Luigi Changes, Round 1.1.1

[MonkeyArms]

What?!?!? Luigi has a super quick, super safe upsmash that he can in large part spam. One of the best upsmashes in the game. That's an amazing kill move.

Luigi absolutely can't complain about trouble killing, there's lots and lots of other characters in the cast who actually have to get a solid read for the kill because they get punished hard for missing smash attacks, because their smashes aren't safe. Luigi requires more creativity now, but he still has safe kill options.

Overall, I think there's a lot of overreaction to the nerf. Luigi is still a great character. His combo game is still amazing, he just doesn't have a braindead dthrow to cyclone kill confirm. Gonna have to think and work a little harder for the kill.

I doubt he's any longer top 5, but I personally don't see him sliding out of top 15. We'll have to see what the top Luigi mains can do with him in the next few months, should be exciting to watch.

The only real reliable way to get a kill is to edge guard. Up smash is safe, but its a punish move. And with Luigi's low traction, its pretty hard to connect.

The most reliable kill move onstage is actually back air.

 

[Grimtixx]

Even though I'm a Lucas main, I'm still rooting for you guys. Luigi still has amazing frame data on most of his moves plus he's gained some new tools to use, so I'm hoping this isn't the end of the world. Although I didn't really like fighting Luigi before, him getting nerfed over Sheik is by far one of the silliest things I've seen. She should have had at least her F-Air autocancel adjusted. Seriously.

 

[The_Pizza_Guy]

from what ive been testing, luigis kill percents are much more higher than before, but a good advice from what i see on FG and training is to make as much damage as you can , then U-throw for the kill, with rage (125-140%) luigi kills light characters like jiggly at 130% and heavy ones like ganon or bowser at 170% , thinking on how much long will be every stock without the cyclone kill earlier, if the throw doesnt kill, punish the landing.

 

[L∈O]

Hello my fellow Luigi mains...

I wasn't aware that they would launch a patch today...

After waking up, I came here and got really scared after reading that Luigi was nerfed. I turned on the game so I could test him, and I must say, I'm completely devastated...

Although this opens some new possible follow-ups, they're really far away from compensating the general nerf. For me, Luigi has lost mostly of what made him a good character. Now matchups like Sheik and Rosalina are nothing but unduable, specially at high level...

My first tourney which I was a TO was just 4 days ago, and I was really excited in doing things different, and maybe even travelling out-of-state if everything went fine...

But today was a fatal strike, a severe wound. I fell like Sakurai stabbed me on my back, like life punched me right on my chin. This patch took away my happiness of playing the game. Before it, I had hopes of doing stuff better, meeting other nice people and having really good times, but now all these hopes are gone...

So, I'm retiring from competitive Smash 4 after today. One of the few things I have pleasure at doing now it's gone. This is painful for me, but unfortunately I can't focus on it anymore...

:'(

 

[MarioMeteor]

What?!?!? Luigi has a super quick, super safe upsmash that he can in large part spam. One of the best upsmashes in the game. That's an amazing kill move.

Luigi absolutely can't complain about trouble killing, there's lots and lots of other characters in the cast who actually have to get a solid read for the kill because they get punished hard for missing smash attacks, because their smashes aren't safe. Luigi requires more creativity now, but he still has safe kill options.

Overall, I think there's a lot of overreaction to the nerf. Luigi is still a great character. His combo game is still amazing, he just doesn't have a braindead dthrow to cyclone kill confirm. Gonna have to think and work a little harder for the kill.

I doubt he's any longer top 5, but I personally don't see him sliding out of top 15. We'll have to see what the top Luigi mains can do with him in the next few months, should be exciting to watch.

From the back only. If you decide not work the poor C-Stick like a slave however, it won't be uncommon to see opponents live well beyond 100%. I don't think you realize exactly how much Luigi lost with this nerf.
He can no longer:
• Down throw to neutral air - very reliable kill combo that was DI-dependent and not overwhelmingly strong.
• Down throw to down air - semi-reliable kill combo that was entirely DI-dependent and required precision.
• Down throw to back air - frankly, I won't miss this one too much, but it was useful for racking up damage and reading DI.
• Down throw to FJP - very useful (and flashy combo) that was pretty much Luigi's only other surefire way off taking off stocks besides Cyclone.
You're delirious if you think this nerf was small.

 

[Luig]

What?!?!? Luigi has a super quick, super safe upsmash that he can in large part spam. One of the best upsmashes in the game. That's an amazing kill move.

Luigi absolutely can't complain about trouble killing, there's lots and lots of other characters in the cast who actually have to get a solid read for the kill because they get punished hard for missing smash attacks, because their smashes aren't safe. Luigi requires more creativity now, but he still has safe kill options.

Overall, I think there's a lot of overreaction to the nerf. Luigi is still a great character. His combo game is still amazing, he just doesn't have a braindead dthrow to cyclone kill confirm. Gonna have to think and work a little harder for the kill.

I doubt he's any longer top 5, but I personally don't see him sliding out of top 15. We'll have to see what the top Luigi mains can do with him in the next few months, should be exciting to watch.

I kinda agree with you, but I don't think Luigi was ever top 5.
Luigi now has a much harder time killing, and while Luigi's up smash is good, it isn't mario's.

Now we always have up throw with rage.

 

[JohnnyB]

Shield stun did get increased with this patch so despite the fact that Luigi gets less reward off of grabs, maybe he will have a slightly easier time getting grabs?

I'm looking real hard for that silver lining =(

 

[Space Stranger]

The nerfs to D-Throw and cyclone definitely hurt but we can get through this, bros.

Like others have said, Shiek and ElsaLuma will be a bit more challenging MU. Not even considering dropping my main man in green despite the [unneeded] changes.

 

[MarioMeteor]

We can only pray something bigger is coming on the 3rd, otherwise I fear the Year of Luigi might finally be over.

 

[L∈O]

The nerfs to D-Throw and cyclone definitely hurt but we can get through this, bros.

Like others have said, Shiek and ElsaLuma will be a bit more challenging MU. Not even considering dropping my main man in green despite the [unneeded] changes.

No we can't!

Trust on me, Luigi now is a fallen hero, he wasn't even totally viable before, now he isn't at all...

And it's not just Sheik and Rosa, all his matchups get worse, some of them much worse. Snap out of this damn hopeful thought and face reality!

 

[Pyr]

No we can't!

Trust on me, Luigi now is a fallen hero, he wasn't even totally viable before, now he isn't at all...

And it's not just Sheik and Rosa, all his matchups get worse, some of them much worse. Snap out of this damn hopeful thought and face reality!

You need to calm down. Lol. We made it through Brawl Luigi. We can make it through this.

 

[Space Stranger]

No we can't!

Trust on me, Luigi now is a fallen hero, he wasn't even totally viable before, now he isn't at all...

And it's not just Sheik and Rosa, all his matchups get worse, some of them much worse. Snap out of this damn hopeful thought and face reality!

Removal of kill potential =/= The end is nigh

I think you're overreacting to this. Yes, the reality is that Luigi lost a major kill move with the D-throw nerf and will likely struggle against Rosa and Sheik, to name a few. However, the universal shield change and tools at his disposal still provide hmi with other venues that ipen the potential for new combos. Why do you have to drop a hobby you enjoy playing just because of a change from 1.1.0? To be honest, Luigi was never top 3 (or top 5 if you really want to go that far) but he still has options available to still make him viable over others.

In conclusion,

"Calm down."

 

[Deleted member]

Luigi's nerfs aren't the end of the world. It sucks that he lost his kill options from his down throw, but he still has a lot of tools at his disposal. To be honest, fighting as him is a bit more enjoyable now, since battles are a lot more analytical.

Luigi is still perfectly viable, but fighting certain characters now will be hard...

I'm just glad that bandwagoners will either move on or put in serious effort with him.

 

[Luig]

Now that I think about it, if we're playing with customs, mach cyclone might be a better option as it helps Luigi's bad recovery, and kills like doc's version.

 

[MonkeyArms]

If you don't like the new Luigi, pick up Doctor Mario.
If you don't like Doctor Mario, pick up Diddy.
If you don't like Diddy, pick up Falcon.
Etc.

 

[Luig]

If you don't like the new Luigi, pick up Doctor Mario.
If you don't like Doctor Mario, pick up Diddy.
If you don't like Diddy, pick up Falcon.
Etc.

Eventually, it ends at shiek.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If you don't like the new Luigi, pick up Doctor Mario.
If you don't like Doctor Mario, pick up Diddy.
If you don't like Diddy, pick up Falcon.
Etc.

If you don't like losing, pick up Sheik.

You need to calm down. Lol. We made it through Brawl Luigi. We can make it through this.

I might go so far as to say Brawl Luigi was better than this. At least Brawl Luigi could kill and had a good recovery.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I might go so far as to say Brawl Luigi was better than this. At least Brawl Luigi could kill and had a good recovery.

You have a point. Back air has faster endlag in brawl as well as his down air killing and I believe less lag on fireball. His up b is also safer but with less reward. The thing about smash is all these combos and percent really don't matter without kill options, and Lui is just a super risky pick at how unconsistent he's going to be now. With his only real good killing aerial being back air and his only good consistent grounded move being up smash (which both don't kill that early) Luigi is now a character that relies solely on reads, edge guards, and wide openings to get kills.
Earlier, Luigi was a high tier. Now, Luigi is kind of trash.

 

[Pyr]

The over-reactions are real. =/

I refuse to believe you all were THAT heavily reliant in D-Throw as a kill confirm.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The over-reactions are real. =/

I refuse to believe you all were THAT heavily reliant in D-Throw as a kill confirm.

Up smash and down throw. That's all we had. Honestly, you were doing something wrong if you can't grasp the severity of this.

You have a point. Back air has faster endlag in brawl as well as his down air killing and I believe less lag on fireball. His up b is also safer but with less reward. The thing about smash is all these combos and percent really don't matter without kill options, and Lui is just a super risky pick at how unconsistent he's going to be now. With his only real good killing aerial being back air and his only good consistent grounded move being up smash (which both don't kill that early) Luigi is now a character that relies solely on reads, edge guards, and wide openings to get kills.
Earlier, Luigi was a high tier. Now, Luigi is kind of trash.

His forward smash and neutral air were also absurdly strong, late neutral air comboed into everything in the goddamn world, he could do two neutral airs in a short hop, so no landing was unsafe, and he had a higher chance of misfiring. So yeah, Brawl Luigi was probably better. I definitely wouldn't call him trash, through. His frame data is too good for him to be trash. But he undeniably lost everything that made him what he is, or rather, what he was. In a way, he's kind of like Sheik, only not broken and slower. And not braindead. And all around less cancerous. I'm just giving into salt, now. Maybe he's more comparable to Jigglypuff. A sad memory of what once was...

 

[Xephilon]

The over-reactions are real. =/

I refuse to believe you all were THAT heavily reliant in D-Throw as a kill confirm.

Im with you on this one. Was the nerf strong? Yes, yes it was. Will it kill Luigi? No, not even close. If you solely depended on Dthrow for everything then you weren't exactly a good Luigi to begin with. We were dealt certain cards and now we have to play with them. This New Luigi dthrow might take some time getting used to but we WILL prevail! The combos are still there, just not as easy to pull off at higher percents, that's all.

At later percents, we're gonna have to rely more on reads and spacing rather than just dthrowing to victory. So, who's ready to put in some work?!

 

[MarioMeteor]

But Sheik and Zero Suit Samus don't have to put in work...

 

[MonkeyArms]

The over-reactions are real. =/

I refuse to believe you all were THAT heavily reliant in D-Throw as a kill confirm.

I would like my character to actually have kill combos with throws. Most high tiers have them. Without them, you usually fall in the low tier area. Anyways, the main thing is Luigi could actually reliably kill at 110 percent. Now its like 140, and its harder to get too.

Up smash and down throw. That's all we had. Honestly, you were doing something wrong if you can't grasp the severity of this.

His forward smash and neutral air were also absurdly strong, late neutral air comboed into everything in the goddamn world, he could do two neutral airs in a short hop, so no landing was unsafe, and he had a higher chance of misfiring. So yeah, Brawl Luigi was probably better. I definitely wouldn't call him trash, through. His frame data is too good for him to be trash. But he undeniably lost everything that made him what he is, or rather, what he was. In a way, he's kind of like Sheik, only not broken and slower. And not braindead. And all around less cancerous. I'm just giving into salt, now. Maybe he's more comparable to Jigglypuff. A sad memory of what once was...

Luigi is just "trash" from a Lucina like stand point. Why would I play Luigi when I could play Doctor Mario, who is basically the same character just better? Doc has better edge guards, kill confirms off down throw, more rewarding reads, a more likely better nuetral, earlier kills, and just plain out better overrall.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi is just "trash" from a Lucina like stand point. Why would I play Luigi when I could play Doctor Mario, who is basically the same character just better? Doc has better edge guards, kill confirms off down throw, more rewarding reads, a more likely better nuetral, earlier kills, and just plain out better overrall.

Lucina is bad because she's just Marth, who's already bad, without the ability to kill at absurd percents. Doc is a good character, but he's less mobile, has less combos, and has an even worse recovery than Luigi. (Remember when Luigi had the recovery of the gods)? I don't think the two are similar enough to be compared, but Doc may or may not be the better character as of now. I'd also like to point out that Doc does not have a better edgeguarding game than Luigi. The Green Thunder may have lost a lot, but he's still a terror of an edgeguarder, especially with the better down air.

 

[Xephilon]

But Sheik and Zero Suit Samus don't have to put in work...

Then by all means, go change to Sheik or ZSS. I come from the Link boards where if I wanted my character to win, I had to work for it. So you have two choices, sit here and cry nerfs or accept them and learn what to do with said nerfs.

 

[Pyr]

Up smash and down throw. That's all we had. Honestly, you were doing something wrong if you can't grasp the severity of this.

If you think that's all we had and currently have, then you don't know this character very well. I grasp the severity: we lost a guaranteed kill option. As big as that is, we gained from it, too. Aka better combos on fast fallers/Sheik early.

The Jab resets are still in.
The Fireball setups are still in.
The Down-B intentional release is still in.
The Nair soft hit setups are still in.
U-Tilt and Up-air shenanigans are still in.
Back Throw is still in.
Dair Spike from throw is still in.
$5 slices are still in.
Down-B gimps are still in.
Shield Break setups are still in.
In fact, his 2,000,000 traps are still in.
Bair in and of itself is still in.
Our frame 6 Down Smash is still in
Our F-Smash is still in.
The Jab 50/50 is still in. (and will added better on shield!)
PP Shenanigans are still in.

Stop being so god damn doom and gloom. We lost a guarantee and kept the 500 setups.

I would like my character to actually have kill combos with throws. Most high tiers have them. Without them, you usually fall in the low tier area. Anyways, the main thing is Luigi could actually reliably kill at 110 percent. Now its like 140, and its harder to get too.

You'd like your character to be easy. I'm sorry you have to earn the wins a bit more now.

Of all the top tiers, I can't think of a single character that has a guaranteed thing that goes to a kill. There are a ton of 50/50s and "****, I ****ed my DI" kills, but, besides that, they aren't really there or are extremely matchup specific. This isn't counting things like Ness's back thrown, which kills outright.


Guys, real talk. If this change is enough to make people live past 140 consistently against you, you relied on the cheese too much and you need to re-examine your gameplay with this character.

 

[MonkeyArms]

If you think that's all we had and currently have, then you don't know this character very well. I grasp the severity: we lost a guaranteed kill option. As big as that is, we gained from it, too. Aka better combos on fast fallers/Sheik early.

The Jab resets are still in.
The Fireball setups are still in.
The Down-B intentional release is still in.
The Nair soft hit setups are still in.
U-Tilt and Up-air shenanigans are still in.
Back Throw is still in.
Dair Spike from throw is still in.
$5 slices are still in.
Down-B gimps are still in.
Shield Break setups are still in.
In fact, his 2,000,000 traps are still in.
Bair in and of itself is still in.
Our frame 6 Down Smash is still in
Our F-Smash is still in.
The Jab 50/50 is still in. (and will added better on shield!)
PP Shenanigans are still in.

Stop being so god damn doom and gloom. We lost a guarantee and kept the 500 setups.



You'd like your character to be easy. I'm sorry you have to earn the wins a bit more now.

Of all the top tiers, I can't think of a single character that has a guaranteed thing that goes to a kill. There are a ton of 50/50s and "****, I ****ed my DI" kills, but, besides that, they aren't really there or are extremely matchup specific. This isn't counting things like Ness's back thrown, which kills outright.


Guys, real talk. If this change is enough to make people live past 140 consistently against you, you relied on the cheese too much and you need to re-examine your gameplay with this character.

Oooor maybe you should learn that up smash doesn't kill until about 135, and the only things luigi has to kill before that are cyclone setups (which the cyclone is really inconsistent at killing percents), f-smash, up b, a lucky back throw position, the back hit of down smash, and a lucky back air position.

You don't understand that Luigi is heavily reliant on his opponent messing up to get a kill.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Then by all means, go change to Sheik or ZSS. I come from the Link boards where if I wanted my character to win, I had to work for it. So you have two choices, sit here and cry nerfs or accept them and learn what to do with said nerfs.

Ew, gross, no, I don't like cancer. The difference between Luigi and Link is that Luigi was actually good at some point and time. Not just in this game, in the series. You're used to being bad, we aren't.

If you think that's all we had and currently have, then you don't know this character very well. I grasp the severity: we lost a guaranteed kill option. As big as that is, we gained from it, too. Aka better combos on fast fallers/Sheik early.

The Jab resets are still in.
The Fireball setups are still in.
The Down-B intentional release is still in.
The Nair soft hit setups are still in.
U-Tilt and Up-air shenanigans are still in.
Back Throw is still in.
Dair Spike from throw is still in.
$5 slices are still in.
Down-B gimps are still in.
Shield Break setups are still in.
In fact, his 2,000,000 traps are still in.
Bair in and of itself is still in.
Our frame 6 Down Smash is still in
Our F-Smash is still in.
The Jab 50/50 is still in. (and will added better on shield!)
PP Shenanigans are still in.

Stop being so god damn doom and gloom. We lost a guarantee and kept the 500 setups.

It sounds to me like you think that just because something is arguably too good, we shouldn't use it. If someone gives me $1,000,000, I'm going to spend it like any normal human being. If, one random day, you suddenly took back every last remaining bit, I'm understandably going to be very upset. I'm not going to go "Oh, hey, I lost a million dollars, easy come, easy go." and merrily skip home, I'm going to go "The ****? What did you do that for?" Well, in reality my reaction would involve a lot more profanity, but I digress. Point is, we lost a ****load, a one million dollar ****load, and none of the pocket change we have scrounged together is enough to make that up. I'm aware of every penny in my wallet, but you're just crazy if you think it's comparable to the fortune I had before.

 

[Luig]

How about I take away the salt and we talk like normal people?
Yes, brawl luigi was better in some ways. Not all.

Luigi's upsmash, while good, is not mario tier.

Dthrow was where we got most of our kills from, but with new new dthrow, we can't get kills in with a character that has a hard time getting in.
However, some people are overreacting.
We're still high tier.
Cyclone still kills really early if catch someone's airdodge, you can still combo at low percent, fjp still has a bigger and stronger hitbox.
We got nerfed pretty significantly, but some people need to stop being saltines.

 

[MonkeyArms]

How about I take away the salt and we talk like normal people?
Yes, brawl luigi was better in some ways. Not all.

Luigi's upsmash, while good, is not mario tier.

Dthrow was where we got most of our kills from, but with new new dthrow, we can't get kills in with a character that has a hard time getting in.
However, some people are overreacting.
We're still high tier.
Cyclone still kills really early if catch someone's airdodge, you can still combo at low percent, fjp still has a bigger and stronger hitbox.
We got nerfed pretty significantly, but some people need to stop being saltines.

I just play Luigi and feel like I'm playing an unfinished character now.

 

[Luig]

Though the dthrow force of habit is real.

 

[L∈O]

For ****'s sakes...

You guys will see, the facts will speak by their own...

Luigi is done, MarioMeteor and MonkeyArms are totally right on their explanations...

 

[Pyr]

Ew, gross, no, I don't like cancer. The difference between Luigi and Link is that Luigi was actually good at some point and time. Not just in this game, in the series. You're used to being bad, we aren't.

It sounds to me like you think that just because something is arguably too good, we shouldn't use it. If someone gives me $1,000,000, I'm going to spend it like any normal human being. If, one random day, you suddenly took back every last remaining bit, I'm understandably going to be very upset. I'm not going to go "Oh, hey, I lost a million dollars, easy come, easy go." and merrily skip home, I'm going to go "The ****? What did you do that for?" Well, in reality my reaction would involve a lot more profanity, but I digress. Point is, we lost a ****load, a one million dollar ****load, and none of the pocket change we have scrounged together is enough to make that up. I'm aware of every penny in my wallet, but you're just crazy if you think it's comparable to the fortune I had before.

That's the problem. You're defeated because you lost something. I understand way. Getting a kill off of a frame 6/8 option, that ignores shields, was very strong. And it's kinda gone, but kinda not. Depends on the matchup and blah blah blah.

But crying about a change doesn't develop a character. I've no respect for people who jump to conclusions like this. I had 5 years of it in League (lol Kayle), and it's grown old and stale.

15. That's the number of different setups that lead to kills in some way. We lost 1/16 of our setups. Maybe it's time to put some work into the other 15, eh? And those are just the ones I've personally found.

Or we can sit down and pout that our option was taken away and do nothing. Least we'll have some fond memories.

Oooor maybe you should learn that up smash doesn't kill until about 135, and the only things luigi has to kill before that are cyclone setups (which the cyclone is really inconsistent at killing percents), f-smash, up b, a lucky back throw position, the back hit of down smash, and a lucky back air position.

You don't understand that Luigi is heavily reliant on his opponent messing up to get a kill.

All kills come because the opponent messed up in some way. You think they're giving us things for free? Frame 2/6/8 setups that lead to the down-b kill was amazing and let the mess-ups be small. But, you know what? The frame 2 setup (jab) still exists. Every single Smash is just outside of the scope of human reaction time. Our slowest smash is frame 12. You're telling me that we're not going to be able to make that work? Come on.

For ****'s sakes...

You guys will see, the facts will speak by their own...

Luigi is done, MarioMeteor and MonkeyArms are totally right on their explanations...

If all Luigi was to you was a throw-combo-machine, then the character is ruined for you. I say good. To take a strong leg and to support it with a crutch only atrophies the leg slowly over time. Such an amazing disservice.

 

[MonkeyArms]

For ****'s sakes...

You guys will see, the facts will speak by their own...

Luigi is done, MarioMeteor and MonkeyArms are totally right on their explanations...

He's definitely not done. He just got the Diddy treatment. Except, with Luigi, he actually lost more options.

Its completely doable to win with this Luigi. The only real reason brawl's was worse was because other characters were broken.

Luigi doesn't get kills off his grabs early anymore, but he still has a strong pummel and gets stage controll and edge guard situations with his throws, which all in all isn't that bad.

I'm just pointing out this nerf definitely dropped him to somewhere around the mid tier. Any other tier is questionable.

We've gotten so used to down throw since the game came out and now we have to adjust to a different playstyle. The change feels so akward we feel like the character is bad now, when its just...akward. Isn't that the point of luigi?

 

[Luig]

That's the problem. You're defeated because you lost something. I understand way. Getting a kill off of a frame 6/8 option, that ignores shields, was very strong. And it's kinda gone, but kinda not. Depends on the matchup and blah blah blah.

But crying about a change doesn't develop a character. I've no respect for people who jump to conclusions like this. I had 5 years of it in League (lol Kayle), and it's grown old and stale.

15. That's the number of different setups that lead to kills in some way. We lost 1/16 of our setups. Maybe it's time to put some work into the other 15, eh? And those are just the ones I've personally found.

Or we can sit down and pout that our option was taken away and do nothing. Least we'll have some fond memories.



All kills come because the opponent messed up in some way. You think they're giving us things for free? Frame 2/6/8 setups that lead to the down-b kill was amazing and let the mess-ups be small. But, you know what? The frame 2 setup (jab) still exists. Every single Smash is just outside of the scope of human reaction time. Our slowest smash is frame 12. You're telling me that we're not going to be able to make that work? Come on.



If all Luigi was to you was a throw-combo-machine, then the character is ruined for you. I say good. To take a strong leg and to support it with a crutch only atrophies the leg slowly over time. Such an amazing disservice.

You speak the truth.

Luigi was not just a throw combo machine.

There's a little thing called "adapting" and if we keep whining, its never going to happen.

 

[GreenFlame]

I can't help but find these nerfs uncalled for. They're significant, but moreso to Luigi's ability to kill than his ability to rack up damage. Here's some things to consider:

• At mid-percents (beginning at around 18%(?)), D-throw still works almost normally, still possessing the ability to combo into all of Luigi's aerials (B-air and D-air being DI-dependent).
• While D-throw > F-air > F-air no longer works at 0%, D-throw > U-smash does which puts them at just the right damage for D-throw > F-air > F-air to work again. Basically, get in one D-throw > U-smash at 0 and you have your double F-airs back.
• D-throw > F-air > F-air > Grab, while it never really seemed to be a true combo(?), additionally also requires the opponent to DI downwards(?).
• D-throw > Fire Jump Punch doesn't seem to kill anymore due to its specific percentage range requirements. It was already difficult and risky to land, but due to the D-throw's alterations it now also requires said specific percentage range requirements. If the percent is too low, it doesn't work, and if the percent is too high (i.e percents where it would actually kill), it also doesn't work.
• Cyclone is more difficult to kill with and seems to be more inconsistent with its trapping.

Those are some of the key pointers of Luigi's changes. One of his key problems - getting the KO - has been magnified, with seemingly no compensation. It does not go well with his poor approach and we will have to wait and see how this affects his matchups. My personal opinion is that it will negatively affect his matchups with Sheik, Rosalina and Lucario, among others.

Perhaps this patch will sort the true Luigi-ers from the bandwagoners.

 

[Luig]

The reason the cyclone doesn't trap as well is because of increased hitlag, making it easier to sdi, and it has less kbg.

 

[BSP]

If Japan's input mattered THAT much, Pac-Man and Wario would've gotten nerfed a long time ago.

I'm complaining because I can, simple as that. It's pretty frustrating to see the character you put significant amounts of effort into get nerfed without compensation before he presents himself as a consistent threat. I discuss my ideas on what would make him better for the same reason: I just feel like discussing it.

I've been dealing with the nerfs since they've happened. Most of them happened early on, but I still play the character.

I play to his strengths, but the devs keep nerfing that strength without proper compensation. Pac-Man is a zoning character, but his zoning tools continue to be nerfed. It doesn't make much sense, especially when he's not a dominating character in the slightest.

Just to reiterate, buffs:

• Villager can't pocket trampoline. Big, but only affects 1 MU.
• Pellet heals for 2% instead of 1%. Slightly affects Rosalina MU, otherwise it's a very slight bonus
• Pac-Jump medium strength hit lasts a frame longer. Very slight buff.

Nerfs

• Nerfed galaxian, which I assume made it easier to clank with and nerfed damage output of a projectile that takes around 2 seconds to charge to, is easy to clank with or catch, and can be used against us.
• Trampoline bounce height for opponents. Lowered, directly hurting our zoning game for no reason.
• Hydrant HP increase makes impossible to instant launch unless we already have fruit in hand (locking us into it) or have a Key charged, thereby making easier for opponents to take control over. This one significantly nerfed Melon utility and directly hurt our zoning game. I'll admit, it makes setups easier, but I would've rather kept the instant launch option (only with a fresh Bair, mind you) and gotten used to using Uair for a setup hit.
• Ftilt frame data nerf
• Hydrant acting like a ledge when we run off does absolutely nothing except make it harder to do setups.
• Usmash ending lag increased significantly. This one was justified, but still.

All buffs have been very minor while every nerf has critically afffected our zoning game or KO potential/safety. Meanwhile Sheik can carry you offstage for free with loads of safety and ZSS has true combos into a flexible spike that KO's at relatively low %, and they're virtually untouched.

[COLLAPSE=Compared to a good character like Sonic...]

Buffs:

Dair IASA allowing him to use it from ledge height and not SD (bigger than any buff we've got lol)

Nerfs:

Spin dash damage
Bthrow knockback
Usmash KBG
Fsmash KBG

Like I said, our nerfs are comparable to a character that has actually been a consistent top 5 national/international threat from day 1.

[/COLLAPSE]

If this trend continues, I may drop him. It's becoming less and less worth the effort as everyone around him gets buffed, but most of their moveset can't be used against them. I want Pac-Man to do well competitively because I think most of the community sleeps on him, but it's hard to do that when the devs nerf your main strength while buffing everyone else. Again, all of our specials have counterplay and can be just as deadly to us as our opponents. Yet our grab remains god awful and our specials receive nerfs.



If I'm understanding this correctly, it's a (small...) buff. If the 5% hitbox happens later, I'm assuming the second strongest hitbox lasts for a frame longer, making it have more of a chance of connecting.

Make no mistake, Pac-Man has been hit HARD by patches too.

As for Luigi now, he's going to have problems similar to Mario. Getting the KO at high % will largely result from an error from the opponent. Now you have to try to force that error with one of the least mobile characters in the game. Luigi will probably end up bottom of high tier after this.

 

[kesterstudios]

It seems we having a debate on if luigi is still great character or a bad one.

With the nerf to down throw I honestly cant wait for smash 4 xanudu Tuesday next week, because if Boss is there, he could show us that luigi is still tournament viable or not. We'll see what happens...

In my opinion, I don't think the d-throw nerf makes luigi trash, you just have to work harder for the kill similar to what happened to diddy kong.

I also really like the dair and dsmash buff, good stuff there.

 

[Luig]

Also guys, save the drama for your MAMA LUIGI

Its just a patch. We'll probably get buffed in the next patch and this one will fade into obscurity.