Making Brawl A Better Spectator Sport

[LiteralGrill]

One of the largest problems I've seen when it comes to complaints against Brawl is "it's boring to watch".

I have read every thread in Brawl Competitive (literally). I've seen so many suggestions made to try and make the game better for spectators, to speed up matches, make the game more exciting, give us more variety.

My largest question here is: why weren't any of them done?!?!?!

Here's a few to list:

1 stock bo7 matches

2 stock bo5 or bo3 matches

Items

1.1 Damage Ratio

Sure some are better then others (by a long shot even for some) but why is it that now when every is saying "Brawl is dying", "it's gonna be dead as soon as Smash 4 comes out", "there's no hope for Brawl", people STILL arren't trying to do things differently to see if the game can have some life?

If a group of dedicated people sat down and started hosting tournaments with rules to make the game better for spectators, could Brawl see some new life? If so, what suggestions would be best for making this possible?

 

[WindMajor]

start with exciting music

 

[LiteralGrill]

start with exciting music

oh you...

Though... heck, it's not a horrible idea

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everyone should play Lucario like Trela.

But otherwise idk I enjoy watching League of Legends even if it can be a bore sometimes, guess it can depend on what is happening.

 

[Djent]

1 stock is fine Bo5, not Bo7. Also 2 stock should stay Bo3. Account for the fact that people will take for ****ing ever to CP.

I'm not sure what 1.1 DR would fix other than some infinites. Items would be interesting, but good luck with that lolol.

 

[tarextherex]

they tried messing with the rules/characters, never worked

biggest problem is the choice of matches to stream that's it. apex 2014 had mostly top mks vs mid-high level players when there was a ton of better matches to choose from. people's misconception about competitive brawl is that mk is op and most people use "cheap" stuff to win. just choose mid-low tier heroes beating random mks to show them mk isn't everything, so they can end up figuring out what is a top mk

 

[SuperSalamence]

Focus more on lower tier characters.

 

[popsofctown]

Focus more on lower tier characters.

I have a thesis that banning the top 30% of the cast for any game makes the game better. Not that I'd ever convert anyone to that belief. Fox only FD

 

[Aidebit]

1 stock is fine Bo5, not Bo7. Also 2 stock should stay Bo3. Account for the fact that people will take for ****ing ever to CP.

I'm not sure what 1.1 DR would fix other than some infinites. Items would be interesting, but good luck with that lolol.

Agreeing with first half. I'm a pseudo-PT main, so one-stock would be favourable.

1.1 DR could also make people die earlier, which, in a game where you can survive till 130% with good DI, could make the matches go by quicker.

 

[nat pagle]

Ban ice climbers and MK. Former because they just wait around too much and the latter because no one wants a top 8 full of MK's anymore.

 

[CURRY]

^ Still pretty awesome to see a good player on another character beat MK though.
idk. I really like seeing Brawl matches when there are good commentators. And then in the comments if these said matches with "good commentators", there's still people complaining. So I guess that's just a me thing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ICs are easily nerfed by adding more stages, most of which are banned because of MK's strength and presence.

 

[DeLux]

I ran 1 stock at my last event during pools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1zblEtMvhU


It was particularly satisfying to run because I designed my rulesset with 1stock matches in mind.
The video features the top preseeded players in each pool

We had:
Mr. Moti vs. MJG
T22 vs. Mr. Doom
Fragger vs. Rev
Zeton vs. CT DeLux aka FreeFree FreeLux now ft. 3x the Free

Plus some filler matches all in the span of 42 minutes.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

One of the largest problems I've seen when it comes to complaints against Brawl is "it's boring to watch".

I have read every thread in Brawl Competitive (literally). I've seen so many suggestions made to try and make the game better for spectators, to speed up matches, make the game more exciting, give us more variety.

Something you may want to keep in mind, is what sort of people are the ones who complain about those kind of trivial things. No discrimination intended, but people who are not very competetive and not very well-versed in what high-level Brawl implies, make those sort of silly comments. These are the sort of people that constantly whine (although it sort of sounds like poor trolling) about the matches being repetetive and boring.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people who actually understand what's going on can't find some of those matches boring, as well. I was pretty bored with the GFs taking place at Youmacon, which was a pretty damn long set of M2K vs. NAKAT (MK-ICs, go figure).

My largest question here is: why weren't any of them done?!?!?!

Here's a few to list:

[New rules suggestions]

Sure some are better then others (by a long shot even for some) but why is it that now when every is saying "Brawl is dying", "it's gonna be dead as soon as Smash 4 comes out", "there's no hope for Brawl", people STILL arren't trying to do things differently to see if the game can have some life?

If a group of dedicated people sat down and started hosting tournaments with rules to make the game better for spectators, could Brawl see some new life? If so, what suggestions would be best for making this possible?

I don't think changing the rules for them to attract more casual players is the solution, here...if anything, they look even less serious (no offense).

I think that people are pretty dumb in the first place, by not putting enough effort into fully developing their characters. They are too discouraged about MK & ICs running the metagame, that they'd rather either switch to them (and become among the many unrecognized players, winning locals at best), complain about it or simply...quit the game, and have faith in Smash 4, even if that means hardly knowing a thing about the game and it's physics/mechanics. However, this isn't limited to only really hard MUs...I can understand, if you use characters on the lower end and happen to have terrible MUs against the likes of MK. But the point here is, people from a start here have been too discouraged about sticking with the characters that they actually like, that they'd prefer taking the "easy" road and go with characters that contribute even further to the masses of MKs that makes people complain about them running the metagame.

 

[nat pagle]

^ Still pretty awesome to see a good player on another character beat MK though.
idk. I really like seeing Brawl matches when there are good commentators. And then in the comments if these said matches with "good commentators", there's still people complaining. So I guess that's just a me thing.

The fact that it's a feel-good moment that anyone beats an MK shows how detracting his dominance is. I'm coming from solely a streaming perspective, with MK and IC banned a lot more stages and characters are opened up.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I ran 1 stock at my last event during pools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1zblEtMvhU


It was particularly satisfying to run because I designed my rulesset with 1stock matches in mind.
The video features the top preseeded players in each pool

We had:
Mr. Moti vs. MJG
T22 vs. Mr. Doom
Fragger vs. Rev
Zeton vs. CT DeLux aka FreeFree FreeLux now ft. 3x the Free

Plus some filler matches all in the span of 42 minutes.

What did people think of one stock, and what where the exact rules so I could check it out?

 

[DeLux]

What did people think of one stock, and what where the exact rules so I could check it out?

Rulesset was:

9 Stages - BF, SV, YIB, PS, FD, CS, RC, DP, LC
Double Blind Character Pick
Stage striking in 1-2-2-2-1 fashion from all legal stages

After Game 1 - Both players ban stages in 1-2-1 fashion
Players may not go to the same stage twice
Loser of previous game picks the stage, with standard counterpicking rules of winner picks character first followed by loser picks character second.

Best of five set.


In the event the game goes to five games, every stage available that isn't banned by the rulesset or the players is used over the set. The only way a player can jockey an advantage within the rulesset is through intelligent counterpicking of characters, since you know for certain in any given set which stages will be used after the bans.

I liked it. I didn't ask what anyone else thought since I didn't particularly care what they thought about it haha

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Actually i find that pretty interesting if anything else.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Rulesset was:

9 Stages - BF, SV, YIB, PS, FD, CS, RC, DP, LC
Double Blind Character Pick
Stage striking in 1-2-2-2-1 fashion from all legal stages

After Game 1 - Both players ban stages in 1-2-1 fashion
Players may not go to the same stage twice
Loser of previous game picks the stage, with standard counterpicking rules of winner picks character first followed by loser picks character second.

Best of five set.


In the event the game goes to five games, every stage available that isn't banned by the rulesset or the players is used over the set. The only way a player can jockey an advantage within the rulesset is through intelligent counterpicking of characters, since you know for certain in any given set which stages will be used after the bans.

I liked it. I didn't ask what anyone else thought since I didn't particularly care what they thought about it haha

Curious. I wish I could have watched, the variety alone would have given it some extra excitement.

 

[DeLux]

I linked a video so you could watch?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I linked a video so you could watch?

... Ignore my stupidity, had a dumb moment.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I linked a video so you could watch?

Okay sorry for the double post, but I've gotten to watch a bunch of it now and I'm not seeing much for problems, did it cause any problems at the event somehow?

 

[DeLux]

Well, the only problem was that it was a departure from what everyone was used to imo, so there were familiarity issues. But obviously it ran extremely quickly (got through 5 rounds of sets in 42 minutes with some down time between sets). Plus it made for a larger variety of stage usage.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, the only problem was that it was a departure from what everyone was used to imo, so there were familiarity issues. But obviously it ran extremely quickly (got through 5 rounds of sets in 42 minutes with some down time between sets). Plus it made for a larger variety of stage usage.

This feels like it has a LOT in common with Smash 64 and how they've been discussing 4 stocks instead of 5. If people got familiar with it, it added variety, and made matches go faster, would in your opinion it make Brawl better to watch and play?

 

[DeLux]

I think so.

I like how it breaks up the pacing from a commentary standpoint as well since people have to make tactical decisions for stage picking.
It removes the "I have the stock lead so I'm going to plank to try to add on as much damage as possible".

It buffs ZSS, PT, Olimar off the top of my head.
It nerfs Wario.

I'm not sure how it affects Lucario in the grand scheme of things.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think so.

I like how it breaks up the pacing from a commentary standpoint as well since people have to make tactical decisions for stage picking.
It removes the "I have the stock lead so I'm going to plank to try to add on as much damage as possible".

It buffs ZSS, PT, Olimar off the top of my head.
It nerfs Wario.

I'm not sure how it affects Lucario in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not against a slightly better metagame for the idea of having a ruleset that extends the life of Brawl and makes it better to watch.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

Banning Meta Knight and Ice Climbers would be interesting to try out in real big tourney (if there are any that tried this, please tell me!) and, of course, allowing a bigger pool of stages that mostly only are disabled because of Meta Knight.

The main problem is that I find myself skipping matches that include either MK or IC's because it's a drag.

IC's forces camping which is never fun to watch. That matters to me, when I watch Smash I want it, for the most part, to be fun, and while there are other characters that also are very campy in their nature, it doesn't matter that much to me. Because the differences with the Ice Climbers is that they force the OTHER PLAYER to camp. It's one thing to play a campy character, but when a character forces the other character (no matter which one it is) to camp it's boring.

As for MK, he's just so.... boring. We've seen MK so much that I'm just tired of the character, no matter who MK is up against doesn't matter that much anymore, it's just soooo boooooooring (in my opinion anyway). On top of that the character is so godlike that it's not even fair. I mean... seriously... when you have ban a majority of the stages to nerf this guy... something is just wrong.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Banning Meta Knight and Ice Climbers would be interesting to try out in real big tourney (if there are any that tried this, please tell me!)

I know one happened, can't remember for the life of me who held it though

 

[NickRiddle]

WHOBO bans MK, and adds more stages to balance out ICs.

 

[BlueXenon]

Brawl is usually a fine spectator game that can be extremely intense and climactic, especially when both characters are in a last hit and last stock situation. I understand that GF, WF, and LS are sometimes boring sets to watch for most people, but most of the time, the people who complain are those who are ignorant of brawl and know almost nothing about the game.

Also, brawl isn't a game filled with flashiness and ridiculous combos, so in order to fully enjoy spectating the game, you must understand what's happening. Otherwise you'll just see two characters throwing things from opposite sides of the stage.

 

[Xyro77]

WHOBO bans MK, and adds more stages to balance out ICs.

only 2 of the 5 whobos i did had MK banned

 

[NickRiddle]

You're a terrible person.

 

[Thor]

Better than Alex Strife.

We could also make some intentionally _____ (I think obnoxious is the wrong word but MK mains would call it that) ruleset where if a player chooses to play MK, the other player may choose to strike all non-neutral stages and currently approved CP stages (i.e, a ruleset with 9 stages is in effect, if a player chooses MK the other player may unilaterally ban all the stages that would be banned now that MK is legal, and this doesn't take away their normal ban [so it autobans Delfino, RC, and Frigate if you have the neutrals, PS, and those three, plus they get their normal ban), so that MK loses his dominance on those stages because he doesn't get them and ICs are balanced out against non-MKs. It would also let MK dittos and non-MK matches take place on more interesting stages.

Just an idea, although MK mains might think we're just hating on them. But this would add interest (more stages for non-MK rounds or MK dittos, more balance against ICs making those matches marginally more interesting) without actually having to ban characters. And of course, people could ban them and then CP MK to them if they like the stage (because a ban doesn't mean MK can't go there, although that's probably unstrategic for the non-MK).

 

[DeLux]

I've actually been running a 9 stage 2 ban list in KC.

BF, SV, LC, YIB, FD, CS, PS, DP, RC

MK banned on DP/RC

That means that if you're a solo MK main and you don't want to be CP'd off of your character, you're forced to use your bans on DP/RC. At the same time, the characters that gain a tremendous amount from CPing those stages (Wario/GW etc.) don't have to worry about MK being picked, so those stages get used quite a bit more often than the could with the threat of MK looming over them.

It also gives non-MK players two bans against ICs, which makes things significantly harder for ICs in the modern metagame, especially since we strike from the entire stage list rather than a 5 starter list.

 

[Jackson]

Sorry for the noob question , but what does the "Bo" mean in " 1 stock bo7 match"?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sorry for the noob question , but what does the "Bo" mean in " 1 stock bo7 match"?

"best of"

 

[Jackson]

"best of"

Ahh, thanks. That does sound like a good idea then.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Ban MK

10 characters

 

[krazyzyko]

That 1 stock matches for Brawl seems pretty legit. I'm totally up for it. It might even save the games life.

 

[danschemen]

I have a thesis that banning the top 30% of the cast for any game makes the game better. Not that I'd ever convert anyone to that belief. Fox only FD

That wouldn't solve anything. Everyone would just gravitate to the next best thing.