Making Characters Play to their Gameplay Styles

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Howdies folks.

Something I've always been fond of in the Smash games is how Sakurai and co. manage to wrangle a character's game series into their gameplay. I don't mean just items or moves you've seen them use in the past, but I've always liked the idea that whatever strategy suited their original game best, would suit the way you control them in Smash the best.

For example, with Captain Olimar it's all about carefully managing and preserving your Pikmin, and multi-tasking as best you can with what you've got. For Little Mac, it's all about staying low and moving faster than your opponents, for Marth it's all planning your attacks ahead of time to take advantage of terrain and combat abilities...

We're seeing that more with the new characters, such as the Villager being able to customize the stage (with trees) and cram his/her pockets full of stuff, and Robin being all about item management. And the Wii Fit Trainer is all about slowly snapping someone's spine in half while speaking to them in a soothing voice. "Now lift your legs so your toes touch the floor above your head..."

So with that in mind, I was thinking of some of my most wanted character bobbling about and how their own games would play into them. Chibi-Robo's fairly obvious, with a need to recharge him during play (a nice 'balance' for him if he has electrified or long-hitting moves), Lip needing to swap characters and objects around on the stage, and summoning up tiles with the added danger that the more tiles she has in play, the more easily she can be launched (just as more tiles in Panel de Pon mean greater risk but greater combo potential), and even Dr. Kawashima using brain teasers and quick memory challenges on players to force them to use their brains during a fight (such as launching several projectiles, only one of which is real, if it adds up correctly or some such.)

Anyone else spot any of this gameplay/fighting style sync up? Or mayhaps you've had a character idea where their style is largely influenced by the style of their title?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I feel as if Smash has always tried to stay true to each character's gameplay....

 

[Hayzie]

Neat.

 

[RODO]

Sooo we watched Yoshiller's videos did we?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Sooo we watched Yoshiller's videos did we?

I haven't seen it, care to link it?

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'd like to point to Super Smash Flash 2 as an example of how this can be done for a lot of characters. I'm not saying I want these in SSB4, I'm just giving examples.

Black Mage was a highly destructive class in Final Fantasy I, but with horrible physical stats. In SSF2, he has a unique Super Smash attack when fully charged and generally high offense, but lightweight and cursed with an extremely punishable recovery.

Sora was a master at moving around opponents and trapping them in endless strings of attacks, but his strikes were weak and battles often took a while. In SSF2, he's the easiest character to combo with and has a large number of cancels and follow-ups, but almost no KO power and has to rely on high damage alone.

Naruto overwhelmed his opponents with sheer numbers with the Multi Shadow Clone Jutsu. In SSF2, he's a trap master who can zone his opponents from just about anywhere with his special moves, all of which use his shadow clones, so he can trick them into close range and finish them off with the risky but powerful Rasengan.

You can make anyone feel like their original self if you put your mind to it when designing them.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

I'd like to point to Super Smash Flash 2 as an example of how this can be done for a lot of characters. I'm not saying I want these in SSB4, I'm just giving examples.

Black Mage was a highly destructive class in Final Fantasy I, but with horrible physical stats. In SSF2, he has a unique Super Smash attack when fully charged and generally high offense, but lightweight and cursed with an extremely punishable recovery.

Sora was a master at moving around opponents and trapping them in endless strings of attacks, but his strikes were weak and battles often took a while. In SSF2, he's the easiest character to combo with and has a large number of cancels and follow-ups, but almost no KO power and has to rely on high damage alone.

Naruto overwhelmed his opponents with sheer numbers with the Multi Shadow Clone Jutsu. In SSF2, he's a trap master who can zone his opponents from just about anywhere with his special moves, all of which use his shadow clones, so he can trick them into close range and finish them off with the risky but powerful Rasengan.

You can make anyone feel like their original self if you put your mind to it when designing them.

Ay, although as I was pointing out it's not just making the characters feel like themselves, but actually making them feel like their games as a whole. For example in Brawl, playing as Pokemon Trainer meant balancing your Pokemon and swapping between them as if you were actually playing Pokemon.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Ay, although as I was pointing out it's not just making the characters feel like themselves, but actually making them feel like their games as a whole. For example in Brawl, playing as Pokemon Trainer meant balancing your Pokemon and swapping between them as if you were actually playing Pokemon.

Pokémon Trainer is an example of how NOT to do it. It's pretty much universally agreed that he was one of the most poorly-designed characters in the game.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Pokémon Trainer is an example of how NOT to do it. It's pretty much universally agreed that he was one of the most poorly-designed characters in the game.

Well I'll disagree, but it was only meant as an example as showing how a character could comprise the gameplay of their series in addition to their own personal style.

 

[Khao]

I always liked to imagine that if Isaac made it in, he would use his Djinn to prepare a super powerful attack, but sacrifice power for a while after performing it. The he'd have to wait for his Djinn to charge up once again to get his power back and start using them again.

That's kinda how things work in his game, you can have the Djinn either set, or standby. When set, they increase the character's power, and can be used as an attack which will change them to standby mode.

When in standby, they won't increase the character's power, but will be able to be summoned as a sort-of super move.

Then they have to recover for a while until they go to set once again, which means the character won't be able to use the Djinn's power, and he would be relatively weakened until it finally recovered and he went back to full power.

A Smash Bros. Djinn could easily work the same way, put it as a down+B move, and you could switch between both states. One of them is the standard, and the other decreases your power while allowing you to use a powerful move.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

I always liked to imagine that if Isaac made it in, he would use his Djinn to prepare a super powerful attack, but sacrifice power for a while after performing it. The he'd have to wait for his Djinn to charge up once again to get his power back and start using them again.

In my mind Djinn would make for fantastic items, similar to something like the Dragoon or the Daybreak, where suddenly a number of them would appear, hopping around on the stage, and whoever gets three of them first triggers a summon from one of the games, based on which ones they grabbed.

 

[D-idara]

Pokémon Trainer is an example of how NOT to do it. It's pretty much universally agreed that he was one of the most poorly-designed characters in the game.

Pokemon Trainer is an example of how to do it, he was one of the best-designed characters in the game, he just needed a few tweaks. And he represents the series perfectly, specially competitive Pokemon, since there's a whole lot of switching there.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Pokemon Trainer is an example of how to do it, he was one of the best-designed characters in the game, he just needed a few tweaks. And he represents the series perfectly, specially competitive Pokemon, since there's a whole lot of switching there.

It was very, very ill-suited for Smash, though, if you ask me.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

It was very, very ill-suited for Smash, though, if you ask me.

True, but the spirit was right though the implementation was not.

 

[Veggi]

I think that a lot of the characters that were released in Brawl and Smash 4 were pretty well made. They kind of represented what they were like in their games. For most characters released in Smash 64 and Melee the move sets were terrible. Why is Mario a combo character instead of a jumping technique character? Why can't any Mario characters do damage by jumping on people's heads? Why doesn't Bowser have almost any moves from his games? Did they just almost completely make up DK's moveset? Where's the roll attack? Where's the barrel cannon? Where's anything?

Is that even Ganondorf?

Why is Charizard so horrible in the air? He's a flying type. How can Jigglypuff fly? Why does Rest kill people instead of healing her? What about Lucario makes him heavy? He's not heavy in the games and he doesn't have good health or defenses? Why doesn't Extreme Speed do damage?

Marth is a spacing character and doesn't use any more strategy than any other character but I'll let it slide because he kinda does play like a swordsman. Why is Ike slow when in his game he's fast? Why did Ness and Lucas steal moves instead of using the other moves they have?

But there are some positives: For having nothing to go by almost at all, Fox and Captain Falcon were pretty well made. Even if it's stupid that Fox has a low air speed and can't charge his blaster. Like you said Olimar and the Smash 4 characters are all cool. Snake has some cool stuff even though he was limited by the "no guns" thing. Sonic has some bogus moves, but I feel like they got his "feel" okay.

Sakurai did really well with every character he created.

Pikachu was done pretty well but I think he should have more hitstun on the moves that involve electricity. Yoshi was done pretty well even though some of his moves need to be modified to be more useful. He plays like I would hope Yoshi would. If his grab moves were better, he would be awesome! Game & Watch is good too! He's very quirky.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

In my mind Djinn would make for fantastic items, similar to something like the Dragoon or the Daybreak, where suddenly a number of them would appear, hopping around on the stage, and whoever gets three of them first triggers a summon from one of the games, based on which ones they grabbed.

I was thinking similarly, but instead it'd be about getting as many as you wanted in the right combinations (1-4 for all elements, but also 1 Fire 1 Earth for Zagan, 1 Fire 1 Wind for Megaera, etc.) and then pressing the Grab button to unleash the summon.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

What about Lucario makes him heavy? He's not heavy in the games and he doesn't have good health or defenses?

He's a Steel type.

 

[Veggi]

He's a Steel type.

That ran through my head, but I guess it assumes almost all Smash moves are normal type instead of fighting type. It really doesn't make any sense considering that being Steel type doesn't inherently make a Pokemon bulky or heavy. Lucario canonically is neither of those.

 

[Golden Gallade]

What about Lucario makes him heavy? He's not heavy in the games and he doesn't have good health or defenses?

Lucario is 119lbs, probably heavier then most of the roster.

 

[Veggi]

Lucario is 119lbs, probably heavier then most of the roster.

I actually looked it up and I overestimated Lucario's weight in Brawl from what people have told me. You're totally right. Lucario actually isn't even a heavy character in Brawl. I was wrong.

 

[Big-Cat]

Wow, Algus. Haven't seen you around for years.

Pokemon Trainer is an example of how to do it, he was one of the best-designed characters in the game, he just needed a few tweaks. And he represents the series perfectly, specially competitive Pokemon, since there's a whole lot of switching there.

It doesn't work because it doesn't mesh with Smash's free flow style of gameplay. Having to stop and switch for a long period of time (relatively speaking) does not work in this game. That was likely a reason why transformations were cut for Smash 4.

Talking about emulating the character's game source, that's harder than you think depending on the character and the concept may manifest in different ways. Mario has always been the middle-of-the-road character so basing him loosely on that and Ryu makes sense. Likewise, Luigi is Ken.

Normals can be one of the hardest things to come up for a character really.

 

[pichupal]

For characters, Robin and Villager were already mentioned, but Villager can use the Shovel when an enemy is close and instead of planting a sapling he buries the opponent, which is good for combos and reminds me of the pitfall items.

Perhaps this isn't exactly talking about how characters play, but Smash Run does a lot of reflecting the original games mechanics in its design.

Gastly, for example, is a ghost pokemon, and doesn't take damage from normal or fighting attacks in pokemon. In Smash Run, physical attacks (including the Hammer), don't hurt it. Buzzy Beetles, which are invulnerable to fireballs in Mario games, don't take damage from fire, along with Chandelure that has the Flash Fire ability that absorbs fire attacks. In a very not Smash-like manner, touching the Orne from Kid Icarus: Uprising will instantly kill you, but not like in the 999% damage and lots of knockback off the screen, but just kill you.

I want to put more research into this when I actually get the game, because the effort they put into Smash Run seems amazing.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Wow, Algus. Haven't seen you around for years.

It doesn't work because it doesn't mesh with Smash's free flow style of gameplay. Having to stop and switch for a long period of time (relatively speaking) does not work in this game. That was likely a reason why transformations were cut for Smash 4.

Talking about emulating the character's game source, that's harder than you think depending on the character and the concept may manifest in different ways. Mario has always been the middle-of-the-road character so basing him loosely on that and Ryu makes sense. Likewise, Luigi is Ken.

Normals can be one of the hardest things to come up for a character really.

Yeah, every few years I awake from my slumber when Smash shows up and stagger back here, blind, confused, and slightly stinky. But glad to see the place is looking mighty swanky and well organized! Also very pleased to see everyone here having proper discussions with actual words and sentences rather than some places.

And you're certainly right about it being harder to emulate the game source. Sadly Pokemon trainer didn't really work out, but it's a concept I really like in Smash. I always find that if I've been playing Fire Emblem, for example, I always play Ike and Marth better until I'm playing something else. I wonder if my months and months playing Wii Fit will give me a keen edge over others when I play as Wii Fit Trainer...

 

[Big-Cat]

Pokemon Trainer was like trying to put in a Marvel vs. Capcom team into one character. One of the chief issues is that the Pokemon Trainer didn't have a fluid means for switching Pokemon mid-combo.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Pokemon Trainer was like trying to put in a Marvel vs. Capcom team into one character. One of the chief issues is that the Pokemon Trainer didn't have a fluid means for switching Pokemon mid-combo.

Ay, if he'd had a near-instantaneous switch it would've been great, but sadly, nope.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Pokemon Trainer was thematically superb and very well designed if the only criteria you judge him by is how well he represented his series. However, as a character in Brawl, he was poorly designed due to forced Pokemon switching upon fainting and the fatigue mechanic - mechanics inspired by the original game, included for the sake of accurate representation, but that should have been scrapped because of how they totally disrupted attempts to use him effectively.
I'd say his inclusion in Brawl is a testament to how accurate representation, while a good thing, should not take priority over creating a good Smash Bros character.

 

[Big-Cat]

There are also different ways to implement the character's core into a fighting game. Mario is the all-around character and is essentially Smash's shoto. Donkey Kong is a big, strong gorilla so he has been implemented with that in mind and now they've added in the roll. The Fire Emblem characters had to be implemented in a way that was adaptable to Smash. Turn based combat, RNG, etc. wouldn't have fit.

Heck, look at Rosalina. She is the one character as a puppeteer and was probably an ingenius way of putting in Galaxy's gameplay in as the Luma was your motion sensor.

In short, the games serve as inspiration for how to implement them, but are not necessarily required to be in completely.

Capt. Ganondorf shouldn't have happened in Brawl though.

 

[Veggi]

I think that Pokemon Trainer's fatigue system wasn't really grounded in any aspect of Pokemon. I think it was more of artificially persuading the player to use the mechanic that WAS grounded in an aspect of Pokemon.

If they made each Pokemon dramatically more or less effective at certain aspects of the same match, there would probably be more switches. (Recovery, getting KOs, damage racking, edgeguarding, ect.) Making sure that's done correctly is really hard though.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

There are also different ways to implement the character's core into a fighting game. Mario is the all-around character and is essentially Smash's shoto. Donkey Kong is a big, strong gorilla so he has been implemented with that in mind and now they've added in the roll. The Fire Emblem characters had to be implemented in a way that was adaptable to Smash. Turn based combat, RNG, etc. wouldn't have fit.

Heck, look at Rosalina. She is the one character as a puppeteer and was probably an ingenius way of putting in Galaxy's gameplay in as the Luma was your motion sensor.

In short, the games serve as inspiration for how to implement them, but are not necessarily required to be in completely.

Capt. Ganondorf shouldn't have happened in Brawl though.

I think what really brought DK through was the popularity of the Konga games in Japan (Jungle Beat, Donkey Konga, etc.) which gave the big lug a better sense of speed, grace, and rhythm. If you play Jungle Beat, the big guy moves FAST, and bounds off of walls like, well, a speeding gorilla.

And as Veggi's saying (by the bye, REALLY like your avatar) it is exceedingly difficult to figure out the balance for how to do a character like that. A two-in-one like Sheik/Zelda isn't so terribly hard because it's back and forth, but as a designer to sit and think, "okay... so... if they want good defense they need to switch once, but if they suddenly need good recovery again they need to switch twice, and that will takes about... six seconds total... oh boy."

As for Captain Ganondorf... I'd much like to see Ganondorf's clone moveset get transformed over to Mach Rider (who'd make more sense as a Cap'n Clone), and give Ganondorf something nice and new. Mayhaps the Deadman's Volley where you can hit his projectile back for more damage and speed.

 

[Veggi]

Thanks!! I've had people compliment my signature out in the open before, but never my avatar. You're the first! If they balanced the Pokemon better, made switching a little faster, and made switching Pokemon always only take one transformation, Pokemon Trainer may have been a really good design.

Maybe when the player presses Down Special they can hit left to get the Pokemon they last used and right to get the next Pokemon in line.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Thanks!! I've had people compliment my signature out in the open before, but never my avatar. You're the first! If they balanced the Pokemon better, made switching a little faster, and made switching Pokemon always only take one transformation, Pokemon Trainer may have been a really good design.

Maybe when the player presses Down Special they can hit left to get the Pokemon they last used and right to get the next Pokemon in line.

That's an idea.

Actually the time between Pokemon is hardware specific actually, as it's the time it takes to load alternate files. Same for Zelda and Sheik, and Samus and Zero Suit. I believe that's also why Sakurai removed swappable characters this time around. But there's got to be something more to it... perhaps all three of the Pokemon on screen at once, with two acting as support for the third that's in control, and when you swap it changes out who's in the lead... hrm... ...I realize part of the reason I'm thinking like this is I just REALLY like the Triple Finish.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I think that a lot of the characters that were released in Brawl and Smash 4 were pretty well made. They kind of represented what they were like in their games. For most characters released in Smash 64 and Melee the move sets were terrible. Why is Mario a combo character instead of a jumping technique character? Why can't any Mario characters do damage by jumping on people's heads? Why doesn't Bowser have almost any moves from his games? Did they just almost completely make up DK's moveset? Where's the roll attack? Where's the barrel cannon? Where's anything?

Is that even Ganondorf?

Why is Charizard so horrible in the air? He's a flying type. How can Jigglypuff fly? Why does Rest kill people instead of healing her? What about Lucario makes him heavy? He's not heavy in the games and he doesn't have good health or defenses? Why doesn't Extreme Speed do damage?

Marth is a spacing character and doesn't use any more strategy than any other character but I'll let it slide because he kinda does play like a swordsman. Why is Ike slow when in his game he's fast? Why did Ness and Lucas steal moves instead of using the other moves they have?

But there are some positives: For having nothing to go by almost at all, Fox and Captain Falcon were pretty well made. Even if it's stupid that Fox has a low air speed and can't charge his blaster. Like you said Olimar and the Smash 4 characters are all cool. Snake has some cool stuff even though he was limited by the "no guns" thing. Sonic has some bogus moves, but I feel like they got his "feel" okay.

Sakurai did really well with every character he created.

Pikachu was done pretty well but I think he should have more hitstun on the moves that involve electricity. Yoshi was done pretty well even though some of his moves need to be modified to be more useful. He plays like I would hope Yoshi would. If his grab moves were better, he would be awesome! Game & Watch is good too! He's very quirky.

Keep in mind that sometimes the additions to characters in Smash may very well become retroactive canon for the characters, like Fox. He mentioned normally having his Blaster in Adventures, though he was ordered not to take it with him as he was on a strictly peaceful mission. And let's not forget Captain Falcon and the infamous grand finale of his anime.

And I think it's just ridiculous that Game Freak still isn't letting Pikachu learn Skull Bash. Yes, I know it was a TM in G1, that's why he has it. Yes, I know it's completely and utterly useless in the Pokémon games. But you'd think he'd at least have it as an egg move now.

 

[Big-Cat]

An issue with the Pokemon Trainer and transformation characters comes up especially when four players are playing. In addition to the four on point, you have to upload the other eight in a cache. Depending on the 3DS' limitations, that might be difficult to do.

 

[TerumiLOLZ]

It's the little details that count huh? I love it!

 

[Veggi]

Keep in mind that sometimes the additions to characters in Smash may very well become retroactive canon for the characters, like Fox. He mentioned normally having his Blaster in Adventures, though he was ordered not to take it with him as he was on a strictly peaceful mission. And let's not forget Captain Falcon and the infamous grand finale of his anime.

And I think it's just ridiculous that Game Freak still isn't letting Pikachu learn Skull Bash. Yes, I know it was a TM in G1, that's why he has it. Yes, I know it's completely and utterly useless in the Pokémon games. But you'd think he'd at least have it as an egg move now.

Well, Fox having a blaster really isn't that far-fetched considering he's part of sci-fi fantasy and everyone from sci-fi fantasy has a blaster. In Star Fox Assault, his blaster functions like an Arwing blaster and not his Smash blaster. You're right about Falcon though.

I think instead of Game Freak letting Pikachu use Skull Bash they should just take it out of Smash because it's a boring special move that doesn't represent Pikachu.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll never understand why Lucario = Ryu from street fighter in PM when Mario and Luigi are pretty clearly more similar to Ryu and Ken.

 

[Veggi]

I'll never understand why Lucario = Ryu from street fighter in PM when Mario and Luigi are pretty clearly more similar to Ryu and Ken.

I think Lucario is more similar to Gouken than anything. I understand what you mean, but I remember hearing Lucario in Project M was designed by someone who liked Street Fighter or something like that. I could be wrong though.

Also Lucario wasn't in Melee so if Mario was changed to not be like Melee Mario, people would freak lol.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Have I mentioned how much I hate P:M Lucario regardless of which SF character he's modeled after? Because I do. He's just not Lucario anymore.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'll never understand why Lucario = Ryu from street fighter in PM when Mario and Luigi are pretty clearly more similar to Ryu and Ken.

Because Aura Sphere and most Smash fans know nothing of other fighting games. As Veggi said, he resembles Gouken more and that's a stretch.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Have I mentioned how much I hate P:M Lucario regardless of which SF character he's modeled after? Because I do. He's just not Lucario anymore.

Oh god, this. Like, I'd be perfectly cool with trying Project M if they'd stop screwing with Lucario and just give him actual Pokémon moves. For one thing, his old Aura mechanic was based on the move Reversal, which made some degree of sense for Lucario to have as it is one of the moves he learns.

And if you have to completely redo his moveset compared to Brawl for some reason: That leaping uppercut he does for Up Smash really ought to be his Dash Attack, to better represent Sky Uppercut as depicted in various Pokémon media. Neutral Aerial shouldn't be that stupid Tatsumaki Sempuukyaku ripoff because Lucario doesn't even learn Spin Kick. Aerial Side Special? I agree that a throw is better than what Brawl did, but honestly Lucario shouldn't just spin and toss the foe downwards. He should grab the foe, hold them below him, and plummet straight down while Force Palming them in midair, since we see Lucario perform an aerial Force Palm that way in the Pokémon anime. Jab combo probably ought to be Bone Rush, since the somewhat unique way Lucario executes that move (forming a bone-shaped staff out of aura to strike the foe with) is one of his defining traits in his anime and game representation.

Overall, Brawl Lucario was okay but kind of not faithful to canon. P:M Lucario? What do you think you're doing?! That's not Lucario in any way other than character model!

/rant