is better to get you out of dangerous situations (escaping pseudo-combos).

3) Shielding is most of the time bad in smash 64. The huge amount of shieldstun makes for a lot of guaranteed aerials into grabs. Your defensive options are also reduced while shielding. I'm not sure what you mean by "shield demolished", but if you mean shieldbreak, then that should never happen against Pikachu. Even if you shield on accident (or because you didn't know what else to do), you have plenty of time to usmash/upb/roll/etc as Pikachu tries breaking your shield. Pika's best bet would be to grab you anyway in that case...

4) Pikachu's neutral B should never be a problem in any matchup. The fact you struggle with it hints me that you're probably still a beginner. To avoid those neutral B, you can short hop above them, go onto a platform, hit them, or even shield: they are so slow (as in Pika's ending lag is so huge) that even if you shield you'll be safe. On the contrary, if you're close enough you should even be able to punish Pika.

5) Fireballs are a lot better than Pika's neutral B. Mix up between short hop and full hop to fireballs. Full hop fireballs into grab can be an easy and effective strategy.

6) The metagame is defined by the players who play the game, so it's hard to say why the Japanese believe so. Keep in mind that it is a different game too. And even here, some people (Star King for example) are starting to believe Jigglypuff is better than Mario.

All in all these are really really basic tips, because as I said, it looks like you're a beginner and that your Pika opponent isn't really good. Again, if you could provide vids we could help more specifically.

 

[WINK ;)]

I am not a good player and even less with Mario, so I'll let other more experienced players correct me/elaborate more.

1) Can you do all the advanced techs? Short hop, z-cancel, short hop double aerials, etc?

2) The tornado is useful for recoverying. If you mash B really fast Mario will rise significantly and that helps you recover. Do it from afar (before using your second jump) as the ending lag makes it easier for your opponent to hit you. Other than that, it shouldn't really be used and it's more a gimmick than anything else. Since it comes out really fast it could be a good defensive option, but Up B is as fast and is better to get you out of dangerous situations (escaping pseudo-combos).

3) Shielding is most of the time bad in smash 64. The huge amount of shieldstun makes for a lot of guaranteed aerials into grabs. Your defensive options are also reduced while shielding. I'm not sure what you mean by "shield demolished", but if you mean shieldbreak, then that should never happen against Pikachu. Even if you shield on accident (or because you didn't know what else to do), you have plenty of time to usmash/upb/roll/etc as Pikachu tries breaking your shield. Pika's best bet would be to grab you anyway in that case...

4) Pikachu's neutral B should never be a problem in any matchup. The fact you struggle with it hints me that you're probably still a beginner. To avoid those neutral B, you can short hop above them, go onto a platform, hit them, or even shield: they are so slow (as in Pika's ending lag is so huge) that even if you shield you'll be safe. On the contrary, if you're close enough you should even be able to punish Pika.

5) Fireballs are a lot better than Pika's neutral B. Mix up between short hop and full hop to fireballs. Full hop fireballs into grab can be an easy and effective strategy.

6) The metagame is defined by the players who play the game, so it's hard to say why the Japanese believe so. Keep in mind that it is a different game too. And even here, some people (Star King for example) are starting to believe Jigglypuff is better than Mario.

All in all these are really really basic tips, because as I said, it looks like you're a beginner and that your Pika opponent isn't really good. Again, if you could provide vids we could help more specifically.

1. Yeah, I can. I can also move very fluidly.

2. I knew about the recovery but I see people use it in matches. I thought it was a gimmick as well but I guess you are right. Probably just a random punish to do. Ah, I didnt know that about escaping combos. It makes you helpless, Up-B that is, but I guess its a chance.

3.Yeah, I know that it is bad but its that I get mind gamed/ tricked into shielding basically. That is why I shield a lot against Pikachu because its a scary character for me playing Mario. I do well with my Fox, just not Mario.

4. Its like I am advanced in the tech game but I am not advanced in matchups or neutral game. I have no 64 tourney exp cause there are no tourneys with 64 around..

5. I do that but I still tend to think the thunder jolt is better but I guess the movement of the fireball is better.

6. I know, I just do not understand how it can be such a difference like that. That is a total 180 from the International match up guide.

I play melee really well. One of the best in my state and same with P:M. I am new to 64 so it would explain the fact that I do not know a lot of 64 matchups and what not since I fight either lv.9 computers or newbs like myself. So sorry with all the stupid questions.

 

[Battlecow]

You can play online to get experience vs humans

adapters for your n64 controller are only like $15

If you don't wanna do that then you're gonna have a hard time getting better without playing humans, but I respect you for trying. A good thing to do is watch the combos people do in videos and try to recreate parts of them in training mode/ask yourself why you can't do them and practice that.

 

[WINK ;)]

You can play online to get experience vs humans

adapters for your n64 controller are only like $15

If you don't wanna do that then you're gonna have a hard time getting better without playing humans, but I respect you for trying. A good thing to do is watch the combos people do in videos and try to recreate parts of them in training mode/ask yourself why you can't do them and practice that.

Did that My skill has increased a lot since I got 64online. Its great! I do have a little lag but its better than nothing.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Sup Mario players? Ceasar knows the Pikachu match up better than anyone I know. Watch this video if you're having trouble with the match up.

[collapse=] You could just watch Isai beat down pikas, but it might help to watch players a little closer to your skill level.

 

[M!nt]

Infraction for advertising pls

 

[The Star King]

Infraction for being Kero :^)

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I'm a Pikachu player that dropped games to a Mario player that learned how to play the game from me.

Definitely not advertising, just proud of my protégé.

 

[Timotheus]

one thing for the mario pika MU. Pika's utilt, uair and fsmash and usmash beat Mario's everything (when he's in the air). so you don't want to be above pika unless you know how to throw fireballs

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Mario vs Kirby Matchup is stay safe and get Kirby above you

 

[Combo Blaze]

no
kirby under you, he can drill/fair/bair you from above, but can only uptilt from below.

 

[Ceasar]

Suppose there is a scenario where I (Mario) am edge-guarding Yoshi on any stage with ledges. Yoshi is recovering and goes for the down-b towards the ledge. If I predict that Yoshi will use the down-b to get to the ledge, and attempt to counter it with either a well-spaced d-tilt or d-smash, would either of Mario's attacks:

1) Beat Yoshi's down-b?
2) Trade with Yoshi's down-b?
3) Lose to Yoshi's down-b?

Would Yoshi's damage percentage be a factor in how effective Mario's attacks would be against Yoshi's down-b?

 

[Sangoku]

D-tilt is better because it's more disjointed.

D-smash can work, but the spacing would need to be perfect if you just want to hit without trading. The size of the positioning window that works is roughly 75, knowing that Mario's roll covers a distance of around 1000. If you accept trading (which is good enough, unless you're at high percent), then there's more room: anywhere close to the ledge works. Then Yoshi could still win if you mistime the d-smash and the hitbox isn't out at the right place and at the right moment.

Yoshi's damage has nothing to do with anything, since after using a move (Down B in this case) he loses his super armor.

 

[SheerMadness]

The key to the Yoshi match up is not to challenge him. Just accept defeat.

 

[Ceasar]

D-tilt is better because it's more disjointed.

D-smash can work, but the spacing would need to be perfect if you just want to hit without trading. The size of the positioning window that works is roughly 75, knowing that Mario's roll covers a distance of around 1000. If you accept trading (which is good enough, unless you're at high percent), then there's more room: anywhere close to the ledge works. Then Yoshi could still win if you mistime the d-smash and the hitbox isn't out at the right place and at the right moment.

Yoshi's damage has nothing to do with anything, since after using a move (Down B in this case) he loses his super armor.

D-smash is now clear to me. When you say d-tilt is better, do you mean it is more likely to beat Yoshi's down-b than to either trade or lose to the down-b, since it's disjointed?

 

[clubbadubba]

what about fsmash?

 

[Sangoku]

I have this bad habit of reading posts thinking I'll answer later, then ending up forgetting.

D-tilt is better position-wise. Because you have more ground to stand, you will less likely trade and more likely hit only.
This is due to the hitbox being more disjointed. Compare the two, you'll see d-tilt's hitbox goes further:

However, to say one is simpler than the other, you must also factor in timing. In the case of D-tilt, there are 7 frames with the hitbox out, while d-smash has ~11 (if you only count the frames where the hitbox is in front of him, because that's what matters). So D-smash is easier if you want to hit and you don't care whether you're trading or not, and D-tilt is better if you don't want to trade.

F-smash now:

As you can see it's almost not disjointed and it will in fact either trade or lose. As the hitbox is out for only 5 frames, it doesn't look like a good option.

Do not take all this as granted by the way. This is just some mupen testing + hitbox image interpreting. Maybe exerience proved you otherwise.

 

[Ceasar]

This was very helpful info! I appreciate your response, Sangoku.

 

[Kimimaru]

What's the general consensus on the Mario-Fox MU? It's definitely in Fox's favor, but how much of an advantage would people say he has over Mario?

 

[Sangoku]

8:2 for Mario in my opinion. I'm not good though.

 

[Olikus]

Its a very close MU imo. Maybe slight advantage fox.

 

[Sensei]

Mario is one of my favorite secondaries to play as! He's got so many options at his disposal and it's super satisfying to end a combo with a SMASH attack!

 

[Kimimaru]

How about the Yoshi MU? What's the best way to edgeguard Yoshi if the Yoshi player stays out of grab range when recovering back on stage?

 

[<Fruity>]

How about the Yoshi MU? What's the best way to edgeguard Yoshi if the Yoshi player stays out of grab range when recovering back on stage?

Dair+another aerial is a good option.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I like doing dair then downb right after

 

[Skrlx]

Why does Mario's dtilt move the camera but his down smash doesn't?

 

[Kimimaru]

Dair+another aerial is a good option.

I believe Mario's fastest aerial is N-air, and Yoshi can just N-air you before you start your next aerial. What is the value of Yoshi's knockback reduction on his double jump in this game?

 

[Cobrevolution]

I believe Mario's fastest aerial is N-air, and Yoshi can just N-air you before you start your next aerial. What is the value of Yoshi's knockback reduction on his double jump in this game?

mario's moves that break yoshi armor at minimum percents

Spoiler

Mario
Jab_1 943 943 943 943 943
Jab_2 943 943 943 943 943
Jab_3 283 283 283 283 342
Dash 105 105 115 126 140
FTilt_High 94 94 102 111 122
FTilt_Mid 102 102 111 122 134
FTilt_Low 111 111 122 134 148
UTilt 87 87 97 97 108
DTilt 122 122 134 147 162
FSmash_High 53 53 58 69 75
FSmash_MidHigh 53 53 58 69 75
FSmash_Mid 58 58 63 75 82
FSmash_MidLow 58 58 63 75 82
FSmash_Low 63 63 69 75 89
USmash 38 38 46 50 55
DSmash 66 66 72 84 92
NAir 89 89 97 106 116
NAir 134 134 147 147 162
FAir 80 80 87 94 111
FAir 147 147 162 162 180
BAir 80 80 87 94 111
BAir 147 147 162 162 180
UAir 97 97 106 117 129
UAir 129 129 129 144 162
DAir Never
NSpec 850 850 850 958 958
USpec Never
USpec Never
USpec Never
USpec Never
USpec 195 195 195 195 195
DSpec Never
DSpec Never
DSpec Never

 

[Gerudo_King]

I would say combining Mario's dash attack along with an up-tilt work quite well for getting Mario's enemies in the air. Also d-throw followed by a down special and then finished up with aerials is another good way to deal solid damage, just figured I would shed a little light on my personal favorite moves. Also SPAM THE FIREBALLS FOR EDGEGUARDING!!! I know you guys may know to do this but I'm just reminding y'all. Fireballs, fireballs, fireballs.

 

[Cobrevolution]

downthrow? Sigh

 

[Gerudo_King]

Oh whoops haha I'm stupid there is no down throw I got my Doc mixed up with my Mario now I feel rather dumb lol

 

[Horbie]

So I just pulled off what may have been the coolest combo I've ever done with Mario, and I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on whether or not it actually all connected.

Mario vs Kirby on Dreamland.
Kirby ended the combo with somewhere around 116%, but I have no idea at what % he started. And I'm not totally positive of the end % cause this was the final stock.

On the left side of DL taking Kirby off of, then below, and then above the stage.
Up Tilt -> Up Tilt -> Up air -> Down Air -> Down Air -> Up B to ledge (which carried Kirby up) -> fall off ledge jump Back Air -> Kirby Death off the side


It started with Down Air -> Up Tilt -> Up Tilt which I promptly dropped, but he didn't react quickly enough, so I just Up Tilted again. So Up Tilt was stale, and I'm not sure if maybe that had something to do with it.

 

[Cedricwa]

Does anyone have any tips for Z canceling Mario's short hop dair upair and short hop upair upair? I can never get the timing right when the upair comes out so close to the ground.

 

[Fafthefaf]

I honestly have no idea if this is relevant nowadays, but you can actually angle Mario's(and Luigi's) up-B. I found if you hold the analog stick diagonally he'll go farther, but not that high. If you hold straight up before doing it, he'll go more upward than forward. It's most noticeable on Dreamland. You can get to the top platform of Dreamland when you hold the stick upward. I'm sure people have used this technique all the time, though.

 

[Cedricwa]

I honestly have no idea if this is relevant nowadays, but you can actually angle Mario's(and Luigi's) up-B. I found if you hold the analog stick diagonally he'll go farther, but not that high. If you hold straight up before doing it, he'll go more upward than forward. It's most noticeable on Dreamland. You can get to the top platform of Dreamland when you hold the stick upward. I'm sure people have used this technique all the time, though.

Yeah it's pretty known. Falcon can angle his too, but I think his always goes the same height even when you angle it

 

[Deleted member]

i'll be starting a super mario video series on youtube! in which i'll demonstrate a variety of combos, techniques, etc., to help players improve!

super mario video series