Lucario BUFFED AGAIN?

[Szion]

Man, all of those nerf suggestions look terrible to me.. His recovery is already predictable..having it hit people is near necessary...Im not even gonna bother with f smash range, and removing damage on forcepalm if it doesnt sweetspot??? hello??? o-O

 

[Mr.Random]

Can someone please explain to me why this god damn character keeps getting buffed? He's outstanding. He's been outstanding for the last 3 updates. He has no weaknesses. His approach is top 3 in the game, and I would argue it might be the best. He has so many options at any given moment. He can cancel nearly all of his moves. He can recover from anywhere. He has plenty of kill moves. He can summon giant energy balls out of nowhere. He doesn't even have use them because his smaller energy balls have a baffling amount of knockback and can be launched in succession with little to no startup time. He can combo you anywhere, at any time. Trying to shield his ridiculous air/land game pressure? Lucario doesn't give a ****, he can grab you while he's in the air, through your shield. What. His grab game leads perfectly into his combos. He's too fast. His edgeguard game is ridiculous. Not only does he have his tiny energy balls of doom that he can send out endlessly, but a forward smash with range that is bordering on silly considering the knockback it deals. Also, HE CAN GRAB YOU IN THE AIR AND INSTANT KILL YOU.

This character is not representative of what Smash is. It's supposed to be a balance of offence and defense. Lucario nullifies the need for critical thinking in a match, as you can literally just throw everything you've got at your opponent and frame cancel everything. Of course this doesn't mean he's invincible, but he's so overwhelming and has such a stupid approach game that you have to be nearly perfect against him lest he catches you once and deals an easy 60+ damage with automatic combos. Good luck if you use a slower character.

With this in mind, I was expecting a healthy nerf for 3.0... Well, couldn't have been more wrong!

YOU MADE HIS NEUTRAL AIR MULTI-HIT WITHOUT REDUCING THE DAMAGE?

MORE INVINCIBILITY FRAMES AND LESS START UP ON HIS ALREADY STUPID RECOVERY?

HE STARTS WITH A FULL SPECIAL CHARGE NOW?? WHAT IS THIS? WHY? WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?



It's actually insulting when you see some of the characters who have been needlessly nerfed, while this character just continues to receive improvements. Please, make it stop.

I liked this because it made me laugh. Although I don't think he needed buffs though.

 

[TheFoolishPhilosopher]

Here's a Lucario (Vanguard) vs. Falco (Redd) matchup (this is pre 3.0 Lucario, so he hasn't received his recent buffs.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwar4sptw4

I believe this match gives a suitable context for what I'm saying. Even the commentator discusses the matchup as interesting because Falco and Lucario both have such strong pressure games. I think it's clear when you watch this video that in capable hands, Lucario can be nothing short of an offensive force. It's interesting when people say he shouldn't be getting hit by his cancels and combos, and that you just have to DI this, and avoid that, but when you watch a match you see how that is so much easier said than done.

Another recent Vanguard video with Luario's current buffs showing just how overwhelming his approach and pressure game is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbL4zgwm_FU
Look at Squeak's face. It's the same look I get on my face when I play against this character. It's the "why is this fair?" face.

As it stands, Vanguard is just about the only prominent Lucario player, so people aren't aware of this yet. His offensive options are only just being explored, and they look like that. I'm not exaggerating when I say my friend Daniel is close to this skill level with Lucario, and it's incredibly frustrating to play against him. In both of those matches, look at his opponent's faces.

Squirtle deserves a nerf!

This match shows exactly what I'm saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPyijm9NCPg

Look at how Squirtle's cancels, mobility, and wavedash allow him to combo Lucario over and over again.
It is unfair that mastering a character allows them to beat another character with a neutral matchup!
Look at vanguard's face. Squirtle is clearly unfair!

This is why anecdotal evidence is not useful. You can say this about literally every character. If you are losing to a Lucario, think about why instead of begging someone to make it easy for you.
I played mostly Lucario at my last tournament and was practically laughed out of the event for it. Lucario was in a bad state in 2.5, and 2.6 didn't help too much. His double team on the ground has enough start up time to be tagged by pretty much any Sheik or Marth player with a decent reaction time, and his double team in the air has even more. The aura balls are projectiles with twice as much endlag as a short hop Falco laser. His cancel system can only work if the other player doesn't smash DI out of it, and for half the cast, don't even work well. Against new threats (Kirby, Olimar) and old threats (Jiggly, Zelda, Peach), his combo system will often push the opponent up rather than forward naturally, even without DI. This causes him to whiff most combos, and the big problem with that is that if he does not connect with a portion of his combo, he suffers the full endlag, leading to a retaliation that will often kill a lighter character. Even if you predict your opponent to go up rather than back, your U-smash has a forward momentum that will often cause the majority of the damage to miss.

Let me give you an example. Marth can decimate Lucario, provided they know what to do. Marth's nair can cover any hurtbox Lucario puts out in the air, and his f-smash can cover any approach Lucario takes. If you double team into Marth (provided he doesn't know how to wavedash) he merely has to judge the distance to win.
Here is the scenario: Lucario double teams, and Marth reacts with a forward smash. If you are close enough to get in with double team, an f-smash will hit you before your invincibility frames start. If you are too far to get in, you will have enough endlag that Marth can either start a new combo or simply f-smash you again.

Asking Lucario to be nerfed just sounds like you have trouble against a friend you play and you don't want to learn the matchup because it's hard. That's not the community's problem, that's yours. There's not a single Lucario tournament win recorded so far that I'm aware of. If he overcentralizes the meta, and it becomes apparent, it will become apparent. Begging for a Lucario nerf when there's no evidence to suggest his dominance is just being a child.

 

[Giygacoal]

I think Fuzzyness won a 2.6 tournament (or at least palced top 5) with Lucario...but he also used Fox, so I'm not sure how well that actually worked.

 

[PcTriumph]

I don't think that Marth Vs. Lucario isn't as a disadvantageous matchup as everyone makes it out to be, at least in 3.0. With more I-frames Lucario has a better window to approach Marth, and starting with that extra aura charge makes it easier to start a combo on him. Marth's recovery is rather predictable generally and on a lot of stages it's fairly easy to push him off stage with a grounded combo into a few forward airs. While Lucario's edgeguarding game isn't the best it can be fairly potent against Marth, as the Aura Bomb covers a large space and can hit Marth during his up-b, even if it's pretty well sweetspotted. Aura Spheres are a good option as the projectile is slow and lasts a decent amount of time (although I imagine that top players can powershield it with relative ease), giving more room to work with. Without aura, I think the matchup can be very disadvantageous as once you are caught without it, it can be very difficult to pick up even a single charge again. From what I gather, the majority seem to think it's around 70-30, where as I think it's even as close as 55-45, still in Marth's favor however.

 

[Deleted member]

Hi folks,

The OP is great at this game, and I assure you this is not a case of a random player johning because his good friend is stomping him with Lucario. Bread-Butterer and I have gone through the competitive smash circuit with many wins under our belts, so it's unwise for the future (and ultimately, balance) of Project Melee to write-off informed posts such as his. Perhaps he's coming off a little hasty and hotheaded, but it's from a place of serious experience.

Lucario is incredibly good. I'm just as surprised as Bread to see that he was made even the slightest bit better. No offense to the developers, but his design is a little half-baked as it stands; he feels like a Street Fighter character more than a Smash Brothers one. His combos are silly and unnatural. They're easily performed; they flow and link together safely. His recovery is great and difficult to reliably edgeguard against.

That being said, he's not unbeatable. However, I had a suggestion for Lucario's designers that I think is a fair one (and encourages deeper, smarter, more competitive play):

Please consider making Aura Bomb a universal hitbox, one that could damage Lucario if he touches it. I think it's ridiculous to have a projectile travel that slowly and take up that much space without there being some sort of inherent risk to the owner (read: Snake). Nerfs like this shouldn't matter very much to players who think their moves through, but ultimately it will impact the unfair amount of safety granted to Lucario when he throws it. As it stands, it's too safe. It's too slow, too big, and too safe.

 

[PcTriumph]

I agree that Aura Bomb is very strong, safe tool, however I don't think that making it a universal hitbox is very practical and may or may not solve any problems with it. Consider that many character can easily reflect, cape, ect. this projectile and that every character can powershield it, as it is the easiest projectile to powershield. I am actually interested in this, could you link or record a video of your friend's usage of the Aura Bomb? Where I am, it is agreed that while it is great tool, it's actually the least effective usage of Lucario's aura in the neutral game. I see how it is a very safe option, but it also expends a valuable aura charge.

Edit: I think Aura Bomb is balanced currently, but if it is really so one-dimensional then I would support a change.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Aura Bomb is most effective in spacing, ledge pressure, and edge guarding. In effect it shouldn't, if ever, be reflected.

My suggestion is a very minor nerf and one that shouldn't devastate the metagame. What it does is prevent the Lucario from attacking through his hitbox wall and forcing smarter play.

 

[PcTriumph]

I am still unsure about that change. Perhaps if instead the Aura Bomb had strong hitboxes upon initial release with diminishing power as it traveled. I'm a little biased though as I am pretty attached to it's current implementation so I would really like to see your friends play before supporting a change, and also to check out some more good Lucarios!

 

[Spiffykins]

When several different random Lucario players start taking sets off big players and Vanguard or someone else pulls a Metroid/Vro/Wizzrobe, I'll concede he's better than mid tier (at best). Till then, I'm sticking with that assertion.

He's a fun character who can do some epic combos sometimes and is pretty good at pwning n00bz and capitalizing off of matchup unfamiliarity, but he's got plenty of flaws and there are characters better than him in nearly every possible way.

It's funny how in 2.5 the overwhelming opinion was that he was nerfed way too hard and sucked, and now in the era of 3.0, this thread exists and is taken somewhat seriously. It's the circle of strife.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Hi folks,

The OP is great at this game, and I assure you this is not a case of a random player johning because his good friend is stomping him with Lucario. Bread-Butterer and I have gone through the competitive smash circuit with many wins under our belts, so it's unwise for the future (and ultimately, balance) of Project Melee to write-off informed posts such as his. Perhaps he's coming off a little hasty and hotheaded, but it's from a place of serious experience.

Lucario is incredibly good. I'm just as surprised as Bread to see that he was made even the slightest bit better. No offense to the developers, but his design is a little half-baked as it stands; he feels like a Street Fighter character more than a Smash Brothers one. His combos are silly and unnatural. They're easily performed; they flow and link together safely. His recovery is great and difficult to reliably edgeguard against.

That being said, he's not unbeatable. However, I had a suggestion for Lucario's designers that I think is a fair one (and encourages deeper, smarter, more competitive play):

Please consider making Aura Bomb a universal hitbox, one that could damage Lucario if he touches it. I think it's ridiculous to have a projectile travel that slowly and take up that much space without there being some sort of inherent risk to the owner (read: Snake). Nerfs like this shouldn't matter very much to players who think their moves through, but ultimately it will impact the unfair amount of safety granted to Lucario when he throws it. As it stands, it's too safe. It's too slow, too big, and too safe.

No offense, but it seems more like your friend simply doesn't know how to capitalize on lucario's various weaknesses. Me and many other people here can assure you guys that lucario is an amazing character with tons of hidden potential, but the current meta-game for him is very limited, not to mention how incredibly unsafe his combo strings are with practically everyone, Di in general is his bane

I just think bread-butterer should try some other tactics other than bread&butter tactics, just saying

 

[trash?]

anyone who thought lucario's neutral game was anything less than booty buttcheeks (and arguably, STILL THINKS this way) doesn't rly understand lucario in the slightest

the only reason he's not low-tier is b/c he has a high punish game, that's it

 

[dRevan64]

You really wanted to make that pun. I hope it was worth it. @ss

 

[Deleted member]

the current meta-game for him is very limited

If you're gonna be obnoxious about this, at least understand what "metagame" actually means. Limited? By what, the lack of innovation?

???

Protip for arguing on the internet: don't throw around terms you haven't grasped; don't reveal that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Vanguard]

Beware the pitfalls of using 'personal credentials / pedigree' as support for claims. Stuff like, time spent playing smash, experience/success in the competitive scene, does not an informed opinion make. It does not bring with it, stronger or inherent insight into the game, or contribute to one's ability to analyse it and make valuable deductions, and subsequently, defended claims that 'should' contribute to ProjectM's development moving forward.

That being said, I am not making any value judgments regarding the feedback of anyone here, or even discounting pedigree. I have just seen 'pedigree' being used as a form of defense for the way some people are presenting their claims.

As a PMBR, I have seen and worked with top level smashers from Melee, Brawl, ProjectM. And you know what their feedback has in common? Nothing. Sometimes we get really thoughtful well researched, VIDEO SUPPORTED claims/concerns. Sometimes better, more successful players, give us the absolute least helpful feedback. Many times even incorrect claims/concerns built on misinformation, or the inability to accurately identify what is ACTUALLY contributing to their 'issue'.

That all said everyone should keep an open mind regarding the claims being brought forward. I know I am, but I am certainly not one to weigh ones opinion over another because of 'pedigree' claims. Even if someone is a virtuoso at the game, does not mean their understanding of the under-the-hood workings are equally as adept.

This is a personal standing opinion, and not a reflection of PMBR, or even myself as a PMBR member:
I believe we are currently experiencing what we always experience in a transition to a new version. The initial reaction phase to the changelist, which most people are perceiving as nerfs and buffs. What's worse is that many people compare this to their pre-existing notions about the game. Such as 'tier-lists'. Which IMO, is folly to hold much stock with at this time (though the conversation and debate of tier lists is important, I think our understanding of where this game is headed in terms of cast balance and MUs, is still so rudimentary, I can't imagine why we would use tier lists as a point of defense)

That is to say, I think this game is still incredibly young, and analysis of the meta-game and growth is confused by how much carries over from Melee/Brawl, and how THAT changes with each release. As well as the list of character specific changes. Then reconciling how our global changes and character specific changes mesh together. What MUs change, how does the character fare overall comparative to older versions?

In my opinion, particularly with Lucario, I've seen a HUGE range of feedback. From this character still sucks, to this character is nearly perfect now, to he was OP before, what are you thinking? All defended in different ways, coming from all sorts of players. Lucario and others are certainly open to change. I am even testing alternatives to changes I already tested alternatives to, just in response to different feedback.

It is infinitely more valuable to me, and all of the other PMBR development team, that people work through our releases as IF no future patches may exist. Melee only progressed the way it did, because people had to accept the game and deal with it. When we have players calling BS on ProjectM, and do not have the drive to truly explore whats possible, it certainly has an impact on meta-game growth, and inhibits the kind of balance development we want to do, which is very targeted.

Ultimately, I do not agree Lucario is, in his current state, a 'problem character', at least, potentially more so than many other characters. Certainly I, and other PMBR, are keeping a close eye on many characters, anxiously awaiting the community to really push their meta-game, so we can confirm or deny our lingering balance concerns. I do think the potential is there for more than a handful of characters to present some major MU balancing issues, but the real question is, what will players be able to do reliably+consistently? Will this be a community wide phenomena, or is it concentrated to certain region(s)? Is there a disconnect between what are reasonable issues presented in typical high level play VS what is theoretically possible? (I.E. un-'human' level reaction+execution+consistency) Etc Etc Etc.

Loving conversation. Just wanted to drop some thoughts.

 

[dRevan64]

The reality of patches and changes to a character in a fighting game really open the floodgates to a new way of looking at and discussing the game. Back when melee came out there wasn't such a thing as patches. A couple version differences, but between the NTSC editions very little noticeably changed and most people who played NTSC didn't play PAL because they were regionally based, even though PAL can in ways be viewed as a major balance change to melee. So we get falco with the most powerful projectile possibly ever envisioned in a fighting game, sheik with a chaingrab that has 3 weeks of hitstun and everything about fox. We dealt with it. It wasn't even imaginable as an option that we would do otherwise. What was in the game is what was in the game. The most balancing that happened was collective community decisions to disallow certain features (turning items on, jank stages, abusing icies freeze glitch and wobbling) and even that sort of ban was fairly limited in its distribution. The most notable individual feature ban so to speak, wobbling, was so controversial it's still argued regularly today.

Now that steady, unchanging quality to melee–at least to what's on the disc–isn't inherently a good thing. But it's essential to understand for how melee's (and brawl's, and 64's) metagame has developed over its lifespan.
Each of those games in a lot of ways has developed to be heavily exclusionary in the sense that some characters just don't compete. It could also be restated to say that some characters dominate overwhelmingly and that's an issue of perspective although I think it's more the latter than the former in the case of brawl. That's obviously not something people want to happen with project m and that's where the luxury of having a continually updated game comes into play.

The problem then arises when very frequently people want to abuse that luxury. There is a reasonably well known t-shirt that I think reflex was wearing at tipped off 9 the other day, the broken tier "Nerf buff patch ADAPT" shirt, and while in a way it's a little bit callous as sometimes things are legitimately deserving of changes it is a sentiment that absolutely needs to be considered when discussing character balance. It is a very clear product of PM's updates that people react very very quickly to perceived inadequacies in the game design by saying this or that needs to be buffed or nerfed, and the fear I have is that as a result the metagame might not be allowed adequate time to develop. That line of organic development vs. direct intervention is I imagine a very difficult one to walk.

In any case, I certainly don't believe that reading patch notes from the most recent release and providing anecdotes, however much experience is involved, is a convincing argument for a characters uncompetitiveness. I don't think the amalgamated results of recent PM play suggest it. That said, I didn't necessarily believe this for Ivysaur, for Sonic, or for Ike when those characters were dominant and visible so maybe I err on the side of conservative alteration. Point is, give it time.

As an aside Vanguard personal credentials/pedigree arguing is a derivative of the appeal from authority fallacy, this sort of thing happens all the time on sb (well I think yadda yadda yadda and m2k agrees so bite me etc). In all fairness, I think it was only brought up because someone called bread-butterer a bad player which is the exact opposite fallacy.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Why not just let the character shine for a while? Characters fade in and out of relevance as people develop strategies for/against them. Thats how a game develops. Calling for nerfs pre-emptively is destructive. Can you name at least 2-3 characters that can easily compete with Lucario if not best him match-up wise? If so then just switch characters. The game starts at character select.

If you would like to provide evidence for feedback, I'd like to hear some well-tested critical information. What exactly are these "automatic 60% combos?" And even when he gets them how does he kill?

He can safely approach with what, dash attack and jab cancels? And if you shield he grabs you out of it from the air? This is classic rock-paper-scissors gameplay. Except Spacies can do this much faster by running up and nair/shining with a 1-frame move, which leads into jump-cancel grab, wavedash, nair, another shine etc. Lucario has more range but I find a lot of these approaches as slow. It'd take a really good player to successfully use side-B on opponents who are constantly moving as well. The range is not so great. Yoshi has great range on his neutral-B and armor on his double jump. Its not specific to Lucario.

So given that you properly DI, what guaranteed combos does Lucario have? If not guaranteed, what situations can Lucario put you in where you have little options but to take a hit? Out of his options that have a lot of range, most of them are grounded(Utilt, smash attacks). For options that have a lot of speed, jab, nair, and maybe side-B if you can somehow get close enough. He doesn't have a lot of air momentum to chase you, just down-B.

I'm not trying to disprove anything but this would probably be valuable information. I like what was done with this character, but I feel like both statements regarding him are always heavily exaggerated because he simply works differently and his mechanics aren't similar to any other character/ruleset already established in smash, but in reality he still shares similar properties and gameplay.

Edit: Also if you remember me Delorted, I've spent the last few years playing traditional fighters competitively and I don't think Lucario resembles them at all. Mostly because of the way shields work in Smash, how crouch canceling works, and the fact that combos in smash are largely movement-oriented rather then strung together by a series of inputs.

 

[Deleted member]

Full disclosure: I used to be PMBR (or whatever it was called at the time). This was a few years ago, though.

I appreciate dRevan's final comment. While I do think pedigree holds some water, it should only matter very slightly and be brought into account only when someone else assumes the worst. It's not that relevant until the attacks begin.

I think the immutability of Melee is bad and Project Melee should not embrace the philosophy of "play like there will never be another patch." It's an honorable enough idea, but in practicality it doesn't work. If there are significantly noticeable balance issues, we should be able to present our findings to the community without feeling like we're awful players or something. I don't think this is entirely the case, but patches should be expected. The most competitive (and balanced) e-sports games currently in vogue are constantly changing and tweaking minor things, and they have been doing so since their betas. You can still develop new strategies and break new ground throughout the balancing process.

Finally, the tournament results of this game are skewed. Because this is a new enough game and the scene is still relatively small, I'd argue the scientific rigor is drawing from too small a sample size. There are also a ****load of characters, making it that much harder to telegraph every single match-up this stage in the game's life.

Edit: I remember you, Mauser. (How's it going?) Lucario's hand-to-hand A combos and uppercuts link together without the input micro that other characters would demand. If not Street Fighter, he's like Jago from Killer Instinct or something.

 

[bec]

every time i read someone whining about lucario being OP without having played him, all i get from it is "i don't understand this matchup and i'm not willing to learn it so we should nerf the character"

in all seriousness though, lucario is a good and solid character but he's not OP. he's easy to punish and his approach options are somewhat limited without aura, at least compared to some characters. his recovery, from the bottom at least, is easily gimped especially now that the oh so vital wall cling is gone completely. even in 2.6 if i didn't sweet spot the edge (which was admittedly made easier, but still somewhat tricky for a scrub like me) i would almost always get bopped. still happens in 3.0 but hey, i'm working on sweet spotting it. like others have said, the aura bomb is ridiculously easy to avoid/power shield/etc. he takes a lot of work and skill to be able to pull of what he does. mashing buttons just leads to dropping combos and getting punished, hard.

basically just play your friend a lot. lose a lot. win sometimes. you will get better in the matchup. watch the lucario tourney matches on youtube and see what the other player does successfully and what gets them killed. hell, even play lucario for a bit. but most of all just play the matchup and learn to play it smarter. matchups that seemed unwinnable to me when i first started playing are now much better for me and thats after just two months or so of play.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

If you're gonna be obnoxious about this, at least understand what "metagame" actually means. Limited? By what, the lack of innovation?

???

Protip for arguing on the internet: don't throw around terms you haven't grasped; don't reveal that you don't know what you're talking about.

not being obnoxious, if i worded it in such a way then forgive me, and i do know what metagame means, and he is limited as is every other character bc the game is not finished with balance, in the next patch they could completely change his super aura ball into something else and any strategies and any advantages that he had by using the super aura ball are gone. Its also a big reason why some of the more pesky melee vets don't want to give PM a chance until its finished, bc what if they continually learn some new technique with that attack and then in the next patch its removed? they lost their hard work etc. so when i say limited its simply bc this still isn't the last definite version of lucario.

On another note, you really shouldn't use personal experience to give your argument or opinion weight, bc it doesn't, and it certainly doesn't justify your friend johning about traits or moves that are incredibly easy to punish and/or find a flaw in.

I mean really? His recovery is amazing, its hard to hit, seriously?

 

[Giygacoal]

His cancel system can only work if the other player doesn't smash DI out of it, and for half the cast, don't even work well. Against new threats (Kirby, Olimar) and old threats (Jiggly, Zelda, Peach), his combo system will often push the opponent up rather than forward naturally, even without DI. This causes him to whiff most combos, and the big problem with that is that if he does not connect with a portion of his combo, he suffers the full endlag, leading to a retaliation that will often kill a lighter character. Even if you predict your opponent to go up rather than back, your U-smash has a forward momentum that will often cause the majority of the damage to miss.

It's possible that Lucario actually has some fairly consistent/guaranteed combos to complement combos that are escapable but hard to correctly SDI. I've been paying attention to characters and damage percents to figure out what works.

 

[Szion]

No offense, but it seems more like your friend simply doesn't know how to capitalize on lucario's various weaknesses. Me and many other people here can assure you guys that lucario is an amazing character with tons of hidden potential, but the current meta-game for him is very limited, not to mention how incredibly unsafe his combo strings are with practically everyone, Di in general is his bane

I just think bread-butterer should try some other tactics other than bread&butter tactics, just saying

I thought he was being sarcastic and funny.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

so what characters are a ***** for lucario to beat?
snake and peach come to mind, any others? maybe kirby and jiggs?

 

[bec]

in my experience, characters that are tough for lucario would be definitely snake and peach, some characters with swords, because they can keep lucario out where he needs to get in. mario, depends on the person playing and how jank they are. i can beat my friend's mario soundly but he plays really basic and is hella predictable. and mewtwo seems difficult but i don't have a lot of experience with the matchup yet.
kirby, it depends. a friend of mine plays a pretty solid kirby and if i'm feeling the match we go fairly toe to toe but if i'm not careful i'll get bopped hard. and i haven't played a jigglypuff in anything but friendlies

edit: i should mention that before 3.0, "random" was suggested as a good counterpick against lucario.

also what my boy abstract says VVV

 

[AbstractLogic]

Lucario tends to have trouble with (I definitely wouldn't say loses to) characters with either solid zoning capabilities eg: Links/Snake/Olimar (maybe?) or characters that have very solid defensive/OoS options Spacies/Diddy/Peach. He has a rushdown style and aura which is a bit of an X factor in matchups. I really don't see lucario having anything insurmountable with the proper application of his aura techniques.

 

[Vanguard]

This discussion looks like its about to get sidetracked. Consider talking about MUs in his official discussion thread, or another MU related thread so these posts don't get lost in the mix.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey Vanguard, can you comment on my Aura Bomb suggestion?

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

i was trying to get people to say what characters can trump lucario so the guy could take the hint of considering playing one of those characters to have a easier time taking on lucario instead of coming here asking for the nerf stick to come a swingin'.

 

[Mr.Random]

Why did Lucario get buffed?

 

[Red(SP)]

I really doubt the OP was around to learn why Lucario was 'tweaked' after the 2.1 era.
Otherwise, he would know why these changes occurred.

 

[TheFoolishPhilosopher]

Lucario tends to have trouble with (I definitely wouldn't say loses to) characters with either solid zoning capabilities eg: Links/Snake/Olimar (maybe?) or characters that have very solid defensive/OoS options Spacies/Diddy/Peach. He has a rushdown style and aura which is a bit of an X factor in matchups. I really don't see lucario having anything insurmountable with the proper application of his aura techniques.

Beyond that his aerial approaches are pretty much limited to double team (his aerials are easily punished by longer range attacks on other characters)
Don't get me wrong, I love double team and Lucario's f-air is amazing for edgeguarding and combos, but his approaching Diddy is really hard because of the range issues he has in the air (without charges)
Against Diddy when the dash attack option gets sealed by bananas, I had trouble getting in. I could Aura spam but I'd end up getting outpoked by bananas and peanuts.
This might just be Abstract's style vs mine, but in that Diddy matchup rushdown tactics were really ineffective for me, which limited my options a lot and shook my game up a good deal. I'm trying to figure out how I could've done better. My best guess would be to wait n' bait a smash out or use a charge to suckerpunch your way in, but I need some more experience to really figure it out.

 

[AbstractLogic]

Beyond that his aerial approaches are pretty much limited to double team (his aerials are easily punished by longer range attacks on other characters)
Don't get me wrong, I love double team and Lucario's f-air is amazing for edgeguarding and combos, but his approaching Diddy is really hard because of the range issues he has in the air (without charges)
Against Diddy when the dash attack option gets sealed by bananas, I had trouble getting in. I could Aura spam but I'd end up getting outpoked by bananas and peanuts.
This might just be Abstract's style vs mine, but in that Diddy matchup rushdown tactics were really ineffective for me, which limited my options a lot and shook my game up a good deal. I'm trying to figure out how I could've done better. My best guess would be to wait n' bait a smash out or use a charge to suckerpunch your way in, but I need some more experience to really figure it out.

The key to approaching Diddy in the matchup is a test of a good lucario because as you said, bananas shut down dash attacks. Instead of opting for dash attacks a tactic that got Xeven lots of mileage against me was the short hop dair to cross up my shield and then side-b in which he's usually either combo to around 60% or tech chase with up/down throws. Diddy can be hard to get in on, but lucario combos him HARD at early-mid percents. A big thing in this matchup and in general is to be less reliant on dash attack. Keep a solid game with DD camping and capitalizing off of his great throw game.

 

[Mera Mera]

Edit: Please ignore. Moved my post to the Lucaryu Discussion thread where it probably belongs

 

[Zoa]

I was thinking over attributes about Lucario this version, and I'm a little bit baffled. Why was wall cling out of DJ removed like ExtremeSpeed? It's now nerfed to only one hang per time in the air, and you can't DJ after expending it. That would just leave wall jump and ExtremeSpeed. Lucario's already in possession of a versatile, though predictable, recovery. I fail to see how a DJ wall cling would alter his recovery outside of what he has now given that it wouldn't change how predictable his recovery would be.

Why does Lucario start with an aura charge? I could understand that it would help approaches, but the idea behind P:M Lucario is reward for your skill. Not a reward for making mistakes like vanilla Brawl. It defeats some of the purpose. Being given an aura charge at the start of each stock can be changed to reducing the cooldown behind Aura Sphere shots. It will give him a better tool to force approaches, and even approach characters like Link, somewhat better. All levels of Aura Sphere are within the damage limits to clank with the majority of projectiles with a clankable hitbox. Reducing the cooldown to make AS somewhat more spammable will help with so many MUs that easily keep Lucario out of range without aura.

 

[Hylian]

Here's a Lucario (Vanguard) vs. Falco (Redd) matchup (this is pre 3.0 Lucario, so he hasn't received his recent buffs.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwar4sptw4

I believe this match gives a suitable context for what I'm saying. Even the commentator discusses the matchup as interesting because Falco and Lucario both have such strong pressure games. I think it's clear when you watch this video that in capable hands, Lucario can be nothing short of an offensive force. It's interesting when people say he shouldn't be getting hit by his cancels and combos, and that you just have to DI this, and avoid that, but when you watch a match you see how that is so much easier said than done.

Another recent Vanguard video with Luario's current buffs showing just how overwhelming his approach and pressure game is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbL4zgwm_FU
Look at Squeak's face. It's the same look I get on my face when I play against this character. It's the "why is this fair?" face.

As it stands, Vanguard is just about the only prominent Lucario player, so people aren't aware of this yet. His offensive options are only just being explored, and they look like that. I'm not exaggerating when I say my friend Daniel is close to this skill level with Lucario, and it's incredibly frustrating to play against him. In both of those matches, look at his opponent's faces.

In those matches it's very obvious the players aren't too familiar with Lucario. Van is also not the only prominent Lucario. Many Lucario players will fall into patterns in their pressure that are fairly easy to punish if you know what's going on. For example a lot will dash attack -> fsmash -> down-b a shield, which you can punish consistently. Side-b mix-ups are harder to punish but still fine given you have enough time to react to the animations before it grabs you, this is most common from DA or jabx2. If the lucario doesn't use dtilt much CC can be very effective and if he does there are ways around it. Lucario is also pretty easy to edgeguard not sure why you have problems with that. I just played against Van last week a good amount while I was at magfest and if you saw videos you would understand how much better I understand lucario than those players, also there is nothing wrong with Van doing good against good players because he is good lol. Lucario is a good character, but in terms of balance he's nothing special.

 

[Darkgun]

I was thinking over attributes about Lucario this version, and I'm a little bit baffled. Why was wall cling out of DJ removed like ExtremeSpeed? It's now nerfed to only one hang per time in the air, and you can't DJ after expending it. That would just leave wall jump and ExtremeSpeed. Lucario's already in possession of a versatile, though predictable, recovery. I fail to see how a DJ wall cling would alter his recovery outside of what he has now given that it wouldn't change how predictable his recovery would be.

According to the patch notes, he did lose Wallcling from Extreme Speed this patch, but to my knowledge, he hasn't had a Wallcling out of a regular state in a long time. In fact, and I might have been inputting something wrong back when I first started, the Wallcling out of ES was really short. As for all of the jumping stuff you are referring to... I am not sure I understand what you're saying. I'll play with it some, but could I ask for a bit of clarification on what you mean there?

Why does Lucario start with an aura charge? I could understand that it would help approaches, but the idea behind P:M Lucario is reward for your skill. Not a reward for making mistakes like vanilla Brawl. It defeats some of the purpose. Being given an aura charge at the start of each stock can be changed to reducing the cooldown behind Aura Sphere shots. It will give him a better tool to force approaches, and even approach characters like Link, somewhat better. All levels of Aura Sphere are within the damage limits to clank with the majority of projectiles with a clankable hitbox. Reducing the cooldown to make AS somewhat more spammable will help with so many MUs that easily keep Lucario out of range without aura.

If I am not mistaken, it was noted that prior to getting the first charge, Lucario was at a bit of a handicap. Starting each stock with one charge did not improve approaches, but instead improved the consistency of play for the character, such that he now has the same approach options throughout more of the stock. This could have been done by decreasing the damage needed to obtain a charge, but I feel this was actually a less extreme and more graceful solution to the problem.

 

[Zoa]

According to the patch notes, he did lose Wallcling from Extreme Speed this patch, but to my knowledge, he hasn't had a Wallcling out of a regular state in a long time. In fact, and I might have been inputting something wrong back when I first started, the Wallcling out of ES was really short. As for all of the jumping stuff you are referring to... I am not sure I understand what you're saying. I'll play with it some, but could I ask for a bit of clarification on what you mean there?

Yes. My apologies that I didn't word it as I was thought. Wall cling out of DJ would be nothing more than add on to Lucario's recovery options. Wall cling out of ES was a bit much if angled properly since it added on an additional wall jump, or even a DJ that hasn't been used if I recall correctly. Combine that with air dodge for a potentially tricky way to recover. Wall cling out of DJ would remove those options, but not change Lucario's current recovery all that much. It would just be an additional tool to recover in some situations while retaining Lucario's unique mechanics from Brawl.

If I am not mistaken, it was noted that prior to getting the first charge, Lucario was at a bit of a handicap. Starting each stock with one charge did not improve approaches, but instead improved the consistency of play for the character, such that he now has the same approach options throughout more of the stock. This could have been done by decreasing the damage needed to obtain a charge, but I feel this was actually a less extreme and more graceful solution to the problem.

I agree that it was a less extreme solution, yet focusing on improving his approach options without aura would've seemed like the go to option given his options without aura. While starting a stock does increase consistency in play style, it also defeats some of Lucario's purpose where his play style rewards skill over mistakes. Increasing general attributes for Lucario, instead of completely relying on aura, to make subtle improvements where he lacks would be a better design choice for balance. Putting too much emphasis on aura, without enough attributes for Lucario to approach characters that can keep him out, hurts his neutral game options overall.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

Yeah, it sure is stupid how his one actually broken trait of being able to wall cling out of Up-B is still around.

Oh. Right. That gigantic nerf.

yeah i think squirtle and diddy should lose it too its just sooooooooo OP ya know? lol why dont they just go back to 2.1 and slowly work down the nerf list from there, much better base than what we have now

 

[Kally Wally]

...Squirt and DDK can't wall cling out of Up-B. Lucario could literally climb Dracula's Castle at whatever pace he wanted, it was stupid.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ B Bread-Butterer Ya gonna be active sometime soon? I wanna hear an update on your views