Making Characters Play to their Gameplay Styles

[Saikyoshi]

Oh god, this. Like, I'd be perfectly cool with trying Project M if they'd stop screwing with Lucario and just give him actual Pokémon moves. For one thing, his old Aura mechanic was based on the move Reversal, which made some degree of sense for Lucario to have as it is one of the moves he learns.

And if you have to completely redo his moveset compared to Brawl for some reason: That leaping uppercut he does for Up Smash really ought to be his Dash Attack, to better represent Sky Uppercut as depicted in various Pokémon media. Neutral Aerial shouldn't be that stupid Tatsumaki Sempuukyaku ripoff because Lucario doesn't even learn Spin Kick. Aerial Side Special? I agree that a throw is better than what Brawl did, but honestly Lucario shouldn't just spin and toss the foe downwards. He should grab the foe, hold them below him, and plummet straight down while Force Palming them in midair, since we see Lucario perform an aerial Force Palm that way in the Pokémon anime. Jab combo probably ought to be Bone Rush, since the somewhat unique way Lucario executes that move (forming a bone-shaped staff out of aura to strike the foe with) is one of his defining traits in his anime and game representation.

Overall, Brawl Lucario was okay but kind of not faithful to canon. P:M Lucario? What do you think you're doing?! That's not Lucario in any way other than character model!

/rant

I honestly think someone should make an Akuma vertex hack for him so the model actually matches the moveset. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's bothered.

 

[Veggi]

I want every character to be reworked like Wario and Sonic in Project M. They're beautiful.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Oh god, this. Like, I'd be perfectly cool with trying Project M if they'd stop screwing with Lucario and just give him actual Pokémon moves. For one thing, his old Aura mechanic was based on the move Reversal, which made some degree of sense for Lucario to have as it is one of the moves he learns.

And if you have to completely redo his moveset compared to Brawl for some reason: That leaping uppercut he does for Up Smash really ought to be his Dash Attack, to better represent Sky Uppercut as depicted in various Pokémon media. Neutral Aerial shouldn't be that stupid Tatsumaki Sempuukyaku ripoff because Lucario doesn't even learn Spin Kick. Aerial Side Special? I agree that a throw is better than what Brawl did, but honestly Lucario shouldn't just spin and toss the foe downwards. He should grab the foe, hold them below him, and plummet straight down while Force Palming them in midair, since we see Lucario perform an aerial Force Palm that way in the Pokémon anime. Jab combo probably ought to be Bone Rush, since the somewhat unique way Lucario executes that move (forming a bone-shaped staff out of aura to strike the foe with) is one of his defining traits in his anime and game representation.

Overall, Brawl Lucario was okay but kind of not faithful to canon. P:M Lucario? What do you think you're doing?! That's not Lucario in any way other than character model!

/rant

Both Brawl and Project M messed up Lucario but gave him something. The reality is that Lucario is just a fighting/steel type Pokemon with no real interesting characteristics that could fit in Smash Bros. The aura is used to sense things, how could they Brawlify that?
Brawl takes aura and makes it a strength
Project M takes the fact that he is a fighting type and makes him a fighter.

Both did him real justice, in very different ways.

idohoweverstillhatehowheplaysinprojectmitssounninterestingandnotreallysmash

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Both Brawl and Project M messed up Lucario but gave him something. The reality is that Lucario is just a fighting/steel type Pokemon with no real interesting characteristics that could fit in Smash Bros. The aura is used to sense things, how could they Brawlify that?
Brawl takes aura and makes it a strength
Project M takes the fact that he is a fighting type and makes him a fighter.

Both did him real justice, in very different ways.

Brawl's aura mechanic is in fact based on one particular move he gets in the Pokémon games: Reversal. Aura is already, in Pokémon canon, the manifestation of one's life force, so combining that with the move Reversal doesn't seem that unreasonable of an interpretation. By comparison, the "Super" mechanic he has in Project M is one that has no bearing on any Pokémon move or mechanic.

As for what they could have given Lucario? An interesting, offensive-based moveset primarily using attacks from his own games. Bone Rush seems like a good choice of jab combo, Low Kick on down tilt (like sweeps in many fighting games, it could knock down foes guaranteed, or pick up foes who are already knocked down), Bullet Punch on forward tilt (flash-steps forward and sucker punches the opponent in front), Sky Uppercut on dash attack, Blaze Kick on up smash, High Jump Kick on forward aerial, Earthquake on down aerial (dives straight down and shakes the ground on landing, hitting everyone nearby), and of course Close Combat for his Final Smash. And those are just examples.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Brawl's aura mechanic is in fact based on one particular move he gets in the Pokémon games: Reversal. Aura is already, in Pokémon canon, the manifestation of one's life force, so combining that with the move Reversal doesn't seem that unreasonable of an interpretation. By comparison, the "Super" mechanic he has in Project M is one that has no bearing on any Pokémon move or mechanic.

As for what they could have given Lucario? An interesting, offensive-based moveset primarily using attacks from his own games. Bone Rush seems like a good choice of jab combo, Low Kick on down tilt (like sweeps in many fighting games, it could knock down foes guaranteed, or pick up foes who are already knocked down), Bullet Punch on forward tilt (flash-steps forward and sucker punches the opponent in front), Sky Uppercut on dash attack, Blaze Kick on up smash, High Jump Kick on forward aerial, Earthquake on down aerial (dives straight down and shakes the ground on landing, hitting everyone nearby), and of course Close Combat for his Final Smash. And those are just examples.

I'm well aware that Aura is based of Reversal, but Pikachu and Jigglypuff don't have all Pokemon moves. Pikachu has quick and electric based moves. Jigglypuff has aerial moves and pounding(if you will) moves. Lucario has close ranged yet somewhat special moves (note how his special attack is higher than his physical attack). Along with that, Lucario's aura represents the will to fight harder. A cool thing to note is how Lucario evolves from friendship and therefore has more will to fight for either a trainer or someone they are close to.

But maybe that's just me overthinking it.

 

[Lozjam]

I agree with the OP mostly..... Though I have to say, Sakurai and his team did Ganondorf so terribly. It is really sad that a 3rd party(Tecmo Koei) did Ganondorf better in Hyrule Warriors than Sakurai and his team did with Ganondorf in Melee in Brawl(Melee I can understand, because it was the only way he could be playable, but Brawl has no excuses).

 

[LeeYawshee]

I agree with the OP mostly..... Though I have to say, Sakurai and his team did Ganondorf so terribly. It is really sad that a 3rd party(Tecmo Koei) did Ganondorf better in Hyrule Warriors than Sakurai and his team did with Ganondorf in Melee in Brawl(Melee I can understand, because it was the only way he could be playable, but Brawl has no excuses).

Well actually, Ganondorf was one of the last few characters made.

Second, Ganondorf represents one thing, SHEER. POWER. The triforce of power to be exact. He did get a few moves changed but not enough, and I get that. But Brawl was painfully rushed to the point where we didn't even get a total of SEVEN characters in. To be even more exact, if they took the time to declonify Ganondorf, we might have not gotten eight characters.

Third, Ganondorf's flame choke (side b) shows one of the things that Ganondorf does the most, choking. When he raises his foe up and looks at them as if they were weakling, it shows how fearless he is and how evil. Ganondorf's moves are all slower (due to armor) but stronger (due to triforce of power) than Captain Falcon. Yes, it sucks that he's a clone, but the team got the essence of Ganondorf's power and evil just right.

Take this from someone who's more excited about Hyrule Warriors and Zelda U than Smash Bros. And I spend too much time on these forums defending Smash 4 and Sakurai.

 

[Lozjam]

Well actually, Ganondorf was one of the last few characters made.

Second, Ganondorf represents one thing, SHEER. POWER. The triforce of power to be exact. He did get a few moves changed but not enough, and I get that. But Brawl was painfully rushed to the point where we didn't even get a total of SEVEN characters in. To be even more exact, if they took the time to declonify Ganondorf, we might have not gotten eight characters.

Third, Ganondorf's flame choke (side b) shows one of the things that Ganondorf does the most, choking. When he raises his foe up and looks at them as if they were weakling, it shows how fearless he is and how evil. Ganondorf's moves are all slower (due to armor) but stronger (due to triforce of power) than Captain Falcon. Yes, it sucks that he's a clone, but the team got the essence of Ganondorf's power and evil just right.

Take this from someone who's more excited about Hyrule Warriors and Zelda U than Smash Bros. And I spend too much time on these forums defending Smash 4 and Sakurai.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love Sakurai, but still. All of Ganondorfs animations are original, why couldn't they make a moveset that was original? Also might I add while Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, he isn't about power remember? Ganondorf is still a thief and that should also be represented. He only uses his pure power as a last resort. Ganondorf likes to hide in the shadows and is a very patient man. He prefers to set out magic and minions to weaken his opponents instead of going head first. Proof. Puppet Ganon, Ghost Ganon, Zant, Possessed Zelda ect. So Ganondorf is not about pure power, Ganon is, but Ganondorf is not. That is something Sakurai clearly missed. Ganondorf's moveset should be a combination of trickery and power. And he should wield a weapon of some sort. Ganondorf despises up close combat, but when he does do it. He has a sword, or a trident or something of the sort.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

I've said before and I'll say it again, originally Ganondorf was a last minute clone in Melee, hence Captain Falcondorf, and when they were doing Brawl they just left him be because some people actually liked his particular moveset, but really he needs his own moveset. Of course the problem is that would make his clone moveset go away which a number of people, myself included, enjoyed playing, so to me the obvious answer is take someone like Mach Rider who'd make more sense as a Captain Falcon clone, and give the old Ganondorf moveset and attributes to him, then give Ganondorf his brand new sparkly moveset with gorgeous rock-god hair. This way Ganondorf has his new moves, his old moves still exist, and we've got another new character to toy around with at minimal production cost.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Oh don't get me wrong. I love Sakurai, but still. All of Ganondorfs animations are original, why couldn't they make a moveset that was original? Also might I add while Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, he isn't about power remember? Ganondorf is still a thief and that should also be represented. He only uses his pure power as a last resort. Ganondorf likes to hide in the shadows and is a very patient man. He prefers to set out magic and minions to weaken his opponents instead of going head first. Proof. Puppet Ganon, Ghost Ganon, Zant, Possessed Zelda ect. So Ganondorf is not about pure power, Ganon is, but Ganondorf is not. That is something Sakurai clearly missed.

Not every incarnation of Ganondorf is a thief, Brawl's Ganondorf was someone who survived execution. Also, every villain is essentially the "camp and wait" type. In most Mario games, Bowser just jumps and throws fireballs at Mario. But we know he's super strong, we also know that Ganondorf is incredibly powerful and that's what is used to represent him. One thing you are right about is the lack of magic, Ganondorf is a Gerudo Wizard, where is his powerful magic?

Many people will talk about how he needs a sword but I'd rather he not.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I'll never understand why Lucario = Ryu from street fighter in PM when Mario and Luigi are pretty clearly more similar to Ryu and Ken.

The spinning kick, the slow, large linear projectile, chaining attacks, and uppercut to name a few. His unique Magic Series mechanic is taken directly from more traditional fighting games, as well as his super meter.

-

Preserving who a character is while maintaining their enjoyability in Super Smash Bros. isn't always possible. How "obvious" or easy it would be to create moveset with their existing attributes is irrelevant. As Saikyoshi pointed out, the mechanics of PKMN Trainer not only neuter the character as a whole but take away a lot of the fun by forcing you to change Pokemon (either through their stamina or death) leaving no room for strategy. That, on top of having to learn three separate characters, made him an extremely niche pick and there are few top players for PKMN Trainer (Reflex, from my state included).

Bowser is another example. Bowser is inherently badass, but you take what seems obvious to incorporate (his flame breath, ground pound, slashing) and it still leaves and unfun character. Same goes with Sonic - he's fast, has a homing attack and uses spins. All obvious assets and he's still a dull character to many. What's more important than the obviousness of their moveset is its execution, their neutral game, and combo ability.

 

[Lozjam]

Not every incarnation of Ganondorf is a thief, Brawl's Ganondorf was someone who survived execution. Also, every villain is essentially the "camp and wait" type. In most Mario games, Bowser just jumps and throws fireballs at Mario. But we know he's super strong, we also know that Ganondorf is incredibly powerful and that's what is used to represent him. One thing you are right about is the lack of magic, Ganondorf is a Gerudo Wizard, where is his powerful magic?

Many people will talk about how he needs a sword but I'd rather he not.

Brawl/TP Ganondorf is still a thief, he is still OoT Ganondorf. And he is less willing to fight than he once was because he learned his lesson. But more importantly, Ganondorf was more willing to let Zant do his job than coming out in the open. We can still see that Ganondorf hates to fight even more in his boss fight. He does not fight Link head on. First he lets Puppet Zelda loose, then he lets the triforce of power take over with Ganon, then he fights Link on horseback, not facing him head on, and then and only then will he face Link directly. As I said, it's because Ganondorf hates fighting head on(btw Bowser enjoys facing Mario head on, that is apparent in the Mario Rpg's and the galaxy games). Sakurai did Ganondorf's character very wrong in Brawl, and this needs to be fixed in smash 4(hopefully we will find out on the 14th.)

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Brawl/TP Ganondorf is still a thief, he is still OoT Ganondorf. And he is less willing to fight than he once was because he learned his lesson. But more importantly, Ganondorf was more willing to let Zant do his job than coming out in the open. We can still see that Ganondorf hates to fight even more in his boss fight. He does not fight Link head on. First he lets Puppet Zelda loose, then he lets the triforce of power take over with Ganon, then he fights Link on horseback, not facing him head on, and then and only then will he face Link directly. As I said, it's because Ganondorf hates fighting head on(btw Bowser enjoys facing Mario head on, that is apparent in the Mario Rpg's and the galaxy games). Sakurai did Ganondorf's character very wrong in Brawl, and this needs to be fixed in smash 4(hopefully we will find out on the 14th.)

Y'know there's one particular Ganondorf signature move that's not appeared yet, and when Sakurai announced the Boomerang as an item that gets stronger the more you catch and rethrow it, I got a big hope that the 'Deadman's Volley' would appear as an attack. A large projectile which starts off slow and weak, but can be hit to send it back, and if Ganondorf strikes it again it goes faster and gets stronger each time...

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Y'know there's one particular Ganondorf signature move that's not appeared yet, and when Sakurai announced the Boomerang as an item that gets stronger the more you catch and rethrow it, I got a big hope that the 'Deadman's Volley' would appear as an attack. A large projectile which starts off slow and weak, but can be hit to send it back, and if Ganondorf strikes it again it goes faster and gets stronger each time...

You shouldn't make a move be a potential asset to an opponent. Unless the returning attack doesn't affect Ganondorf, then that is a bad idea. This attack needs to be strong regardless. Ganondorf's weakest area is his ability to approach and Deadman's Volley can help in that respect in a fashion similar to how Mario's fireball is properly used. Ideally Warlock Punch would be dropped in favor of this as Ganondorf already has a finisher with his up-tilt. It's moronic that he even has a finisher since, lacking speed and safe landing spacing, he has zero shield pressure to begin with.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Brawl/TP Ganondorf is still a thief, he is still OoT Ganondorf. And he is less willing to fight than he once was because he learned his lesson. But more importantly, Ganondorf was more willing to let Zant do his job than coming out in the open. We can still see that Ganondorf hates to fight even more in his boss fight. He does not fight Link head on. First he lets Puppet Zelda loose, then he lets the triforce of power take over with Ganon, then he fights Link on horseback, not facing him head on, and then and only then will he face Link directly. As I said, it's because Ganondorf hates fighting head on(btw Bowser enjoys facing Mario head on, that is apparent in the Mario Rpg's and the galaxy games). Sakurai did Ganondorf's character very wrong in Brawl, and this needs to be fixed in smash 4(hopefully we will find out on the 14th.)

I did not really realize that, and that's a shame since Twilight Princess is my favorite. Looks like I have some replaying to do. My apologies for the incorrect counter arguments.

 

[Shiliski]

I think that Pokemon Trainer's fatigue system wasn't really grounded in any aspect of Pokemon. I think it was more of artificially persuading the player to use the mechanic that WAS grounded in an aspect of Pokemon.

If they made each Pokemon dramatically more or less effective at certain aspects of the same match, there would probably be more switches. (Recovery, getting KOs, damage racking, edgeguarding, ect.) Making sure that's done correctly is really hard though.

They tried doing this with Zelda and Sheik, where Zelda was supposed to be for scoring KOs while Sheik was for racking up damage. Sadly, they couldn't get it right after two whole games.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

You shouldn't make a move be a potential asset to an opponent. Unless the returning attack doesn't affect Ganondorf, then that is a bad idea. This attack needs to be strong regardless. Ganondorf's weakest area is his ability to approach and Deadman's Volley can help in that respect in a fashion similar to how Mario's fireball is properly used. Ideally Warlock Punch would be dropped in favor of this as Ganondorf already has a finisher with his up-tilt. It's moronic that he even has a finisher since, lacking speed and safe landing spacing, he has zero shield pressure to begin with.

Aaah, but see there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley. Plus, when it's active Ganondorf's special that would normally be the Volley becomes an incredibly fast knockback for it. So it can get extremely powerful and even have a stun effect to help Ganondorf close distance, buuuut with the risk that you yourself can get hit with it. So there's a mind game to play, do you take the hit, dodge it, or try to hit it back at him? If you're Ganondorf, do you bother trying to volley or do you just run and dodge through it to attack? Mayhaps he even has an armored advancing attack like Little Mac to allow him to just blast through it.

 

[Lozjam]

I did not really realize that, and that's a shame since Twilight Princess is my favorite. Looks like I have some replaying to do. My apologies for the incorrect counter arguments.

Nah it's alright. You are a Zelda fan after all. We are cool. I just really hope Ganondorf is properly represented in Smash 4... Kind of like how Sakurai changed Bowsers moveset. I would love for Ganondorf to be my main alongside Link. I hope he isn't the crap of a character he was in Brawl.

 

[ChikoLad]

When it comes to capturing the gameplay styles of origin games in the fighting game scenario in crossover fighters, Smash Bros is good, but I actually feel PS-All Stars did it a lot better. And Super Smash Flash 2 does it really well for it's newcomers, and even adds some nice twists to the veterans (I can't believe Sakurai still hasn't thought to implement Bomb Arrows into Link's playstyle, SSF2 does it so beautifully).

One thing I think Smash REALLY excels at though, is taking characters who didn't really have a defined playstyle, and giving them a Smash moveset that is true to their known character traits and personality. Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, and Rosalina are my favourites in this regard. You can really see how they took some prominent character traits from these three, and used that to make a fighting moveset for them in Smash. It's a harder thing to describe than basing a moveset off of an origin game's mechanics, but I really love it when characters do that.

However, Mega Man and Villager excel at capturing the essence of how their original games play, I've always taken note of that. Sonic does this pretty well too.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Aaah, but see there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley.

Who cares if there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley in Zelda games?

>> Smash Bros
>> Canon

Pick one.

Aaah, but see there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley. Plus, when it's active Ganondorf's special that would normally be the Volley becomes an incredibly fast knockback for it. So it can get extremely powerful and even have a stun effect to help Ganondorf close distance, buuuut with the risk that you yourself can get hit with it. So there's a mind game to play, do you take the hit, dodge it, or try to hit it back at him? If you're Ganondorf, do you bother trying to volley or do you just run and dodge through it to attack? Mayhaps he even has an armored advancing attack like Little Mac to allow him to just blast through it.

The entire idea is to give Ganondorf a means to approach. If they're hitting back the projectile you lose that window and have to focus on returning the damn Volley. You're just lost in your fantasy. If you implement this idea, Ganondorf becomes degenerate in that the Volley will continue to bounce back and forth with endless pressure on the enemy to knock it back, of which Ganondorf has the built in upper hand. Say it breaks through their defenses most of the time - with the strong knockback it gives there will be no reason to not ever constantly use this attack because you can always prime the attack while they are in hitstun.

 

[LeeYawshee]

When it comes to capturing the gameplay styles of origin games in the fighting game scenario in crossover fighters, Smash Bros is good, but I actually feel PS-All Stars did it a lot better. And Super Smash Flash 2 does it really well for it's newcomers, and even adds some nice twists to the veterans (I can't believe Sakurai still hasn't thought to implement Bomb Arrows into Link's playstyle, SSF2 does it so beautifully).

One thing I think Smash REALLY excels at though, is taking characters who didn't really have a defined playstyle, and giving them a Smash moveset that is true to their known character traits and personality. Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, and Rosalina are my favourites in this regard. You can really see how they took some prominent character traits from these three, and used that to make a fighting moveset for them in Smash. It's a harder thing to describe than basing a moveset off of an origin game's mechanics, but I really love it when characters do that.

However, Mega Man and Villager excel at capturing the essence of how their original games play, I've always taken note of that. Sonic does this pretty well too.

I love how Captain Falcon and Rosalina were done.
F-Zero is all about racing, being fast, and not stopping. Captain Falcon's fighting style was that in both Melee and 64 (debatebly in Brawl). Rosalina is from space and manipulates it so she keeps the space between her Luma how she wants it. Ice Climbers are different.
Falcon Punch was a simple touch that gave the character his manly charm.

Nah it's alright. You are a Zelda fan after all. We are cool. I just really hope Ganondorf is properly represented in Smash 4... Kind of like how Sakurai changed Bowsers moveset. I would love for Ganondorf to be my main alongside Link. I hope he isn't the crap of a character he was in Brawl.

If they change Ganondorf, I hope they keep a few of his moves like side special, down air, and side tilt (I know dair isn't original but it feels so right). Side special is just so him, side tilt is a move that pushes his opponents away (he used it in the final boss fight) and it represents what you stated.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Who cares if there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley in Zelda games?

>> Smash Bros
>> Canon

Pick one.



The entire idea is to give Ganondorf a means to approach. If they're hitting back the projectile you lose that window and have to focus on returning the damn Volley. You're just lost in your fantasy. If you implement this idea, Ganondorf becomes degenerate in that the Volley will continue to bounce back and forth with endless pressure on the enemy to knock it back, of which Ganondorf has the built in upper hand. Say it breaks through their defenses most of the time - with the strong knockback it gives there will be no reason to not ever constantly use this attack because you can always prime the attack while they are in hitstun.

Well of course if they roll through the attack, Ganondorf is suddenly wide open for an attack. See it's this sort of thing that has to be considered for every possible move. Also you'd have to consider what would happen if it hit Fox's shield or Palutena's reflect.

Someone had suggested a 'running grab' move as a special, where Ganondorf just charges forward with a hand out, and it he grabs your character it transitions into a choking move, but if he misses he loses balance at the end of the motion putting him at risk. Another suggestion was taken from a bit of Demise with the idea of Ganondorf being able to take a sword, ram it into the stage, and then remotely blast lightning from above into it, sort of like a long distance Thunder attack from Pikachu as a means of corralling your opponents. Given that Villager can do something similar with his trees and Snake could do his remote explosive charges, it's an interesting idea.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Who cares if there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley in Zelda games?

>> Smash Bros
>> Canon

Pick one.



The entire idea is to give Ganondorf a means to approach. If they're hitting back the projectile you lose that window and have to focus on returning the damn Volley. You're just lost in your fantasy. If you implement this idea, Ganondorf becomes degenerate in that the Volley will continue to bounce back and forth with endless pressure on the enemy to knock it back, of which Ganondorf has the built in upper hand. Say it breaks through their defenses most of the time - with the strong knockback it gives there will be no reason to not ever constantly use this attack because you can always prime the attack while they are in hitstun.

What Ganondorf would need if he wants to have an approach tactic despite having a projectile like that is a move that has intangibility or invincibility on startup. Throw Deadman's Volley > opponent hits it back > Ganondorf suddenly closes the gap using this theoretical new intangibility+dash move and punishes the attack they used to reflect Deadman's Volley. So there'd be mindgames on both sides. You could simply bash Deadman's Volley back and forth, you could look as if you're about to reflect Deadman's Volley, then go for close-quarters instead, you could look like you're about to go on the attack and then reflect it instead.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Well of course if they roll through the attack, Ganondorf is suddenly wide open for an attack.

How would Ganondorf be wide open for an attack? Almost universally, rolling into the opponent results in punishment. Ganondorf is actually suddenly wide open to commence a beat down because the beginning and ending frames of a roll are vulnerable. Only a few characters might escape because of how fast their rolls are (D3 and Mac being the two that come to mind. Maybe Lucario).

Also you'd have to consider what would happen if it hit Fox's shield or Palutena's reflect.

If Ganondorf gets a fast way to repel the Volley, it will eventually break Fox's shine. Yes, Fox's shine has a damage limit. From what I've heard, if Fox can no longer jump cancel his shine then he has to commit until it's broken.

Someone had suggested a 'running grab' move as a special, where Ganondorf just charges forward with a hand out, and it he grabs your character it transitions into a choking move, but if he misses he loses balance at the end of the motion putting him at risk. Another suggestion was taken from a bit of Demise with the idea of Ganondorf being able to take a sword, ram it into the stage, and then remotely blast lightning from above into it, sort of like a long distance Thunder attack from Pikachu as a means of corralling your opponents. Given that Villager can do something similar with his trees and Snake could do his remote explosive charges, it's an interesting idea.

Is just missing while in animation not enough to put him at risk? It's too similar to what already exists. If he's just running around while keeping his grab box up then that's kindof stupid since only the initial frames of a grab have armor and anyone can just hit him out of it. The current side special already has a gap closer and fake-out property along with the ability to tech chase.

The Demise Sword idea is pretty good from a stylistic and fun point of view but doesn't do anything to fix his problems.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

What Ganondorf would need if he wants to have an approach tactic despite having a projectile like that is a move that has intangibility or invincibility on startup. Throw Deadman's Volley > opponent hits it back > Ganondorf suddenly closes the gap using this theoretical new intangibility+dash move and punishes the attack they used to reflect Deadman's Volley. So there'd be mindgames on both sides. You could simply bash Deadman's Volley back and forth, you could look as if you're about to reflect Deadman's Volley, then go for close-quarters instead, you could look like you're about to go on the attack and then reflect it instead.

My thoughts exactly, and if the Volley attack lingers it throws danger into dodging forwards and backwards. It'd be fairly painful to dodge your opponent's attack only to end up rolling yourself back into the path of your own attack!

But anyhoo, I was saying the idea of this topic was making character play more like the thematic basis of their games themselves in addition to their own unique quirks, I hadn't meant to get so deep into one character's moves really.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

How would Ganondorf be wide open for an attack? Almost universally, rolling into the opponent results in punishment. Ganondorf is actually suddenly wide open to commence a beat down because the beginning and ending frames of a roll are vulnerable. Only a few characters might escape because of how fast their rolls are (D3 and Mac being the two that come to mind. Maybe Lucario).



If Ganondorf gets a fast way to repel the Volley, it will eventually break Fox's shine. Yes, Fox's shine has a damage limit. From what I've heard, if Fox can no longer jump cancel his shine then he has to commit until it's broken.



Is just missing while in animation not enough to put him at risk? It's too similar to what already exists. If he's just running around while keeping his grab box up then that's kindof stupid since only the initial frames of a grab have armor and anyone can just hit him out of it. The current side special already has a gap closer and fake-out property along with the ability to tech chase.

The Demise Sword idea is pretty good from a stylistic and fun point of view but doesn't do anything to fix his problems.

The running-grab is a trap move, similar to Wario's Bite, where if he touches you with it, you're caught. Super armor on the front-half of him as well, and I'm thinking it should be like King Dedede's launch and drop, where you can get out of it but waiting too long to do so causes you to take even longer than if you'd just waited.

 

[ChikoLad]

I love how Captain Falcon and Rosalina were done.
F-Zero is all about racing, being fast, and not stopping. Captain Falcon's fighting style was that in both Melee and 64 (debatebly in Brawl). Rosalina is from space and manipulates it so she keeps the space between her Luma how she wants it. Ice Climbers are different.
Falcon Punch was a simple touch that gave the character his manly charm.

To add to that, Captain Falcon had his bounty hunter status and strong physique capitalised on, among other things, to form his moveset. It's perfectly believable for him to be able to fight like he does. Even the Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick aren't entirely baseless - I always thought they were inspired by how he looks like a cheesy, American comic book superhero, specifically the Falcon emblem on his helmet.

And with Rosalina, they took her space goddess status (which effectively means she can believably do pretty much anything they can come up with), her reserved, graceful, yet tough nature, and her bond with the Lumas, and made a believable moveset out of that. I also love how she's animated, she's by far the best animated character in the game. It reflects her puppet master archetype as a fighter, since every movement she makes has a fine focal point, and the rest of her body follows that focal point in her movements. Almost as if she's a puppet on a string.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

To add to that, Captain Falcon had his bounty hunter status and strong physique capitalised on, among other things, to form his moveset. It's perfectly believable for him to be able to fight like he does. Even the Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick aren't entirely baseless - I always thought they were inspired by how he looks like a cheesy, American comic book superhero, specifically the Falcon emblem on his helmet.

And with Rosalina, they took her space goddess status (which effectively means she can believably do pretty much anything they can come up with), her reserved, graceful, yet tough nature, and her bond with the Lumas, and made a believable moveset out of that. I also love how she's animated, she's by far the best animated character in the game. It reflects her puppet master archetype as a fighter, since every movement she makes has a fine focal point, and the rest of her body follows that focal point in her movements. Almost as if she's a puppet on a string.

Just a fun side note, Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick were inspired by the old TV series Kamen Rider. You can see Rider Punch and Rider Kick here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=419BrrzsXc0

 

[Shiliski]

Who cares if there's always been a risk with Deadman's Volley in Zelda games?

>> Smash Bros
>> Canon

Pick one.

Imagine Sonic without his spin-dash or spin attack. Imagine Mario without a fireball. Imagine Samus without missiles or charge shot. It's not like Canon and Smash Bros. are mutually exclusive.

Ganondorf's attack wouldn't be the first projectile in the game to ever get reflected. I don't think we should have every single character be able to reflect it, but it would be really strange if Link couldn't.

The entire idea is to give Ganondorf a means to approach. If they're hitting back the projectile you lose that window and have to focus on returning the damn Volley. You're just lost in your fantasy. If you implement this idea, Ganondorf becomes degenerate in that the Volley will continue to bounce back and forth with endless pressure on the enemy to knock it back, of which Ganondorf has the built in upper hand. Say it breaks through their defenses most of the time - with the strong knockback it gives there will be no reason to not ever constantly use this attack because you can always prime the attack while they are in hitstun.

So just make it so that it's punishable if Ganon uses it normally (unless he wins the game of Deadman's Volley), but it works very effectively when the opponent is in hitstun. Bam. It's situational and fits in well with the rest of his slow-but-powerful moveset. It's not a strong combo starter but it'd be a good linker.

Say Ganondorf actually used it while the opponent was not in hitstun, and the opponent played Deadmans' Volley and lost. A strong knockback means very little combo ability, which not only limits its use but also goes against how it works in game. In game you hit Ganondorf with the Volley, and once you hit him you close the distance and start beating him up. It's not a finisher, but it sets him up to be finished. It'd be better if the Volley had heavy damage and hit stun (that gets worse the more the volley goes back and forth) but very little knockback, allowing Ganondorf to approach and start a combo (if he has any in Smash 4) on his opponent. That would not only be more balanced but actually gets the feel right.

Thinking of Ganondorf as a combo-based character who has good linkers and finishers but limited options with starters would suit his character well. He would have to maneuver and position carefully until he got in the right position, but once he's in he could severely punish his opponent. The only real problem with that design is: if he doesn't have any safe approaches, he could be insanely weak for the same reason that Meta Knight is strong: Instead of having every move be a good approach, no move would be a good approach. One way to cover for that weakness is to give him a special that is safe but has good range, possibly based on the trident toss he has in LttP.

I think Ganondorf actually could work really well as a non-clone with just a few tweaks, which is part of why I think it's such a shame that he's been a clone for 2 games in a row.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ganondorf's attack wouldn't be the first projectile in the game to ever get reflected. I don't think we should have every single character be able to reflect it, but it would be really strange if Link couldn't.

Say Ganondorf actually used it while the opponent was not in hitstun, and the opponent played Deadmans' Volley and lost. A strong knockback means very little combo ability, which not only limits its use but also goes against how it works in game. In game you hit Ganondorf with the Volley, and once you hit him you close the distance and start beating him up. It's not a finisher, but it sets him up to be finished. It'd be better if the Volley had heavy damage and hit stun (that gets worse the more the volley goes back and forth) but very little knockback, allowing Ganondorf to approach and start a combo (if he has any in Smash 4) on his opponent. That would not only be more balanced but actually gets the feel right.

Thinking of Ganondorf as a combo-based character who has good linkers and finishers but limited options with starters would suit his character well. He would have to maneuver and position carefully until he got in the right position, but once he's in he could severely punish his opponent. The only real problem with that design is: if he doesn't have any safe approaches, he could be insanely weak for the same reason that Meta Knight is strong: Instead of having every move be a good approach, no move would be a good approach. One way to cover for that weakness is to give him a special that is safe but has good range, possibly based on the trident toss he has in LttP.

I think Ganondorf actually could work really well as a non-clone with just a few tweaks, which is part of why I think it's such a shame that he's been a clone for 2 games in a row.

Any character with a sufficiently disjointed hitbox should be able to reflect it, at varying angles depending on the angle of the attack. Much like the interaction between Samus's Charge Shot and Pit's Upperdash Arm. So basically, things like Zero Suit Samus's FTilt, Samus's NAir, or Sonic's DTilt would be able to reflect it. Possibly Mario's and DK's FAir as well, just to be crazy cool.

That said, I think using the projectile as a sort of pressure might be good too. If they roll around it, they're open. If they play Deadman's Volley for a while and you eventually decide to quit playing, leap over it and whack them, that should be an option too. Or start a game of Deadman's Volley at dangerously close range, wait for them to reflect it, and immediately go for Flame Choke (just put intangibility or invincibility frames for a short time at the very beginning of the Flame Choke dash).

 

[LeeYawshee]

To add to that, Captain Falcon had his bounty hunter status and strong physique capitalised on, among other things, to form his moveset. It's perfectly believable for him to be able to fight like he does. Even the Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick aren't entirely baseless - I always thought they were inspired by how he looks like a cheesy, American comic book superhero, specifically the Falcon emblem on his helmet.

And with Rosalina, they took her space goddess status (which effectively means she can believably do pretty much anything they can come up with), her reserved, graceful, yet tough nature, and her bond with the Lumas, and made a believable moveset out of that. I also love how she's animated, she's by far the best animated character in the game. It reflects her puppet master archetype as a fighter, since every movement she makes has a fine focal point, and the rest of her body follows that focal point in her movements. Almost as if she's a puppet on a string.

Who I'm curious about is the Ice Climbers, all I got is that their movesets are based off actual ice climbers and how it takes two to get far in mountain climbing?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Who I'm curious about is the Ice Climbers, all I got is that their movesets are based off actual ice climbers and how it takes two to get far in mountain climbing?

Well, in the game itself you need pixel-precision jumping and deadly accurate timing if you're going to get up the mountain, and generally the game is indeed MUCH easier with a second player... aside from those mountains with narrow stretches where you end up hindering one another.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

What Ganondorf would need if he wants to have an approach tactic despite having a projectile like that is a move that has intangibility or invincibility on startup. Throw Deadman's Volley > opponent hits it back > Ganondorf suddenly closes the gap using this theoretical new intangibility+dash move and punishes the attack they used to reflect Deadman's Volley. So there'd be mindgames on both sides. You could simply bash Deadman's Volley back and forth, you could look as if you're about to reflect Deadman's Volley, then go for close-quarters instead, you could look like you're about to go on the attack and then reflect it instead.

What you are suggsting here is the PM version of Lucario's Double Team. There is no mindgame here. There's a startup, distance, and then frames that can be acted out of. In conjunction with the Volley, you're already away from the opponent, so they will be expecting either the volley or the gap closure both of which would be easy to space for as there is no reoom for anything else. A move like PM's Double Team is useful mainly because of Lucario's Magic Series mechanics of which Ganondorf lacks and probably shouldn't have to begin with.

The way you guys propose Deadman's Volley is as a move in which he either wins or loses with (which is inherently stupid - a move should advance your character, not throw out a 50/50 chance of success). Otherwise, if the move has too much going for it you have a character over centralized on this one move because there would be no reason to not use it because it is both a homing and power shot which Ganondorf has the upperhand on. The fact that you can't clank with the move or possibly spotdodge it to avoid because it's slow moving is overkill. To somehow add another layer to his style, you've proposed throwing in a move which doesn't foster mindgames at all and is possibly broken on its own like most free teleport style moves are. Weak.

Imagine Sonic without his spin-dash or spin attack. Imagine Mario without a fireball. Imagine Samus without missiles or charge shot. It's not like Canon and Smash Bros. are mutually exclusive.

How does that have anything to do with Super Smash Bros. not respecting canon? I'm not saying it's free license to do whatever, but the goal in translating the characters into fighters game isn't to completely respect what's canon. Just look at Ness. Hell, look to what I was actually answering before trying to make some point.

Ganondorf's attack wouldn't be the first projectile in the game to ever get reflected. I don't think we should have every single character be able to reflect it, but it would be really strange if Link couldn't.

And what kind of criteria would prevent a character from being unable to reflect it? It's like you're looming over an arbitrary distinction.

So just make it so that it's punishable if Ganon uses it normally (unless he wins the game of Deadman's Volley), but it works very effectively when the opponent is in hitstun. Bam. It's situational and fits in well with the rest of his slow-but-powerful moveset. It's not a strong combo starter but it'd be a good linker.

Say Ganondorf actually used it while the opponent was not in hitstun, and the opponent played Deadmans' Volley and lost. A strong knockback means very little combo ability, which not only limits its use but also goes against how it works in game. In game you hit Ganondorf with the Volley, and once you hit him you close the distance and start beating him up. It's not a finisher, but it sets him up to be finished. It'd be better if the Volley had heavy damage and hit stun (that gets worse the more the volley goes back and forth) but very little knockback, allowing Ganondorf to approach and start a combo (if he has any in Smash 4) on his opponent. That would not only be more balanced but actually gets the feel right.

What you're proposing is that the players play a smaller game to see who gets free damage on each other in the match. Introducing a smaller game doesn't advance the character and if they have the natural advantage, then it will become overcentralizing and not fun. I don't think you're seeing what's going on here: You could give this version of Dead Man's Volley to any character and they would not be a better character as a result. Some forced epic Smash Bros. style of Pong isn't a character asset. In fact, they would probably be worse since you would need to remove one of their other real options to make room for it. Also, relegating Volley to a follow-up attack is kind of stupid because it does nothing to alleviate the rest of his problems.

To conclude, Ganondorf is always going to be bad if he can't start combos. Not using Deadman's Volley as an approach option and instead as a game of who gets to dish out free punishment next is mega-********. He needs a way to make opponents think on how to approach him and a projectile that can be reflected doesn't do that. In an engine like Smash 4 he's going to be mediocre at best with the buffs. He needs a way to move in on opponents more safely on top of anything. He already doesn't benefit from armor or mobility at all.

 

[Dinoman96]

Why is Mario a combo character instead of a jumping technique character? Why can't any Mario characters do damage by jumping on people's heads? Did they just almost completely make up DK's moveset? Where's the roll attack?

In all fairness, Mario is supposed to be the game's balanced character, much like Street Fighter's Ryu. And he was good at that, until Brawl messed things up.

That's the thing that bothers me about FLUDD. Mario is supposed to be the easy to use, average, middle-ground character, and he's given one of the most bizarre, unorthodox specials in the entire game.

Though to be fair about DK, there wasn't a whole lot he could do in DKC besides jumping, slamming the ground (Which is DK's down special in Smash anyway), and rolling, which has now been incorporated into his moveset in Sm4sh.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Deadman's Volley translated directly into Smash would be terrible. Giving Ganondorf a projectile based off of it isn't a bad idea at all, however, but it would have to be implemented well. Allowing Ganon to hit it back if it's reflected by an actual reflector move would be better than allowing all characters to hit it back with A moves, but if it's going to end up being a move that stops play and begins a pong minigame then it's only there for the sake of canon, rather than healthy gameplay, which isn't good design.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Well, we've already seen that Gordos can be reflected by anything with a sufficiently disjointed hitbox. Presumably, if they went far enough then Dedede would be able to hit them back, and again we'd have this minigame of pong going. It also looks like this might be possible with Samus's Charge Shot, if its strange behaviour with Pit's Upperdash Arm is anything to go by.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Well, we've already seen that Gordos can be reflected by anything with a sufficiently disjointed hitbox. Presumably, if they went far enough then Dedede would be able to hit them back, and again we'd have this minigame of pong going. It also looks like this might be possible with Samus's Charge Shot, if its strange behaviour with Pit's Upperdash Arm is anything to go by.

Gordo's aren't a homing attack that as proposed by the rest of you to be able to easily be reflected. There's always priority and clanking involved with Gordos. You're drawing comparisons with a very different move along the lines of one whose sole would-be purpose is to initiate some stupid Pong type thing.

Also, I think regardless of whether or not the enemy can readily return the volley, Ganondorf should have the option to return the volley at a current or lower trajectory speed. Now that's a real mindgame.

 

[Shiliski]

How does that have anything to do with Super Smash Bros. not respecting canon? I'm not saying it's free license to do whatever, but the goal in translating the characters into fighters game isn't to completely respect what's canon. Just look at Ness. Hell, look to what I was actually answering before trying to make some point.

It's not really my job to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant something other than what you said.

And what kind of criteria would prevent a character from being unable to reflect it? It's like you're looming over an arbitrary distinction.

Honestly? I didn't bother to think out the details for that because in the end this debate will affect nothing about the final game of Smash 4. Someone else said disjointed hitbox, and that makes sense to me. It could also make sense to say "only people who have natural reflectors like Fox can do it, except that Link and T. Link can also do it because Master Sword." It might also make sense to say "everyone with a sword can reflect it because reasons." However, I'd probably go with the disjointed hitbox idea because it seems to lead to better things.

What you're proposing is that the players play a smaller game to see who gets free damage on each other in the match. Introducing a smaller game doesn't advance the character and if they have the natural advantage, then it will become overcentralizing and not fun. I don't think you're seeing what's going on here: You could give this version of Dead Man's Volley to any character and they would not be a better character as a result. Some forced epic Smash Bros. style of Pong isn't a character asset. In fact, they would probably be worse since you would need to remove one of their other real options to make room for it. Also, relegating Volley to a follow-up attack is kind of stupid because it does nothing to alleviate the rest of his problems.
To conclude, Ganondorf is always going to be bad if he can't start combos. Not using Deadman's Volley as an approach option and instead as a game of who gets to dish out free punishment next is mega-********. He needs a way to make opponents think on how to approach him and a projectile that can be reflected doesn't do that. In an engine like Smash 4 he's going to be mediocre at best with the buffs. He needs a way to move in on opponents more safely on top of anything. He already doesn't benefit from armor or mobility at all.

Why are you pretending that this kind of mechanic isn't in the game already? I know for a fact that it existed in Melee, and it may have existed in 64 (I don't know because I didn't play it very much). Fox dittos can already do this. You know what else? It has never over-centralized the game, because the game is designed so that it's just not practical. It can potentially break the game if you create something like a black-hole glitch, but it's hard to do that on accident. Projectiles already can be reflected back and forth like that. It's nothing new. The only thing that would be new is that some characters who can't normally reflect projectiles are now able to.

You're acting like reflecting projectiles is something new, strange, and unfamiliar. It isn't, and has never been. We are well versed in how such things will play out.

How such "games" as you put it work is often as follows:

Fox shoots his Blaster at Zelda.
Zelda uses Nayru's Love and knocks it towards Fox.
Fox uses his reflector to bounce it back to Zelda.
The projectile fades because it has a limited lifespan, which puts a hard limit on how long this kind of thing can go on.
This whole thing took a few seconds and required some very fast reflexes and good reads.

In order to take something like, say, Aura Sphere and make it more Ganon-like, you'd have to do things like...

... increase its lifespan, maybe to about 4-5 seconds or so.
... give it decent speed and start-up time so that the opponent has to predict when Ganon will do this.
... make it so that if it is hit by a disjointed attack box (intersects with an attack box but not a hit box) it will bounce back.
... possibly put a modifier that increases the size and damage on it every time it gets hit back.
... give it decent hitstun or knock-up so that Ganon can actually approach with something if he hits.

The chances of any projectile actually becoming a game of dead-man's volley will be low to begin with. This is Smash, not LoZ, so in the end it's going to be a quick affair that's over in the blink of an eye, and not the slow-as-heck game of tennis that you see in most LoZ games.

The fact that the projectile is fast means that the opponent will have to at least see it coming to some extent. Consider the following:

If Marth and Ganondorf are on opposite sides of the screen, Marth has very little reason to use any of his melee attacks because he should be thinking about approach. This is Yomi Layer 0.
Now, Ganondorf knows that Marth has no real reason to throw out random Melee attacks, so Ganondorf feels safe in using DMV (Deadman's Volley). This is Yomi Layer 1.
Marth actually knows that Ganondorf has DMV, because he isn't a scrub, so he considers using either ftilt or Counter when he sees Ganondorf going for the DMV. This is Yomi Layer 2.
Ganondorf could see Marth spamming Counter, or maybe he tried DMV before and noticed that Marth is actually good with Counter, so he doesn't use it. This is Yomi Layer 3.
This loops back to Yomi Layer 0, where Marth is free to approach since Ganondorf isn't using DMV.

That is actually "thinking about how to approach Ganondorf". Marth has to consider his options, because Ganondorf's projectile isn't some magical steaming pile of crap that will automatically destroy him every time he uses it. It's a projectile like any other, and it just has a simple flaw that actually isn't super easy to exploit. Smash isn't a single player game, and there's no real need to ensure that the other player can always hit back Ganondorf's projectile. It's a game based upon reads and knowledge of MUs, so any games of DMV should be based upon that.

I think the projectile you're imagining is way different from the projectile I'm imagining. The projectile I'm imagining is "slighly different than Samus's Charge Beam in that it can be reflected by certain attacks, probably having to do with disjointed hitboxes." You seem to be imagining something like "Okay Ganondorf used his move that causes all fighting to stop because we need to play a mini-game for some reason.".

EDIT: You'd have to actually break a lot of rules about Smash in order to actually force it to be a game of DMV every single time that Ganondorf uses it.

1) You'd have to make it a homing attack, which would be... the only homing attack in the game that doesn't come from an item? Check me if I'm wrong on that, but there's no reason it can't just be a horizontal projectile like nearly every other projectile. Maybe if you tilt the stick up or down during start-up you can "aim" it a bit the same way you can aim Zelda's f-tilt, but even that doesn't seem necessary.

2) You'd have to make it so that dodging/rolling wouldn't work, and honestly you can dodge it in canon so I'm not sure what you'd even be accomplishing here?

3) You'd have to make it so that the game knows who Ganondorf is trying to aim at for 4 person FFAs. Good luck solving that problem in a way that is intuitive and fast.

4) The target would have to already know which attacks will reflect it and which ones wont, which involves either a tutorial in the middle of the match (yuck), practice from their part (you can't guarantee that except in high level play), or direct knowledge implanting via mind control.


In short you'd have to try really really hard, and break the game in fundamental ways, in order to make this somehow become the nightmare of "we're not actually smashing, we're just playing DMV a lot".

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Gordo's aren't a homing attack that as proposed by the rest of you to be able to easily be reflected. There's always priority and clanking involved with Gordos. You're drawing comparisons with a very different move along the lines of one whose sole would-be purpose is to initiate some stupid Pong type thing.

Also, I think regardless of whether or not the enemy can readily return the volley, Ganondorf should have the option to return the volley at a current or lower trajectory speed. Now that's a real mindgame.

I wasn't thinking of making Deadman's Volley a homing projectile. I completely forgot it did that. I figured it would just go in a straight line, and Ganondorf's moveset would be specifically designed so that one of his hitboxes on some move or other can launch the Deadman's Volley in any given direction, giving him a distinct advantage when playing Deadman's Volley with his opponent and making it far better for Ganondorf than just a 50-50. What he would use it for, then, is a sort of stage control approach. By returning the Deadman's Volley at the correct angle, Ganondorf would be able to force the foe's options, minimizing the risk of Ganondorf making the wrong read. Essentially, it can be used to force the foe into a particular choice, giving Ganondorf perhaps a 50-50 read that, if he's correct, starts a highly-damaging combo. And if they somehow fail to dodge or reflect it, Ganondorf gets to start a highly-damaging combo. This means that a Ganondorf player has to learn how other characters work, too, so that he can use factors like stage positioning to force them into exactly the wrong situation with Deadman's Volley and capitalize on their disadvantage.

 

[Khao]

Honestly, if they give Ganondorf a projectile, it shouldn't be inherently made to be reflected, if anything, he should just be able to casually shoot it back if a character that normally can reflect projectiles does so. And yeah, I say not even Link's sword should be able to reflect that thing, Link's not meant to reflect projectiles in Smash, giving him the ability for a single freaking move just as a nod to the Zelda series is not cool in my book.

References are cool, but not if you have to sacrifice gameplay and/or consistency.