Luigi Specific Match-up Discussion Thread (Week 4: Villager and Pikachu!)

[TriTails]

Welcome to Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread!​

This is a thread that we will use to discuss on how our green plumber go against the rest of Smash 4 casts!

For each week, we will discuss two characters simulatenously! And to specify the MU, we will use ratios, which are:
0:100 - 5:95 = Luigi is screwed. He will almost always lose this MU.
10:90 - 15:85 = HUGE disadvantage. As close as unwinnable.
20:80 - 25:75 = Major disadvantage.
30:70 - 35:65 = Solid disadvantage.
40:60 - 45:55 = Slight disadvantage.
50:50 = Luigi goes even with the opposition.
55:45 - 60:40 = Slight advantage.
65:35 - 70:30 = Solid advantage.
75:25 - 80:20 = Major advantage.
85:15 - 90:10 = HUGE advantage. As close as unloseable.
95:5 - 100:0 = Time to say night-night! As Luigi stomp this character so hard that he will almost always win this MU.

THINGS TO NOTE!

• Luigi's ratio is on the left, while the opponent's ratio in on the right! Make sure you do this if you aren't going to specify which one's favor.

• Giving ratios are NOT a must. However, when you do, make sure you provide reasoning with it! No reasoning ratios will NOT be taken into account. Simply saying: 'Luigi loses 40:60' or 'Luigi wins 70:30' will not suffice.

• We will go both Default AND Customs! So specify which ratios are which. Example: 'This MU is 60:40 Luigi's favor in Default, while it's 45:55 X's favor in Customs'. However, you don't have to contribute both if you don't want to.

• Ratios given will be added together and be divided on the total ratios given. Example, there's 3 ratios given. 55:45, 60:40, 35:65. This all will be added like this: 55+60+35/3:45+40+65/3 = 50:50. 50:50 will be the final result of that MU analysis!

• VOTES GO TO THE GENERAL MU THREAD!

Here is a MU table for everyone in default settings:

||||||||
?|50:50|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?| 35:65 |?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|50:50
||||||||
54:46 | 53:47 |?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?| 40:60 |?|?|?|?|?|?|50:50

?

And here is the custom one!

||||||||
?|50:50|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?| 35:65 |?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|60:40
||||||||
?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
||||||||
?| 25:75 |?|?|?|?|?|?|?

?

Whew. Making tables are tough.

With that done...

Spoiler: Our discussion history!

Week 1 [30/6/2015 - 7/7/2015]


Week 2 [8/7/2015 - 16/7/2015]


Week 3 [17/07/2015 - 05/08/2015]


Week 4 [06/08/2015 - 13/08/2015]

The summaries of the MU so far:

Spoiler: Our summaries!

Spoiler

Summary:
Coming after shortly!

Default:
MonkeyArms = 35:65 Sheik
ArikadoX = 35:65 Sheik

Custom:
MonkeyArms = 35:65 Sheik
ArikadoX = 35:65 Sheik

Spoiler

Default:
Lizard_Buttock = 60:40 Luigi
MonkeyArms = 60:40 Luigi
Astro != = 55:45 Luigi
lijero13ss = 40:60 R.O.B.
Yonder = 40:60 R.O.B.
Mister Eric = 45:55 R.O.B.

Customs:
MonkeyArms = 60:40 Luigi

Spoiler

Default:
lijero13ss = 55:45 Luigi
yoshi8984 = 53:47 Luigi
Astro != 55:45 Luigi

Spoiler

Summary:
Coming after shortly!

Default:
STiCKYBULL3TZ = 55:45 Luigi
XenoBrawler610 = 50:50 Even
MonkeyArms = 55:45 Luigi
Yonder = 50:50 Even

Spoiler

Default:
STiCKYBULL3TZ = 30:70 Mega Man
ellejayfish = 35:65 Mega Man
MonkeyArms = 30:70 Mega Man
Greward = 60:40 Luigi
Yonder = 40:60 Mega Man
ravemaster47 = 50:50 Even
Astro != = 40:60 Mega Man

Customs =
MonkeyArms = 25:75 Mega Man

Spoiler

Yonder = 45:55 Roy
leesinger = 55:45 Luigi

And now that everything's done... Ya know what time it is?

Let's-a-go!​

 

[TriTails]

Reserved for future purposes.

 

[TriTails]

Whew. That was harder than I thought to make 'em.

Anyway. Here we are! Week 1: Sheik and Falcon! I'll go invite them over. Now go papayas.

 

[Samura1man]

I would highly like to have +1, +2 system than 40-60, because I think it makes more sense and it wouldn't confuse to see those 35-65 numbers all over the place, that's just my suggestion.

Anyway, matchup discussion: Sheik and Falcon.
I need to think of these a little bit more before I make my opinion

 

[TriTails]

I would highly like to have +1, +2 system than 40-60, because I think it makes more sense and it wouldn't confuse to see those 35-65 numbers all over the place, that's just my suggestion.

Using ratios feels more detailed. IMO, using +1 is less deep in detail rather than 55:45 or 60:40. Or +2 to 65:35 or 70:30.

That's what I think anyway. I'll change the ratios to plus-and-minus system if there are high requests.

 

[Space Stranger]

Shouldn't we invite the and boards for discussing the MU? It will benefit those like me who don't know much about vs. .

 

[TriTails]

Shouldn't we invite the and boards for discussing the MU? It will benefit those like me who don't know much about vs. .

One step ahead of ya buddy.

In the meantime. Feel free to contribute whatever infos you know. I'll do a writeup at the end of the week to summarize everyone's thoughts, as well as quoting notable ones.

And by the way, you don't have to contribute to both characters. If you know only one, then post about that one. It's OK if you don't know the other MU.

 

[-Grimm-]

Just putting my thoughts out here as a Luigi main, won't put a specific ratio or anything for lack of tournament experience...

Both Cap and Sheik have extremely strong air game, not to mention easy setups to get their opponents in the air. Since Luigi is so floaty, and only has easily punishable moves to return to the ground safely, he can easily get juggled for a fair amount of percent. This is one reason why these matchups can get difficult for him.

Regarding the specific matchups, Luigi can out-neutral Cap easily by setting up a wall of fireballs. This can also set up into his grab combos, so it's very possible that Luigi's fireball singlehandedly tips the matchup in his favor.

With sheik on the other hand, the fireball isn't as easy to abuse. Her needles outrange the fireball (correct me if I'm wrong), and she can safely needlecamp until she sees an opening - which, with sheik, are plentiful. However, assuming Luigi gets her into a grab combo, she doesn't have many ways to break out. Additionally, Luigi can kill sheik at a far lower percent than she can him, which means getting quick fsmash reads or getting her into the d-throw/down-b is crucial.

Those are just some thoughts based on my experience. There's much more to these matchups than I put, I'm sure, but those are just some things to consider.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

First I wanna say thanks for making this @ TriTails . I know we've been discussing MUs for a while. Good to finally have an organized thread for it. Ok...now on to my essay


I have tons on MU experience here because my brother plays Falcon and a guy in my crew does. I used to think Falcon was an easy MU for Luigi but now I'm more inclined to think it's even now that ppl are starting to get the hang of Falcon and his playstyle a lot more. Both have advantages and disadvantages over the other that makes this MU all about playing better than your opponent.

NEUTRAL
Luigi has an advantage here because he has his Fireball that Falcon must maneuver around. For Luigi, it's important to throw Fireballs high and low to keep Falcon at bay. Be careful of spamming at mid/mid-close range. Falcon's quick land and fall speed can quickly close the distance and punish if you're mindlessly throwing out Fireballs. Most times Falcon will be approaching with dash grab, dash attack, or Nair. Luigi can combat this without much trouble with SH fairs and dairs. Timing is important tho. Falcon can possibly hit you during your jump and before your hitbox because of his speed. Luigi should always be forcing Falcon to approach here.

ADVANTAGE//DISADVANTAGED STATE
Both characters have a strong advantage state on each other and both can combo each other well. I would say Luigi has the stronger advantage state. A grab from Luigi nets him big damage and regrabs on Falcon because of his fall speed. Falcon doesn't have any combo breakers but can escape disadvantage fairly easy because of his speed vs Luigi. Falcon Kick and Dair is good vs a Luigi who's trying to juggle. Luigi can get out of combos fairly easy because of Nair. Don't abuse Nair because it can be baited and punished. The toughest part for Luigi is landing. Falcon can easily stalk Luigi and pressure with Uairs. Luigi can't do much to combat this. He can attempt B reverses to mix up his trajectory, Cyclone to the ground to mix up fall speed (can be punished hard if missed or blocked), or attempt to go for ledge (a combination of riskier but safer). It's tough but doable.

EDGEGUARDING
Again both characters are strong against each other here. Falcon can easily take out a side B recovery with just OK timing. Falcon Bair can catch Luigi Up B. Falcon can also cover a high recovery pretty well. Sweetspotting Up B is key to avoiding a Dair spike or Dtilt. Cyclone recovery works well as Falcon can't combat it nearly as well but be careful about the Cyclone endlag. Luigi edgeguards Falcon very well because his Up B has no hitbox. He can simply go out and throw a hitbox to knock Falcon away. Dair, Fair, Bair all work really well. For Luigi's that can jumpless cyclone, this wrecks Falcon very hard. Falcon is forced to often recover higher than normal or mix up by using side B or Up B'ing high then floating back to ledge.

FINAL NOTES
In my points, it seems like Luigi wins this solidly but Falcon's knockback, damage output, and speed give Luigi a much harder time than it would seem. Air dodge traps are common and Falcon juggles Luigi well. But if Luigi is patient and slows Falcon down this MU isn't so bad. Whoever controls the pace wins the game.
55/45 Luigi

 

[Deleted member]

I can't say much on Sheik, but from what I've heard, it's a nightmare of a matchup for Luigi... *shivers*

So Luigi vs. Captain Falcon...

Luigi in neutral primarily relies on short hop aerials and Fireballs. The aerials easily stop rush-down Falcons, mainly due to the fact that Luigi can punish them in time with a nice down throw. While Fireballs can keep Falcon at bay, spamming them is not a good idea. You'll need to mix up beyond that because if you don't, Falcon will punish you with his own aerials, such as the devastating Knee of Justice. Regularly Falcons will space you with nair, try to get Luigi with his long ranged dash grab and combo you into smithereens, and dash attack you to start a combo. One thing that I should mention is Falcon's jab; it's long ranged and can cancel Fireballs, which is dangerous for Luigi in neutral (not to mention that both the Gentleman and infinite jab are amazing, but I think you can nair out of the latter). Falcon has many tools that he can use and adapt to in this matchup; he might go for the Knee to counter careless Fireball spam.

In terms of strengths and weaknesses for Luigi in this matchup:
+Luigi can easily combo Falcon with a down throw, thanks to his poor air speed and fall speed. You'll easily rack up damage against Falcon in a matter of seconds really, that is if you punish him correctly. While his good fall speed makes Falcon harder to kill, he can be an easy target for Luigi by essentially being combo meat for down throw combos and up tilt strings and combos.
+Falcon's attacks are pretty punishable for Luigi. If Luigi can take advantage of Falcon's landing issues that he has, Luigi can easily punish Falcon. Falcon's attacks, while powerful, also have a ton of end lag to them.
-Like @ STiCKYBULL3TZ mentioned, Falcon can just bait several attacks and then punish you for it. Nair, while a great combo starter, can be shielded by Falcon and he can just follow up with a down throw or a smash attack.
-As mentioned before, Falcon can disrupt Luigi in neutral with his other aerials and even mix up with a Falcon Kick. While Luigi's options are effective in neutral, they are also pretty limited; Falcon's tools can counter Luigi's attacks.
+/- Both have bad recoveries and both can gimp each other. Falcon has an OK time gimping Luigi's predictable recovery, while Luigi has yet a similar OK time gimping Falcon's predictable recovery. However, Falcon is a much bigger threat off-stage than Luigi is.

Falcon's power, speed, and damage output are incredible and shouldn't be feared. Luigi's output damage works wonders against Falcon and he does well keeping Falcon at bay.
A good Luigi should be mindful and patient in this matchup. Failure to do so will result you in getting punished by Falcon.
I say this matchup is 50:50. Both have amazing strengths against each other and glaring weaknesses that they can exploit.

 

[TriTails]

About Luigi vs Sheik.

Everyone should be aware and familiar on how Mr. CC got triple 2-stocked vs Zero's Sheik in OOMBA.

Well, he didn't gave up, and at least now he managed to put up a fight. Only getting two-stocked on the last match, and took a stock off Zero's Sheik in both prior matches. In fact, in the Winners Finals he managed to take a game off Zero's Sheik (Admitedly, that last stock was because he managed to pin Sheik to the lazer in Halberd, then stage-spiked him with D-air. But Mr. CC actually got the stock first).

People are overreacting to Luigi vs Sheik. A really amazing Luigi got triple 2-stocked by a really really amazing Sheik. So? I don't think Mr. CC is on Zero's levels (No offense Mr. CC. In truth, I have no doubts of you being the best Luigi). Mr. CC showed that it's truly possible and manageable. So I no longer think it's something like 65:35 Sheik. People are free to give their own opinions though.

 

[ArikadoSD]

A Sheik main summoned from the Sheik boards by @ TriTails here. I had the luxury of fighting an okay/decent Luigi yesterday and the poor soul couldn't do anything. A while ago (like, months ago), I used to really struggle with the MU because I really didn't know what to do, I was too reliant on Sheik's fair strings and Luigi has an immunity to that with his nair. Fast forward, I became better, knew how to play the MU, and what to do in every situation, and now I'm very confident with it.

Basically, Luigi's fireballs are amazing but they're not as good as needles. Their [fireballs] range is very lackluster and we can easily outcamp Luigi and out-projectile him, and if Luigi decides to try and do his usual fireball -> grab shenanigans we can just easily get out of there thanks to Sheik's excellent mobility (double jump -> bouncing fish away).

Luigi also cannot deal with well-spaced Fair and needles period. We can punish his landings with needles everytime and if he decides to approach we can fair him away thanks to fair's disjoint. One thing I found an online Luigi doing against me was trying to punish needles with a down b aimed at me which worked for a couple times until I started adapting to it (charging needles, baiting it, cancelling with shield or actually stopping the down b with needles etc)

As long as Sheik keeps away from being directly above Luigi to avoid the usmash and avoid usmash in general while maintaining a good use of fair and needles, it's pretty damn difficult for Luigi.

 

[MonkeyArms]

:
Advantages for :
Luigi can get 2 easy regrabs off one throw with down throw forward air forward air, easily getting him 50 damage. (Or nuetral air in some cases) Luigi has a fairly easy time edge guarding Falcon.

Advantages for :
Has a lot of pushback on Luigi's shield, so most of his attacks are safe on shield. Can spam falcon kick to get through a spam of fireballs. Can edge guard Luigi with a back air, down air, or a frame perfect up tilt spike. Has a decently easy time getting in on Luigi.

Disadvantages for : Predictable recovery against falcon. Easily juggled.

Disadvantages for : Rapid jab is virtually useless as Luigi can usually get 2 sweet spotted nairs. If Luigi can get 1 good approach, expect a lot of damage, because falcon can't break combos very easily.

Overall, I say this match up is 65:35 in 's favor.


:

Advantages for : Can combo Sheik fairly easily. Can wall out with fair and bair. Can tack on damage with fireballs to counter damage from needles. Can edge guard Sheik.

Advantages for : Easily walls Luigi out. Has an easy time comboing Luigi, especially with forward throw. Can up b safely if angled correctly on stage. Doesn't need to approach. Can edge guard Luigi easily.

Disadvantages for : Has too approach, and has a hard time doing it. Green missile is very punishable offstage by bouncing fish, so he shouldn't throw it out often. Cannot nair out of Sheik's combos.

Disadvantages for : Can't juggle Luigi very easily.

Overall, I give this matchup 30:70 in Sheik's favor.

 

[TriTails]

@ ArikadoSD Do you have a ratio for Luigi vs Sheik?

Disadvantages for : Cannot nair out of Sheik's combos.

Actually, if you DI correctly and N-air, I'm pretty sure you can break her combos.

 

[ArikadoSD]

@ ArikadoSD Do you have a ratio for Luigi vs Sheik?


Actually, if you DI correctly and N-air, I'm pretty sure you can break her combos.

35:65 Sheik's favour

 

[TriTails]

I'll put your ratio in there.

BY THE FREAKIN' WAY! Any of you have hindsights on customs?

 

[ArikadoSD]

I'll put your ratio in there.

BY THE FREAKIN' WAY! Any of you have hindsights on customs?

I never saw Luigi use any customs that would change how the mu plays (none that I saw anyway), and I don't think Sheik has any customs that would change it either, unless the Sheik player gets cheesy and goes with gimmicky stuff ala pisces, jellyfish, paralyzing needles.

Penetrating needles would be a bad option against Luigi though because their range is significantly shorter.

 

[TriTails]

1311 is probably the best Luigi set for this MU. Simply because Quick Missile >>>>>>>>>>> Green Missile. Much less gimpable status and is faster and more awkward. Plus you can somehow FD jump with it when recovering .

By the way, if any of you want to have some Sheik vs Luigi, have some vids!

And some more I'm sure are lying on YouTube.

TBH I don't think this MU go over 60:40 for Sheik. I haven't found needles to be such threat unless fully charged, and Fireballs out-damages non-fully charged needles. To me, this is basically a war of 'who can combo each other's *** first'. Sheik will generally combo Luigi throughout the match, but 2-3 combo strings from Sheik = 1 combo string from Luigi. Luigi also kills Sheik quite easily with his plethora of kill setups and N-air is a godsend in this MU. But this is my thread and those are y'all opinions, so I respect them.

So your ratio goes the same for customs Arikado?

 

[ArikadoSD]

TBH I don't think this MU go over 60:40 for Sheik. I haven't found needles to be such threat unless fully charged, and Fireballs out-damages non-fully charged needles. To me, this is basically a war of 'who can combo each other's *** first'. Sheik will generally combo Luigi throughout the match, but 2-3 combo strings from Sheik = 1 combo string from Luigi. Luigi also kills Sheik quite easily with his plethora of kill setups and N-air is a godsend in this MU. But this is my thread and those are y'all opinions, so I respect them.

So your ratio goes the same for customs Arikado?

I honestly don't think it's about combos. Sheik fully has the capacity to completely shut down Luigi's approaches and form a hard wall with needles and fairs where he can't get grabs or spam fireballs to nab grabs because she can easily get out of sticky situations with her excellent mobility. That's why I'd strike stages like Battlefield against Luigi; they're too small and doesn't give Sheik enough breathing space.

An on-point Sheik can also go for fair strings easily against Luigi while either being near frame-perfect and not giving him room to nair or staying out of nair's range with fair's disjoint.

Also yes it remains the same.

 

[MonkeyArms]

The two don't benefit from customs that much, but sheik with pericing needles could be more of a threat. However, I still give it the same ratio. I honestly prefer Luigi's default moveset.

 

[TriTails]

I honestly don't think it's about combos. Sheik fully has the capacity to completely shut down Luigi's approaches and form a hard wall with needles and fairs where he can't get grabs or spam fireballs to nab grabs because she can easily get out of sticky situations with her excellent mobility. That's why I'd strike stages like Battlefield against Luigi; they're too small and doesn't give Sheik enough breathing space.

An on-point Sheik can also go for fair strings easily against Luigi while either being near frame-perfect and not giving him room to nair or staying out of nair's range with fair's disjoint.

No. Not really. SH Fireballs lets Luigi fire a Fireball at Sheik's height level while also staying clear of needles. Needles don't stop Fireballs, and needles end lag disables you from avoiding it, and not throwing needles gives Luigi time to land and potentially do the same tactic over again. And rolling is a bad idea because you either are retreating to your limited space, or rolling straight for his punish. You can argue that Fireballs have lesser range than needles but tbh needles doesn't stop Luigi from approaching or getting to Fireballs' range unless it's fully charged and/or Luigi is at late percentages. And Luigi's falling speed kinda helps him to move forward a bit.

Even without N-air breaking your combos, no one can disagree that one solid string from Luigi can mean 40-50% of damage. Sheik can F-throw + BF that deals 19% at low percents, and then F-throw to 1234567890 F-airs and BF. But five F-airs from Sheik deal 27.5%, and that doesn't even taking stale. Luigi can almost double that with his aerials (F-air to U-air from D-throw deal 26%. Can be chained to U-tilt for 32%. Now you can be regrabbed due to your falling speed unless you jumped away, and now you are vulnerable to U-smash and juggles. Doesn't work at 0% iirc, but works at slightly later percentages, something like 6-12%. But my point is Luigi doesn't use the same move over and over again to rack up damage (Yeah. F-air + U-air > Double chop)).

I play both Luigi and Sheik actually. But maybe it's because my Sheik is ***. Correct me if I'm any wrong though!

I'll edit your and MonkeyArms' ratios in. Let me know if any of you changed your ratios and I'll make a spaghetti outta 'em.

 

[veritron]

I honestly don't think it's about combos. Sheik fully has the capacity to completely shut down Luigi's approaches and form a hard wall with needles and fairs where he can't get grabs or spam fireballs to nab grabs because she can easily get out of sticky situations with her excellent mobility. That's why I'd strike stages like Battlefield against Luigi; they're too small and doesn't give Sheik enough breathing space.

An on-point Sheik can also go for fair strings easily against Luigi while either being near frame-perfect and not giving him room to nair or staying out of nair's range with fair's disjoint.

Also yes it remains the same.

I've been on the wrong side of this before and if the Shiek is fully walling out with needles and fairs, it's difficult to get a solid approach. Shiek's f-air just wins over anything you can do in the air, and it's difficult to both shield needles and actually play the game at the same tim

No. Not really. SH Fireballs lets Luigi fire a Fireball at Sheik's height level while also staying clear of needles. Needles don't stop Fireballs, and needles end lag disables you from avoiding it, and not throwing needles gives Luigi time to land and potentially do the same tactic over again. And rolling is a bad idea because you either are retreating to your limited space, or rolling straight for his punish. You can argue that Fireballs have lesser range than needles but tbh needles doesn't stop Luigi from approaching or getting to Fireballs' range unless it's fully charged and/or Luigi is at late percentages. And Luigi's falling speed kinda helps him to move forward a bit.

Even without N-air breaking your combos, no one can disagree that one solid string from Luigi can mean 40-50% of damage. Sheik can F-throw + BF that deals 19% at low percents, and then F-throw to 1234567890 F-airs and BF. But five F-airs from Sheik deal 27.5%, and that doesn't even taking stale. Luigi can almost double that with his aerials (F-air to U-air from D-throw deal 26%. Can be chained to U-tilt for 32%. Now you can be regrabbed due to your falling speed unless you jumped away, and now you are vulnerable to U-smash and juggles. Doesn't work at 0% iirc, but works at slightly later percentages, something like 6-12%. But my point is Luigi doesn't use the same move over and over again to rack up damage (Yeah. F-air + U-air > Double chop)).

I play both Luigi and Sheik actually. But maybe it's because my Sheik is ***. Correct me if I'm any wrong though!

I'll edit your and MonkeyArms' ratios in. Let me know if any of you changed your ratios and I'll make a spaghetti outta 'em.

Short hop fireball isn't a cure for the f-air walling, f-air walling is just the reason why Luigi can't approach using aerials.

Keep in mind that the good Shiek player is being incredibly lame in this match-up. This f-air wall needle crap is hard because
a) Luigi has to do the approach because Shiek has safe ways of putting up damage and will never approach unless she's going for the final stock.
b) Luigi has no other viable approach option but walking/running.
c) Walking/running sucks against Shiek because of needles.

If you get the d-throw against Shiek then you weren't playing a good Shiek. Shiek just has poor representation because a lot of people who play her aren't using her to full potential.

 

[Kursed]

Sheik is a very fast unpredictable character, so that leaves Luigi with little options when shiek tries to edge guard. Everytime I battle a sheik player, it's so annoying because I find the MU is really silly. Luigi has limited ways to actually grab sheik too because she is so fast. Anyways, I know the MU would be low, but I give the sheik luigi match up in the 30:70 - 35:65 = Solid disadvantage range.

 

[TriTails]

Sheik is a very fast unpredictable character, so that leaves Luigi with little options when shiek tries to edge guard. Everytime I battle a sheik player, it's so annoying because I find the MU is really silly. Luigi has limited ways to actually grab sheik too because she is so fast. Anyways, I know the MU would be low, but I give the sheik luigi match up in the 30:70 - 35:65 = Solid disadvantage range.

30:70 or 35-65?

And also guys. What do you think about Luigi vs Falcon in customs? And also, vote for the next character in the general MU thread.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Change my ranking on the sheik match up to 35:65. I played at ORL against Talon (the best Sheik player in the area) And I actually beat him 1 set.

 

[TriTails]

Change my ranking on the sheik match up to 35:65. I played at ORL against Talon (the best Sheik player in the area) And I actually beat him 1 set.

Done.

Tommorow is the last day for discussion. At 8th we will move on to Week 2. Vote the character guys!

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I say Ness because the Ness boards have been vigilant about talking about Luigi.

Also Mega Man

 

[MonkeyArms]

We've basically came to the conclusion Sheik is 65:35 or 60:40 in Sheiks favor so put one of those.

 

[Yonder]

So for Sheik and Falcon...I'll copy paste my old Falcon writeup since it still applies with some edits:


"Falcons can be uppercutted if they whiff any special moves, but thanks to his long limbs and fast movement speed, he can juggle Luigi with up airs very well. Up air is the bane of Luigi's existance. He is almost helpess,to it but fortunately it received a small nerf in damage in knockback in the latest patch.Fortunately, one down throw on Falcon makes him easy to combo thanks to his big frame and fast fall speed, similar to Ganondorf. I usually never fail to get less than 40% off a grab at 0%. Unlike Ganondorf though, who can't answer to fireballs, Falcon can do a flying knee over them and hit you square on, so they are only average in this matchup. He can still be gimped with a well placed dair spike though. Falcon's jab is useless here because Luigi will nair it, breaking it right away and allowing him to trade some damage. It is only potent if the hidden range hits you as you approach with the last hit. I usually win this match up though thanks to the sheer amount of how much I've played it now. If untrained though, can be a bit difficult. Falcon can juggle and get around your projectiles with speed, but often leaves himself open to uppercuts and combos hurt him. 50:50 ."

Sheik...ugh. Luigi's worst so far, in my experience. My friend [who is a bit better than me] just eats me alive with his Sheik, who he mains. He also mains Pit as a secondary, who I can defeat most of the time. But this matchup sucks. Needles are better than fireball in terms of both hitstun and range, especially when Sheik's is fully charged. She never has to approach. Luigi has no answers to fair and you can only nair the 4th one, I believe. Luigi can nair out of a few moves of Sheik's like her jab I think and some others, but that's it. Luigi is helpless to Sheik's uair, airdodge it and hope you can hit the ground...that Sheik will catch you on with an upsmash. Watch out for the triple fair to bouncing dish combo offstage, it's Sheik's main killer and kills at 100% I think. You can't really do much to stop it if it happens so...avoid it. Sheik can gimp Luigi offstage like it's nobody's business too with needles, fair, bouncing fish, even an up B kill. You cannot gimp Sheik back [except by landing a dair spike before she starts her up b if you are very lucky. Luigi's only chance really is to get a good smash attack in as Sheik dies early and Luigi beats out Sheik in kill power. Btw for people who say Sheik has no killing power...bouncing fish, up b, and up smash all kill in the low hundreds. Don't underestimate it I like delfino against Sheik or low ceiling stages. You have one advantage in kill power against Sheik, might as well go all out. As for customs, nothing really changes tbh. I think Sheik gains an extra kill option in gravity grenade. Yay. Luigi gets a better missile in the form of quick missile...only to be gimped. It's helped me a bit better though. My friend the Sheik player says iceballs are harder to avoid than normal fireballs but then against he doesn't use customs normally and neither do I. So...heck, your fireballs suck here anyways, I say go iceballs since you might be able to catch Sheik during an onslaught and open up new ways to handle the matchup. Fireballs won't do it. Overall, 65:35 Sheik. Worse than Mega Man, who people cite as the worst. Yeah, this one is true too even though some proclaim "people overblow the Concon vs Zero match". Nah. [People only overblow the Esam vs LarryLurr Samus vs Luigi match, but that's for another day...]

 

[pipex]

I would like to see rosalina and diddy next week. I think MUs should beggin with top tiers. Diddy is a fun match up and rosalina, well... u know > Sorry for the bad english.

 

[pipex]

Rosalina and Diddy. Rosalina well, you know... , and diddy, I think the MU is very fun. Plus we should discuss about TT first IMO

 

[TriTails]

I'll update the OP after I get my hands on my laptop.

For now, time to discuss Ness and Mega Man.

Vote for the next characters in the general MU thread.

And anyone have an opinion on Luigi vs Falcon customs?

And plz forgive the untidy post because I'm on my phone right now.

 

[Luco]

Hai guys!

I'll keep tabs over here as well as in our thread, but I warn you that less Ness mains will probably post here as opposed to in our own boards, so don't mind me if I happen to quote a post or two. Or if enough Ness mains are active here then yay! We're both discussing each other at the same time, so I recommend for us you also check out this thread to see what we've had to say about this MU.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-discussion-luigi.406784/

Something else that's relevant to this discussion, you may scoff at it but it's ultra useful, so I'd advise you check it out - is Ness' Bthrow kill percents on Luigi, which if you look at this thread you'll find are 94%, 130% and 156% from the close side of FD, centre and far side respectively.

http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/

I've been out of the competitive meta for a long time, so I'll be happier to sit by and help facilitate the discussion and just give my opinions here and there as they come to me. <3

 

[MonkeyArms]

And anyone have an opinion on Luigi vs Falcon customs?

Well, the only thing falcon really gets from customs is the dash punch, which would make his recovery slightly better. Also the up b with no grab box. I might take it down a noch if I played the match up, but I really haven't.

 

[lijero13ss]

From my experiences playing Ness players (fow and nakat for example, but on wifi):

Ness seems like a MU that is in our favor, but barely. Like a 55:45 type of advantage. Some things I've noted that Ness gives us problems with are:

Up B completely wrecks Luigi in the air unless Luigi can Nair through the head of the UP B
Ness can Nair out of some of our combos
Ness bthrow kills ~123 (according to ness boards)
Landing w/ Uair makes it hard to punish if we dont powershield due to shield pushback
His dsmash can clip us at the ledge when we try to Up B
PSI Magnet eats fireballs safely from certain distances

However, with Luigi:

We can dthrow combo him pretty well, despite his nair potentially giving us some issues
Powershielding a pk fire is a free grab
Although risky, you can hit him out of his Up B and gimp him
And some other things i cant come up with off the top of my head.

On another note, I find that Ness and Luigi trade hits a lot in the air, which makes damage pretty close to where Ness can be at down throw cyclone kill % before we become backthrow kill % unless we hang around the edge

So overall, IMO, both ness and luigi can rack up % with ease, have a kill throw around the same %, and both have gimpable recoveries. Ness has the tools to stop some luigi things, but luigi's combo game and damage output is so strong that it slightly beats out Ness's.

So my overall thoughts: 55:45 Luigi favor.

 

[yoshi8984]

I'll just recap what I said in the Ness boards to make it more convenient for y'all to read~

I do have a (rotation) match here though (REMINDER THIS WAS BEFORE MAGNET BUFF).

(FYI I don't have an opinion with customs tho)
==

So, these guys basically got the same plan; they want to get in, grab you and combo you, then net the KO with a grab (setup) or one of their beloved aerials. But who does that better? That goes to Luigi. And let me tell you, it's a pretty stressful MU for both sides lol. Especially when they both have rage. XD

The thing is, Luigi gets a LOT more from a grab compared to Ness, AND can set them up easier (starting from Fireball, Jab, Nair or U-Tilt); whereas if Ness gets a grab he probably only gets like a D-Throw > Fair/Uair/Nair at best. Luigi can combo break out of Ness' combos with his beloved Nair. Ness on the other hand can't really retaliate without the risk of punishment and if he tries getting overzealous with his combo, he'll just get hit. And he REALLY doesn't want to trade with Luigi. In addition, he doesn't quite have a reliable setup move into Grab (PKF is very risky to throw out and also you can just DI away and Double Jump out of it). He also can't just sit in shield waiting for a mistake b/c Luigi's grab game is hella good so he has to rely on tomahawking to get one. In fact, I think shield should only ever be used if Luigi is in the air. =P

Also baiting an airdodge isn't a bad option either; if you'll see in the match vs Colin we both got baited into airdodging and both got Nair'd for it lol.

Fortunately for us, we can deal with Fireballs a bit easier compared to the rest of the cast; the Magnet is now quick and we can cancel the endlag with it into a jump, spotdodge or roll (and apparently U-Smash but I can't test it lol) and heal a decent amount (like 9%?). In addition, a rising Nair from us or hitting with Bair on shield (unless powershielded) is safe on shield for the most part, which will be his main tools to get in some damage this MU and Luigi does SLIDE when those hit on shield. Unlike most other MUs, Ness' Fair isn't useful here since trading with Luigi isn't a great idea (and they WILL). However, sometimes Ness players just mindlessly throw out a wall of Bairs; if you see him do a 2nd one as he's falling you can send a Fireball.

In addition for us, Luigi in the air, ESPECIALLY without a Double Jump and/or offstage is PKT bait. I've gotten away with throwing out many PKTs; he has to either airdodge (if Ness knows what he's doing and knows how to follow you with it this isn't practical since he'll tailwhip around the airdodge and then hit with the head), Nair the head of PKT or get hit, and if you get hit it'll probs allow him to rinse and repeat lol

In terms of getting the KO, Ness has his infamous B-Throw, but Bair and Uair aren't bad options either. Nair can set up for juggles, and depending on position and the angle PKT is sent, Ness can do PKT and bait an airdodge to do an aerial. D-Smash also sends you on a nasty angle and is especially useful if you get ledge trumped by us. However, Luigi's options aren't something to overlook either; D-Throw > Cyclone/Bair is also a great option for you guys. U-Smash is also a solid one and hell your other Smashes too. D-Smash has less endlag then it looks (not the most reliable one tho) and there's your scary hand chop of death. You can also gimp us (albeit risky) as we recover, but we can do the same to you with tailwhipping from PKT. It's ESPECIALLY important for you to save your double jump so you don't get screwed over by tailwhipping.

Speaking of recovery, some Nesses like to double jump then PKT/PKF just above the ledge, which can throw you off guard, but if you read it you can punish with a Smash. Others like to Double Jump > Airdodge/Fair back there (again I advise for Ness to not Fair), or just sweetspot the ledge, but you can always read one of these and punish hard. Luigi's recovery is quite linear as well though, and hell Ness can send a PK Flash coming your way if he's gutsy enough (although you can probs shoryuken him if he gets overzealous and you're not THAT far enough to recover ).

For stages, I'd ban Battlefield since Luigi has a field day there with those aerials and your D-Throw can set up for the Fireball lock there, which is scary. Ness hates Lylat, but I'm not sure you'd want your Fireballs getting screwed up (either going over Ness or just hitting the stage lol) and perhaps your D-Throw combos? I don't own a Wii U so I'm not sure if it does screw up combos there lol (I've still gone to tourneys and done well tho but that's not the point xD). I think Halberd might be worth banning just for its low ceiling as well. Other than that the rest of the neutrals can go either way. I do LOVE Delfino though since I can kinda shark comfortably there and recovery isn't much of a worry (but I see Luigi getting benefits there as well, not as much though).

==

In the end I'd probs say this MU goes to Luigi's favor, JUST slightly though (like 53:47) for having superior frame data overall and making one of Ness' main aerials (Fair) impractical, but honestly it can go either way and like I said, it's a pretty stressful MU and I have to play VERY differently. =P

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Seriously...What can we do here? Pellets stop EVERYTHING. Cyclone can withstand 1 pellet before being knocked out. Nair can stand 1-2 when the strong hitbox is out. Bair can stand 1-2. But pretty much Mega Man can harass Luigi to no end here. Luigi's floatiness kills him. Mega Man can just jump up and down spamming pellets and Luigi will constantly struggle to get in. The key for Mega Man is to mix up his pellet patterns and keep space. The key for Luigi is to still find the pattern and slowly work your way in by shielding and walking. Mega Man can't keep a constant barrage of pellets so there will be short bursts of time when you can inch in.

As Luigi, be careful to keep your eyes open. Don't keep up your shield and allow Mega Man to grab you. That will let him reset the space and you'll have to start over. Also watch your shield health. Once you're in, you most likely will have stage position. Keep Mega Man in the corner and stay in his face. Luigi's boxing skills are top tier and Mega Man can't fight up close because of laggy moves. He has no GTFO move. Pellets don't push far enough. Sweetspot Nair is a decent option because it will knock you back.

His heavy body allows for heavily damaging combos at low percent but we also can't rely on Dthrow->Cyclone to kill at a decent percent. Dthrow->Bair will be our best kill option from a throw. At higher percents Mega Man will be looking for Usmash, Bair, Utilt, or Dsmash kills. This is your opportunity to take advantage of the gameplay change and get damage or a kill. Super patience is key in this MU.

Mega Man edgeguards us very well. He can recover from very far away. His disjointed Bair destroys Missile. He can cover all of Luigi's recovery options fairly easy. Try to be unpredictable if possible. Mega Man's Up B has no hitbox but he can still act out it. This is good because we can easily intercept the initial Up B but he can defend himself after. He can also mix up his recovery by using his Up B first then his double jump. Watch out for that.

IMO, Mega Man can be very hard or not so bad depending on who's using him. Most Mega Mans I fight are fairly easy because they don't abuse pellets like they should against Luigi. Those players make it so much easier to get in and do stuff. Once I'm in then it's trouble for Mega Man. ScAtt is in my region and his Mega Man is the only one I can't beat. He abuses pellets and make it seem almost impossible to approach. Players who play that way make it very very tough.
A Mega Man who plays optimal: 70/30 Mega Man

 

[ENKER]

Would you consider Mega's UpB a "GFTO?" I use it to escape when things get too hairy against many characters. I ask because I don't know how useful this would be in this MU as I haven't fought a solid Luigi since I adopted this tactic.

 

[Deleted member]

Seriously...What can we do here? Pellets stop EVERYTHING. Cyclone can withstand 1 pellet before being knocked out. Nair can stand 1-2 when the strong hitbox is out. Bair can stand 1-2. But pretty much Mega Man can harass Luigi to no end here. Luigi's floatiness kills him. Mega Man can just jump up and down spamming pellets and Luigi will constantly struggle to get in. The key for Mega Man is to mix up his pellet patterns and keep space. The key for Luigi is to still find the pattern and slowly work your way in by shielding and walking. Mega Man can't keep a constant barrage of pellets so there will be short bursts of time when you can inch in.

As Luigi, be careful to keep your eyes open. Don't keep up your shield and allow Mega Man to grab you. That will let him reset the space and you'll have to start over. Also watch your shield health. Once you're in, you most likely will have stage position. Keep Mega Man in the corner and stay in his face. Luigi's boxing skills are top tier and Mega Man can't fight up close because of laggy moves. He has no GTFO move. Pellets don't push far enough. Sweetspot Nair is a decent option because it will knock you back.

His heavy body allows for heavily damaging combos at low percent but we also can't rely on Dthrow->Cyclone to kill at a decent percent. Dthrow->Bair will be our best kill option from a throw. At higher percents Mega Man will be looking for Usmash, Bair, Utilt, or Dsmash kills. This is your opportunity to take advantage of the gameplay change and get damage or a kill. Super patience is key in this MU.

Mega Man edgeguards us very well. He can recover from very far away. His disjointed Bair destroys Missile. He can cover all of Luigi's recovery options fairly easy. Try to be unpredictable if possible. Mega Man's Up B has no hitbox but he can still act out it. This is good because we can easily intercept the initial Up B but he can defend himself after. He can also mix up his recovery by using his Up B first then his double jump. Watch out for that.

IMO, Mega Man can be very hard or not so bad depending on who's using him. Most Mega Mans I fight are fairly easy because they don't abuse pellets like they should against Luigi. Those players make it so much easier to get in and do stuff. Once I'm in then it's trouble for Mega Man. ScAtt is in my region and his Mega Man is the only one I can't beat. He abuses pellets and make it seem almost impossible to approach. Players who play that way make it very very tough.
A Mega Man who plays optimal: 70/30 Mega Man

Playing a lot of Luigi's, this is very, very accurate. And the matchup can be very wavering.

A good Luigi will understand that Mega's lemons will attempt to keep Weegee out, so good Weegee's will be very patient in this matchup. Typically, Mega Man will be throwing out every little thing he can to keep Weegee out, so if you see all of this and catch him, you can get easy combos, considering Mega Man is heavy. However, do keep in mind, as my friend ENKER noted, Rush can get us out of some sticky combos, every now and then. But Mega Man doesn't always have safe landings. If Luigi is patient enough, he can follow Mega Man until he lands.

Mega Man will usually try to land with one lemon and short hop away, or they will land with leaf shield. Which can be good and bad. If you time a grab right, the leaf shield can be negated.

Basically, if Mega Man plays optimally, this MU can be in his favor. Optimally, meaning, successfully keeping Luigi out and capitalizing for the KO.

But if Luigi plays optimally and patiently, I think it can be in Luigi's favor, 60/40 or 65/35. It is frustrating and tough for Luigi, but not unwinnable, with a lot of patience.

 

[MonkeyArms]

:

Advantages for : Down B can go through leaf shield. Has a decent time edge guarding Mega Man. ...welp. What else can I really put here?

Advantages for : Pellets. Lots and lots of pellets. Used all your pellets? Up b out and put yourself in a leaf shield. Don't forget to get a grab with it. Oh, also, if Luigi has the bright idea to get away from you, use your side b and neutral b. If you need a kill option, you can always back throw and glide toss. Don't forget to keep Luigi in the air for years with up air, forcing him to grab the ledge. Luigi got you in down throw combos? Up b. Luigi got a cyclone on you near the top? Just smash di and di right and you'll be living for quite a while. Your back air and down air are both extremely good at edge guarding Luigi too.

Disadvantages for : Pretty much has to wait for the Mega Man to screw something up to even do anything to him.|

Disadvantages for : Cyclone spike kills early.

Sounds like an amazing match up for Luigi! 25:75 Mega Man's favor.

BUT WITH CUSTOMS!

Mega man combo breaks with an up b that has a hitbox. His side b can space Luigi out even more now and pop him up in the air for up air set ups, allowing him to kill Luigi early. The petal shield thing is also even better for Mega Man, as he never uses it as a projectile. Lets also throw in some bombs with neutral b.

...............15:85. Yes. I just said that. It's that bad.