Love for the Phantom

[GameAngel64]

(Now also available in video format - with BONUS FOOTAGE: http://youtu.be/vdL5UWQFyQA)

We have a thread discussing why Din's Fire sucks so much, so I figured we ought to have a thread discussing the utility (as opposed to the sucktitude) of Zelda's replacement for Sheik: the Phantom. It's a brand new move for Zelda in a brand new Smash game so theoretically it should have significant impact on Zelda's metagame. I know a lot of people don't like to use this move but I think a lot of that has to do with habit (i.e. it was never incorporated into the Melee/Brawl gameplay style since the move did not exist) and frustration with its reflectable "projectile" properties and missed potential (i.e. the ability to be stored). That being said, in what ways does the Phantom enhance Zelda's gameplay, or at least give her options in some various situations? Here are some of the ways I like to use it:

The usual way:

Hitting with the second hit when they try to jump over:

As a wall against some recoveries:

(I have endlessly done this to Little Mac; there is nothing he can do about it, and counter especially ruins his recovery.)

As a close-range weak attack to set up for a better attack:

Returning to stage:

Taking a KO Punch from Little Mac:

As a wall against rushing characters (especially Sonic):

(On that note, it is also good as a "sacrificial lamb" for rushing characters, like a rushing Marth that decides to attack and destroy the Phantom is left open for a good Farore's Wind.)

For hiding a second, "better" attack:

(Could you even see I was charging F-Smash there?)

Interrupting an aerial attack:

There are already way too many gifs here, but we should all already know that the Phantom can hit those oblivious ones who overstay their welcome hanging on the edge, as well as oblivious Diddy Kongs and others with an edge "cling." I have actually found a lot of ways of incorporating the Phantom into my playstyle, and although it upsets me as often as the rest of Zelda's situational/punishing moveset, I am glad it is there instead of accidentally turning into Sheik. Also I am sure I have only here presented a tip of the iceberg. What other USEFUL ways has everyone found of using this move?

EDIT: While edgeguarding with the Phantom some folks will learn to recover close to the stage in order to avoid Phantom and/or Din's Fire. This is also an excellent setup to reliably meteor smash many characters. I mentioned this in the social thread, but forgot to mention it here.

 

[Kyle B]

I have used this move to knock my friends little mac backwards, very fun to have a mid range threat, often forces a roll (I gets my grabs).

 

[GameAngel64]

I have used this move to knock my friends little mac backwards, very fun to have a mid range threat, often forces a roll (I gets my grabs).

This move was made to gimp Little Mac's recovery. Although I guess most things are.

 

[Kyle B]

Little Macs recovery is even made to gimp Little Macs recovery.

Also do you happen to know a way to cancel Phantom it seems like B-reversal window is huge....I often switch sides accidentally?

 

[BJN39]

I love this thread, I love you. <3333333

I'm actually really liking this move's secrets, It just occured to me that multiple of her attacks can reach to the other side of a lowest-charge phantom. Ftilt seems especially good there. It interrupting Shulk's Aerial is mind-blowing IMO.

I'm actually addicted to using it while recovering, I just like the way it looks LOL. It does have some use there considering it doesn't have special fall, paired with her long recovery.

Stuffing weaker recoveries is classic. I think I (Or we) should make a list or chart of all MUs where this could be useful. We ARE Zelda, after all, we need to abuse every trick we find!

 

[Kyle B]

for starters we know any move that hits for recovery will wiff on Phantom

 

[Alacion]

Think this move could be important in the Sheik matchup. Sheiks always abuse landings and will needle you just before you land so you can't shield or do anything. Getting that phantom out to block needles seems nice but I haven't tested this yet.

 

[GameAngel64]

I edited the top post with something obvious that I mentioned in the social thread but forgot to mention here, specifically that people who try to avoid a Phantom edgeguard by recovering close to the stage often leave themselves open to an easy meteor smash attack.

I like the idea of rating this move's effectiveness in different match ups. This will take a lot of testing to determine accurately, however! Especially since some things mostly just work on clueless players regardless of the character they're using.

 

[Rickster]

I think you pretty much got all the general uses right there. My favorite one is hiding behind it for a surprise attack.

Little Macs recovery is even made to gimp Little Macs recovery.

Also do you happen to know a way to cancel Phantom it seems like B-reversal window is huge....I often switch sides accidentally?

I don't think you can cancel it. I do that too sometimes, but it usually works out for me since it throws the opponent off.

I think the B-Reversed Phantom could be useful simply because of the extra mobility it gives us. And a non "reverse momentum" one is good for retreating.

 

[GameAngel64]

My favorite one is hiding behind it for a surprise attack.

I love that too. Being obscured by the Phantom is just so visually confusing that it allows you to pull off attacks that would otherwise be anticipated, shielded, and punished. Pull that stunt too much in one match though and it will probably stop working, but it is good to have the option when you're ready for that KO hit.

 

[Meek Moths]

another use: phantom acts as a kind of "wall" in a way that when opponent tried to run past it, they dont simply go through, they get slowed down a little. most people dont know this and think they just run past so they keep going and use dash attack too early which is then punished ^.^

 

[RyokoYaksa]

After using the Phantom alternates I can't stand the default Phantom Slash anymore. :/

 

[CommanderPepper]

I'm gonna use that trick against Sonic and try to interrupt Falcon's recovery.
Also the Phantom is useful against Diddy's banana. Diddy can't throw the banana as it will be stopped or even nullified by the Phantom. He has to wait or jump and throw the banana over the Phantom.
Too bad the move isn't storeable, it would be so good.

 

[ZombieBran]

I prefer Breaker too but yes as I mentioned, I have grown to tolerate default Phantom. It being storable would be so significant a buff that I think Sakurai was afraid of the implications and left it as is.

It has lots of tricks up its armored sleeve. There are so many variables with it, I imagine the vast majority of non-Zelda mains will never catch on to most of these uses.

 

[UkeNicky]

I imagine the vast majority of non-Zelda mains will never catch on to most of these uses.

That has to be one of the most satisfying things about the move: the fact that almost all non-Zelda players are usually surprised by the move and furthermore, never seem to catch on very well. Even though it cannot be stored. . It really is a nice touch! Certainly better than Din's firework in terms of utility.

And this thread is so helpful! I never thought to hide behind it and use another attack *,,*

 

[Arwon]

The blocking and slight influence on attack spacing seem pretty useful, I just have trouble working o0ut how to exploit that quickl;y enough before they can get out.

 

[UkeNicky]

Hmm, question for all of you:
Does Phantom actually block or does it simply eat the damage you'd otherwise take?

 

[Zylach]

I had been thinking about all the different ways to use phantom since I seem to have hit a brick wall in terms of learning how to use Zelda more effectively. I liked the move but couldn't make it do as much as I wanted. A lot of these tricks are really helpful and I thought I'd share some ways I've found to use it or thought to use it anyway. I've found that charging it while I'm jumping forwards or backwards is helpful for approaching and retreating. A lot of people that play rushdown characters like to run at me while I jump backwards only to get hit by my phantom I've been charging. I've been wondering how else to use the no-charge phantom since it has some of the longest range Zelda has while coming out relatively quickly. I've been getting outspaced by a lot of characters recently, especially Marths/Lucinas and I've had no way to counter them. I've been wondering if that no-charge phantom is our way of answering their great spacing games. Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to test this recently. I'm also curious whether our phantom momentum reverse could allow for mindgames.

 

[Meek Moths]

Hmm, question for all of you:
Does Phantom actually block or does it simply eat the damage you'd otherwise take?

just eats damage and can take up to 13% damage before breaking

if a move were to hit both you and the phantom, you will get hurt while the phantom as well. but it does block projectiles and nullifies them. except thoron i think and maybe some others

 

[UkeNicky]

just eats damage and can take up to 13% damage before breaking

if a move were to hit both you and the phantom, you will get hurt while the phantom as well. but it does block projectiles and nullifies them. except thoron i think and maybe some others

Ahh alright then, thank you for your input!

 

[GameAngel64]

[Using Phantom to space attacks against Marcina..]

I use the short-ranged retreating aerial Phantom sometimes too, but I would probably not do this in the air against a nearby Marth/Lucina, I don't think, because the Phantom dies really quickly against any of their hits and they are fast so they can just keep going after you. I mean there are probably some situations where this would work or help you, but it seems risky to me if they are quite close. I don't mind throwing a Phantom so much to them on the ground because at least you can block with shield instead of hoping for the useless air dodge to save you. If I have a little distance and they are rushing me I might throw a mid-charged Phantom out there because usually they just run into him and destroy him, giving me time to teleport into them while they are doing that or otherwise follow up with some other kind of attack.

 

[evmaxy54]

Phantom is love

Phantom is life

 

[UkeNicky]

I found a unique use for Phantom, it's just a little scary.
Firstly this is a variation of using it to get back to the stage safely, so that's why it's scary since you'll be charging it off stage and trying to FW back to the ledge after so you don't die.
Anyways, I just found that if you use the full charge and aim it under the ledge it will hit up through the stage with the second hit when it swings upward. So it still covers the ledge for you, but it can't be hit since it's protected by the stage, and you are free to make your recovery :]

 

[Meek Moths]

I found a unique use for Phantom, it's just a little scary.
Firstly this is a variation of using it to get back to the stage safely, so that's why it's scary since you'll be charging it off stage and trying to FW back to the ledge after so you don't die.
Anyways, I just found that if you use the full charge and aim it under the ledge it will hit up through the stage with the second hit when it swings upward. So it still covers the ledge for you, but it can't be hit since it's protected by the stage, and you are free to make your recovery :]

that's interesting! i gues imma try that tonight if im not so topsy because christmas booze C: and if i succed imma piost gif just because i can

 

[Kyle B]

I found a unique use for Phantom, it's just a little scary.
Firstly this is a variation of using it to get back to the stage safely, so that's why it's scary since you'll be charging it off stage and trying to FW back to the ledge after so you don't die.
Anyways, I just found that if you use the full charge and aim it under the ledge it will hit up through the stage with the second hit when it swings upward. So it still covers the ledge for you, but it can't be hit since it's protected by the stage, and you are free to make your recovery :]

Ill try that tomorrow on my brother .
He will probably say:
"Wow Zelda is op!"
to which I shall reply:

To be honest I was just looking for a place to put this XD

 

[UkeNicky]

That gif is perfection lol.
But yeah, I think Phantom is definitely a viable way of getting back to the edge safely, I guess it depends on the match up though.
The upward swing part is great for so many things, it makes full charge worth it in my opinion.

 

[GameAngel64]

I have just put together a quick video version of this same material, in case anyone prefers that to gifs. I also included a few extra clips and tips:

http://youtu.be/vdL5UWQFyQA

 

[UkeNicky]

I have just put together a quick video version of this same material, in case anyone prefers that to gifs. I also included a few extra clips and tips:

http://youtu.be/vdL5UWQFyQA

Awesome video! I'm sure it'll definitely help players utilize the move better.
Let's hope that non-Zelda players don't watch it though and figure out how to get around it lol xP

 

[Kyle B]

Something I have been doing lately against DHD and Link's is using Phantom to break projectiles and block the next one, can usually get dins off while there in their endlag, useful that the slash will cancel a projectile and then tank another one, very good for characters who throw a lot of things, in fact it makes DHD manageable for me...he can be crazy....

Also is it just me or does the custom phantom push people back when used? I think the regular Phantom just whiffs instead(albeit the custom still whifs in areas).

Then again I think I overuse the Phantom Dins combo on computers

 

[ZombieBran]

It doesn't work on humans as well with Din's (because Din's in general does not work on humans near as well) but it might force them to approach.

If they're crazy enough to spam projectiles with punishable lag then you can block with Phantom and FW. Or just FW really. Nayru's is actually like my last resort to deal with most projectiles.

 

[Rion]

Dear @ GameAngel64 ,

Please be my gif partner in crime, because these gifs are absolutely fantabulous.

Sincerely,
Rion

 

[Kyle B]

It doesn't work on humans as well with Din's (because Din's in general does not work on humans near as well) but it might force them to approach.

If they're crazy enough to spam projectiles with punishable lag then you can block with Phantom and FW. Or just FW really. Nayru's is actually like my last resort to deal with most projectiles.

Actually I just did some for glory matches got into a sudden death....and I think the Link was generally depressed when I sent out Phantom to block arrow... so I showed him what was behind door number Phantom...*BOOM* but I acknowledge without lag and all that might not be possible with smart people, which sucks, need to have flare as a default, or a better blaze :/.

 

[Uncertain Title]

Short hop away from opponent --> pivot down-B has helped me a couple of times ^ ^

 

[Meek Moths]

i still dont get why did they give zelda, a character with already many limitation, a move which is really limited overall? (in range, lag and recovery, cant be stored ;-; )

 

[Alias]

this is what it could have been like if it was stockable

but with Zelda releasing it instead of Villager of course. no doubt a game changer.




my only success with the phantom is using it like a barrier when edgeguarding so it blocks some characters' recovery move from reaching the ledge. most effective against Link

 

[Zylach]

Granted, the kill potential and damage of the phantom wouldn't be that ridiculous because Villager's pocket increases both of these values to crazy levels but I agree that a store-able phantom would be infinitely more useful and would easily put Zelda in mid tier at lowest. It would essentially give her a mid range, Thoron-esque attack which would be especially useful for Zelda whose projectile game exists but isn't nearly what it should be in order to classify it as an actual projectile game.

In all honesty, I've been using the phantom breaker custom instead of the default one and am much happier with it. If that was store-able, then she'd be a really serious threat.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Has anyone else had a fully-charged Phantom whiff at point blank on some characters? Like they got pushed back, but then the sword didn't connect <_<

 

[Zylach]

Has anyone else had a fully-charged Phantom whiff at point blank on some characters? Like they got pushed back, but then the sword didn't connect <_<]

Phantom has a blind spot right in front of Zelda that extends quite a distance from her. You have to space it properly in order for a fully charged one or even a half-charged one to hit, otherwise it'll just go through people. Granted, the small push the opponent gets while not being hit can be situationally useful sometimes like gimping recoveries but it's tough to pull off and rarely useful compared to other options. The phantom striker custom is the only version of phantom that doesn't have that blind spot because it doesn't travel forward. The blind spot on phantom breaker isn't quite as restricting as default but still exists.

 

[E.Lopez]

I never realized the potential of her Phantom, this thread has opened so many possibilities for me.

 

[ariwl1]

I think the most benefit I get from human opponents is they don't realize what Phantom is actually good for. So it often ends up being an effective meat shield for projectiles while I snipe with Din's (just blasted an FG Fox that way) or, more amusingly, they take the time to actually destroy the Phantom while ignoring me for a moment much like you would against Rosie and Luma even though they're nowhere near comparable. Granted, with the extended cool down time with the patch this becomes less useful, but it the general inexperience of it often seems my biggest asset.