Lucario Matchup Discussion: vs. Yoshi

[Steam]

Lucario Matchup Discussion: vs. Yoshi

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Welcome to the Lucario vs. Yoshi matchup thread/export. As you might have guessed this thread is for discussing the ins and outs of the Lucario vs. Yoshi matchup and who wins/loses. As always please keep discussion on topic and civil. Refer to this thread for all other matchups.

 

[Eeveecario]

Once again, recycling some short notes I made for this occasion.

CONS:

• Quick Nair and jabs, he can escape combos easily.
• Double Jump has super armor and can counter any hits taken during it.
• He has the best aerial movement in the game. Punishing an air dodge can be hard.
• He has two grabs of different speed, and his neutral B can be used on air.
• His jabs can easily combo into anything, you'll be stuck in a mix-up if you get hit by one. Also, his jab-combo has a tiny punish window.
• Insane air-combo potential. Every move he has is above average.

PROS

• Too dangerous to him if he tries to recover low. Foot staling is your best gimping tool.
• Slow and lagging grabs, dodging those can lead to a punish.
• Stay on his back whenever you can, his only offensive actions will be aerial moves if he can't turn around.
• Slow and unsafe rolls, be patient and punish them with quick moves.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I never played this matchup especially since Trela no longer plays him. SO HERE'S A BASIC WRITE UP ON HOW THIS NEVER TO HAPPEN IN TOURNAMENT MU WILL GO?

Lucario will be pelted by eggs in neutral cause he doesn't have a good projectile until 50ish%.
Both characters have bad neutral so it accentuates Yoshi's egg throw versatility even more. You're too sluggish to run under us and hit us during ET lag compared to sheik pika sonic etc. lol
Yoshi racks up damage fast and can kill Lucario early if he lands anything.
If Yoshi plays to camp and avoids hits well like a coward, Lucario will never land anything on him.
Lucario in aura/rage, if Yoshi's trillion kill moves thrown out cause no kill set ups never happen, gives 0 ****s for Yoshi's weight so we can kill him from his lightweight around 90-120% but then lucario can kill Yoshi around 30ish% from any smash or side-b cause lol raurage
A game of patience waiting for one or the other to **** up and be greedy for the kill so Yoshi can get downb/Usmash for lucario kill, or lucario for side-b or Usmash from ASC.

Quite literally might be one of those matchups where the first stock taken wins the match. Heavily momentum based on both sides unless Lucario can set up their ASC to upsmash.
+1 Yoshi

 

[Steam]

Egg throw is only meaningful when lucario is above yoshi or when he's like the entire stage away just to force him a little closer. Other than that he can AS through it at most%s. It kinda destroys him in the air though. most of yoshi's stuff beats all our stuff and is safe on shield so he can really just do whatever he wants most of the time. on top of that we can't really punishing landings that well because he can just wavebounce egg lay in a lot of situations. Yoshi doesn't get janked by ASC at the ledge at all, has decent kill moves and racks damage all day, we can't really touch him in this game. funny how it used to be so easy.

+1 yoshi imo

 

[Eeveecario]

Well, my brother mains Yoshi. Not the best one but he has a good & solid Yoshi. I have to deal with this MU everyday =(

OK, moving on. If he is spamming Egg Throws (ET), I'll just shield and no harm is done. It can control some space, but is easily punished if you get in on a read.

This MU ask for us to have defensive reflexes. Sitting on our shield is kind of safe since Yoshi has some starting lag on his grabs and Neutral B. A good way to approach him is getting close, shield and move on ANY offensive reaction. Mix-up this approach tho, he can adapt easily. Watch out for Down-B and Neutral-B if we approach like this, as down-B can break our shield unexpectedly and neutral-B will rack up unnecessary damage.

Talking about the Neutral-B: Always mix-up when you break out, as it can lead to kill setups if timed correctly (Down-B, Up-air, ET to follow-up). You'll have some invincibility frames when you pop out of the egg tho, air-dodging or D-air can break the set-up. If you get trapped on a egg while off-stage: we can wiggle and break off to make it back to stage, watch out for the edge-guard.

Yoshi is a beast while edge-guarding, as he can setup a kill with an ET to Fair or Nair. Honestly, our best option to challenge him is to go directly to him and abuse our hit-box, or completely ignore him and go past him. Trying to grab the ledge is dangerous since his Dair/Bair is meaty as hell, or we can go directly to an egg and get spiked. It's possible to grab the ledge tho, Mix-up your recovery, also take your time and enjoy your air-time! Don't haste to recover!

Finally, he can break our combos easily by just mashing A, his Nair comes out fast and is meaty, and his jab is absurdly fast and can cancel greatly (BTW, there's a tiny window to punish right after his jab 2, you can grab him if you time it right after blocking the hit).

OK, ENOUGH DEFENSIVE AND LET'S TALK ABOUT OFFENSE.
This MU is all about reading jabs and Nairs and abuse our hitbox range. He will try to boot his way out during your offense most of the time, shielding and spacing it is out best options to rack up damage and net kills (eventually, yoshi will stop trying offensive and DJ or air-dodge out of his way).

In spite of Yoshi having armor during his double jump (DJ), if he tries any attack while jumping, he will lost his armor and jump. Baiting an attack and spacing it will pierce this armor and put Yoshi on trouble if he's recovering. Test Yoshi's patience and punish it! One thing to note, is that Yoshi can mix-up his ET and his DJ. If you can't read those, just don't bother and start planning your offense on stage. Oh, Yoshi don't have armor during his ET.

Once we get our aura, Yoshi have to respect us, else he will get one stock away.

........
EDIT:
AND OF COURSE! A YOSHI TIPS & TRICKS VIDEO IS UPLOADED JUST WHEN I FINISH WRITING THIS ¬n¬.

 

[RT]

All I can say is...

It's in Yoshi's favor until Lucario gets Aura, then it goes to about even.

 

[JohnnstR]

I have much experience w with this matchup, and I think Lucario has a lot of pros, especially on the edge game. Your AS is a huge part of this MU, mostly because yoshi has so many good options close up.

Most Yoshis like to approach from the air, having such good ariels. Charge AS, forcing an approach from the Yoshi, and most likely it will be a fair, dair, or nair. if you shield a misspaced fair, dair, or nair, you should be able to punish with a grab combo, then put in the AS you've been charging, you get some quick %. If yoshi lands a grab, he doesn't have any combos, but you can dair and b reverse in the air to mix up where you land. Yoshis uiar, having such a small hitbox, will have a lot of trouble hitting you at all while you have these tools. If you mix it up and meet Yoshi in the air with a nair as he approaches you, you can follow up on that with a dash attack or grab, or whatever.

Yoshi is easy to hit coming back on the stage. A lot of Yoshis like to come back on the stage using their jump 2 into an ariel, this is because the jump 2 has to finish before they can grab the ledge. If they try to grab the edge, you have been charging an AS to fire at them for this situation, because AS hits so far below itself, its an easy punish, and you could even run offstage and nair/bair for a gimp after this AS. If he approches from offstage with doublejump into an ariel, you rollback/space yourself so that you can just AS as well, without being hit by this ariel. You also have the option to DT, space an Fsmash, or shield to FP. The only one of these I would recommend is the FP, as DT can miss or be shielded very easily, and fsmash is risky. A smart Yoshi can space his self to up b to the ledge, covering the stage with his egg if you are looking for a bair. to cover this, it takes some reads to cover his gettup option, but if he tries to recover any other way besides his upb, it's an easy punish.

If yoshi shothops at you with an airdodge, like many do, they have time to nair. He wants you to throw your AS here, then punish you with the nair or neut B. if he sees you shield early, he will abandon this idea or go for a neutral b. all you have to do is read the nair or b and punish accordingly. the nair is an easy shieldgrab, as long as you dont the the AS. the B you should roll from and punish with AS. easy.

As a result of your predictable play so far, you have very easy options to mix it up. If you have been charging your AS most of the time, run up and grab him in a vulnerable position. fastfall nair him if you normally breverse away when above him. There's so much lucario can do to yoshi.

best yoshi on Anther's ladder bested by a Lucario - http://www.smashladder.com/match/view/1958645

 

[Eeveecario]

General review

That's a good post, and thanks for being positive!

I agree with a lot of you just said, having a strong mix-up game and adapting to your foe play style can definitely pierce through many situations

 

[JohnnstR]

That's a good post, and thanks for being positive!

I agree with a lot of you just said, having a strong mix-up game and adapting to your foe play style can definitely pierce through many situations

Thanks man

 

[Pitbuller26]

Since I'm in Socal and this place is Yoshi City, I can certainly say this matchup isn't as bad as we think it is. How well Lucario does depends on the player's reflexes and reaction time due to Yoshi's good buttons.

Respect Yoshi's jab and nair. Do those and you're already in a better position. Don't respect his recovery. The moment you see Yoshi use his second jump, make him hurt.

In terms of specific advice I can give, there isn't really anything since this is a matchup about reactions. But we can lame out Yoshi with Aura Sphere once we get to death percent, which you should do.

I think this matchup is even. I don't want to be that one guy but I think it could be +0.5 our favor.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

We have a real shield now. +1 Yoshi.

 

[Loota]

I think this matchup is even. I don't want to be that one guy but I think it could be +0.5 our favor.

Can't really blame you, I feel kind the same. I have a lot of experience in this matchup and it does feel evenish but I feel like we have enough things going on for us to make it +1.

Both characters aren't that good at approaching each other but the thing is, we don't have to approach in neutral ever as FCAS starts going through eggs really soon and high aura charged AS kinda invalidates them as Yoshi is an easy target while tossing them, and Yoshi without eggs in neutral has to approach. Nair is good at countering his aerial approaches and maintaining space but you'll have to be quite precise since his aerial speed is godly. We're quite even while grounded but we're still the one reacting to his approach. Even if you fail to keep Yoshi away, shielding is quite safe against him and getting away from him shouldn't be a big problem. On the other hand, shielding against us is never a good idea though Yoshi has it going on for him that he can't be shieldpoked at all, making it a bit easier to him to avoid getting caught in ASC.

Yoshi can rack up damage faster than us if he gets in and he can kill with a lot of moves which you have to watch out for, but from a neutral state, they all require commitment which are all risky when we have a charged AS in store which is a kill move too. We're also good at avoiding all his aerial juggles and kills at critical %'s with the help of our floatiness and dair stalls, and recovering shouldn't be a problem either, just be ready to tech in case and practice teching that bair! Edgeguarding him isn't easy either but if he has to use upB to get back on the stage, there's always a chance for an AS to the face.

Our main killing moves are FCAS and usmash which are both relatively easy to land. AS is quite straightforward to use and hit but it can be a bit stale sometimes and keeping it fresh requires occassional grabstrings (with a pummel or two) which are easy to get from landing a falling nair (which in itself is a move we can throw out with relative safety). As said, trapping Yoshi in ASC is a bit harder than vs. other characters because of his mobility and shield, but getting the upsmash by itself feels a bit easier to land than usual because he spends so much time in the air but with lacking coverage below him (that frame 1 charge release hitbox is immensely helpful). That's why uair is also a threat for him high in the air.

Losing a stock first sucks for us, especially on larger stages (which somewhat conflicts our preferences on stages), but I'd argue that it sucks even more for Yoshi since he still has to approach to end the reign of DK sized AS's which means taking some serious risks. It might be hard for us to even the stocks for a moment while at really low %'s, but the moment AS starts beating his eggs, we can resume our effective neutral against him.