Looking over characters who were buffed/nerfed early.

[GHNeko]

Let's form a list of characters who were buffed/nerfed early to a decent time ago (around 4.1 official maybe?)

and go over the list of their changes and see if we can do something better for them overall by reworking nerfs and buffs.

As I see it, all the early changes (4.1 official and prior) are acting as a sort of base for newer changes and recent advances, meaning we use the new stuff to work around the old stuff.

Kinda like putting clean clothing and cosmetics on a dirty girl.

Rather than adding more on top. We should go back and relook over what we've done and see if we can do something better for the character now.

I know we have to do MK.

Link, Samus, and Peach might be worth looking at as well.

 

[The Cape]

Thoughts:
Ike, Marth, Fox, Lucas, Ganon U throws: IASA frame for jump only after the toss, allows for more options of a laggy throw.

Samus:
U throw have better placement, F throw or B throw more KO power? And Bombs explode on impact + samus can move faster

Squirtle:
Less KBG on uair

Zamus: Give dair an autocancel frame right after the hitbox ends?

Falcon:
Ability to turn around the Falcon punch til about 2 frames before the hitbox

Link:
+dmg on spin attack

Bowser:
More aerial control on fortress

Peach:
Parasol opening and closing is a bit faster

Olimar:
Fix pikmin ghosting bug

ICers:
Fix infinite removal and Nana

Ivy:
D smash?

DDD:
Dair has an autocancel frame right after the hitbox ends instead of the speed up
Dair and uair have less smash DIability for the hits (instead of the uair fix)
F throw has more KB (around Ness B throw KO power)
Minion's tripping creates a hitbox that does decent damage and heavy sheild damage (about 1/2)
-Couple that with the F smash 10x size sourspot that makes them trip and this can give some great area control
F tilt does about 1/4 of the sheild in damage


Thoughts?

 

[goodoldganon]

I think you missed the point of this thread Cape, but I could be too.

I think the point of this thread would be something like:

I believe the nerfs we gave to MK never really addressed the core issues with what made him too good in Brawl+ and many of our nerfs have had unforseen buffs. For example the d-smash now allows him to set up gimps easier.

That's the point.

I'd like to reevaluate some of Ganondorf's changes. For starters, though I 'd like to make it so that Ganondorf does not have two slow, powerful moves (up-tilt and Warlock Punch) I believe our current fix to Up-tilt feels awkward and is too good. I also don't like his new gravity settings as much as his old ones, but maybe I just haven't been aquainted to the new ones. Overall I liked Ganondorf best before this Nightly (assuming the previous Nightly had techable side-b). If need be I can elaborate, but overall I'm not a huge fan of his new changes.

Overall though, I think many of the character's feel prefect in the new Back Room testing set and the final Falcon polish by Magus is great.

 

[The Cape]

What about the neutral B fix that was worked on by myself, Count Kaiser, and Shell?

Also, I really think we could consider the animation change nair.

 

[Shell]

U-tilt is definitely awkward, but I don't think OP. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Three or more people have said it made them start maining Ganon, and many more have said it revitalized their interest in him and/or the project. If there's a way to make it work I'd like to try, but I don't want to force it.

Oddly enough, I haven't heard much of anything about the gravity feedback. I think ZeonStar wasn't ready for it at first, but said he liked it after some playing.

 

[goodoldganon]

Right now his up-tilt is pretty much 100% safe once it's out and unless you are really bad you aren't using it with people right in front of you. Ganon's jab is probably one of the better get off me moves in the game but he can also shield right out of an up-tilt. I think it's the cooler candidate for changing to a useful move, but the first go around was just too good.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont think what we did with Ganon's utilt was the right thing to do. It looks so...unnatural and the reward/risk is out of wack imo.

 

[Revven]

I dont think what we did with Ganon's utilt was the right thing to do. It looks so...unnatural and the reward/risk is out of wack imo.

I agree, I hate the change to it, it didn't need it at all. >_>;

 

[The Cape]

For Metaknight.

If we were to take him back to his normal standings, this is my opinions on him:

- D throw at 120 angle is good and should be kept
- Tornado starting slower and having slower winddown should be kept
- Removal of upB invincibility
- Keep fair range change
- Keep tornado grav

- D smash should have 2x hitlag
- Removal of extra fall special 2 landing lag
- Side B needs less priority
- Removal of one glide
- Need removal of ledge grabs past 7 in a row (or whatever)
- Remove IDC
- Remove upB KB changes and replace it with Magus's idea:
[17:24] <Magus> i think we should stick 2x hitlag, raise the angle from 30->35, and leave the current kb power on aerial shuttle loop
- Remove D tilt speed change and remove the tripping from it. Then do one of these:
- Remove the IASA frame (its one frame before the end) or lower the sheild stun or increase the hitlag to twice what it currently is.
- More BKB on F throw?

Thats my opinions on MK and I feel that makes him alot more fair now.

 

[Veril]

does MK's side-b really need fixing? I agree with everything else Cape said though.

 

[The Cape]

The priority on side B is actually quite overpowering. The move can be used for recovery and can actually be used as an approach as its mobility can allow it to dodge projectiles. If you dig it into the ground it ends with no lag and can be linked into a sidestep or D smash to punish most counter attacks.

The ability to at least hit this move from the top would be a nice change that could be implemented on it. I play a Metaknight player pretty consistantly back home and I have found this move to be more of a headache than tornado at times.

 

[GHNeko]

Side B though is similar to the tornado. The move doesn't afford alot of shield stun so it's easy to punish if you know not to let go of your shield. :/

The mobility of the move doesnt mean as much as you make it out to look like either.

The move is good, I agree. I love the move personally, but anyone who shields it and is competent enough to know when to let go, punishes me.

 

[The Cape]

Sonic and GW D throw speed ups.

Make em IASA frames instead. I like the uses of IASAs better than speed ups. Works better overall.


Sonic spin jump attacks less smash DI?


Peach Umbrella
Landing open 2x
Open and close 1.2x
0C00011A 3F999999
0C00011B 3F999999
0C00011C 40000000

New Ivy Physics:
1F66C880