Lucario BUFFED AGAIN?

[Bread-Butterer]

I've replaced my initial post because it was emotionally charged, and was thus garnering responses of a similar nature.

I'm copying one of my later posts now that I think got to the point more succinctly and clearly.


In response to one of Vanguard's posts:

I think that Lucario is unbalanced by no fault of your own, but because he is very un-smash. When I say this, I mean he doesn't play by the previously established rules that other characters in smash games have followed. I know that he was designed with this in mind, so that's not an opinion. Based on the fact that he has his own unique set of rules that set him apart from every other character, it can be hard to tune him appropriately. There are simply a lot of variables that are hard to predict when considering the way his unorthodox playstyle will operate under different circumstances.

Having said this, I don't think he's far from being balanced. My friend Daniel is admittedly a strong player, and has taken to Lucario very well. It's incredibly overwhelming to play against him. When he gets in the flow of things once he's warmed up, his attack can be nearly unstoppable. This is where my concern comes into play that Lucario has such an intimidating pressure game that he doesn't need to focus much on his defensive game. I would compare his pressure, at times, to Falco's. I know, he can only cancel moves if he makes contact... but it's important for everyone here to note that characters make contact in this game quite regularly. The difference is that Falco has definite defensive weaknesses that can be exploited that go a ways towards balancing him. Lucario's recovery allows him to make it back from nearly anywhere. On top of this, his recovery is covered in hitboxes, and he can actually cancel out it. He can also recover a great distance while neutral-airing, which I find to be overboard. I realize that a concession has been made in that he can't wall cling anymore.

Before the 3.0 update, I told Daniel that I think if Lucario received 1 major nerf, or two minor nerfs, he would be a solid, balanced character who still has lots of upside.

My friends and I (who all agree he needed a nerf, including Daniel), decided that this nerf could be 1 or 2 of the following (indicated by numbers next to nerf suggested: (1/2)means that another nerf with the same number value needed for it to be adequate, (1) being the only nerf needed for it to be adequate):

- A recovery that doesn't deal damage (1/2)
- A recovery that he can't attack out of immediately (1/2)
-A shortened recovery (1)
- Alterations to his projectiles: Aura Sphere has less knockback, and Super Auro Sphere can also damage Lucario or lasts 1 second less (1)
- Making it substantially more difficult to fill his super meter (1)
- Removing forcepalm pyhysical damage if it is not sweet-spotted into a grab (1/2)
- Reducing range of his forward smash (1/2)
- Removing the ability to frame cancel his dash attack (1)

That's what comes to mind right now.

I was (obviously) distressed by the fact that he received 1 decent nerf that was accompanied by 3 major buffs after the 3.0 update. Daniel was equally baffled by this decision.

I think I've said all that I can on the matter. I hope you consider this. I strongly believe that in his current state, Lucario will climb his way to the top of the tier list as the metagame develops.

 

[Kally Wally]

Yeah, it sure is stupid how his one actually broken trait of being able to wall cling out of Up-B is still around.

Oh. Right. That gigantic nerf.

 

[iLink]

Top 3 approaches?

Are you playing the same game? Fox and Falco have more frame tight offense than he does. Try slipping out between his cancels on shield and you'll see yourself. His "auto-combos" hardly work if you know how to DI the right way.

 

[NameChange]

All I can say is Lucario is far from his 2.0-2.1 incarnation
God that was a beast

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

He has no weaknesses..

Are you even listening to yourself? First you made it sound like Wario had been nerfed to the point where he wasn't worth playing, despite being one of the best characters in the game and an incredibly dominating stage force. Now you're saying that Lucario is so good that he has no weaknesses?

You are seriously johning hard. Learn the matchup or play a character that has a better matchup against Lucario if you're having such a hard time against him.

Yeah, Lucario can combo, but he still has the same problem he's always had and that's a lack of truly reliable kills. He can kill with nair if it hits, making it multi-hit has allowed him to have a slightly better chance of landing it.

Lucario has a predictable recovery and cannot stall himself while in the air, or truly threaten without risking his life in the process while coming back.

At low %, he can get some combos going, but they aren't guaranteed to last unless you're perfect at predicting with your low-priority attacks.

 

[Kally Wally]

Also, Lucario doesn't have a good way of dealing with pressure. All of his options out of shield are pretty bad, and he's not exactly hard to combo.

Also also lol @ top 3 approach.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

You are seriously johning hard.

Truth.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Also also lol @ top 3 approach.

I think people are finding this statement really baffling because they haven't faced a really good Lucario. On the surface, he feels kind of clunky and slow. When you get a real handle on his mechanics and get everything flowing though... ****. My boy Divine Knight would take you all to task with his Lucario. Trust me. You won't, but yeah.

 

[Giygacoal]

AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHA

Learn how to smash DI play this game dude

Seriously, the regular Aura Sphere is one of the least effective projectiles in the game when the opponent is on-stage.

He isn't particularly good at approaching except when he has a charge.

On the surface, he feels kind of clunky and slow.

Are we talking about the same game?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I think people are finding this statement really baffling because they haven't faced a really good Lucario. On the surface, he feels kind of clunky and slow. When you get a real handle on his mechanics and get everything flowing though... ****. My boy Divine Knight would take you all to task with his Lucario. Trust me. You won't, but yeah.

We find it baffling because it's not true.

I'm not a Lucario master, but have enough experience playing with him that I know his weaknesses pretty well. He has not been buffed to the point that these weaknesses are gone and he's definitely not at 2.1 stupid levels anymore.

His recovery is worse than it used to be. His nair was buffed a little bit to be more reliable, and he gets to start each stock with a super charge to increase his options instead of being relegated to a one-dimensional approach game at every single stock. This will alleviate some of his problems, but he hasn't suddenly gone to "No weakness" levels yet.

 

[Szion]

Hey, your skeleton called, it wants it's numbskull back =_=.

Lucario's down B buff was to reduce the nonsensical hang time on it, that they placed on it to prevent OP comboing. They found middle ground in order to nerf the combo ability without making the move have crazy vulnerability.

As for starting with an aura charge, i dont see that happening on my 3.0. Idk why.

 

[iLink]

I think people are finding this statement really baffling because they haven't faced a really good Lucario. On the surface, he feels kind of clunky and slow. When you get a real handle on his mechanics and get everything flowing though... ****. My boy Divine Knight would take you all to task with his Lucario. Trust me. You won't, but yeah.

His approach options are unsafe. Unlike some other characters, if he whiffs his approach options (which are like... dash attack and maybe fair), then the cool down on it is easily punishable. Not to say that his dash attack isn't really good when used properly, but if you actually know Lucario's weaknesses, you can use his approach against him.

 

[Dinowulf]

Hey, your skeleton called, it wants it's numbskull back =_=.

Lucario's down B buff was to reduce the nonsensical hang time on it, that they placed on it to prevent OP comboing. They found middle ground in order to nerf the combo ability without making the move have crazy vulnerability.

As for starting with an aura charge, i dont see that happening on my 3.0. Idk why.

okay so it's not just you i thought it was a glitch on mine

 

[Szion]

His approach options are unsafe. Unlike some other characters, if he whiffs his approach options (which are like... dash attack and maybe fair), then the cool down on it is easily punishable. Not to say that his dash attack isn't really good when used properly, but if you actually know Lucario's weaknesses, you can use his approach against him.

Agreed. This sums up why the thread creator knows nothing about this character.

Also, I'm not seeing multihits on 3.0 lucario's Nair

 

[Kally Wally]

The multihits don't normally come into play. I've gotten them to happen once or twice on shield, but that's it.

 

[Szion]

Oh...Ok, i guess. Gonna look for videos now..

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Agreed. This sums up why the thread creator knows nothing about this character.

Also, I'm not seeing multihits on 3.0 lucario's Nair

funny, as I would suggest making the statement that any characters approach is limited to two moves displays that you know nothing about the game in general. Of course the fact that your avatar is Lucario pretty much ensures you're not going to approach the topic with an open mind, so no surprise there. If you're having trouble approaching with Lucario I suggest you practice more. If he misses an attack he's only as vulnerable as any other character who misses an attack. His uptilt is an excellent emergency sweep move in these circumstances. as are his jabs and downsmash. A little bit of spacing (as is necessary on any character's approach) goes a long way. The mistake I've made is posting in the Lucario board, of course a call for nerfing won't be recieved here. I'll only say that serving the lowest common demoninator who can't take advantage of his strong approach options will only hurt the metagame going forward

 

[Kally Wally]

So then, what are his strongest approach options?

Enlighten us.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

His grab has a deceptive range on it, and it's quick. He can grab you from mid-air (force palm), through your shield, an option that is unique to him and a couple other characters. His dash attack would be good if you couldn't cancel it on contact (good range, knocks you into combo range, quick, safe), the fact that you can makes it ridiculous. With some spacing on your approach he has plenty of great options. His uptilt is quick, and covers a lot of space around him and sets up perfectly into his combo wheel-house. His forward smash has tremendous range and good knockback. His downair has great duration, and can be followed up directly by a forcepalm air-grab if shielded before he touches the ground. If downdodged, the latter half of the move will make contact. He can tech-chase/continue pressure on multiple platform levels with his force palm, which has physical damage even if it doesn't sweetspot into a grab. His jab moves him forward and has solid range and priority, and is an mini-auto combo on contact that leaves opponents in combo range. He can teleport to throw off opponents and put himself in an advantageous position. His giant spirit bomb attack (name escapes me) can be used brilliantly along with any of those options as he can severely limit his opponents movement options while moving freely himself (that thing should seriously be able to hurt him too). If he makes contact with any of his attacks, which is an inevitability in the game of smash, he can cancel it. Telling me that you shouldn't allow him to make contact with your body or shield suggests right off the bat that he has an unfair advantage in his approach game.

If you haven't executed these tremendous options regularly, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Giygacoal]

Get good at this game, kid.

 

[Vanguard]

Sup bro? You coming to Apex? You can come tell me that my work on Lucario is bad and I should feel bad.

In seriousness though, I'd love to address complaints, albeit I feel this is just initial reaction. I would bet given a few months, and careful attention payed to successful Lucario players' results in tournament, both past an present, you may not feel so passionately that Lucario is so out-of-balance with the rest of the cast.

I personally commiserate with those here who feel perhaps you're overplaying Lucario's strengths a little here. Your reasoning is colored a lot with adjectives describing things as 'great' or otherwise. For instance, have you reviewed Lucario's frame data thread? Lucario's cancels are not instant. You can see broken down, not only how to optimally navigate Lucario's cancel tree, depending the the general scenario, but likewise, what your options are in response to Lucario's pressure. Depending on MU, you might be able to CC his attacks until very high %, and most of the time, are able to interrupt him mid combo. You can buffer rolls out of shield to address any attempt to force SideB grab on shield. You can always shield grab to counter any attempt to teleport DownB escape. His Super Aura Sphere is one of the easiest projectiles to power shield in the game (not even going to go in depth on why it's, imo, his worst super. (worst =/= bad, though)) Also, if you don't fall like a rock, always DI up and away. You'll find yourself escaping the majority of Lucario's potent chains at low-mid%s.
Those are just some starting points.

Lucario may be able to perform some pretty unorthodox things, but he was designed with it all in mind. He has weaknesses unique to him (such as every move having notable commitment so that all whiffed moves are way easier to punish that comparative moves on other characters; as a balancing measure of his OHC) Also, his aerial force palm continues to receive adjustments. I think we've done a pretty good job ensuring it has enough startup, and is sized appropriately, such that comboing into it only occurs in reasonably sized % windows. Also, it's important to note that, even though you stressed it's a free kill, it's actually an average strength meteor, which as you know, you can cancel. You can perform a more powerful spike at the cost of a super.

There's still plenty of metagame to unfold, and it's certainly possible that Lucario still has balancing issues. But I've spent so long debugging this character now, working frame by frame, comparing every little under-the-hood detail to the rest of the...I'm very hard pressed to believe that the character has any seriously problematic balancing issues in general. Specific MUs remain to be seen (and that goes for everyone)

Looking forward to keeping the conversation going.

 

[Skimchee]

I love when people post threads demanding nerfs because their friends beat them all the time.

 

[dRevan64]

Juans

 

[Bread-Butterer]

There's still plenty of metagame to unfold, and it's certainly possible that Lucario still has balancing issues. But I've spent so long debugging this character now, working frame by frame, comparing every little under-the-hood detail to the rest of the...I'm very hard pressed to believe that the character has any seriously problematic balancing issues in general. Specific MUs remain to be seen (and that goes for everyone)

Looking forward to keeping the conversation going.

I wouldn't tell you that you did a bad job and should feel bad, but I'd gladly tell you I think he needs some tweaking. I think everyone working on PM is doing a tremendous job and working hard. I forget sometimes that coming in here and talking **** means the people who have poured long, passionate hours into the project will see what I'm writing. When I wrote the OP I'd just finished a long play session, and I was a bit frustrated. Apologies. I thank you for your respectful and level-headed response. Truthfully, the responses I was getting from others in here was only fueling my fire. Knowing that you're open minded and reasonable will allow me to articulate my concerns with more clarity.

Before I begin, I'd like to point out that a lot of responses to my posts have been baseless assumptions about my skill level. To provide some context, I'm not a casual player offering my opinion. I was previously a regular Melee player in the Toronto scene. I've been playing competitively since late 2004, and for about a year, and up until I retired for personal reasons, I was arguably the best player in Toronto, and potentially in all of Ontario. After retiring, I continued playing regularly with friends and members active in the scene (Including KirbyKaze, and Unknown522 on a regular basis). I know high level smash. I've played high level smash. I was once a (relatively) high-level smasher. I'm not saying this to brag, just so that you know I have a foundation of knowledge about competitive smash that I'm pulling from.

I think that Lucario is unbalanced by no fault of your own, but because he is very un-smash. When I say this, I mean he doesn't play by the previously established rules that other characters in smash games have followed. I know that he was designed with this in mind, so that's not an opinion. Based on the fact that he has his own unique set of rules that set him apart from every other character, it can be hard to tune him appropriately. There are simply a lot of variables that are hard to predict when considering the way his unorthodox playstyle will operate under different circumstances.

Having said this, I don't think he's far from being balanced. My friend Daniel is admittedly a strong player, and has taken to Lucario very well. It's incredibly overwhelming to play against him. When he gets in the flow of things once he's warmed up, his attack can be nearly unstoppable. This is where my concern comes into play that Lucario has such an intimidating pressure game that he doesn't need to focus much on his defensive game. I would compare his pressure, at times, to Falco's. I know, he can only cancel moves if he makes contact... but it's important for everyone here to note that characters make contact in this game quite regularly. The difference is that Falco has definite defensive weaknesses that can be exploited that go a ways towards balancing him. Lucario's recovery allows him to make it back from nearly anywhere. On top of this, his recovery is covered in hitboxes, and he can actually cancel out it. He can also recover a great distance while neutral-airing, which I find to be overboard. I realize that a concession has been made in that he can't wall cling anymore.

Before the 3.0 update, I told Daniel that I think if Lucario received 1 major nerf, or two minor nerfs, he would be a solid, balanced character who still has lots of upside.

My friends and I (who all agree he needed a nerf, including Daniel), decided that this nerf could be 1 or 2 of the following (indicated by numbers next to nerf suggested: (1/2)means that another nerf with the same number value needed for it to be adequate, (1) being the only nerf needed for it to be adequate):

- A recovery that doesn't deal damage (1/2)
- A recovery that he can't attack out of immediately (1/2)
-A shortened recovery (1)
- Alterations to his projectiles: Aura Sphere has less knockback, and Super Auro Sphere can also damage Lucario or lasts 1 second less (1)
- Making it substantially more difficult to fill his super meter (1)
- Removing forcepalm pyhysical damage if it is not sweet-spotted into a grab (1/2)
- Reducing range of his forward smash (1/2)
- Removing the ability to frame cancel his dash attack (1)

That's what comes to mind right now.

I was (obviously) distressed by the fact that he received 1 decent nerf that was accompanied by 3 major buffs after the 3.0 update. Daniel was equally baffled by this decision.

I think I've said all that I can on the matter. I hope you consider this. I strongly believe that in his current state, Lucario will climb his way to the top of the tier list as the metagame develops.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I hope you don't think that I was saying you don't have skill or you're not a good player, cause that's not what I was trying to imply in this and the other thread. It really does seem like massive gripes about something that you personally haven't figured out or were pushed too far with. I get being frustrated when you can't get around or feel something is stupid, but it does lead to you being pretty biased when you're only looking at it from a position of being against it.

I feel Samus is obnoxious as hell. Floaty, heavy, easy recovery, tether, strong, long ranged attacks and the silly beam swap that she didn't need. (It's neat that she got it, but we all know it wasn't absolutely necessary.) I'm not gonna go into Samus forums and talk about how she should be toned down radically though, especially not when at the times, I'm only really able to look at it from the position of someone who can't stand fighting her.

Comparing Lucario and Falco seems a tad on the silly side to me. The level of pressure doesn't even seem similar to me. One can pelt you with lasers while moving closer and then pillar the everloving crap out of you, as well as spike you while trying to recover, and the other can hit you with low priority jabs/tilts/aerials and attempt to cancel them into other decently low priority/speed attacks. Lucario usually can't capitalize on any of the pressure he presents in the form of a kill, just about everything he does can be DI'd early on and there's very little Lucario can do about that because his aerials are only really good for dealing a lil extra damage.

Lucario's recovery isn't so great that it allows him to recover in a fashion much different from the majority of the game's cast and when he does, it's often a very linear path that is fairly easy to challenge and defeat. I do not see him rising to the top like you do. Maybe I'll be wrong, but outside of his ridiculous 2.1 incarnation, he hasn't really been the force of destruction that it sounded like you were making him out to be.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Comparing Lucario and Falco seems a tad on the silly side to me. The level of pressure doesn't even seem similar to me. One can pelt you with lasers while moving closer and then pillar the everloving crap out of you, as well as spike you while trying to recover, and the other can hit you with low priority jabs/tilts/aerials and attempt to cancel them into other decently low priority/speed attacks. Lucario usually can't capitalize on any of the pressure he presents in the form of a kill, just about everything he does can be DI'd early on and there's very little Lucario can do about that because his aerials are only really good for dealing a lil extra damage.

Lucario's recovery isn't so great that it allows him to recover in a fashion much different from the majority of the game's cast and when he does, it's often a very linear path that is fairly easy to challenge and defeat. I do not see him rising to the top like you do. Maybe I'll be wrong, but outside of his ridiculous 2.1 incarnation, he hasn't really been the force of destruction that it sounded like you were making him out to be.

Here's a Lucario (Vanguard) vs. Falco (Redd) matchup (this is pre 3.0 Lucario, so he hasn't received his recent buffs.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwar4sptw4

I believe this match gives a suitable context for what I'm saying. Even the commentator discusses the matchup as interesting because Falco and Lucario both have such strong pressure games. I think it's clear when you watch this video that in capable hands, Lucario can be nothing short of an offensive force. It's interesting when people say he shouldn't be getting hit by his cancels and combos, and that you just have to DI this, and avoid that, but when you watch a match you see how that is so much easier said than done.

Another recent Vanguard video with Luario's current buffs showing just how overwhelming his approach and pressure game is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbL4zgwm_FU
Look at Squeak's face. It's the same look I get on my face when I play against this character. It's the "why is this fair?" face.

As it stands, Vanguard is just about the only prominent Lucario player, so people aren't aware of this yet. His offensive options are only just being explored, and they look like that. I'm not exaggerating when I say my friend Daniel is close to this skill level with Lucario, and it's incredibly frustrating to play against him. In both of those matches, look at his opponent's faces.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Here's a Lucario (Vanguard) vs. Falco (Redd) matchup (this is pre 3.0 Lucario, so he hasn't received his recent buffs.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwar4sptw4

I believe this match gives a suitable context for what I'm saying. Even the commentator discusses the matchup as interesting because Falco and Lucario both have such strong pressure games. I think it's clear when you watch this video that in capable hands, Lucario can be nothing short of an offensive force. It's interesting when people say he shouldn't be getting hit by his cancels and combos, and that you just have to DI this, and avoid that, but when you watch a match you see how that is so much easier said than done.

Another recent Vanguard video with Luario's current buffs showing just how overwhelming his approach and pressure game is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbL4zgwm_FU
Look at Squeak's face. It's the same look I get on my face when I play against this character. It's the "why is this fair?" face.

As it stands, Vanguard is just about the only prominent Lucario player, so people aren't aware of this yet. His offensive options are only just being explored, and they look like that. I'm not exaggerating when I say my friend Daniel is close to this skill level with Lucario, and it's incredibly frustrating to play against him. In both of those matches, look at his opponent's faces.

Let's be completely fair with that first match of the first vid and the second vid. It was against a fast faller and as already mentioned, if you're a fast faller, getting out of anything can be difficult. Yeah, Lucario can be a pretty nice offensive force, but that's not to say that he's necessarily overpowered. To say that he is at this point seems like jumping to conclusions without doing the study.

It didn't really look like Lucario's opponents really knew Luc's tricks or potential, and that could skew the fight a bit in his favor. Match-up experience goes a long way and if you don't know how to play against something, even a character like 2.6b Squirtle can seem OP.

 

[Vanguard]

Squeak didn't know wtf he was getting into. Also to be fair, a lot of people's faces look like Squeaks when he uses MK vs them. lol.
Redd on the other hand used to be PMBR and actually played a lot of Lucario. Granted his experience with post 2.1 Lucario is more limited, but he did know what was going.
Mango, though I see now you didn't link that one, also lost because he didn't know what to do. But being the adapter that he is, he quickly picked up on what defensive techniques worked.

I have a pretty high opinion of Lucario. I also think that in a vacuum, he has some of the highest potential in the game. Though I think similarly of Fox, Falco, Lucas, some others. I also agree with the notion that he's got so much going on that hasn't been really done before / the same way in Smash that Matchup Experience is incredibly important to being able to appropriately respond to the character. But let me also say, that nothing introduced by Lucario is so foreign to the game that the general cast/mechanics aren't equipped to deal with it. Even if you have to respond to Lucario in a way you wouldn't normally vs the majority of characters. (I believe this is true of cancels of any kind. You're defensive options are narrowed. But balance occurs by making sure other defensive options are still reliably effective)

I'll address your above post more in-depth soon @Bread-Butterer

 

[SpiderMad]

How does 3.0 Down-b compare to 2.1?

 

[Giygacoal]

How does 3.0 Down-b compare to 2.1?

I think it has slightly more startup lag, but the invincibility/intangibility(?) window is slightly longer than it was in 2.6, which iirc is significantly longer than 2.1's. Smoother air to ground transition and better ability to act out of the move also carried over from the 2.6 version.
I think it feels great and is the best designed version of the move so far.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

As it stands, Vanguard is just about the only prominent Lucario player, so people aren't aware of this yet. His offensive options are only just being explored, and they look like that. I'm not exaggerating when I say my friend Daniel is close to this skill level with Lucario, and it's incredibly frustrating to play against him. In both of those matches, look at his opponent's faces.

OMG could it be? the lucario prodigy i've been waiting for?

but seriously though, this is just johning, it seems like your friend is simply a much better player than you, and obviously you could be biased bc he always uses said character

but lucario is not OP, in fact i think he's probably PMBR's greatest example of a unique, fun and versatile character design that takes as much or even more technical skill to use than fox/falco, not to mention the fact that he's not the reincarnation of MvC in this game, you can't just cancel everything into everything, and like EVERYONE else has already stated, lucario cannot whiff most of his attacks, if he does he gets punished very very very hard (think fox and falco) turns out his weight is perfect to combo with. He has great pressure options but that takes a good amount of understanding what attacks can be cancelled on shield without getting swatted away in the process or grabbed, compared to fox/falco constantly shine->aerial->shine->aerial/grab which is not hard to learn. Theres also the fact that lucario, being a pressure monster, barely has any options out of shield, which means he gets ***** when in shield.

sooo yeah, learn the match-up, or main marth

 

[SpiderMad]

I think it has slightly more startup lag, but the invincibility/intangibility(?) window is slightly longer than it was in 2.6, which iirc is significantly longer than 2.1's. Smoother air to ground transition and better ability to act out of the move also carried over from the 2.6 version.
I think it feels great and is the best designed version of the move so far.

So it's better than 2.1? I remember it being nerfed for being too good, but now it's the same or better?

 

[Mono.]

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Attributing this guy's complaints just as simple johning is down right disrespectful. I mean, the direction he is taking voicing them might not be the best, but telling him to, "get good at this game" and generally insulting him is not the way to go about it. I mean I hate to sound like a hippie here, but come on, we're a community here, lets try to have reasonable and respectable debates.

Now from that video of 3.0 lucario...I can definitely tell that squeak didn't now how to deal with lucario shenanigans, least at first. His di is mostly what set off red flags to me. He died from an fsmash in the middle of the stage at like 72, lol I don't think that should happen. I could see him starting to adapt to his pressure though, in the latter set especially. Like for example shield grabbing or rolling to get out of dash attack cancel into fsmash. So to be quite honest, I don't think that video could be used to make the argument of lucario being too good. Bread butterer do you have any videos with matches with you and your lucario friend? Because I think it would help your argument to see what exactly he is doing.

 

[Vanguard]

Just to dispel any confusion regarding DownB.
v3.0 data compared to v2.6: -3 frames startup, +3 frames active. +0 frames cooldown. Animation edited to compensate. Movement begins 3 frames earlier, travel frames are the same, and 3 frames added after movement stops. Distance traveled each frame is the same as before (this is important for momentum/spacing via cancels)

I'm going to start working on a Guide/Tips/Framedata thread as well.

 

[Giygacoal]

So it's better than 2.1? I remember it being nerfed for being too good, but now it's the same or better?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to overall be a sidegrade. It's definitely not the same. I think the old explanation from a long time ago is that the 2.1 version was nerfed in 2.5 for being too good for getting away from opponents (by moving back) instead of being strictly a frontal offensive yet evasive tool, or maybe the low startup made it too effective for what it's supposed to be as well. For whatever reason, the current version has slightly more startup lag than the 2.1 version, which is good because the 2.5-2.6b version was too laggy for anything. I think it's a sidegrade (that's probably more fair) because being in the move is safer now thanks to the increased intangibility.

I think Lucario might have a fascinating niche. At least from what I have seen and can imagine, he might have a roughly even matchup with characters like Fox, but also a disadvantageous matchup with long range fighters like Marth... maybe even Bowser.

 

[Mono.]

Attributing this guy's complaints just as simple johning is down right disrespectful. I mean, the direction he is taking voicing them might not be the best, but telling him to, "get good at this game" and generally insulting him is not the way to go about it. I mean I hate to sound like a hippie here, but come on, we're a community here, lets try to have reasonable and respectable debates.

BAWWW I CAN'T BEAT LUCARIO SO HE MUST BE 2STRONK deserves respectable debate, huh? Yeah no. You come at someone with respect, you get respect. I can understand if he was addressing his concerns about this character in a sincere and calm way, but throwing a tantrum in text? Piss off and git gud.

 

[AbstractLogic]

Can someone please explain to me why this god damn character keeps getting buffed? He's outstanding. He's been outstanding for the last 3 updates. He has no weaknesses. His approach is top 3 in the game, and I would argue it might be the best. He has so many options at any given moment. He can cancel nearly all of his moves. He can recover from anywhere. He has plenty of kill moves. He can summon giant energy balls out of nowhere. He doesn't even have use them because his smaller energy balls have a baffling amount of knockback and can be launched in succession with little to no startup time. He can combo you anywhere, at any time. Trying to shield his ridiculous air/land game pressure? Lucario doesn't give a ****, he can grab you while he's in the air, through your shield. What. His grab game leads perfectly into his combos. He's too fast. His edgeguard game is ridiculous. Not only does he have his tiny energy balls of doom that he can send out endlessly, but a forward smash with range that is bordering on silly considering the knockback it deals. Also, HE CAN GRAB YOU IN THE AIR AND INSTANT KILL YOU.

This character is not representative of what Smash is. It's supposed to be a balance of offence and defense. Lucario nullifies the need for critical thinking in a match, as you can literally just throw everything you've got at your opponent and frame cancel everything. Of course this doesn't mean he's invincible, but he's so overwhelming and has such a stupid approach game that you have to be nearly perfect against him lest he catches you once and deals an easy 60+ damage with automatic combos. Good luck if you use a slower character.

With this in mind, I was expecting a healthy nerf for 3.0... Well, couldn't have been more wrong!

YOU MADE HIS NEUTRAL AIR MULTI-HIT WITHOUT REDUCING THE DAMAGE?

MORE INVINCIBILITY FRAMES AND LESS START UP ON HIS ALREADY STUPID RECOVERY?

HE STARTS WITH A FULL SPECIAL CHARGE NOW?? WHAT IS THIS? WHY? WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?



It's actually insulting when you see some of the characters who have been needlessly nerfed, while this character just continues to receive improvements. Please, make it stop.

LOL troll harder man. Lucario is a solid character at this point but he did need a bit of help from 2.6. I'm very happy with what they've done to him.

 

[SpiderMad]

Just to dispel any confusion regarding DownB.
v3.0 data compared to v2.6: -3 frames startup, +3 frames active. +0 frames cooldown. Animation edited to compensate. Movement begins 3 frames earlier, travel frames are the same, and 3 frames added after movement stops. Distance traveled each frame is the same as before (this is important for momentum/spacing via cancels)

I'm going to start working on a Guide/Tips/Framedata thread as well.

What are 2.1's data compared to it? What's the reasoning in the changes that make it not warrant being changed like 2.1's: specifically it having more start-up and cooldown?

I think Lucario might have a fascinating niche. At least from what I have seen and can imagine, he might have a roughly even matchup with characters like Fox, but also a disadvantageous matchup with long range fighters like Marth... maybe even Bowser.

Bowser and others got nerfed while Lucario got buffed really good. I don't think he'll struggle all that much against anyone

LOL troll harder man. Lucario is a solid character at this point but he did need a bit of help from 2.6. I'm very happy with what they've done to him.

The guys nerf ideas weren't too outrageous (he mentioned basically just chose one out of the dozen he mentioned) and very well might come to fruition if Lucario starts kicking ass. Lucario and Diddy are both in the same boat for great to mediocre to really good, probly Sonic too and some of the new cast. I wouldn't be surprised if any of them got some small nerfs, not that I'm exactly hoping for any.

The guys just wrong to say that 2.6b Lucario needed nerfs, and that he has no weaknesses and plays by something Smash shouldn't (I find Lucario refreshing to Smash by having cancels like Vanguard said).

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

please... i beg you, dont make his aerial side b worse.
its the meteor that lucario deserves, but not the one it needs right now. so they nerfed it, because he can still take stocks without it. because he's not a spacie, he's a steadfast hero, an on hit canceller... an Aura Knight