Lucario and Friends discuss a tactical approach to: Marth

[phi1ny3]

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Someone!
RJ's convo w/ FlameWaveK about the Marth MU:

RJ Rawrr (2:50:24 PM): yo
FlameWaveK (2:52:31 PM): oh
FlameWaveK (2:52:34 PM): Hello
FlameWaveK (2:52:46 PM): Is this RJ from Smashboards RJ? :o
RJ Rawrr (2:52:53 PM): Who else
RJ Rawrr (2:52:53 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (2:53:00 PM): I'm not sure really
FlameWaveK (2:53:05 PM): I know someone named Rawr.
FlameWaveK (2:53:06 PM): so
RJ Rawrr (2:53:09 PM): mm
RJ Rawrr (2:53:12 PM): Anyway
RJ Rawrr (2:53:18 PM): what seems to be giving you an issue?
FlameWaveK (2:53:23 PM): Marth,
FlameWaveK (2:53:34 PM): Not the bad marths either
FlameWaveK (2:53:40 PM): The one that can actually space and read
FlameWaveK (2:53:42 PM): the bad ones
FlameWaveK (2:53:46 PM): just get ***** by fsmash
FlameWaveK (2:54:00 PM): Mike and Bardull make me so frustrated
FlameWaveK (2:54:20 PM): I get edgeguarded heavilly offstage and generally
FlameWaveK (2:54:29 PM): The difference in % is ussually drastic
RJ Rawrr (2:54:36 PM): lol
RJ Rawrr (2:54:40 PM): Takes time to get use too
RJ Rawrr (2:54:48 PM): Getting back on stage against marth isn't that hard
FlameWaveK (2:54:53 PM): really?
FlameWaveK (2:54:56 PM): it seems like quite the chore
RJ Rawrr (2:55:01 PM): People are just afraid to get to the edge
RJ Rawrr (2:55:14 PM): I can prob tell you what happens
RJ Rawrr (2:55:18 PM): Lets see here
RJ Rawrr (2:55:26 PM): The marth knocks you off stage
FlameWaveK (2:55:38 PM): mmhmm
RJ Rawrr (2:55:40 PM): then he prob jumps and just waits for your move
RJ Rawrr (2:55:44 PM): or
RJ Rawrr (2:55:47 PM): he waits on stage
RJ Rawrr (2:55:53 PM): and waits for you to come back
FlameWaveK (2:55:57 PM): onstage..
FlameWaveK (2:56:06 PM): well
FlameWaveK (2:56:14 PM): I kinda figured that airdodging into marth
FlameWaveK (2:56:16 PM): wasn't the best idea
FlameWaveK (2:56:52 PM): because I was getting forward smashed on landing and faired if I'm still airborne
RJ Rawrr (2:56:56 PM): You wouldnt happen to have any videos of you playing against them, would you?
FlameWaveK (2:57:01 PM): I wish
FlameWaveK (2:57:10 PM): Mike and Bardull don't like to recorded that much
RJ Rawrr (2:57:17 PM): Yea, I know that
FlameWaveK (2:57:25 PM): I might be able to sneak a replay on my TV next time
FlameWaveK (2:57:27 PM): bardull for sure
RJ Rawrr (2:57:27 PM): Even then, it's by your wishing as well
FlameWaveK (2:57:38 PM): he loves my wii only because it has music
FlameWaveK (2:57:48 PM): [and infinate replays]
RJ Rawrr (2:57:51 PM): Lets do this from my videos then
RJ Rawrr (2:58:01 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (2:58:05 PM): Okie
RJ Rawrr (2:58:06 PM): if you happen to save one to your wii
FlameWaveK (2:58:10 PM): I can record
RJ Rawrr (2:58:11 PM): you can prob send it to me
RJ Rawrr (2:58:14 PM): ahh
FlameWaveK (2:58:15 PM): I just put some matches up last night
FlameWaveK (2:58:17 PM): they're terrible
FlameWaveK (2:58:30 PM): I got ***** by peach and I forgot to save the rest
FlameWaveK (2:58:32 PM): but said peach
FlameWaveK (2:58:38 PM): haid so much lucario practice that day
FlameWaveK (2:58:40 PM): *had
FlameWaveK (2:58:45 PM): it wasn't even funny
FlameWaveK (2:59:02 PM): Stauffy in brackets twice + teams
FlameWaveK (2:59:27 PM): and plenty of friendlies VS inspire [the kid I brought over for his 1st tourney and placed the same as stauffy and beat a ranked player <3 so proud]
FlameWaveK (2:59:40 PM): but enough of getting off topic, you said we were gonna work off your videos>
FlameWaveK (2:59:40 PM): ?
RJ Rawrr (2:59:50 PM): Yepp
RJ Rawrr (2:59:51 PM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U7Z77v7GQc
RJ Rawrr (3:00:00 PM): before you start watching
RJ Rawrr (3:00:07 PM): I want you to keep this in mind
RJ Rawrr (3:00:11 PM): every time you play against marth
RJ Rawrr (3:00:16 PM): Marth's recovery is bad.
FlameWaveK (3:00:36 PM): hm
RJ Rawrr (3:00:42 PM): First off
FlameWaveK (3:00:45 PM): I know its absolutely terrible
FlameWaveK (3:00:48 PM): without the DJ
RJ Rawrr (3:00:57 PM): even then
RJ Rawrr (3:01:02 PM): I want you to
RJ Rawrr (3:01:03 PM): remember
RJ Rawrr (3:01:06 PM): how marth gets on stage
RJ Rawrr (3:01:10 PM): when you play against them
FlameWaveK (3:01:13 PM): recovers from below
FlameWaveK (3:01:17 PM): at least
RJ Rawrr (3:01:21 PM): Now
RJ Rawrr (3:01:24 PM): Keep this in mind
RJ Rawrr (3:01:29 PM): marth's ledge options
RJ Rawrr (3:01:33 PM): are 100% the wrose
RJ Rawrr (3:01:40 PM): To tell you the truth
RJ Rawrr (3:01:50 PM): You can harrass marth recovering
RJ Rawrr (3:01:53 PM): better then he can do it to you
FlameWaveK (3:02:11 PM): that makes a bit a sense to me..
FlameWaveK (3:02:42 PM): I'm was scared of chasing marth offstage since I Mike stagespiked me out of me trying to gimp him once that day.
FlameWaveK (3:02:46 PM): Inspire didn't give a ****
FlameWaveK (3:02:51 PM): and he aggro'd them whenever
RJ Rawrr (3:02:52 PM): Naa, don't chase him
RJ Rawrr (3:03:04 PM): all you really need to di is stage on stage
FlameWaveK (3:03:05 PM): He only got one stocked and I got 2 stocked :<
RJ Rawrr (3:03:08 PM): and never spam anything
RJ Rawrr (3:03:19 PM): Just wait for him to do something
FlameWaveK (3:03:21 PM): Don't be readable and just DI well?
RJ Rawrr (3:03:22 PM): From this point
RJ Rawrr (3:03:35 PM): I want you to look how marth uses his options from the ledge
RJ Rawrr (3:03:43 PM): Each one of his options
RJ Rawrr (3:03:51 PM): has a different animation
RJ Rawrr (3:04:02 PM): You can litterly tell what he is going to do
RJ Rawrr (3:04:04 PM): and react to it
FlameWaveK (3:04:41 PM): backdrop... fair... DJ fair.... drop + ff UpB, DJ uair...
RJ Rawrr (3:04:55 PM): Also
FlameWaveK (3:04:56 PM): Stand-up, ledge attacks, ledgejump..
RJ Rawrr (3:05:00 PM): Stay in Fsmash range
RJ Rawrr (3:05:03 PM): thats key
FlameWaveK (3:05:06 PM): really?
RJ Rawrr (3:05:08 PM): Yes
RJ Rawrr (3:05:27 PM): Lucario's fsmash range is the perfect distance for the Mu when you are harassing him
FlameWaveK (3:05:28 PM): I found myself just having it getting fullhopped over
FlameWaveK (3:05:36 PM): wait
RJ Rawrr (3:05:41 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:05:42 PM): You mean only staying in the tipper range
RJ Rawrr (3:05:47 PM): Yepp =]
FlameWaveK (3:05:57 PM): starting to make sense..
FlameWaveK (3:06:05 PM): but doesn't our fair get beat out
FlameWaveK (3:06:09 PM): like almost every single time
FlameWaveK (3:06:09 PM): ?
RJ Rawrr (3:06:12 PM): Don't fair
RJ Rawrr (3:06:13 PM): Bair.
RJ Rawrr (3:06:22 PM): You will be amazed
RJ Rawrr (3:06:35 PM): how reactable marths ledge jump is
RJ Rawrr (3:06:51 PM): I actually have some more vids that i might upload later
RJ Rawrr (3:07:06 PM): and the most recent ones are me exploiting Pierces marth when he is recovering
RJ Rawrr (3:07:32 PM): Takes practice
RJ Rawrr (3:07:36 PM): but completely doable
RJ Rawrr (3:07:44 PM): Its learning how to train your eye to see how marth moves
RJ Rawrr (3:07:53 PM): marth has the advantage for sure
RJ Rawrr (3:08:02 PM): but marth is a character that if you look at closely
RJ Rawrr (3:08:06 PM): you can see what he is going to do
RJ Rawrr (3:08:29 PM): Dancing blade can be D'ed out of
RJ Rawrr (3:08:35 PM): as well
FlameWaveK (3:08:38 PM): Up and towards?
RJ Rawrr (3:08:41 PM): both
FlameWaveK (3:08:57 PM): I've seen champ get out of DB with sheik nair once.
RJ Rawrr (3:09:10 PM): Thats because they put pauses inbetween
RJ Rawrr (3:09:15 PM): its nto fast enough
RJ Rawrr (3:09:25 PM): if you get hit by Dblade
FlameWaveK (3:09:26 PM): So at perfect speed
RJ Rawrr (3:09:27 PM): its a combo
RJ Rawrr (3:09:31 PM): but
RJ Rawrr (3:09:36 PM): it can be Died out of
FlameWaveK (3:09:55 PM): So, Up and towards is the way?
RJ Rawrr (3:10:03 PM): Up and away form where he is facing you
RJ Rawrr (3:10:19 PM): so move out of the move
RJ Rawrr (3:10:30 PM): while holding diag. up
RJ Rawrr (3:10:43 PM): i show it in the video i showed you as well
FlameWaveK (3:14:29 PM): how does one deal with the fullhops? and when applied defensively instead of on the offensive? Bardull completely walled me out when he had the lead.
RJ Rawrr (3:14:46 PM): Ahh
FlameWaveK (3:14:58 PM): where mike just ***** me flat
RJ Rawrr (3:14:58 PM): for one AS on the rising swings works well
RJ Rawrr (3:15:04 PM): even if marths Fair beats it out
RJ Rawrr (3:15:11 PM): Also
RJ Rawrr (3:15:13 PM): Ftilt
FlameWaveK (3:15:23 PM): angled up I assume?
RJ Rawrr (3:15:27 PM): Yepp
RJ Rawrr (3:15:33 PM): It is the most important tool in this MU
FlameWaveK (3:15:39 PM): well
RJ Rawrr (3:15:45 PM): It is by far your safest move for close range in this MU
FlameWaveK (3:15:45 PM): THAT explains why I got beat so badly
RJ Rawrr (3:15:59 PM): Since it is safe on block
FlameWaveK (3:16:07 PM): ftilt is one of moves I was really reluctant to use in this match-up
RJ Rawrr (3:16:07 PM): You need to react to what marth is doing
RJ Rawrr (3:16:19 PM): yea
RJ Rawrr (3:16:28 PM): Ftilt is lucarios best move in my opinion
FlameWaveK (3:16:37 PM): Its really safe
RJ Rawrr (3:16:42 PM): Yepp
FlameWaveK (3:16:57 PM): really an underused move <<
FlameWaveK (3:17:04 PM): I use it VS heavies
RJ Rawrr (3:17:11 PM): I use it vs everyone
RJ Rawrr (3:17:13 PM): =D
FlameWaveK (3:17:24 PM): I should start too learn too I guess
RJ Rawrr (3:17:24 PM): I can't ignore the fact that I have a safe on hit move
RJ Rawrr (3:17:26 PM): and not use it
RJ Rawrr (3:17:41 PM): since Lucario's whole moveset isnt safe on hit
FlameWaveK (3:18:03 PM): yep
FlameWaveK (3:18:04 PM): but
FlameWaveK (3:18:18 PM): people still get ***** by strings every few times
RJ Rawrr (3:18:26 PM): Its going to happen
RJ Rawrr (3:18:33 PM): When Timbers said Bair was a bad move
FlameWaveK (3:18:34 PM): You're only human
RJ Rawrr (3:18:36 PM): he lied
RJ Rawrr (3:18:40 PM): here is why
RJ Rawrr (3:18:47 PM): Have you ever got hit by D3's Fsmash?
FlameWaveK (3:19:10 PM): Only when my shield got broke
RJ Rawrr (3:19:21 PM): Never when it wasn't?
FlameWaveK (3:19:25 PM): well
RJ Rawrr (3:19:29 PM): you can be honest
RJ Rawrr (3:19:30 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:19:37 PM): I wasn't lucario
RJ Rawrr (3:19:41 PM): Woudlnt matter
FlameWaveK (3:19:41 PM): but yes
FlameWaveK (3:19:44 PM): I've been hit by it
RJ Rawrr (3:19:45 PM): you have been hit by it
RJ Rawrr (3:19:53 PM): Do you kow what frame that comes out on?
FlameWaveK (3:20:03 PM): nope
RJ Rawrr (3:20:09 PM): its about frame 40
FlameWaveK (3:20:09 PM): if it makes a difference
RJ Rawrr (3:20:19 PM): If people can get hit by that
FlameWaveK (3:20:21 PM): I get hit by the shockwave more then the actual hammer
FlameWaveK (3:20:29 PM): thats over half a second.
RJ Rawrr (3:20:31 PM): still have been hit
RJ Rawrr (3:20:31 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:20:31 PM): isn't it?
RJ Rawrr (3:20:38 PM): pretty much
RJ Rawrr (3:20:54 PM): Standard fps is 29.97
RJ Rawrr (3:21:01 PM): in america anyway
FlameWaveK (3:21:11 PM): Nothings gonna be perfect.
RJ Rawrr (3:21:18 PM): BUt here is my claim
RJ Rawrr (3:21:25 PM): our bair comes out about frame what? 14 i think
FlameWaveK (3:21:33 PM): some where over 10
RJ Rawrr (3:21:34 PM): i havent looked since me and phil redid the list
RJ Rawrr (3:21:45 PM): if you can get hit by d3's fsmash
RJ Rawrr (3:21:50 PM): anyone can get hit by bair
FlameWaveK (3:21:52 PM): you can get hit by bair
RJ Rawrr (3:21:55 PM): Exactly
RJ Rawrr (3:22:05 PM): and its fast enough to use it on reaction
RJ Rawrr (3:22:09 PM): Bair is an amazing move
RJ Rawrr (3:22:14 PM): if people get hit by our own Fsmash
RJ Rawrr (3:22:20 PM): people can get hit by bair
FlameWaveK (3:22:25 PM): theres no reason they can't get hit by bair
RJ Rawrr (3:22:30 PM): Good
RJ Rawrr (3:22:46 PM): Now against marth, you want to hold down center stage
RJ Rawrr (3:23:02 PM): Move when you know he is going to swing at you
RJ Rawrr (3:23:06 PM): if he is zoning you
RJ Rawrr (3:23:08 PM): let him zone
FlameWaveK (3:23:24 PM): just be patient?
RJ Rawrr (3:23:29 PM): show **** at him if he want to do that
FlameWaveK (3:23:30 PM): and look for an opening
RJ Rawrr (3:23:30 PM): yepp
RJ Rawrr (3:23:36 PM): this match is all about patience
RJ Rawrr (3:23:39 PM): =]
FlameWaveK (3:23:41 PM): in the event
FlameWaveK (3:23:46 PM): that I don't have the lead
RJ Rawrr (3:23:55 PM): be patient anyway
FlameWaveK (3:24:07 PM): I'd see that work agaisnt mike
RJ Rawrr (3:24:19 PM): it doesn't mean camp him however
FlameWaveK (3:24:22 PM): bardull though... he would just stand there for 8 minutes
RJ Rawrr (3:24:22 PM): camping never works
RJ Rawrr (3:24:30 PM): oh no
RJ Rawrr (3:24:35 PM): like
RJ Rawrr (3:24:37 PM): if he standing there
RJ Rawrr (3:24:39 PM): thats an opening
FlameWaveK (3:24:53 PM): whenever theres no hitbox active
RJ Rawrr (3:24:54 PM): you can litterly walk to him and "make him" do something
FlameWaveK (3:25:11 PM): you have a safe opening... wow this is making more sense then I thought it would
RJ Rawrr (3:25:15 PM): I guess what i am trying to say here is
RJ Rawrr (3:25:19 PM): don't try to swing first
RJ Rawrr (3:25:31 PM): but rather react to you opponant swinging first
FlameWaveK (3:26:02 PM): Pretend its like a normal fighter and hit him on counterhit?
FlameWaveK (3:26:07 PM): in a sense at least
RJ Rawrr (3:26:10 PM): yepp
FlameWaveK (3:26:24 PM): in the event his fair connects with my shield
FlameWaveK (3:26:26 PM): Landed
FlameWaveK (3:26:30 PM): out of my fair range
FlameWaveK (3:26:31 PM): er
FlameWaveK (3:26:32 PM): grab
FlameWaveK (3:26:38 PM): stubby little arms <<
RJ Rawrr (3:26:39 PM): you have time to grab him before he can UpB
FlameWaveK (3:26:45 PM): what?
FlameWaveK (3:26:52 PM): Really?
RJ Rawrr (3:27:04 PM): Landing has 2 frames of lag
FlameWaveK (3:27:12 PM): that one time Ally got "lol denied" by Mike was just a fluke?
RJ Rawrr (3:27:21 PM): and swinging the sword while hitting your shield woudl mean he needs to be in teh air at first
RJ Rawrr (3:27:27 PM): between him going to the floor and landing
RJ Rawrr (3:27:29 PM): you have time
RJ Rawrr (3:27:31 PM): its small
RJ Rawrr (3:27:33 PM): but you have it
FlameWaveK (3:27:39 PM): just gotta learn I guess
FlameWaveK (3:27:41 PM): like you said
FlameWaveK (3:27:50 PM): its requires practice
RJ Rawrr (3:27:56 PM): Yepp
FlameWaveK (3:28:04 PM): oh yeah... last thing about marth
FlameWaveK (3:28:18 PM): So I don't feel like an idiot anymore when I get uaired out of my dair and airdodges
FlameWaveK (3:28:29 PM): how do I deal with being on top of marth :[
FlameWaveK (3:28:36 PM): its never been a problem
RJ Rawrr (3:28:37 PM): Lol
RJ Rawrr (3:28:40 PM): I like this question
FlameWaveK (3:28:49 PM): until mike and bardull were seeded agaisnt me more often
RJ Rawrr (3:28:52 PM): I want you to think for a second
RJ Rawrr (3:29:00 PM): When marth hits your with Uair
RJ Rawrr (3:29:04 PM): how did it happen
FlameWaveK (3:29:14 PM): because I daired and was in the landing lag
FlameWaveK (3:29:16 PM): or
FlameWaveK (3:29:21 PM): I airdodged while he did nothing
FlameWaveK (3:29:26 PM): and he just waited and uairs
RJ Rawrr (3:29:32 PM): You know what that is called
RJ Rawrr (3:29:44 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:29:44 PM): not sure
RJ Rawrr (3:29:48 PM): he is baiting you.
FlameWaveK (3:29:49 PM): of the termonlog
FlameWaveK (3:29:52 PM): -
FlameWaveK (3:29:52 PM): oh
FlameWaveK (3:29:58 PM): baiting...
RJ Rawrr (3:30:02 PM): What I am telling you to do to marth right now
RJ Rawrr (3:30:08 PM): is what they have been doing to you all along
RJ Rawrr (3:30:19 PM): being patient
RJ Rawrr (3:30:22 PM): reacting to what they do
RJ Rawrr (3:30:26 PM): all of it is called baiting
RJ Rawrr (3:30:31 PM): Baiting is:
RJ Rawrr (3:30:58 PM): Forcing your opponent to do one thing, and because of that react to it with something that you opponant can't stop
RJ Rawrr (3:31:03 PM): If you throw a move
RJ Rawrr (3:31:05 PM): your not safe
RJ Rawrr (3:31:10 PM): He is
RJ Rawrr (3:31:12 PM): baiting you
RJ Rawrr (3:31:15 PM): to throw that move
RJ Rawrr (3:31:17 PM): Meaning
RJ Rawrr (3:31:20 PM): your making it to obvious
RJ Rawrr (3:31:22 PM): what you are doing
RJ Rawrr (3:31:28 PM): and he sees it
RJ Rawrr (3:31:33 PM): so he is waiting for you to do it
RJ Rawrr (3:31:37 PM): block or make it miss
RJ Rawrr (3:31:39 PM): and then hit you fori t
FlameWaveK (3:32:30 PM): it all sounds like playing overly defensive, but its possible to do this while applying pressure, no?
FlameWaveK (3:32:40 PM): Its the only reason I can play olimar now.
RJ Rawrr (3:32:44 PM): They key is how to do it
RJ Rawrr (3:32:47 PM): while applying pressure
RJ Rawrr (3:33:22 PM): he intimidated you to throw something that 1) he can stop and 2) he can punish
RJ Rawrr (3:33:43 PM): If he is standing their waiting you for to come down
RJ Rawrr (3:33:46 PM): move away from him.
FlameWaveK (3:33:47 PM): intimidation... yeah...
RJ Rawrr (3:33:59 PM): if he comes up after you
FlameWaveK (3:34:02 PM): Its pretty intimidating when I've been faired to 86% offstage
RJ Rawrr (3:34:03 PM): then try hitting him
FlameWaveK (3:34:09 PM): and then daired out of my airdodge
FlameWaveK (3:34:11 PM): ;_:
FlameWaveK (3:34:32 PM): it happened, and I literally died a little on the inside
FlameWaveK (3:34:43 PM): haha, but I guess I just gotta practice.
FlameWaveK (3:34:47 PM): Thank You
FlameWaveK (3:34:51 PM): You've helped a lot
FlameWaveK (3:34:56 PM): made plenty of things make sense.
RJ Rawrr (3:35:07 PM): Np.
RJ Rawrr (3:35:12 PM): I will be uploading more vids later
RJ Rawrr (3:35:22 PM): so you can see what im talking about also in the future
FlameWaveK (3:35:32 PM): oh *pop*
FlameWaveK (3:35:35 PM): Thats right...
FlameWaveK (3:35:37 PM): Videos
RJ Rawrr (3:35:39 PM): Also, I will be making videos Titled: how to handel stopid moves
FlameWaveK (3:35:46 PM): I have like a few
RJ Rawrr (3:35:53 PM): stupid*
FlameWaveK (3:35:58 PM): please tell me you're doing turnips
FlameWaveK (3:36:00 PM): please.
RJ Rawrr (3:36:06 PM): lol?
RJ Rawrr (3:36:08 PM): Grab them
RJ Rawrr (3:36:08 PM): XD
RJ Rawrr (3:36:16 PM): Fair beats them out as well I believe
RJ Rawrr (3:36:29 PM): but that i don't remember by heart
RJ Rawrr (3:36:35 PM): and would have to retest it
FlameWaveK (3:36:52 PM): You'll... see what I mean
FlameWaveK (3:36:54 PM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p8ZFMJktFg&feature=channel
FlameWaveK (3:37:15 PM): this was very recent and the only set I could record
FlameWaveK (3:37:31 PM): I have little to no peach practice
FlameWaveK (3:37:34 PM): only other time
FlameWaveK (3:37:43 PM): was when praxis utterly destroyed me in a friendly
RJ Rawrr (3:37:52 PM): lol
RJ Rawrr (3:38:36 PM): Did you seriously get baired 3 times...?
RJ Rawrr (3:38:38 PM): LOL
FlameWaveK (3:38:46 PM): </3
FlameWaveK (3:38:50 PM): Yeah
FlameWaveK (3:38:59 PM): WC lucario, we're hella bad.
RJ Rawrr (3:39:55 PM): fishing for grab
RJ Rawrr (3:39:58 PM): tsk tsk tsk
RJ Rawrr (3:40:07 PM): didn't know lucario had a fishing pole
RJ Rawrr (3:40:16 PM): <3
FlameWaveK (3:40:27 PM): VS Snake and Olimar he does </3
FlameWaveK (3:40:34 PM): thats how I win them at least
FlameWaveK (3:40:40 PM): especially VS Olimar
RJ Rawrr (3:40:53 PM): well its one thing to grab them
RJ Rawrr (3:41:06 PM): its another thing to whif a grab 4 times in one spot
RJ Rawrr (3:41:07 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:41:13 PM): yeah pretty much
FlameWaveK (3:41:21 PM): this was a bad vid of me but
RJ Rawrr (3:41:23 PM): whaty ou did was
RJ Rawrr (3:41:26 PM): sit in one spot
FlameWaveK (3:41:29 PM): vids are the only way to see your mistakes
RJ Rawrr (3:41:29 PM): turh back and forth
RJ Rawrr (3:41:32 PM): and threw grab
RJ Rawrr (3:41:35 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:41:51 PM): It works when they're in the air and they have no jumps left serious :x
FlameWaveK (3:42:05 PM): its the problem I have with multijumpers... and floaters
FlameWaveK (3:42:37 PM): oh
FlameWaveK (3:42:42 PM): and if you have time
FlameWaveK (3:42:47 PM): do take a gander at Inspires vids
FlameWaveK (3:42:55 PM): those are the 1st matches he played offline
FlameWaveK (3:43:01 PM): and I'm planning to take him to more
FlameWaveK (3:43:14 PM): he has potential imo
RJ Rawrr (3:43:31 PM): ill try when i can
FlameWaveK (3:43:35 PM): well
RJ Rawrr (3:43:46 PM): I am about to head out soon
FlameWaveK (3:43:50 PM): haha wow
FlameWaveK (3:43:52 PM): what good timing
FlameWaveK (3:43:57 PM): same here
RJ Rawrr (3:44:00 PM): lol
RJ Rawrr (3:44:09 PM): Keep practicing xP
FlameWaveK (3:44:20 PM): nice talking to you, EC definetely is more technical.
FlameWaveK (3:44:30 PM): when talking to bardull
FlameWaveK (3:44:35 PM): this was his advice after the MM
FlameWaveK (3:45:03 PM): "uh.... you seem to have a problem after you get killed 1st, because your like "how am I going to kill him?" and um.. go for more grabs?"
FlameWaveK (3:45:13 PM): ,-, its worse when he teaches marth
RJ Rawrr (3:45:20 PM): ya, your fishing
RJ Rawrr (3:45:20 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:45:37 PM): fishing is a respected sport in world y'know </3
RJ Rawrr (3:45:50 PM): Not to mention that Lucario's grab isnt a good kill move
RJ Rawrr (3:45:51 PM): Ll
RJ Rawrr (3:45:52 PM): lol
FlameWaveK (3:46:15 PM): bair kills snake faster then our whole moveset when we did
FlameWaveK (3:46:16 PM): *die
FlameWaveK (3:46:19 PM): *bthrow
FlameWaveK (3:46:28 PM): did I just switch bair with bthrow
FlameWaveK (3:46:29 PM): ._.
RJ Rawrr (3:46:38 PM): Bthrow doesnt kill
RJ Rawrr (3:46:46 PM): Not if DI'ed properly
RJ Rawrr (3:46:56 PM): Fthrow kills, but only if late
RJ Rawrr (3:47:06 PM): since it is DI dependant also
FlameWaveK (3:47:06 PM): hm
FlameWaveK (3:47:12 PM): but its really fast
FlameWaveK (3:47:19 PM): so that helps
RJ Rawrr (3:47:23 PM): Yea, but it still doesnt kill early
RJ Rawrr (3:47:26 PM): LOL
FlameWaveK (3:47:32 PM): it does on castle
RJ Rawrr (3:47:34 PM): Idk, its just an EC thing i guess
RJ Rawrr (3:47:37 PM): I know what I would do
RJ Rawrr (3:47:40 PM): If i see you throw a grab
FlameWaveK (3:47:41 PM): I got HugS with it once <3
RJ Rawrr (3:47:43 PM): im holding up
FlameWaveK (3:47:44 PM): so funny
FlameWaveK (3:47:53 PM): well
FlameWaveK (3:47:56 PM): if you're holding up
FlameWaveK (3:47:57 PM): cool
FlameWaveK (3:48:08 PM): uthrow -> read the AD -> Uair
RJ Rawrr (3:48:18 PM): Uthrow has animation
RJ Rawrr (3:48:27 PM): you can stop holding the direction
RJ Rawrr (3:48:32 PM): before it actually comeso ut
RJ Rawrr (3:48:32 PM): LOL
FlameWaveK (3:48:40 PM): What I learned Today:
FlameWaveK (3:48:44 PM): Marth Match-up
FlameWaveK (3:48:49 PM): EC can react hella fast
RJ Rawrr (3:48:57 PM): Lol, you have to
FlameWaveK (3:49:05 PM): haha
FlameWaveK (3:49:06 PM): well later
FlameWaveK (3:49:13 PM): I'm getting yelled at ><
FlameWaveK (3:49:17 PM): to leave
RJ Rawrr (3:49:17 PM): lol iight
RJ Rawrr (3:49:19 PM): peace
FlameWaveK (3:49:36 PM): we gotta talk more, you're pretty chill and technical <3
​

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I'm starting these up again.

So, we need someone to interview who can break down the MU really well at a depthful level, get into the head of Marth v. Lucario play. Any ideas?

also, remind me not to EVER search for Marth pics again.

 

[D. Disciple]

Pierce, start with Pierce.

 

[phi1ny3]

That's what I was thinking.

Any ideas on what to ask?

 

[Justblaze647]

Inquire if its more practical to camp Marf with aerials and tilts and force palm, or if its better to stay on the offensive?

 

[culexus・wau]

After pierce.

Lee Martin.

or Trela

either one.

 

[iRJi]

I find it funny I don't come to mind. Lol. GG's people, Gg's.

 

[culexus・wau]

I forgot RJ


he was the one who helped me with MU in the 1st place..


I still have that txt file.




****it now I feel bad.

 

[hough123]

Ask him how he most often kills Lucario, and at what percent if he can remember. Also ask him how Lucarios that he's fought in the past have recovered successfully. You should also see what his favorite, and least favorite types of Lucario to play are, and why.

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head, may I post more later?

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, does NEO play Junebug often?

 

[phi1ny3]

Updated with RJ's convo w/ FlameWaveK.

Good read, he's told me this stuff before, and it's pretty good advice.

 

[Zucco]

Oh yeah, does NEO play Junebug often?

Junebug beats him with DK last time I checked.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've had some difficulty in that MU, it was a good read.

Thanks RJ.

 

[iRJi]

Wow, I remember this conversation. If you guys want, I can actually give WAY more detail on how to play against Marth. Just ask questions, and I can answer them =]

 

[junebug]

rare + mediocre advice from junebug (junebug reads the boards? whaaaa?...)

Junebug beats him with DK last time I checked.

i haven't played NEO's marth with DK since november. sova logic!

lemme attempt to contribute to the lucario boards lolz.

in my opinion, this is a real campy and hard matchup.

basically, the lucario will be shootin blue **** and using ftilt as RJ said, desperately trying to avoid marths sword. he should only capitalize when the marth is vulnerable (such as an aerial OOS when you power shield a fair). basically, this match up is very grounded for us. when we DO go to the air, we won't be doing much damage. any aerial approach will be swatted away by marth's fair, unless you somehow manage to beat him to the punch.

sometimes marth's will just run up and shield, waiting for us to do something. don't be impatient and attack his shield with an aerial. just stay patient and wait for him to make a move. if cornered on the edge near the edge by a marth, do not grab the ledge and wait it out. marth can cover most options from the ledge with ease, he's probably one of the best in the game at it. full hop away/try some b reversal shiz; idk, whatever can get you out of the situation. most marths will expect the roll and will punish very easily with side b. mix it up, and only roll when you know they won't be able to read it. like if you know they're about to jump and fair, a roll behind to utilt works wonders. you'll wanna stay comfortable in this matchup position wise.

also, attempt to read marth's jumps. after being hit, most marths will waste their jump in order to reposition themselves for a forward air. except NEO of course, NEO is 2 gudz. <3 if you read their jump and punish via a move with good knockback, then you'll set the marth up for an edgeguard. of course, this is only viable around middish percents. when the marth is at lowish percents, you could attempt to come under them and read a jump with a uair, but it usually isnt worth it since the marth will retaliate immeadietly. bair is the best option if you wanna edgeguard, uair is good if you wanna just punish. of course, uair is also a reasonably good killer in this matchup so you'll have to experiment to see what you like best.

did i do good?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So would it be best to assume Marth is going to be trying to bait Lucario to throw out something and punish more than anything?

What do we do when we have to approach, whether it be a stock lead or a high % lead?

 

[culexus・wau]

Wow, I remember this conversation. If you guys want, I can actually give WAY more detail on how to play against Marth. Just ask questions, and I can answer them =]

What is the mindset I go into this match with.

What do I do in a neutral position.

what moves can I zone marth with safely?

 

[HyperEnergy]

And what distance do you want to try to keep him at generally?

 

[D. Disciple]

Mindset in this match - Stay calm, don't over think your options.

Neutral Position - Stay there and react to his movement, once you see him take the air, mimic him and move away. So if he does a rising shfair, retreat with an empty hop then follow up after that.

Zone with retreating fairs into baby as, force him to jump.

Distance - Stay within our fsmash tipper distance.

 

[iRJi]

Mindset in this match - Stay calm, don't over think your options.

Neutral Position - Stay there and react to his movement, once you see him take the air, mimic him and move away. So if he does a rising shfair, retreat with an empty hop then follow up after that.

Zone with retreating fairs into baby as, force him to jump.

Distance - Stay within our fsmash tipper distance.

This sums it up.

 

[iDeo]

So would it be best to assume Marth is going to be trying to bait Lucario to throw out something and punish more than anything?

What do we do when we have to approach, whether it be a stock lead or a high % lead?

Well when i used to play Diddy Kong, I'd sometimes walk or run up tap-shield to get a powershield and counter attack. Sometimes it was effective and other times it wasn't. When you look at Lucario's perspective, you could take the same a approach, however don't hold the shield otherwise you'll get shield pressured.

Also like others said poke around with retreating fairs and shoot aura spheres and when you see your chance to get in close, go for it.

 

[tehdr4g0n]

Well when i used to play Diddy Kong, I'd sometimes walk or run up tap-shield to get a powershield and counter attack. Sometimes it was effective and other times it wasn't. When you look at Lucario's perspective, you could take the same a approach, however don't hold the shield otherwise you'll get shield pressured.

Also like others said poke around with retreating fairs and shoot aura spheres and when you see your chance to get in close, go for it.

oh...well that might work...its one thing i haven't thought about. Generally, i can approach, throw a jab, get cancelled, dodge around the counterattack, and you have Marth's back facing you...where you can do whatever. Another rather successful ploy is running up, then jumping right before you get to him to hit him with a dair (especially useful if you have a high % lead on him). I don't know if these techniques work because they're good, or just because the Marth's i tend to play aren't really as good as i am x.x Let me know, ya?

 

[iDeo]

oh...well that might work...its one thing i haven't thought about. Generally, i can approach, throw a jab, get cancelled, dodge around the counterattack, and you have Marth's back facing you...where you can do whatever. Another rather successful ploy is running up, then jumping right before you get to him to hit him with a dair (especially useful if you have a high % lead on him). I don't know if these techniques work because they're good, or just because the Marth's i tend to play aren't really as good as i am x.x Let me know, ya?

More than likely that's the case. But running up dairing isn't very effective for the fact u can't retreat when the dair is done, and ur vulnerable to counters. if u also wanna play on Marth a bit, u can jab--> roll behind---> jab 2x--->then grab. But don't do it to often otherwise they'll expect it more so just poke and retreat. And remember tap shield when u predict Marth's fair, it allows u to immediately fair right after u powershield it, and that's ur ticket in.

Remember a character is only as good as it's user.

 

[tehdr4g0n]

ok..cheers for that. Just one thing tho...what about when you start something and the other guy spot dodges? Is there a good lure for that I could use, or is it just keep practicing until you get used to it? Not as much a problem vs Marth as when vs Diddy, but still irritating. Any suggestions?

 

[iDeo]

ok..cheers for that. Just one thing tho...what about when you start something and the other guy spot dodges? Is there a good lure for that I could use, or is it just keep practicing until you get used to it? Not as much a problem vs Marth as when vs Diddy, but still irritating. Any suggestions?

I kinda figured a way around spot dodging and it's simply this. Sometimes just walk up or run up to an opponent and do nothing. That way you can get a feel of their movements. Like for example, when my opponents run at me i immediately walk up and grab because they only have 2 options shield (most likely the case) or dash attack. However only do this like at least 2x per match otherwise ur opponent will catch on. So make it a surprise counter.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but if you read ur opponent right ur almost guaranteed a counter grab or movement to get some dmg or take a stock off.

There is no real solution to spot dodging but hopefully this will help u resolve spot dodgers a little bit.

 

[phi1ny3]

We need moar questions >: