Lucas General Discussion

[D e l t a]

Regarding 3.61 changes that will most likely never be released...

Tl;dr

Nair buff would've been cool but not game changing. Maybe easier grabs / combos, but that's about it.

PKT2 buff wouldn't be huge and rarely changes anything

Mag buff was only for repeating hits. Still, not game changing

Bair buff to sweetspot hitbox would've been good against heavies since it took priority over the flub, but the move is fine as it is

 

[trancex]

The mag buff only being for repeating hits applies to every magnet though. It's a subtle change, but quite noticeable.

These changes seem to have been mostly for feel.

Have you guys noticed that you can sweetspot from below the ledge with up B in certain cases? When I'm playing extremely well and have my up B angles perfect, I feel like I can do it on command, but I'm not certain how it works. It's distinct from aiming a perfect up B that rides ever-so-slightly up the wall to perfectly sweetspot, because it's a quick snap.

 

[zen-bz-]

Have you guys noticed that you can sweetspot from below the ledge with up B in certain cases?

Shoutout to Kip VS SB at TO11

 

[trancex]

What, how did I miss that? I'll watch it again now.

 

[Tragic Magic]

So I'm getting back into the PM scene in my area now that the semester is ending and I can actually practice now. I was curious if Lucas is solo main viable. I started PM with Roy, so I've always considered myself dual maining both characters, but I've recently realized I do well with just Lucas. I may just drop Roy all together and strictly focus on Lucas from now on.

Lastly, I plan on going to Xanadu sometime over winter break and I wanna represent us Lucas mains in good taste, so I was curious if I could practice against some of you other Lucas mains over netplay to make sure my skills are up to par. My tag is VII on anthers ladder and thanks for your time everyone!

 

[nimigoha]

What, how did I miss that? I'll watch it again now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBDmdqxGQI&ab_channel=Jethrotex

Do you mean like this?

 

[trancex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBDmdqxGQI&ab_channel=Jethrotex

Do you mean like this?

Yep, exactly that.

 

[D e l t a]

I used to do that. Then I started going for consistent sweetspots instead of risking getting gimped

 

[trancex]

I honestly don't know if there's a true difference. It seems like I get them in situations where I had the perfect sweetspot angle, but it just skipped the drilling-my-head-into-the-wall part.

 

[trancex]

Sooo this happened last night.
http://www.gfycat.com/EmptyUnevenGemsbok

The slope on Yoshi's Island is just ridiculous. I still can't understand how it happened though, I was clearly underneath the lip of the stage.

 

[donger bois]

Sooo this happened last night.
http://www.gfycat.com/EmptyUnevenGemsbok

The slope on Yoshi's Island is just ridiculous. I still can't understand how it happened though, I was clearly underneath the lip of the stage.

stage is just weird man

 

[zen-bz-]

Ayy I'm back

Which situations warrant what version of magnet? I know both have their uses, yet I'm not sure when to use an aerial mag into DJC uair/fair/nair, vs just a grounded mag. I'm aware of clear cut situations, such as around higher %s using grounded mag -> WD back -> Usmash, and at earlier %s using aerial mag to start combos, but for stuff in between, and for certain chars, what situation warrants what, and what typically has more uses/versatility?

 

[trancex]

For me, the choice of grounded vs aerial magnet changes depending on whether I need to do a mag out of a dash, like for instance if I bait out a move using a dash dance, I'd dash back and aerial mag to punish. If I run in to start pressure, I'll just do a grounded mag because it comes out faster. The followups are pretty similar, but you more easily do instant aerials with an aerial mag. Mag > bair is so so good if you can nail it. Grounded magnets allow you to get a little bit more horizontal distance for followups, which is useful when they DI correctly.

 

[D e l t a]

Personally, my decision is mostly character dependent and somewhat reliant on stage position. Neither are definitively better than the other, but I found some good traits in both. It comes down to preference for the most part

Base notes
Grounded gives longer WD but takes 4 frames longer because jump squat. Easier to react to on hit / shield, so starting up shield pressure is better with grounded IMO
Aerial allows for almost instant aerials that usually connect on opponents at any % if it hits. On shield, double mags / mag -> retreating DJC aerial, etc. are much easier to do than leading in with grounded mag.

==

Adding to what's been said....

Grounded: Opponents that like to attack after being hit. Characters include Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, Peach, etc. Grounded mag leads to Utilt (since they won't keep DI'ing away). Time & space the disjoint to not trade with attacks and so you get the sweetspot.

Lower %'s so you can SH -> aerial. Bair on fatties / fast fallers under 30, then Uair roughly 30-80, then Bair or something. Haven't fully labbed that yet.
Lower %'s against lighter weights gets you those Utilts that convert better than Uair because of extra hitstun (Marth can counter out, Yoshi can DJC out under 40% or so if you're not perfect, etc)

Higher %'s / other: I find grounded mag -> WD back allows easier reads on the enemy's DI. Allows ample time to decide on DACUS, Fair, RAR Bair, running Uair, etc.

==

Aerial mag: Used more on heavies / FFers. Mag -> Bair is much easier on heavier / larger characters. Catching opponents hard DI'ing in towards the stage around 70-100% can get caught by Mag -> rising Uair -> Bair, but less get followed up by DJC Uair after 70% due to knockback & positioning. Plus, I've found less followups after ~70% by aerial Mag -> DJC Uair, whereas DJC Uair is better at lower %'s

Best use of aerial mag is either front shield pressure or getting instant conversions to an aerial attack if you know how your opponent will react

 

[D e l t a]

Also, grounded mag -> WD back jab reset if they CC/ASDI down and don't tech is godlike counter-play

 

[zen-bz-]

I know Lucas stalls slightly whenever he DJCs an aerial...but how long exactly is the stall, assuming optimal DJC?

 

[Denjinpachi]

Quick question, whats Lucas' safest kill option? I know he can combo a lot with magnet, dair, nair, and such, but whats the best way to kill after hitting like a reset, or a juggle? is it only with the spike of bair? or a smash attack?

 

[nimigoha]

Quick question, whats Lucas' safest kill option? I know he can combo a lot with magnet, dair, nair, and such, but whats the best way to kill after hitting like a reset, or a juggle? is it only with the spike of bair? or a smash attack?

Probably Bair sweetspot, not even the spike. Just the top of the swing with the tip of his foot.

 

[zen-bz-]

Maybe a sweetspot fair near the ledge, especially if djc'd? Could be wrong though

 

[Denjinpachi]

Whats the average percent up throw kills at now?

 

[nimigoha]

I haven't checked or labbed but 3.02 I could Uthrow around 120% and be confident in a kill. Now I'll only Uthrow if they break 150%. Someone else will have a better and more data-backed answer though.

 

[zen-bz-]

Check out the throws section of Delta's guide. It has a comprehensive list of when uthrow kills which characters at what percents.

 

[zen-bz-]

D e l t a Junebug beat you to that Lucas guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8xqoVdcsvc

 

[D e l t a]

lol yeah. My motivation and timing to finally release more content came at a bad time. Back at college for another 3 months and my buddy has all the splitters to record vods... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

re: Uthrow kills. I usually Uthrow most characters (haven't memorized every stage yet) around 142%.

Check out the throws section of Delta's guide. It has a comprehensive list of when uthrow kills which characters at what percents.

Note that changes to throw release points in 3.6 increased the % needed to kill. Add about 2-4% to any value you see on the chart. I have Badge's code to compile the numbers in dolphin, but sadly I don't have a working emulator. I'll probably be going thru those #'s and adding 2-3% to each character so it balanced out correctly. Additionally, the chart is accurate within +/- 4% last I remember.

I could Uthrow around 120% and be confident in a kill.

Uthrow never killed that early except on floatier characters. For reference, Yoshi died around at 135% in 3.0 iirc on Battlefield. He now dies at about 140-142%. Jiggs used to die as early as 90% on Yoshi's story and now dies at about 96%.


Here's my general flowchart for killing with Uthrow
Floaties die at roughly120-130
Midweights (Mario, Marth, etc) around 140-145
Heavier type characters / faster fallers (Yoshi, Sheik, Lucas, DK, Ganon) around 150%.

I don't even bother to Uthrow kill spacies / Roy / Diddy. Just back throw them off stage around 120% and gimp their recovery. Or Dthrow and get the followup if they don't DI and if they DI full behind: read their double jump and PKF / Bair or dash behind -> sweet spot fair. If you can't get followups off Dthrow DI'd behind, the enemy is still going off-stage at that point and is in a bad position.

 

[D e l t a]

BTW, this is useful and answers your question best Denjinpachi zen-bz- nimigoha

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Zi9_2I-71-FJO-nT5eak3FoXM/edit#gid=1029140403

To put into perspective of gameplay....
Sweetspot Bair (the 45% angle behind his head) from Dthrow/Uair -> Bair conversions typically nets kills around 110-130% off the top
Fsmash kills spacies guaranteed around 80% and afaik kills floatier characters around 100% close to the ground, near the center of stages such as Smashville or PS2.
Dsmash has weird knockback trajectory so it can straight up kill or setup ledge guards past 80-100% afaik
Sweetspot Fair / last hit of Nair begin killing around 130-140% if you struggle to land any of the other kill moves. Best from PKF conversion since nothing else combos from that move at high %.
OU Upsmash is hands down the best.

Kills Jiggs on most stages at ~45% from 3rd hit of Dair popup. Regular Upsmash is around 50%. Guaranteed from Dair.
Kills other floaties around 60-80%
Midweights: 70-90%
Else: 90-120%​

 

[zen-bz-]

Can anyone provide an answer to this question, please?

I know Lucas stalls slightly whenever he DJCs an aerial...but how long exactly is the stall, assuming optimal DJC?

 

[Xcite]

Can anyone provide an answer to this question, please?

Not exactly sure what you're taking about.

 

[Kipcom]

Yeaaah, that's a really weird question

Like there is somewhat of a stall on DJC aerials but all you have to do is not fast fall it. I don't think anyone really thought about how long it actually lasts (though the answer is not very long at all).

I also don't know what you mean by optimal DJC in that situation.

 

[D e l t a]

Can anyone provide an answer to this question, please?

I know Lucas stalls slightly whenever he DJCs an aerial...but how long exactly is the stall, assuming optimal DJC?

To answer your question properly, better phrasing would first off be helpful. There are a few key points that come to mind when thinking about this:

1. WHEN do you perform the DJC? 1 frame after being airborne? 2? 3? 4? 5?
2. How long you hold the jump input
3. If you're performing aerial attacks vs specials (assuming you mean the former, but DJC mag has slight different falling times than throwing out magnet)
4. Are you DJC'ing on a platform?
5. The difference between hang time from doing a SH aerial vs DJC?

==

In attempts to guide you on the right path (towards phrasing this better) I'll leave you with this...

The "stall time" from DJC'ing is merely resetting your vertical change in elevation. So if I'm falling or rising, the DJC acts as if I'm at the apex of a jump. The reason DJC looks faster is because most everyone also fast falls right after. The actual "time" that Lucas hangs there could be calculated the same way you find out how many frames he's airborne for a jump / the acceleration he gains while falling.

 

[zen-bz-]

EDIT: I decided to rewrite this in its entirety because I was getting confused by my own writing, lol.

By "optimal", I am referring to inputting the DJ, letting go, then inputting the aerial right after (1 frame) through the c-stick. Let's just use DJC Uair for the sake of consistency. I'm not interested about anything else EXCEPT the amount of time Lucas is "stalled" for when he inputs the DJC aerial. This takes place on the main stage, and not a platform, and this DJC Uair will take place maybe 2-3 frames after Lucas leaves the ground (so frame 6-7 after inputting jump).

 

[D e l t a]

The confusing part is "stall time." Your total air time can be calculated with/without a fast fall in frames. All you'd have to do is count from your short/full hop to the point where you input a DJC aerial until you land.

Your actual stall time would be some kind of exponential function around the point Lucas stops accelerating at the apex of a jump until he falls back to the ground. Something along the lines of gravity of game + weight/fall speed. Then you can take the rounded portion of that parabola and fix that point to wherever you DJC

 

[zen-bz-]

We just started learning parabolas in my Algebra class
NOW'S MY TIME TO SHINE

 

[D e l t a]

NOW'S MY TIME TO SHINE

blip

 

[D e l t a]

Was diving thru old threads and came across some 3.0 footage. Man this range was [still is] busted...

.

 

[zen-bz-]

B R U H
R
U
H

 

[Kipcom]

Was diving thru old threads and came across some 3.0 footage. Man this range was [still is] busted...

View attachment 95083 .

I honestly don't see a difference here lol

 

[D e l t a]

It was lowered slightly in 3.5. Not by much but I definitely can tell the difference

Still the most broken smash attack in terms of range and damage / knockback

 

[D e l t a]

1 month bump hype

I forget who was asking about Magnet OoS but I found a time where it's actually useful
https://gfycat.com/GrotesqueTalkativeHyracotherium

 

[zen-bz-]

I haven't played in a while because of CS. I finally played again yesterday with a friend. I forgot how S L I C K Lucas feels, LOL

I would play more if I had a scene

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Not sure if this is a super useful tech but I found out Lucas can do a Dtilt/jab to grab ledge similar to falcon's dash attack. You just crouch out of running into a Dtilt and hold away from the ledge.

Here is a gyf of it: https://gfycat.com/GargantuanFaroffArmednylonshrimp