Lucina/Marth Aggressive Tactics and Mind Games

[Rajing Clue]

Hey guys,

I'd like to go over a couple things that I've been doing with the character that has been working. It may be simple in theory but it really helps speed your game up and apply some decent pressure.

Apologies I don't have anything recorded, will try to upload as soon as I can...

Full Jump Double FAirs - due to the lack of being able to get out 2 aerials in one short hop, we need to resort to full jumps in certain situations in order to get the most pressure possible from an aerial approach... There is a specific way to do full hop double FAirs that will keep you as fast and agile as possible and I will explain...

The first FAir in your full hop needs to come out IMMEDIATELY as you jump so that you can space yourself to hit with it on the way up > at the top of your jump, fast fall immediately and land with another spaced F air- it is even possible to land behind the person to avoid shield grab.

This may seem like simple execution, but it is very effective at speeding up an aggressive lucina/marth playstyle.

Shield Breaker

Due to the mechanics and speed of Smash 4... I IMPLORE you to revisit B moves that you may not have used to full effectiveness in the past. I feel that there was a deliberate focus on making the special moves a bigger part of the game this iteration. Shield Breaker is an amazing move in Smash 4... the possibilities of application are vast.

One of the ways I incorporate it in my game is to counter the strength of the dash up + shield tactic. A well timed SHORT HOP RETREATING shield breaker is absolutely crucial in catching the shield happy players off guard. If you find yourself in the air with your opponent in front of you and landing at a similar time... it severely reduces their options if you start charging a Shield Breaker... if they land next to you... let it rip... if spaced correctly, they must spot dodge or roll. If they AIR DODGE before the ground thinking you will release it in the air... hold it and release once u touch the ground and you will catch their landing lag.

F THROW application

Don't underestimate the positional advantage Forward throw often gives you... The first couple times you catch someone with it... followup with an aggressive F Air or N Air pressure then continue. Once you've trained them to air dodge... switch your game up. F Throw then EMPTY JUMP to bait their air dodge... you can then land and F throw again OR F Throw then short hop and start charging shield breaker... they will air dodge after you train them and then land with your charged shield breaker to catch their air dodge landing frames....

COUNTER

USE IT BUT DON'T ABUSE IT.... IT CAN KO DEPENDING ON THE MOVES IT COUNTERS.

IN CLOSING...

I know this is just the tip of the iceberg, but I wanted to share some things that are working for me, in hopes that you all can take something to incorporate in your game. There are many other moves that work extremely well in addition to the above tactics. (d tilt, d air, etc) If you've got anything to add, post in the comments below! Thanks for reading all.

 

[Master Raven]

I like all of Lucina's throws. Dthrow and Uthrow at early % on platform stages can be good for positioning since they're likely to land above you on a platform, which serves to our advantage. When we have rage we can use Uthrow for kills since people tend to shield as they take higher %.

Because air dodges have landing lag in this game, I feel like that works great for our juggle game. I want to explore some uses of utilt since I feel like there's just enough endlag to punish someone if they air dodge, but I'll have to test it with someone.

 

[Nasreth]

Redacted post, I had a lot of early misconceptions about the game that were brought on due to bad opponents. Instead, I'll add some of my new findings here that people might like

Aggressive Options:
Short Hopped F-air --> Dancing Blade
If you short hop a forward air you have just enough time to get your dancing blade animation off before hitting the ground. This suspends you in the air for a little bit longer and lets you choose a direction to attack based on where you see your opponent going. If you're against a grab happy guy, this will pop him in the face when he dashes in to take advantage of your f-air landing lag. If it's someone who likes rolling into you, you can turn the other direction with your DB and punish him when he gets out of his roll. If he rolls away from you then you cut the animation and can roll or jump away, but DB has the nice effect of a lingering animation which means if he immediately dashes towards you after rolling away you can continue the animation to punish him.

Full Hop F-air --> DI -> Shield Breaker
The first f-air can hit him/her. It also protects you from an aerial, projectile, tilt, or dash attack and the shield breaker covers your landing. Ideally you don't want to charge this up unless your opponent made the mistake of smashing when you were out of range and you can punish. If you charge it up and he has no lag frames then he will likely spot dodge or roll the attack and punish you afterwards.

Short Hop --> Dancing Blade x1 -> Neutral Air -> Upsmash
You can only do the n-air and upsmash if the dancing blade connects. Ideally the n-air will only connect with the first attack, stunning him but not knocking him away for your followup. You can also u-air instead of the n-air if you want to follow through with an aerial combo.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Short Hop -> Neutral Air -> Fast Fall
This is a great defensive technique with a ton of range. It's only vulnerable to people who come directly at you from above due to the high range of the n-air and the fact that it auto-cancels on the stage during any part of it's animation giving you no landing lag. If you find yourself falling and your opponent is positioning themselves to take advantage of you, consider using n-air and a fast fall to get back on the ground. Follow it up with a quick double F-air if he shields it or dodges and you'll have your footing back. Just remember you're vulnerable directly below with this ability as well! (Negated normally by short hop-fast falling, but won't save you if you're launched high)

Wait, wait , wait. N-air doesn't auto cancel.. at least for me.

 

[GymleaderBen]

Hey guys,
COUNTER

USE IT BUT DON'T ABUSE IT.... IT CAN KO DEPENDING ON THE MOVES IT COUNTERS.

the counters that I've found to work (still a lot of testing to be done) are people recovering from ledges and if someone's recovering offstage from a somewhat lower point I try to jump down and counter their recovery. Offstage play is a lot more prevalent in 4 it seems

 

[alandaband]

Full Jump Double FAirs - due to the lack of being able to get out 2 aerials in one short hop,

I've found that you can FAir > Side B in one short hop. It's not a real combo and there's quite a bit of cool down after the first FAir, but maybe it can be used throw people off..

 

[GymleaderBen]

if I'm still on the stage and not near the edges, I kind of just prefer to short hop + Fair, but just do it twice quickly. It's a handy push.

 

[Funkermonster]

I basically base my game around those double F-Air approaches, it's amazing. It really messes with people who like to roll and dash attack a lot (which seems to be most people, unfortunately). Can't stress how good this playstyle is once you learn how to space it and execute it properly. IE: If you don't do this already, learn to

I think down throw and up throw are by far the most useful grabs at mid-high percentages because it's so easy to juggle people in ssb4 due to landing lag and down aerials having lots of lag in general, but at lower percentages the fthrow is pretty great I'll agree. I haven't found much use for backthrow except to get people off the stage for an easy b-air at mid percentages.

I think Lucina has to play aggressive in most matchups, but she does have a couple great turtle options. If you're against someone who you just can't seem to pin down and you want to try playing the other side of the coin, or if you're simply down a stock and trying to catch up, try these out:

Roll Dodge -> Dancing Blade (side B)
I recommend using the down B finisher at low percentages as it does the most damage, but outside of that the upwards finisher is by far the best. It places your opponent directly above you at a slight angle leaving them vulnerable to an air juggle or simply grabbing them or smashing them when they land on the stage.

Short Hop -> Neutral Air -> Fast Fall
This is a great defensive technique with a ton of range. It's only vulnerable to people who come directly at you from above due to the high range of the n-air and the fact that it auto-cancels on the stage during any part of it's animation giving you no landing lag. If you find yourself falling and your opponent is positioning themselves to take advantage of you, consider using n-air and a fast fall to get back on the ground. Follow it up with a quick double F-air if he shields it or dodges and you'll have your footing back. Just remember you're vulnerable directly below with this ability as well! (Negated normally by short hop-fast falling, but won't save you if you're launched high)

No offense, but I can't say I agree with this advice.

The utility of Bthrow comes not just from edgeguarding, but the positional advantage it gives you, as Lucina and Marth both have great horizontal stage control. Gets people outta way so you can start spacing again. None of her throws are amazing per say, but I think of Bthrow and Fthrow as her best ones anyway because of the positional advantage they give. Can open up pressure and restart spacing.

Lucina an aggressive character? Hell no, she's still identical to Marth in the way that they are both designed for attacking from afar with the tip of their swords where they cannot reach. Even though Lucina has no tipper mechanic like he does, you still wanna space people out anyway, she just gets less reward for doing and takes fewer risks when it fails. Given her limited combo options and hefty landing lag on her aerials, I don't think she's that good at aggressive play anyway. She is still great at pressuring shields with her neutral B though, and has a good edge game.

Uthrow and Dthrow are not that good. While it is true that Landing Lag has been increased in this game, it doesn't change that hitstun isn't particularly high and both throws have too much knockback for followups. I've used Uthrow dozens of times, and most people can just jump out out of it, air dodge, or just vector away from me; and I usually only get 1 Uair from it (which knocks them too far away for another one). A guy told me that Uthrow Uair (or any followup) is not guaranteed, and that her Bthrow and Fthrow are overall better options to use because of their positional advantage.

If you fastfall a shorthopped Nair, it is not an auto-cancel. If the animation still goes on when she lands, it still gives you a good amount of landing lag, like the rest of her aerials.

 

[Nasreth]

No offense, but I can't say I agree with this advice.

The utility of Bthrow comes not just from edgeguarding, but the positional advantage it gives you, as Lucina and Marth both have great horizontal stage control. Gets people outta way so you can start spacing again. None of her throws are amazing per say, but I think of Bthrow and Fthrow as her best ones anyway because of the positional advantage they give. Can open up pressure and restart spacing.

Lucina an aggressive character? Hell no, she's still identical to Marth in the way that they are both designed for attacking from afar with the tip of their swords where they cannot reach. Even though Lucina has no tipper mechanic like he does, you still wanna space people out anyway, she just gets less reward for doing and takes fewer risks when it fails. Given her limited combo options and hefty landing lag on her aerials, I don't think she's that good at aggressive play anyway. She is still great at pressuring shields with her neutral B though, and has a good edge game.

Uthrow and Dthrow are not that good. While it is true that Landing Lag has been increased in this game, it doesn't change that hitstun isn't particularly high and both throws have too much knockback for followups. I've used Uthrow dozens of times, and most people can just jump out out of it, air dodge, or just vector away from me; and I usually only get 1 Uair from it (which knocks them too far away for another one). A guy told me that Uthrow Uair (or any followup) is not guaranteed, and that her Bthrow and Fthrow are overall better options to use because of their positional advantage.

If you fastfall a shorthopped Nair, it is not an auto-cancel. If the animation still goes on when she lands, it still gives you a good amount of landing lag, like the rest of her aerials.

No offense taken. When I said a lot of that stuff I was still playing against mostly newer players and none of them were properly punishing me for a lot of small lag frames. My opinions pretty much mirror your own now.

 

[Rajing Clue]

No offense, but I can't say I agree with this advice.

The utility of Bthrow comes not just from edgeguarding, but the positional advantage it gives you, as Lucina and Marth both have great horizontal stage control. Gets people outta way so you can start spacing again. None of her throws are amazing per say, but I think of Bthrow and Fthrow as her best ones anyway because of the positional advantage they give. Can open up pressure and restart spacing.

Lucina an aggressive character? Hell no, she's still identical to Marth in the way that they are both designed for attacking from afar with the tip of their swords where they cannot reach. Even though Lucina has no tipper mechanic like he does, you still wanna space people out anyway, she just gets less reward for doing and takes fewer risks when it fails. Given her limited combo options and hefty landing lag on her aerials, I don't think she's that good at aggressive play anyway. She is still great at pressuring shields with her neutral B though, and has a good edge game.

Uthrow and Dthrow are not that good. While it is true that Landing Lag has been increased in this game, it doesn't change that hitstun isn't particularly high and both throws have too much knockback for followups. I've used Uthrow dozens of times, and most people can just jump out out of it, air dodge, or just vector away from me; and I usually only get 1 Uair from it (which knocks them too far away for another one). A guy told me that Uthrow Uair (or any followup) is not guaranteed, and that her Bthrow and Fthrow are overall better options to use because of their positional advantage.

If you fastfall a shorthopped Nair, it is not an auto-cancel. If the animation still goes on when she lands, it still gives you a good amount of landing lag, like the rest of her aerials.

I agree with mostly everything. Though I wouldn't say "hell no" to the thought of these 2 being aggressive characters. While I do agree that she plays a spacing game. You still need to be aggressive to get in on zoners and stallers, the difference is, you're not going ALL the way in. You're getting yourself to Lucina and Marth's preferred distance which has always been tipper range. Furthermore, while we F Air doesn't autocancel, it is ridiculously safe on the way up (the first one you throw out) then judging whenther you hit or not, continue the spacing or follow-up from there. She also has a great roll chase and tech chase game due to her walk speed and Dancing Blade pivots.

Needless to say their aggressive off stage game is amazing, and how I get the majority of kills especially on people who don't have amazing recoveries.

Think you're right on with B Throw and F Throw and controlling horizontal space. I always feel that momentum after a back throw near the ledge. Especially at higher percents if not stale, a tipper back air follow up happens quite often for me...

 

[GymleaderBen]

I think they're as aggressive as the player who's controlling them.

 

[Robertman2]

I think they're as aggressive as the player who's controlling them.

I'm always aggressive with Lucina. Fits my old Marth Melee/Brawl/P:M playstyle perfectly.

 

[GymleaderBen]

I'm always aggressive with Lucina. Fits my old Marth Melee/Brawl/P:M playstyle perfectly.

I usually am, but it depends on like who I'm matched up against