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Logic Questions

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Dre89

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I'll just use this thread to ask a series of logic absed questions.

Question 1.
A and B are on a sea-saw.

X: Why is A in the air?

Y: Because B is on the ground.

X: Well then why is B on the ground?

Y: Because A is in the air.


Do you think Y's reasoning is logical? I'm sure everyone here understands the mechanics of how a sea-saw works.

I argue that his reasoning is flawed, but I want to see what everyone here thinks first.
 

abhishekh

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Ugh, I hardly remember anything I learned about logic when I did philosophy for a semester :/

This is a terrible guess from whatever limited knowledge I have, so here goes.

if A is in the air then B is on the ground

so P -> Q

Q

therefore P


So, if A is in the air, then B is on the ground

B is on the ground, therefore A is in the air.


Is this affirming the consequent?

It kind of sounds like circular reasoning as well but I'm not really sure. I'll just go with that.
 
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I think the main issue with this arises from knowing that there's a reasonable non-circular explanation (A is in the air because the counterweight of B has forced the see-saw to the ground on that point, therefore forcing the lever upwards by the fulcrum; B is on the ground because the force he exerts on the lever is higher than that of A at the moment), but the circular explanation is just much easier and everyone understands it. Y's reasoning is technically circular, I believe.
 

1048576

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Oh god it's the Christianity argument. God exists because the bible says so and the bible is credible because god says so.

3 + 2 = 6 because 6 - 3 = 2.

Circular logic is bad. Lern2siencenubz
 

BOB SAGET!

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Hmmmm, well A is in the air because B "has forced the see-saw to the ground on that point, therefore forcing the lever upwards by the fulcrum; B is on the ground because the force he exerts on the lever is higher than that of A at the moment." -BPC

He's right, however when Y says B is on the ground because A is in the air, my interpretation is Y believes that A in the air has caused B to be on the ground. But B is on the ground because it exerted more force than A.

I dunno if that makes any sense or not.........
 

Bookworm

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Oh god it's the Christianity argument. God exists because the bible says so and the bible is credible because god says so.

3 + 2 = 6 because 6 - 3 = 2.

Circular logic is bad. Lern2siencenubz
Actually, that's a purely fidiestic argument.

Catholicism rests upon Scripture and Tradition, Tradition coming before Scrpiture. So belief in the Catholic God was around before the Bible was even collaborated.

As for the OP, I think the reasoning is flawed. A and B cannot both be the cause of the person's motion. Now one may say "but what if they had it perfectly balanced, then both moved at the same time?", but this is wrong. It's wrong because in that scenario, both A and B caused themselves to move, but what Y is saying that A caused B, and B caused A.

There are only two possible occurences. Either one caused the other, meaning the latter did not cause the former, or they both caused themselves (explained in the scenario I alluded to previously). However, Y is saying that they caused each other at the same time, which is impossible, thus Y's reasoning is flawed.

 

jaswa

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Let P = 'B' is on the ground
Let Q = 'A' is in the air

P->Q (P implies Q) is True if P and Q are both true, both false, or P is false and Q is true.
The only way to obtain a false output is if P is true and Q is false.

So; if 'B' is on the ground is true there exists a circumstance where P->Q isn't true, therefore you can't always say that 'A' is in the air just because 'B' is on the ground.
 

Nicholas1024

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@104etc
Are you trying to start a flame war here? If you want to attack Christianity, take it to a new topic, but don't just insult other people's beliefs with no evidence.

@OP
Well, Y's argument rests on an unstated assumption. The assumption is this: "A seesaw will always have one person on the air and one person on the ground." What Y's whole argument says is that "A in the air" = "B on the ground". That, in and of itself, is indeed logical (although completely useless to X).
 

Dre89

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Nic what Y is actually arguing is that A and B are simultaneously causing the other's position on the see saw.

Whether that claim is logical is the real question.
 

fragbait

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I'll just use this thread to ask a series of logic absed questions.

Question 1.
A and B are on a sea-saw.

X: Why is A in the air?

Y: Because B is on the ground.

X: Well then why is B on the ground?

Y: Because A is in the air.


Do you think Y's reasoning is logical? I'm sure everyone here understands the mechanics of how a sea-saw works.

I argue that his reasoning is flawed, but I want to see what everyone here thinks first.
Y's reasoning is solid at first. However, just because A is in the air, doesn't necessarily mean B is on the ground. A See Saw has a period between extremes where both people will be in the air. Furthermore, the only extreme that can be forced on a seesaw is the Air/Ground one, at the peaks of each.
 

jaswa

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Y's reasoning is solid at first. However, just because A is in the air, doesn't necessarily mean B is on the ground. A See Saw has a period between extremes where both people will be in the air. Furthermore, the only extreme that can be forced on a seesaw is the Air/Ground one, at the peaks of each.
You're trying to analyse this from a physics standpoint, however this is a 'logic question' as the title suggests - so we must deduce the answer with logic.

Read about logical connectives the 'if-then' statement, then reread my above response.

(links are there - not sure how visible they turn out?)
 

jaswa

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Oh god it's the Christianity argument. God exists because the bible says so and the bible is credible because god says so.
Well this has nothing to do with the OP, and the bible's credibility lies in the authenticity of its history and passing down - as well as the linking together within itself. As Nic said, you're clearly just trying to start something unnecessarily...
 

Dre89

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Well this has nothing to do with the OP, and the bible's credibility lies in the authenticity of its history and passing down - as well as the linking together within itself. As Nic said, you're clearly just trying to start something unnecessarily...
Don't double post, just use the edit function next time. People seem to get really annoyed if you double post for some reason.

But yeah he doesn't understand anything about Christianity, like most of the atheists here. Some of the people here still think God is supposed to be some guy in the clouds with a beard lol.
 

jaswa

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Don't double post, just use the edit function next time. People seem to get really annoyed if you double post for some reason.

But yeah he doesn't understand anything about Christianity, like most of the atheists here. Some of the people here still think God is supposed to be some guy in the clouds with a beard lol.
Heh sorry, will do that in the future - can't really edit them into one and leave a blank post now...

Wait, God doesn't have a beard? According to the bible I'm made in God's image and vaguely have some facial hair! (I read the thread with the philosophical raptor)
 

blazedaces

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Welcome one and all to Logic 101. Today we will be discussing Modus Ponens, Modus Tollens, affirming the consequent, denying the antecedent, and begging the question (also sometimes called circular reasoning, though they are not entirely the same thing).

The form of Modus Ponens is as follows:

1. If P, then Q
2. P
-----------------
3. Therefore Q

The form of Modus Tollens is as follows:

1. If P, then Q
2. NOT Q
-----------------
3. Therefore NOT P

Affirming the consequent is an INVALID utilization of logic and its form is as follows:

1. If P, then Q
2. Q
-----------------
3. Therefore P

Another similar fallacy is called Denying the Antecedent, whose form is as follows:

1. If P, then Q
2. NOT P
-----------------
3. Therefore NOT Q

And really the most important one for this discussion is the fallacy known as begging the question, whose form is as follows:

"Any form of argument in which the conclusion occurs as one of the premises, or a chain of arguments in which the final conclusion is a premise of one of the earlier arguments in the chain." (Not an exact form because there isn't one cookie cutter form, but either way this definition I think explains it well) -SOURCE

Just wanted to add that to the discussion. But let's look at Dre's scenario again, and try to break it down to basics:
Question 1.
A and B are on a sea-saw.

X: Why is A in the air?

Y: Because B is on the ground.

X: Well then why is B on the ground?

Y: Because A is in the air.
First, "A and B are on a sea-saw." Let's assume for arguments sake, that what Dre meant is that "A and B are on the same see-saw" (I know I'm being nitpicky, but logic is always nitpicky) and we'll call that premise P.

Next, we'll replace the former X ("Why is A in the air?") with the conclusion it's implying, "A is in the air", and call that conclusion Con1.

Now, instead of "Because B is on the ground" we'll write the premise implied: "B is on the ground" and call that premise Q.

Onto the next Y statement, we'll replace "Well then why is B on the ground?" with "B is on the ground", which we will call Con2.

Finally, we will replace "Because A is in the air" with the premise "A is in the air" and call it premise R.

So, to recap, here is the argument written out in reduced form:

First the definitions:

P: A and B are on a sea-saw
Q: B is on the ground
R: A is in the air
Con1: A is in the air
Con2: B is on the ground

I will also assume that our sea-saw isn't physical, and follows the following rule:

1. When A is on the ground, B is in the air, and vice versa.

Finally, let's write out the form of Dre's argument:

1. P
2. Q
-------
3. Therefore Con1
4. R.
-------
5, Therefore Con2

When written like this it actually looks alright, but what happens when we replace Q and R with their appropriate conclusions? Let's take a look:


1. P
2. Con2
-------
3. Therefore Con1
4. Con1
-------
5, Therefore Con2

Is it clear now, that we are in fact using a "chain of arguments in which the final conclusion is a premise of one of the earlier arguments in the chain"?

That is why this argument is logically fallacious.

Now, in order to keep the fun going, I'm adding another logical challenge, albeit one that is in my opinion easier to determine than Dre's. I must give credit to my philosophy professor, Dr. Jacques N. Catudal for this, but here goes:

1. If there are some free actions, we are responsible for some of our actions.
2. We are not responsible for some of our actions.
Therefore,
3. If we are not responsible for some of our actions, it's not the case that there are some free actions.

Is the argument above valid or invalid?

-blazed
 

fragbait

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You're trying to analyse this from a physics standpoint, however this is a 'logic question' as the title suggests - so we must deduce the answer with logic.

Read about logical connectives the 'if-then' statement, then reread my above response.

(links are there - not sure how visible they turn out?)
There's no physics here, it's just my logic, that's all. It's critical thinking.
 

jaswa

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There's no physics here, it's just my logic, that's all. It's critical thinking.
My point was more about you analysing how a see-saw functions and deriving your answer from there, as opposed to analysing the logic behind the statements they were making.
 
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