Southwest [Mar 28, 2015]Aftershock! Axe, Zero, Dabuz, Junebug (Arlington, TX)

UltimateRazer

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I felt like mine weren't too malicious but some others were lool. Anyways, I can see now that it will stick with 2 stock with or without discussion so it doesn't matter anymore.

For discussion on stages, can we discuss having 5 neutrals instead of only 3? Town and City & Lylat can easily be starters. Why aren't Delfino, Castle Siege, and Lylat counterpicks? They were all CP's in Brawl and haven't changed. The Lylat "glitch" existed in Brawl as well except you had landing lag. In this game, it just literally cancels it out. Just react to it.
 

Espy Rose

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Yeah guys, Razer's being pretty collected about this. Give him a break.
Still ain't going tho. :applejack:
 

Infinitysmash

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Hey again guys!

Thank you for the support from those of you who have shown it; good luck to those of you who do attend and for those of you who opt not to I wish you luck and well-being for that weekend.

We have a few more good surprises planned for this event, so keep your eyes on this thread and on Facebook for more details. We don't pull punches with our surprises, so expect the normal KO-punch level that we always deliver :-)
 

Blitzus

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While I might not enter sm4sh, under the possibility that Mewtwo is released at that point, will he be legal?

Furthermore, why is Yoshi's Melee not included in PM? Is it the tether thing?
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Probably has more to do with stage size or stage layout similarities, than Randall-Tether issue. Although I think it's a tad unfair that smaller stages get the shaft when we have quite a few large stages legal (or certain boundaries on medium-small stages being large, like FoD ceiling). Starters list is fine, not much room for improvement there besides individual stage buffs/changes like making DP less funky.

Ideally I would swap WW and Yoshi Melee, but that's my personal preference and probably bias for having amazing Yoshi's Melee characters. The upper platform on WW irks me somehow. Teams are not good on Yoshi's, but I think FoD and WW are pretty borderline in teams anyways.

I can't complain that much since we don't have worse stages legal like Dracula or Skyloft. Getting those correct is way more of a blessing than the minor inconvenience of not having Yoshi Melee for Singles (when they somehow don't ban it :( )
 
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PlateProp

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Skyworld legal, but not yoshi's story?!

wuuuuuuuut

Doesnt skyworld have ledge glitches too atm?
 

DMG

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DMG#931
For pm stage list. Why not just us paragon. Nobody had any problems with that.
Where IS the Paragon stage list? I can hardly find info about it besides challonge bracket/top 8 results posted elsewhere.

Nvm, had to find a link on the Paragon site. Their starter list was a bit stacked for BF/FoD/Yoshi layout. GHZ should easily be a starter over FoD or Yoshi's. Their CP list would be perfect if GHZ was put to starter and 1 pulled back, I don't think we have to have Norfair, Skyworld, and other huge stages on to have viable choices but just opinions mayne
 
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jbandrew

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Why is the TX scene being cancerous towards it's own big tournament? It doesn't reflect well upon any of you. The rules don't seem like anything out of the ordinary to me.

I will be going.
 

Dru2

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While I might not enter sm4sh, under the possibility that Mewtwo is released at that point, will he be legal?
Seconding this. I've heard from people that since he's DLC, Mewtwo will be banned in a lot of tournaments. I'd love to be able to use him, though.
 
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-Fatality-

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Here's a potential smash 4 stage list you guys could use. 1-2-1 Striking for game 1.
Starters:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town & City

Counterpicks:

Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Omega Stages

1 Ban for game 2 and beyond, banning FD will also ban Omega Stages and vice-versa.
You can't go to a stage you've previously won on in a set.

Kongo Jungle isn't included because that stage is pretty wack, Duck Hunt isn't included because as far as most matchups are concerned, it's basically yet another FD, albeit even bigger and a lot crazier, and the tree on the left side of the stage can enable abusive camping strats.

Regardless of what rules you guys use, I'm pretty excited about this, and will definitely try to bring some of my Georgia homies with me for smash bros if I can make it to this.
 
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Jrugs

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not that it matters but 2 stock is pretty much the standard in MD/VA.
Also nintendo built this game from the ground up to not be what you want it to be

:p
 

eet

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Louisiana is coming, at least some melee peeps :). Others are looking at going but kinda on the fence.

also lol, why is houston so salty about 2 stocks. get gud scrubs ;)
 
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Oracle

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For those that haven't seen, PREREGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN! Simply add all the events you want to enter to your cart and check out. There will be a shipping fee of $25, which is the venue fee. Also, VENUE FEE WILL INCREASE TO $35 ON MARCH 7TH! Its easier for us if you register early and you save $10, so do it today!
 

silverscope13x

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I also want to point out that in the rules section, it says that these are not the final rulesets. I have no idea where you guys are getting the idea that these rulesets are finalized 2 months before the tournament. The stagelist in particular is something that hasn't really been worked on; its just a placeholder i copied from our last shockwave. There will be more discussion on stages in the upcoming weeks
I have no problem with the rules. I think 2 stock, 6 minutes is fine. 3 stock takes too long.
 

ENCOREY

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So EVO rules as of now are 2 stock 5 minutes with custom moves. Will custom move sets be legal for Aftershock?

Also can spectators come and watch for free? I work tourney weekend so participating would only result in a forfeit.

So EVO rules as of now are 2 stock 5 minutes with custom moves. Will custom move sets be legal for Aftershock?
Nvm, I saw the facebook thread.
 
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Overswarm

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also 2 stock = :(

I keep looking for travel opportunities but two stock is just so silly
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Is your issue actually with 2 stock by itself, or people lowering the timer for 2 stock matches? I don't think the format has to be considered spoiled based on 5 or 6 min timers: reducing the stock count but keeping the timer the same is something that would probably catch on if people weren't spending so much effort on customs or other stuff atm.

I don't care about stock count very much, since at the end of the day you can craft most stock counts from like 1-5 into a competitive format (within reason).
 
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Overswarm

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The best stock count is 99. The second best is the closest you can get while still having a decent timer. We've run 8 minute timer for over a decade, 3 stock 8 minutes fits cleanly into a tournament. 3 stock = win. 2 stock is lame.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
99 is only the best if you're in theory land or want to additionally and extensively test how much endurance players have. Even without time constraints, we would not run 99 stock because that extreme endurance skill is something we're not trying to test in competitive play. You could easily achieve a statistically insignificant amount of variance between players with just 20 stocks or something. You'd probably only marginally improve on reducing variance, while introducing negative factors or skills not deemed worth testing if you get into those really high counts.


Again though, to your point we have only kept 8 minutes relatively the same, not stock counts. Modifying stock counts to match the game seems like a wiser decision than changing the timer (unless god forbid we find out that we *should* use 10 minutes for 3 or 4 stocks, bleh).


Smash 4 is in a weird sweetspot. Ideally, we'd be running this game with 3 stock and no rage + naturally buffed kill potential or approaching potential for most of the cast and everyone would be happy. I don't have anything strongly against the argument that more stocks tends to smooth out "unexpected" or varying results between players (when we're talking about reasonable stock counts), but I find it odd that people abruptly stop that train right at 3 stocks for this game. I would ideally try 2 stock 8 min if there were concerns about timeouts at 3 stock 8 min, since we had a similar sentiment occasionally in Brawl with the proposed 10 minute timer and additional rules like Air time, Ground time, etc. Otherwise, I'd entirely agree 3 stocks is better for basically everyone sans the stream monsters/spectators that might bemoan the fact it is not as fast as Melee. The game is so new though, I don't see much harm in experimenting with stock changes since it's usually way better to explore and try new smash ideas early in a game vs later. Same with customs: I'm glad people are taking the plunge now instead of waiting 1-2 years and asking for a trial.


Many events have the time and the potential to run 4 stock events (apparently we can't even run 3 stock across the US for anything at and above state/regional size, all the 2 stock 5/6 minute events do no favors towards the 2 stock format), which should no doubt be considered "better" than 3 stock events under that argument, yet no one advocates for that. It's usually a bunch of people riding that argument without any actual ideological adherence to what is being said, just to get the same format that Brawl had. I find it incredibly disingenuous and almost as bad as when the stock count debate boils down to primarily "Well I like this more", "No I like this more" , "2 stock sucks" , "3 stock is boring and too long" etc. Where no one presents ideas or reasoning that isn't strictly one-liner opinion based.


I'm not accusing you of that, but oh my lord it gets bad. You can smell that garbage from a mile away once you ask them to actually explain something in their own words. It's a wonder anything gets accomplished in Smash 4 for rules or community consensus issues when the people around this game seem so toxic and unable to communicate like decent human beings.


I'm hoping something shows up that can reconcile the desire and concern of players, tourney organizers, and viewers. There doesn't seem to be a single format that comes across perfectly, there's always 1 or 2 groups unsatisfied with what is proposed. A lot of players are rallying behind 2 stock now, but I'm not sure they understand the possible consequences by accepting 5-6 min timers as well.
 
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Strong Badam

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3 stock becomes viable if you do things like Bo3 finals and Bo1 for R1 winners/R1 losers bracket. Bo1 is kind of stupid because of double blinds and lack of CPs, so most people would prefer 2-stock for that reason.
I've played 3 stock Smash 4 before and obviously I felt it helped determine the better player more, as one would expect, but the game's pacing is unacceptable for multi-game tournaments. A Smash 4-only national would be able to run 3-stock tournaments, Round Robin Pools, etc. with absolutely no trouble and be a great experience, but the community isn't where it was in 2008/2009 where Brawl's standard was set, in an era of division between the smash communities. It's hard for me and other high-profile TOs to take people who have never run large multi-game tournaments seriously when they argue for 3 stock and say they ran great 3-stock Smash 4-only tournaments in their basement or at their college. Smash 4's community (as a whole) is focused on co-existence, which is the best plan for long-term growth for both Smash 4 and other Smash games.

I actually wish people would give 3-stock Melee a go (it worked fine in PM) but it's hard to teach dinosaurs new tricks.

Anyway Sethlon and I are goin in in Teams at this :yeahboi:
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
Yeah it's getting harder and harder to run Smash events along-side other stuff, we take so long. I don't think we can sacrifice as much as people demand from us: if 2 stock 5 min format is all we can manage to stay in the "cool club" with other games, I'm not sure that's worth it. Might just tell people to move back to Grandpa Melee until FGC/more events ask us to also cut that one down.
 

Overswarm

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Smash events shouldn't be hosted with other games. Including other smash games. A giant neon sign that says "bad tournament" is a banner that says "Smash 64/Melee/PM/Brawl/Smash4!". Yeah, they're great individually, but they suck together. A tournament with bountiful setups, tons of friendlies, and great side events like crew battles or low tier or FFA or 4v4 or a money match stage or the like turns into a mess when other games are added.
 

pootTheBox

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Speaking as a melee dinosaur (hate that term and the clowns who say it) I have always been bothered by 4 stocks. In '04 with my other scrub homes we played 5 stocks. Going to 4 stock tournaments never made sense to me when we play best of odd number of games (bo3 bo5). I am not sure if I'd be opposed to 3 stock melee
 

silverscope13x

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2 stock, 6 minutes is perfect for Smash 4. At least in my opinion. The few tournaments I've been to that did 3/8 took forever. We were there until 2 in the morning most of the time. #aintnobodygottimeforthat
 

The_Jiggernaut

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For Smash 4, you guys really need to move away from only 3 starter stages. Striking from only 3 stages is just silly, as it gives an extreme advantage to the winner of a Rock Paper Scissors match. In many cases, it's equivalent to the player striking second to just picking the stage from the list. It would actually be more fair if you had the starter stage list on random. (PS I don't do that either. Random stage is awful for a ton of reasons, but striking from 3 is slightly more awful)

I understand that it's difficult to have 5 starters with your current list, but that's just another reason to shy away from being somehow more ultra-conservitive than Apex. If you really don't want to have Lylat on your stagelist, add Halberd as your 5th starter. If people don't like playing on it for their first match, they can just strike it.
 

Strong Badam

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Smash events shouldn't be hosted with other games. Including other smash games. A giant neon sign that says "bad tournament" is a banner that says "Smash 64/Melee/PM/Brawl/Smash4!". Yeah, they're great individually, but they suck together. A tournament with bountiful setups, tons of friendlies, and great side events like crew battles or low tier or FFA or 4v4 or a money match stage or the like turns into a mess when other games are added.
I guess you'll never find a good big tournament to attend then. The community is open-minded and enjoy playing multiple Smash games because we're not "most recent Smash" players, we're actually Smash players. You don't really fit in with the community's ideals with that attitude.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
For Smash 4, you guys really need to move away from only 3 starter stages. Striking from only 3 stages is just silly, as it gives an extreme advantage to the winner of a Rock Paper Scissors match. In many cases, it's equivalent to the player striking second to just picking the stage from the list. It would actually be more fair if you had the starter stage list on random. (PS I don't do that either. Random stage is awful for a ton of reasons, but striking from 3 is slightly more awful)

I understand that it's difficult to have 5 starters with your current list, but that's just another reason to shy away from being somehow more ultra-conservitive than Apex. If you really don't want to have Lylat on your stagelist, add Halberd as your 5th starter. If people don't like playing on it for their first match, they can just strike it.

Random is a worse option that striking, period. Players should get as much input as possible on what stage Game 1 goes to, so even striking on the limited 3 stage starter list is way better. Choosing stage for Game 1 should never be a dice roll.
 
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Overswarm

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I guess you'll never find a good big tournament to attend then. The community is open-minded and enjoy playing multiple Smash games because we're not "most recent Smash" players, we're actually Smash players. You don't really fit in with the community's ideals with that attitude.
I likely won't -- most larger tournaments have been of lesser quality as time has gone by because of the increase in popularity of smash and the increase in games played. Gone are the days of Melee Singles, Doubles, Crew Tournaments, and an 8 man smash 64 side event. :|

Random is a worse option that striking, period. Players should get as much input as possible on what stage Game 1 goes to, so even striking on the limited 3 stage starter list is way better. Choosing stage for Game 1 should never be a dice roll.
This is not true; random is superior to a poorly constructed stage striking list. If your stages are "Good for Diddy A, Good for Diddy B, Good for Shiek A" and you are stage striking in a Diddy vs. Sheik matchup, random gives an advantage to Diddy 66% of the time while stage striking gives an advantage to Diddy 100% of the time. In this case random is superior. This is often the case with 3 and 5 stage starter lists.
 
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Oracle

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For Smash 4, you guys really need to move away from only 3 starter stages. Striking from only 3 stages is just silly, as it gives an extreme advantage to the winner of a Rock Paper Scissors match. In many cases, it's equivalent to the player striking second to just picking the stage from the list. It would actually be more fair if you had the starter stage list on random. (PS I don't do that either. Random stage is awful for a ton of reasons, but striking from 3 is slightly more awful)

I understand that it's difficult to have 5 starters with your current list, but that's just another reason to shy away from being somehow more ultra-conservitive than Apex. If you really don't want to have Lylat on your stagelist, add Halberd as your 5th starter. If people don't like playing on it for their first match, they can just strike it.
I havent updated the rules yet, but we'll be using the Evo ruleset, which has lylat cruise amd Town and city as additional starters
 

DMG

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DMG#931
This is not true; random is superior to a poorly constructed stage striking list. If your stages are "Good for Diddy A, Good for Diddy B, Good for Shiek A" and you are stage striking in a Diddy vs. Sheik matchup, random gives an advantage to Diddy 66% of the time while stage striking gives an advantage to Diddy 100% of the time. In this case random is superior. This is often the case with 3 and 5 stage starter lists.
That still holds true for many MU's when the stage list is split between equal small, equal large, and something medium or standard like BF. If Diddy prefers the smaller stages + BF, he will start off with an advantage no matter if the stage list were 3 or 9 (assuming stages retained parity, and that similar sizes or layouts grant similar advantages/disadvantages to characters). If BF was considered the mildest disadvantage for the opponent to deal with, each Game 1 after striking would probably still start on BF from 3 to 9. PM could probably address that with more medium variety, other Smash games don't seem as lucky for legal stage possibilities.


For that specific scenario, what if the advantages were more along the lines of "Strong Diddy advantage, Mild Diddy Advantage, Mild Sheik advantage"? If the middle stage gives you a MU that's no worse than 6:4, that's something decent and reliable people can play. Year after year, everyone knows you strike those choices and get to the Mild Diddy one. If you use random instead, your sets and the MU can vary quite a bit based off a dice roll. Smashers would rather accept disadvantages in that difficulty category, even stemming from bad TO/stage lists, than roll the dice. Random does no favors towards reliability or player choice, even if the player choices are already artificially lowered to a subpar level.


Although having fewer stages on starters tends to be stifling in cases where MU's otherwise would have more equitable stages out there to play the MU on, than whatever the arbitrary 3/5 are. If Smash 4 is really this limited on legal stages, I'd probably just have them all as starters, especially if it seems to help other chars vs the top tier nonsense right now.
 
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Overswarm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

I dislike random, but I dislike bad stage striking lists more. They're harder to create, but more important. I shed a tear every time I see "Oh, we use Battlefield, Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination, and Lylat Cruise". It's like a giant red flag for a TO.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

I dislike random, but I dislike bad stage striking lists more. They're harder to create, but more important. I shed a tear every time I see "Oh, we use Battlefield, Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination, and Lylat Cruise". It's like a giant red flag for a TO.
I'm about to propose a 9-starter stagelist (11 total) for my region, so I'm curious to know what sort of starter list you'd prefer to the standard "FD,BF,SV,T&C,LC."

This is the starter list I am about to propose, do you think this would be a more appropriate Starter list for tournaments?

Final Destination/Omegas
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Skyloft

I feel it has a good mix of static and dynamic stages, allowing players to strike out all touring stages if they have a personal thing against them, but also allowing others to strike out all the completely static stages if they so desire. The stages included as counterpicks are Kongo Jungle 64 and Castle Siege. I'll answer why we don't include other stages, but I'd rather that not be the focus of the discussion.
 
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Oracle

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Zero and Dabuz are confirmed for Aftershock! Prereg today so you can come face off against 1st and 2nd at apex! Also as a reminder that the venue fee increases on March 7th at midnight and registration ENDS on March 15th, so preregister asap! www.tourneylocator.com/prereg
 
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