Luigi Changes, Round 1.1.1

[Luig]

The audacity of people saying down throw wasn't nerfed in youtube comments.

 

[sims796]

People who said luigi will still be an amazing character after a nerfed dthrow will realize how stupid they actually are. Learn the character before you crying for a nerf. I love luigi, and he is still fun to play and is my main, but its no secret that he is nowhere near where he used to be prepatch.

So I'm stupid for believing that Luigi has stregnths outside of this nerf? No duh he isn't as good, doesn't mean he won't be an amazing character regardless.

 

[Green L]

Remember that even with out his kill confirms he still has all the elements of top tier characters.

You mean like mobility, speed, better traction, range, and good matchups? If so you are wrong, Luigi has none of those. I stopped playing luigi and picked up dr mario. I found out today that people really do underestimate this character.

 

[GreenFlame]

with down throw> up b as a close second.

Does this even kill anymore? I didn't get to test much yesterday, but when I did it seems that down-throw sends them too high for UpB when it would actually kill, only being landable at percents where UpB doesn't kill.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

So I'm stupid for believing that Luigi has stregnths outside of this nerf? No duh he isn't as good, doesn't mean he won't be an amazing character regardless.

I didn't say he did not have any strengths, I'm just saying that I feel like this nerf will hurt luigi more than any other nerf has hurt a character in the past. Im hoping that we can all advance the new luigi meta together

 

[Muddyk]

i've only dabbed a little in Luigi but oh my god, yall need to stop crying. I see everyone crying about how his bad matchups are gonna be worse, yall was looking for a BUFF to make luigi unstoppable or something. I think the down throw nerf was ok a bit harsh but manageable. I see p shielding will be very important for luigi now. also his smashes are godlike and almost unpunishable, his dsmash has so much pushback and shieldstun you can only barely punish it and his usmash is totally safe on shield.

It's the diddy boards all over again!!!

 

[leesinger]

Muddyk Please don't post in here if you are going to just generalize and not promote a discussion of some sort regarding the luigi nerfs. Luigi mains who are true to the charachter don't appreciate the whining any more than you do I'm sure, but theres no need for a post of this nature.

 

[Xephilon]

Does this even kill anymore? I didn't get to test much yesterday, but when I did it seems that down-throw sends them too high for UpB when it would actually kill, only being landable at percents where UpB doesn't kill.

Yeah dthrow -> Up B doesn't kill anymore. At best, its a good 20% damage at higher percents.

Now as for killing options, I go for Fsmash but I'll test each one and write the percents down.

Spoiler

*Note: All of these tests will be performed on Mario in Final Destination on the 3ds version (since I don't have Wii U)
*Note2: These will have NO DI and will probably include rage (since you know, if you set it 100% both you and the opponent will have 110%)

Usmash:
At the start of the move (behind Luigi) it killed at 122% onwards
In front of Luigi tho, it killed at 130%.

Dsmash:
In front of Luigi it killed at 150% as a star KO, getting it to the side of the stage near the ledge is also around the same percent (145% ish)
behind Luigi it killed at 117% in the center of the stage (sparks appear only after 120%+)
Behind Luigi near the ledge 115% (wow...2% difference...)

Up B:
Grounded killed at 65%! Earlier than expected!
Aerial Up B killed at around 110% (did it at half way point of Mario's jump)

Down B:
RIP...really, I'm not sure the exact percent but the move is best used after around 110% or around 120% to catch someone who's coming down after surviving an Usmash. For advanced players tho, you can use it for the spike hit box (I can't do that yet)

Bair:
Kills at 140% at the center of the stage
Kills at 120% at spawn point
Kills at 110% at the ledge

Other aerials and ground moves:
Really not worth mentioning, they all kill at over 190%+

Now for the one im REALLY impressed with. Guys, either I never noticed how powerful this move is or it got buffed HARD.

Fsmash:
-Normal Fsmash:
117% center of stage
103% at spawn point
92% at the ledge

-Angled downwards:
110% at the center of the stage
90% near ledge (spawn point)
80% at the ledge!

-Angeled upwards:
100% anywhere on the stage!

So yeah, there you go guys. In conclusion, I believe our best kill move is Fsmash. It comes out pretty fast and, if used correctly, can kill early as heck. Best way to use it IMO its the same way Pikachu mains use theirs, pivoting. Just tested it out and yeah, at 100% just pivot Upwards F-smash and bam, easy semi safe kill.

What do you guys think?

 

[Luig]

Fsmash has always killed that early. In fact, in brawl it was the 9th most powerful fsmash, and was stronger than fjp. It was slightly nerfed in sm4sh, but it is still fast with amazing ko power, and pretty safe on shield due to it doing extra shield damage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You mean like mobility, speed, better traction, range, and good matchups? If so you are wrong, Luigi has none of those. I stopped playing luigi and picked up dr mario. I found out today that people really do underestimate this character.

Dr mario has none. Why are you playing that character...
Dr Mario has consistent 40:60s and 50:50s across the board. DEFINITLY no good MUs. He's just a character of the basic necessities.
And I like how you obviously dodged the fact that luigi does 20-30% still per grab and has powerful, fast, and safe smashes to kill with. Luigi is very far from dead when he has big reward for getting in and doesn't struggle hard from doing so.

 

[Muddyk]

Muddyk Please don't post in here if you are going to just generalize and not promote a discussion of some sort regarding the luigi nerfs. Luigi mains who are true to the charachter don't appreciate the whining any more than you do I'm sure, but theres no need for a post of this nature.

yeah you're right my bad. though my statement wasn't to generalize the entirety of the luigi boards just the few that were complaining. sorry about that.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Just played for the first time since the patch, It seems like spacing SHFF aerials are going to be extremely important from now on.

 

[TriTails]

Just played for the first time since the patch, It seems like spacing SHFF aerials are going to be extremely important from now on.

It already has been that way pre-patch. Though, it was overshadowed by D-throw.

I'mma just gonna be honest to say when I see a Luigi not using SHFF aerials I feel like kicking down a door.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

It already has been that way pre-patch. Though, it was overshadowed by D-throw.

I'mma just gonna be honest to say when I see a Luigi not using SHFF aerials I feel like kicking down a door.

Yup, I know what you mean. Having the D-throw was like a crutch for approaching and now that its gone we really have to capitalize on mistakes of opponents

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I wish they would has gave y'all something interesting in return. Like a on-hit cancel able down-b, or (if you don't like ryu's niche) a side b with huge momentum carry and shorter duration, but only from the ground.

 

[Green L]

Why are you playing that character...

Because I have a reason to. Doc's KO power is no joke. He can get 20+ from a grab like luigi. Anyway, I find it hypocritical for non luigi mains complained about luigi repetitive combos yet most characters in the game also rely on down throw. Pit, falcon, Game and watch, Pikachu, olimar, etc usually are grab happy at low percent to get that hoo hah combo and that's the only combo they can do

 

[MonkeyArms]

Dr mario has none. Why are you playing that character...

Says the "Doc main"

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Says the "Doc main"

If you would has read G Green L post, saying what describes top/high tier characters, he listed very specific stuff in order to make luigi look worse and intentionally took out damage output. He then talked about picking up dr mario, which didn't make sense because and I quote," You mean like mobility, speed, better traction, range, and good matchups? If so you are wrong, Luigi has none of those." Dr mario has below average mobility, is slow, traction is average, range is little, and has slightly bad to even MUs all-around. Tell me how that matches up please

 

[MonkeyArms]

If you would has read G Green L post, saying what describes top/high tier characters, he listed very specific stuff in order to make luigi look worse and intentionally took out damage output. He then talked about picking up dr mario, which didn't make sense because and I quote," You mean like mobility, speed, better traction, range, and good matchups? If so you are wrong, Luigi has none of those." Dr mario has below average mobility, is slow, traction is average, range is little, and has slightly bad to even MUs all-around. Tell me how that matches up please

And your making it sound like he wins no matchups when he wins pretty much all of these.
(They are mostly low tier, but that's a large amount.)
Not to mention having winnable matchups against Heck probably even , which any viable character has to have.

Doc only gets destroyed in these matchups:
(Post patch ganon is soooo good.)

 

[Green L]

I'm playing dr mario because he's satisfying to play as. I'm getting forward smash KOs at 80% Offstage tornado kills around 100. Sheet gimps. Luigi can't do that. His cyclone is way easier to mash than luigi's. But maybe I will try out mario

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And your making it sound like he wins no matchups when he wins pretty much all of these.
(They are mostly low tier, but that's a large amount.)
Not to mention having winnable matchups against Heck probably even , which any viable character has to have.

Doc only gets destroyed in these matchups:
(Post patch ganon is soooo good.)

Uhhhh no. In any match where a opponent can edge guard effeciently (like captain falcon) and has a dangerous neutral (like captain falcon) is a MU that's even or disadvantaged.
All of our MUs are winnable, we're absolutely viable. And we don't get destroyed by Ganon lol, That's a good joke.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

<.< Luigi is still better than over half the characters in the game, including Dr. Mario. Yeha, he does have weaknesses but he has a lot of moves with decent KO power/safety/speed, every single of his aerials is above average, good projectile, recovery options and Throw combos at low%. You'd be surprised how many characters don't have many of those things.. Or any.

This same thing happened when Diddy got nerfed in the same way... It eventually caused a revolution that kept him in top tier, the true mains discovered good moves and tech. Hoping will now be able to see a Luigi Meta with more than 1 move.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Uhhhh no. In any match where a opponent can edge guard effeciently (like captain falcon) and has a dangerous neutral (like captain falcon) is a MU that's even or disadvantaged.
All of our MUs are winnable, we're absolutely viable. And we don't get destroyed by Ganon lol, That's a good joke.

I'll talk to you when you learn how to recover, and play a dangerous neutral yourself.

 

[monzer]

And your making it sound like he wins no matchups when he wins pretty much all of these.
(They are mostly low tier, but that's a large amount.)
Not to mention having winnable matchups against Heck probably even , which any viable character has to have.

Doc only gets destroyed in these matchups:
(Post patch ganon is soooo good.)

Winnable against Villlager and Shiek, no way Dr. Mario's recovery is soooooo bad and their gimping game is soooooo good he would die once he is thrown off the stage.

No way Doc beats ZSS, Fox and Sonic, as well as all the high tiers in that list. Doc isn't that good.

Speaking of Luigi's matchups are still pretty much his only bad matchups.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I'm tired of Doc getting the "your recovery isn't like most characters automatcially trash" treatment. Its not like both of his recovery moves easily kill if your oppponent messes up or anything.

No way Doc beats ZSS, Fox and Sonic, as well as all the high tiers in that list. Doc isn't that good.

That is just terrible logic. Doc combos these characters for days and has very safe options as well as the better nuetral against these characters so he wins.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I'm tired of Doc getting the "your recovery isn't like most characters automatcially trash" treatment. Its not like both of his recovery moves easily kill if your oppponent messes up or anything.

That is just terrible logic. Doc combos these characters for days and has very safe options as well as the better nuetral against these characters so he wins.

I'll give you Fox and Sonic even though it is not true but you think ZSS loses to Doc? I love Doc and he is viable but to think he would win against ZSS is ludicrous.

 

[GreenFlame]

I'm pretty sure Dr. Mario's approach/neutral is being exaggerated here. Aside from pills, Doc still has poor range much like Luigi. I also feel like you're exaggerating his combo ability.

Dr. Mario is definitely a viable character, but whether or not he's better than Luigi won't help us a whole bunch right now nor would it be objectively answerable.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I'll give you Fox and Sonic even though it is not true but you think ZSS loses to Doc? I love Doc and he is viable but to think he would win against ZSS is ludicrous.

I mean, Doc just needs like two grabs and she could be dead. Edge guarding her is a cakewalk, and I'm pretty sure you can nair her up air strings. We have yet to see a top level doc on stream yet so I wouldn't say anything for sure, this is from a high level perspective.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'll talk to you when you learn how to recover, and play a dangerous neutral yourself.

nice try at a jab. try again.
EDIT: and ZSS losing to us? we're not some secret top tier character.

 

[MonkeyArms]

nice try at a jab. try again.
EDIT: and ZSS losing to us? we're not some secret top tier character.

It doesn't take a top tier to beat a top tier.
Y Yonder please lock this, its gotten way off topic and is causing only arguments.

 

[sims796]

This patch is tearing our family apart!

 

[Yonder]

It doesn't take a top tier to beat a top tier.
Y Yonder please lock this, its gotten way off topic and is causing only arguments.

Going through this, yeah good call. Alright people, Use the gameplay discussion or make a new 1.1.1 patch thread.