Little Mac is NOT OP! Here's why.

[XxBHunterxX]

Well in punch out Mac was a pretty fast puncher. He plays pretty much the same as in Punch Out. he even gets hit by the same types of things(Hit a block, get punished for it by a grab). The only thing that could've made him feel more like he did in Punch Out would be if he had a stamina bar that got depleted each time he whiffed or hit a block. which...actually may have been an awesome addition. 419

I was thinking the same thing, but I wouldn't want to make it too complex but it's a fun idea none the less

 

[warriorman222]

I was thinking the same thing, but I wouldn't want to make it too complex but it's a fun idea none the less

A fun way to make an already struggling character the worst in the series. Punishing him for being blocked is the last thing we need for a chaarcter that will likely be in the middle of low tier. He has predictable moves that are easy to block, and now jab is useless because if it gets blocked you're screwed.

 

[KingTeo]

He'd be far from the worst? lolno. With that mechanic of yours, he would succeed Ganon for having no advantageous or even matchups, he would be the worst in the series and likely get his own tier for himself at the bottom just for that. You are encouraging shield-grab spam, pls no. Mac players can't just be shelded and have to run away every few seconds then lose a stock because you don't like him as is. I deal with enough kirbys and grapplers every day, I'm considering dropping Mac because of the extreme prejudice against him, the spam and hate i deal with on GFAQs for being a notorious Mac main, and the fact that one slipup costs you the game. Uphill battles don't exist, you just lose if you die first. There needs to be some reward in that system.

Like you start with 10/20, but dodging increases them by 2, and maxing out increases your ground game, air game, recovery (Like alot), and weight for 10 seconds, while burning out has the effect of 5 second shield break that can't be mashed out of and gives you super armor(no, not heavy armor) so they just rack damage on you. Still a horrible, nonbeneficial system, but not nearly as bad as yours.

And yes he needs to be faster if we're making him weaker. At least his aerials. If underwhelming power is gonna be his new weakness, speed is going to be his new strength, and his air game will have to be sped up and powered drastically. Like make every aerial stronger in knockback but weaker in damage, allow them to be slightly less endlaggy, or linger longer. Or be actually goddamm useful!

Every special mechanic in the game has a trade-off, not just pure benefit(except KO Punch). Monado has drawbacks and benefits, while the latter coming of on top. Luma is just all good absorbing hits and possesing the best projectile in th e game(Shooting star bit is basically Falco laser 4* better), the only drawbacks being if he dies, you have 2-3 useless specials. Pikmin have no drawback because Pikmin pluck, and recovery is a non issue, while i'm falling i ditch some of my Pikmin. Oil Panic's nerf is a double edged sword, allowing a max or forty-something% max damage, but allowing crap alike PIkawatch and Megwatch to exist.

K.O Punch is all benefit, i get that. That doesn't mean we nerf an already struggling character by taking away everything good about him, giving him more bad mechanics, and leaving him to rot. We rebealance him by lowering the armor on his smashes, and inproving his recovery, making his f-tilt and dash attack less spammy, give all his air attacks uses. K.O Punch only raises by giving hits, but you can no longer lose it form tumble, rather from an extra 50% damage taken(and being warned too), as well as thirding the damage requirement to 100%. 300% is just absurd, nobody does that much and lives. Now not only is Little Mac a better, the complaints cease, and he maintains a much better ground game then air game. This is assuming none of the above happens.


Like Thor said, the hate about Mac is because his benefits make noob tactics better like smash and tilt spam, drawbacks are about stuff noobs suck at like recovery, follow-ups and aerials. So he caters to noobs, and therefore deserves to be worse than Brawl Ganon? No. Just no. Being noob-friendly is usually a bad thing, as your character is stale and pretty bad in a competetie scene. MAc sucks. He is mid->midlow tier, everybody knows how to deal with him, he is hard countered by Shiek(Same way ROB went down for being hard countered by Metagame-Nerf, going form top tier to low tier). He isn't going to get better. And your nerfs aren't going to help.

tl;dr your mechanic is horrible, he needs an overhaul or fix, not nerfs. Little Mac isn't that great, and with some help could become a better but less unbalanced character.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on, well, everything. I think dealing with that horrible abuse as you make it out to seem on GFAQs hypnotized you into think he's worse than he actually is. Little Mac isn't lower-mid tier. Even with his weaknesses he almost has the quickest everything in the game. He recovers out of everything pretty fast and he's pretty strong. He's high tier or upper-middle at the lowest. You have to be a little misguided if you honestly believe that he's a struggling character.

Improving his air game would also be a horrible decision for the character. It would make him better but that would completely negate one his most defining features. If we're talking about keeping true to his origins and the only things we could add to keep him faithful to his games are objective nerfs you have to pick one.

417

 

[XxBHunterxX]

He'd be far from the worst? lolno. With that mechanic of yours, he would succeed Ganon for having no advantageous or even matchups, he would be the worst in the series and likely get his own tier for himself at the bottom just for that. You are encouraging shield-grab spam, pls no. Mac players can't just be shelded and have to run away every few seconds then lose a stock because you don't like him as is. I deal with enough kirbys and grapplers every day, I'm considering dropping Mac because of the extreme prejudice against him, the spam and hate i deal with on GFAQs for being a notorious Mac main, and the fact that one slipup costs you the game. Uphill battles don't exist, you just lose if you die first. There needs to be some reward in that system.

Like you start with 10/20, but dodging increases them by 2, and maxing out increases your ground game, air game, recovery (Like alot), and weight for 10 seconds, while burning out has the effect of 5 second shield break that can't be mashed out of and gives you super armor(no, not heavy armor) so they just rack damage on you. Still a horrible, nonbeneficial system, but not nearly as bad as yours.

And yes he needs to be faster if we're making him weaker. At least his aerials. If underwhelming power is gonna be his new weakness, speed is going to be his new strength, and his air game will have to be sped up and powered drastically. Like make every aerial stronger in knockback but weaker in damage, allow them to be slightly less endlaggy, or linger longer. Or be actually goddamm useful!

Every special mechanic in the game has a trade-off, not just pure benefit(except KO Punch). Monado has drawbacks and benefits, while the latter coming of on top. Luma is just all good absorbing hits and possesing the best projectile in th e game(Shooting star bit is basically Falco laser 4* better), the only drawbacks being if he dies, you have 2-3 useless specials. Pikmin have no drawback because Pikmin pluck, and recovery is a non issue, while i'm falling i ditch some of my Pikmin. Oil Panic's nerf is a double edged sword, allowing a max or forty-something% max damage, but allowing crap alike PIkawatch and Megwatch to exist.

K.O Punch is all benefit, i get that. That doesn't mean we nerf an already struggling character by taking away everything good about him, giving him more bad mechanics, and leaving him to rot. We rebealance him by lowering the armor on his smashes, and inproving his recovery, making his f-tilt and dash attack less spammy, give all his air attacks uses. K.O Punch only raises by giving hits, but you can no longer lose it form tumble, rather from an extra 50% damage taken(and being warned too), as well as thirding the damage requirement to 100%. 300% is just absurd, nobody does that much and lives. Now not only is Little Mac a better, the complaints cease, and he maintains a much better ground game then air game. This is assuming none of the above happens.


Like Thor said, the hate about Mac is because his benefits make noob tactics better like smash and tilt spam, drawbacks are about stuff noobs suck at like recovery, follow-ups and aerials. So he caters to noobs, and therefore deserves to be worse than Brawl Ganon? No. Just no. Being noob-friendly is usually a bad thing, as your character is stale and pretty bad in a competetie scene. MAc sucks. He is mid->midlow tier, everybody knows how to deal with him, he is hard countered by Shiek(Same way ROB went down for being hard countered by Metagame-Nerf, going form top tier to low tier). He isn't going to get better. And your nerfs aren't going to help.

tl;dr your mechanic is horrible, he needs an overhaul or fix, not nerfs. Little Mac isn't that great, and with some help could become a better but less unbalanced character.

I'm not trying to say only nerf him, I feel that taking out op mechanics like super armor and lag less smash attacks work well while also increasing his recovery

 

[Cyre]

Let me say this
What makes Mac great is that he's the ultimate extreme. High risk, high reward.

I really disagree with this line. He is extremely low risk due to having a good counter and super armor on a bunch of his moves. His up b is no slouch either. Lil mac can be a counter to a huge amount of the cast if played right. Put LM in the hands of someone who can read properly and you are probably going to have a really hard time unless you can play your character perfectly. A single mistake around the mac and you get punished hard. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't his roll have barely any lag.

He is extremely low risk/ high reward. He isn't gamebreaking but in my opinion he's strong. He's got all the right tools like someone said earlier and can be a counter pick to a huge amount of the cast. I feel like if I go to a tournament, I need to have a counterpick just for mac. I really don't want to do that, ugh.

(I almost forgot to mention that insta KO attack. Never have I before seen such a move implemented into a fighting game.)

 

[shinhed-echi]

If I get grabbed, I'm as good as dead, how is that OP material?
Sure he makes up for it with being extremely powerful on the ground, but once I'm on the air, grabbers will make my life a living hell. Mac's aerial momentum is slower than the slowest running character. So there's no getting away from a grab in mid-air.

Side+B you say? The travel distance while on air, and ending lag of this move, makes me a sitting duck.

Air-Dodge? This is a lottery, really. If I'm read, I get Faired across the stage, or grabbed upon landing.

--

Mac IS all about extremes.
On one match I can be dominating, but end up losing if my opponent gets his act together.
On another match I can be losing badly, but I could easily turn it around in 4-5 punches (or a single KO punch).

I think he's extremely well balanced. He's just super easy to pick up and play, and heck, I think he's easy to master as well. But once others catch up with your playstyle, you're in for some serious adrenaline rush.
I think this is what makes Little Mac so much fan to play as. :D At no point do I feel like I'm really winning or losing, because one wrong move, and the whole thing turns around.

 

[Dsull]

I don't think he's op, but I think the KO punch is a little ridiculous.

If it at least only charged on HIS attacks, and diminished when you attacked him, it wouldnt be as bad.

No idea how many times ive died to a mac i was combo'ing to hell and back that suddenly got a KO punch in the middle of it. Freakin pisses me off that someone who doesnt even need such a mechanic gets a mechanic that kills at ~40%, ignores shields, and is up multiple times in a fight.
If they wanted to add special moves, they should have added charge counter type stuff. Perform a special move depending on how many counters you saved up, none of which are gamebreaking but definitely better than usual.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Instead of a KO Punch, I would have given him a Star Punch mechanic.

This would be similar to G&W Down+B, except it fills up on ANYTHING.
The drawback is that it'd be a counter (like the one he currently has) and in order to fill up, the counter would need to HIT the opponent.

Then, by pressing UP+B you perform the trademark Star Punch, and depending on how many Stars you filled up (1-3), the strength AND distance of the Star Punch is increased drastically.

-
I admit I love the KO punch, but I would have rather have the technique that Little Mac is actually famous for.

 

[Champ Gold]

I really disagree with this line. He is extremely low risk due to having a good counter and super armor on a bunch of his moves. His up b is no slouch either. Lil mac can be a counter to a huge amount of the cast if played right. Put LM in the hands of someone who can read properly and you are probably going to have a really hard time unless you can play your character perfectly. A single mistake around the mac and you get punished hard. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't his roll have barely any lag.

He is extremely low risk/ high reward. He isn't gamebreaking but in my opinion he's strong. He's got all the right tools like someone said earlier and can be a counter pick to a huge amount of the cast. I feel like if I go to a tournament, I need to have a counterpick just for mac. I really don't want to do that, ugh.

(I almost forgot to mention that insta KO attack. Never have I before seen such a move implemented into a fighting game.)

I don't think so since low risk/high reward always means you can throw out anything unsafe and stupid and you can get something easily out of it by just playing braindead and you rarely get punished for it. IMO, that's actually moreso a Bowser since he's mobile powerhouse, has super armor AND a better air game/recovery than Mac.

Mac has so many exploits and weaknesses that almost anyone can beat them even with a decent Mac player and that's moreso the player than the character. Remember what I said, he's lightas ZSS, Sheik and Robin but doesn't have their air game and recovery options, his side-a has super armor when you stupidly try to attack him in that form instead of playing his game and counter his moves and while every move is powerful, they are still punishable, from his charged neutral b, how when he has his meter up to where you can telegraph the punch and then his smash attacks can only do so much since the super armor is only for his side smash Attack

Then there's Mac's Side-B Suicide AKA the reason why he's high risk, high reward. You do something incredibly crazy, you're gonna get punished but if it succeeds, it's gonna help you.

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

Can't get through that darn super armor? Grab. Hate that counter? Grab. Its difficult to kill little mac off the ledge because of his counter? Then play mind games! Jump at him like you're going to attack him when he's off the ledge. He will probably use his counter and if he does that, dont attack. Now because of his counter, he's no longer in enough distance to make it back to the platform.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I don't think so since low risk/high reward always means you can throw out anything unsafe and stupid and you can get something easily out of it by just playing braindead and you rarely get punished for it. IMO, that's actually moreso a Bowser since he's mobile powerhouse, has super armor AND a better air game/recovery than Mac.

Mac has so many exploits and weaknesses that almost anyone can beat them even with a decent Mac player and that's moreso the player than the character. Remember what I said, he's lightas ZSS, Sheik and Robin but doesn't have their air game and recovery options, his side-a has super armor when you stupidly try to attack him in that form instead of playing his game and counter his moves and while every move is powerful, they are still punishable, from his charged neutral b, how when he has his meter up to where you can telegraph the punch and then his smash attacks can only do so much since the super armor is only for his side smash Attack

Then there's Mac's Side-B Suicide AKA the reason why he's high risk, high reward. You do something incredibly crazy, you're gonna get punished but if it succeeds, it's gonna help you.

How does his side b make him high risk/high reward? That's a move that's only used for recovery purposes. You compared him to shiek and ZSS but it doesn't matter that he doesn't have their air game because his ground game is twice as good as theirs, also his smash attacks aren't that punishable because I've had plenty of times where he throw out a side smash and a down smash and miss then I would go for a grab, the moment I come out if my shield I catch a swift f-tilt or a complete jab combo. His neutral b is useless because it's never going to hit anyone unless it's either in a free for all, or it's the K'O punch.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Can't get through that darn super armor? Grab. Hate that counter? Grab. Its difficult to kill little mac off the ledge because of his counter? Then play mind games! Jump at him like you're going to attack him when he's off the ledge. He will probably use his counter and if he does that, dont attack. Now because of his counter, he's no longer in enough distance to make it back to the platform.

Great where can I purchase these nifty products?

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

Great where can I purchase these nifty products?

Lol thats the unintentional theme i got from my comment too.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think he is OP. The best character in the game on the ground but the worst in the air. Why does that sound fishy?

Well, where are you for 80% of the match. On the ground. Do you start the match in the air? They are called "aerial attacks" for a reason, you have to be in the air to use them, it isn't a basic attack when you're in the air. If you go up into the air, you come back down onto the ground. The platform is the base of all stages ever. Being in the air is something useful. Have you ever herd of a character that is the best in the air and worst on the ground?

The ground is where you are for the most of the match, all characters have ground moves and aerial moves that can be used to some extent. Dr. Mario has a spike but a bad recovery to get back on the stage, but he can go off and on. He isn't OP on the ground, but he isn't UP in the air, he is just a better character on the ground, how it should be. Same with Sheik, she isn't the best on the ground, but she is really good in the air. Is she OP in the air and UP on the ground? No, she needs to get in the air somehow.

This does make sense, even though I was just rambling on about stuff before I thought about it, but II do know LM is OP.

 

[warriorman222]

I think he is OP. The best character in the game on the ground but the worst in the air. Why does that sound fishy?

Well, where are you for 80% of the match. On the ground. Do you start the match in the air? They are called "aerial attacks" for a reason, you have to be in the air to use them, it isn't a basic attack when you're in the air. If you go up into the air, you come back down onto the ground. The platform is the base of all stages ever. Being in the air is something useful. Have you ever herd of a character that is the best in the air and worst on the ground?

The ground is where you are for the most of the match, all characters have ground moves and aerial moves that can be used to some extent. Dr. Mario has a spike but a bad recovery to get back on the stage, but he can go off and on. He isn't OP on the ground, but he isn't UP in the air, he is just a better character on the ground, how it should be. Same with Sheik, she isn't the best on the ground, but she is really good in the air. Is she OP in the air and UP on the ground? No, she needs to get in the air somehow.

This does make sense, even though I was just rambling on about stuff before I thought about it, but II do know LM is OP.

You said NO reasons as to why he's OP. "Oh because he's on the ground a lot auto-OPfies him" Is literally your whole logic. And i'm sorry if this is rude, but that is some of the worst logic I've seen ever, and i have a GFAQs account.

Let me put it this way, here's a way to show Mac's OPness(which doesn't exist):
+Extremely Fast Dash
+Very Fast Attacks
+ Extremely strong attacks
+Main strength cancels out main drawback
+Armor on Smashes
+Ridiculous Smashes
- No combo or followup ability
-no edgeguard or air game
-no vertical or horizontal recovery.

Yeah Yeah yeah,seems like his strengths overpower his weaknesses? No. My chart there is biased, the minuses are grouped together each, and the pluses are very specific. If i'm going to be general or specific, I should be fair on both sides. Yet I have not seen a single Mac detractor who has either provided relevant evidence or been not very biased. People are crying for nerfs, but not what nerfs really. The people being specific with nerfs demand only things that will make Mac unplayable:

Extremely slow and weak smashes with no armor.
0.9 multiplier counter with no dash
Make the 10th lightest fighter lighter!
30% dmg drop on all moves.
Stamina System

Ridiculous crap that will serve to let Mac rot in garbage tier for eternity. So please i'm not even going to make any real counter-arguments until you get actual reasons.

 

[a Link to the Forums]

You guys have to remember that Mac's entire game plan is centred around the ground. For that to work the stage has to favour ground play over aerial play. I'm sure you know where I'm going with this by now. Mac is completely put at a disadvantage on stages where platforms or ones that just favour aerial combat and mobility are very prominent. Just look at how he becomes on Prism Tower compared to FD. With For Glory only using FD of course he is put at an advantage and of course there will be players saying this character is OP or whatnot. It's not the character that's broke, it's the system. If Battlefield were playable stage in For Glory then Mac's winnings would have gone down significantly.

My point is Mac is highly dependant on stage the stage. It's sort of like Diddy in Brawl or Marth in Melee (I haven't played Melee so if I'm wrong just say so) but much less polarising where FD put them at an advantage because it helps control ground through banannas/perform chains with ease. If FD were the only stage in those games then they'd probably be OP because it favours their style of play and that would the same for Mac in this iteration of Smash. But that isn't the case, there are stages that counter his style of play and when Mac is in a disadvantageous stage his viability dramatically decreases. Because of this, I find it hard to believe that he will be OP at high level play. He's just too risky.

Edit: Though if they do nerf him I think the most suitable way to do it is with the Super Punch metre. It's unfaithful to how it works in the games where it fills ONLY if Mac deals damage but goes down if you get hit. I think that's a better than what it is now for balancing purposes and staying true to the games.

 

[Quisciens]

He doesn't even need to be in the hands of a good player. He can literally just use his smashes over and over again, with their super armor and little ending lag. I didn't personally believe Mac was OP until I saw a Mac player win countless times by simply using his smashes over and over again. By shielding them, your shield is almost broken, and you're not close enough to grab. I feel like the super armor should only be on his up smash, nothing more, nothing less. The addition of super armor on his forward and down smashes is what tips the scale.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

You said NO reasons as to why he's OP. "Oh because he's on the ground a lot auto-OPfies him" Is literally your whole logic. And i'm sorry if this is rude, but that is some of the worst logic I've seen ever, and i have a GFAQs account.

Let me put it this way, here's a way to show Mac's OPness(which doesn't exist):
+Extremely Fast Dash
+Very Fast Attacks
+ Extremely strong attacks
+Main strength cancels out main drawback
+Armor on Smashes
+Ridiculous Smashes
- No combo or followup ability
-no edgeguard or air game
-no vertical or horizontal recovery.

Yeah Yeah yeah,seems like his strengths overpower his weaknesses? No. My chart there is biased, the minuses are grouped together each, and the pluses are very specific. If i'm going to be general or specific, I should be fair on both sides. Yet I have not seen a single Mac detractor who has either provided relevant evidence or been not very biased. People are crying for nerfs, but not what nerfs really. The people being specific with nerfs demand only things that will make Mac unplayable:

Extremely slow and weak smashes with no armor.
0.9 multiplier counter with no dash
Make the 10th lightest fighter lighter!
30% dmg drop on all moves.
Stamina System

Ridiculous crap that will serve to let Mac rot in garbage tier for eternity. So please i'm not even going to make any real counter-arguments until you get actual reasons.

That one reason, that he is OP on the ground makes up for his weakness in the air AKA he is OP either way, I thought was self explanatory. That's why I said it, and didnt explain it. So I will, because you need it.

Little Mac, I don't use him often, but here is what I know (nothing technical like pivots and stuff).

PROS:
+Fast dodge
+Fast dash
+Powerful attacks with a far knock back
+OK grabs
+Can wait and bait in the middle of the stage
+Powerful side tilt
+Super amour on some attacks
+Amazing rapid jab
+Best counter in the game


CONS:
-Easily punished
-Horrible aerials
-Easily comboed

All of the cons can be dealt with. Punished/comboed is the user's fault, wrong move or being read. Aerials are avoided by simply controlling the middle of the stage and not getting baited. If you're kicked off the stage, you're fault.

Being OP on the ground but UP in the air, like I said before, makes him still OP. I agree that once the meta develops he might not be OP with a nerf/people learning how to counter him. Right now he is OP.

 

[smashbroskilla]

There should be counter picking stages and the ability to choose stages as well as the ability to change stock count in for Glory. FD stages do lean in little mac's favor. It doesn't bother me much though. It's not like there's a true ranking systemm. I still play jigglypuff in for glory all the time.

 

[Elegant]

That one reason, that he is OP on the ground makes up for his weakness in the air AKA he is OP either way, I thought was self explanatory. That's why I said it, and didnt explain it. So I will, because you need it.

Little Mac, I don't use him often, but here is what I know (nothing technical like pivots and stuff).

PROS:
+Fast dodge
+Fast dash
+Powerful attacks with a far knock back
+OK grabs
+Can wait and bait in the middle of the stage
+Powerful side tilt
+Super amour on some attacks
+Amazing rapid jab
+Best counter in the game


CONS:
-Easily punished
-Horrible aerials
-Easily comboed

All of the cons can be dealt with. Punished/comboed is the user's fault, wrong move or being read. Aerials are avoided by simply controlling the middle of the stage and not getting baited. If you're kicked off the stage, you're fault.

Being OP on the ground but UP in the air, like I said before, makes him still OP. I agree that once the meta develops he might not be OP with a nerf/people learning how to counter him. Right now he is OP.

Yeahhhhhno.

How can all his cons be dealt with?

-Easily punished
If you think you have a combo but you get caught because of a powershield/an over priority move then get comboed, that I don't really see how that can be dealt with besides changing your approach for next time. Oh look, you're down a stock because you got bopped in the air.

-Easily comboed
In a game where many true combos don't exist, if you can be juggled and combo'd horribly then you're probably not too good.

"Being OP on the ground (Lets say #1 for example) and UP in the air (Lets say bottom 5 for example), this doesn't make you OP. This doesn't make you the Metaknight of Brawl as the scene progressed because of no hard counter, or the Fox/Falco of Melee because of speed/combo/damage. It makes you have a glaring weakness.

To say a character is OP means that all of their options will be better than the majority of the cast, and has almost no bad matchups.

I suggest you read this article.
http://mynintendonews.com/2014/11/1...in-smash-bros-nintendo-3ds-characters-online/

He is NOT OP right now, stop saying he is. If you're mad because you can't play against him then that's your fault.

 

[a Link to the Forums]

That one reason, that he is OP on the ground makes up for his weakness in the air AKA he is OP either way, I thought was self explanatory. That's why I said it, and didnt explain it. So I will, because you need it.

Little Mac, I don't use him often, but here is what I know (nothing technical like pivots and stuff).

PROS:
+Fast dodge
+Fast dash
+Powerful attacks with a far knock back
+OK grabs
+Can wait and bait in the middle of the stage
+Powerful side tilt
+Super amour on some attacks
+Amazing rapid jab
+Best counter in the game


CONS:
-Easily punished
-Horrible aerials
-Easily comboed

All of the cons can be dealt with. Punished/comboed is the user's fault, wrong move or being read. Aerials are avoided by simply controlling the middle of the stage and not getting baited. If you're kicked off the stage, you're fault.

Being OP on the ground but UP in the air, like I said before, makes him still OP. I agree that once the meta develops he might not be OP with a nerf/people learning how to counter him. Right now he is OP.

Except, for those pros to actually work he needs a stage that encourages ground play such as FD. In For Glory, yes, he is OP but in actual high level play in a stage that isn't totally centred around the ground saying "Mac is OP" just doesn't work anymore.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Yeahhhhhno.

How can all his cons be dealt with?

-Easily punished
If you think you have a combo but you get caught because of a powershield/an over priority move then get comboed, that I don't really see how that can be dealt with besides changing your approach for next time. Oh look, you're down a stock because you got bopped in the air.

-Easily comboed
In a game where many true combos don't exist, if you can be juggled and combo'd horribly then you're probably not too good.

"Being OP on the ground (Lets say #1 for example) and UP in the air (Lets say bottom 5 for example), this doesn't make you OP. This doesn't make you the Metaknight of Brawl as the scene progressed because of no hard counter, or the Fox/Falco of Melee because of speed/combo/damage. It makes you have a glaring weakness.

To say a character is OP means that all of their options will be better than the majority of the cast, and has almost no bad matchups.

I suggest you read this article.
(not enough posts)

He is NOT OP right now, stop saying he is. If you're mad because you can't play against him then that's your fault.

Good points, but I'll try to counter them.

For punishability, it is not anyone's fault except for yours. Thats why you don't go for laggy moves if you aren't gonna hit them, like his neutral smash (or whatever the B is called). It is a good move, but so much lag/cooldown that it isn't worth using, you'll get punished. If you use it in the wrong times, your fault. Use it well, you won't get punished. Don't do the same combos and dodges, they will read you. Your fault. If you miss an attack and they get a grab, your fault. Don't dodge in time? Your fault. The more competitive you play, the more you learn to dodge these. Miss a counter? Punished. Everyone makes mistakes, but the less you miss the less you get punished.

For combos, all juggles/aerial comboes shouldn't work against a good LM. Use counter. Dodge, its a very quick dodge which can be used a lot. He can be comboed, yes, but it isn't easy. Like I said before, if you don't control the stage and you don't get baited to the edge, you will do better at avoiding being comboed.

And for the last point, being #1 on the ground but bottom #5 in the air does make you OP, but not like MK in Brawl or Fox in melee. Nintendo did a great job with making everyone almost equal. There has to be a best, and that one is Little Mac. You are on the ground a lot, and if you don't get baited near an edge and you are good, being put in the air not even a problem.

By the way, Little Mac has such a bad win/loss ratio because nobody is good at him. He is the character for new players, easy to use and effective. Most people abandon Little Mac because it's complicated to learn how to use him like a baws. For the people who did (and I've faced them), it really shows how good he is. I have beat 15/20 Little Macs, but the 5 that beat me were so good compared the rest. Its that they have skill + the fact that he is OP.

I will come to a compromise, though. I would never complain about a Little Mac if they removed his KO Punch or his super armor or his knockback or his power. Any one of those removed, not all of them, if one of them was removed, and they maybe added some aerial, I would think he is fair. All of them together minus the aerial calls for someone more OP then the rest.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Except, for those pros to actually work he needs a stage that encourages ground play such as FD. In For Glory, yes, he is OP but in actual high level play in a stage that isn't totally centred around the ground saying "Mac is OP" just doesn't work anymore.

Thats true, but if they remove some OP factors off him and give him an aerial I think that would be fair/better.

 

[Elegant]

Good points, but I'll try to counter them.

For punishability, it is not anyone's fault except for yours. Thats why you don't go for laggy moves if you aren't gonna hit them, like his neutral smash (or whatever the B is called). It is a good move, but so much lag/cooldown that it isn't worth using, you'll get punished. If you use it in the wrong times, your fault. Use it well, you won't get punished. Don't do the same combos and dodges, they will read you. Your fault. If you miss an attack and they get a grab, your fault. Don't dodge in time? Your fault. The more competitive you play, the more you learn to dodge these. Miss a counter? Punished. Everyone makes mistakes, but the less you miss the less you get punished.

For combos, all juggles/aerial comboes shouldn't work against a good LM. Use counter. Dodge, its a very quick dodge which can be used a lot. He can be comboed, yes, but it isn't easy. Like I said before, if you don't control the stage and you don't get baited to the edge, you will do better at avoiding being comboed.

And for the last point, being #1 on the ground but bottom #5 in the air does make you OP, but not like MK in Brawl or Fox in melee. Nintendo did a great job with making everyone almost equal. There has to be a best, and that one is Little Mac. You are on the ground a lot, and if you don't get baited near an edge and you are good, being put in the air not even a problem.

By the way, Little Mac has such a bad win/loss ratio because nobody is good at him. He is the character for new players, easy to use and effective. Most people abandon Little Mac because it's complicated to learn how to use him like a baws. For the people who did (and I've faced them), it really shows how good he is. I have beat 15/20 Little Macs, but the 5 that beat me were so good compared the rest. Its that they have skill + the fact that he is OP.

I will come to a compromise, though. I would never complain about a Little Mac if they removed his KO Punch or his super armor or his knockback or his power. Any one of those removed, not all of them, if one of them was removed, and they maybe added some aerial, I would think he is fair. All of them together minus the aerial calls for someone more OP then the rest.

It takes ONE hit for him to get in the air and then be juggled. Have you looked at Frame data? I doubt it because you're a new poster / only have flair for Sonic/Sheik but if I'm wrong its whatever, just helps my argument more if you're new to the competitive scene.

"That's why you don't go for laggy moves if you aren't gonna hit them"
-EVERYTHING has lag in the game, some more than others. You still missed my point. "If you think you have a combo but you get caught because of a powershield/an over priority move then get comboed, that I don't really see how that can be dealt with besides changing your approach for next time. Oh look, you're down a stock because you got bopped in the air."

Let's use the example of Marth for fun. Marth has a pretty good aerial game, and an okay ground game. However, his ground game compliments his aerial game because of sour/sweet spot hits as well as popping (for aerial followups). Marth can F-air camp and force approaches, and can use F-air as a way to get in to bait an attack by FF F-air into drift back and follow with punish afterwards.

Let's use a campy character now, such as Duck Hunt/Fox or w/e you want. Automatically, you are forced to approach because of projectiles. If you miss your approach, yes, it is your fault, BUT what if it was due to thge other player playing well? You can't blame everything on yourself or you won't understand what is going wrong, same as blaming on "OP things" and other players.

"The less you miss the less you get punished"
-The same goes both ways. Lool. The reason that LM isn't OP is because one hit that gets you in the air is near fatal. If you want to argue this point more give me reasons why this isn't true. He has terrible recovery.


"He can be combo'd yes, but it isn't easy"
-Are you serious? The reason he sucks so much is ecause hes I believe the 10th lightest character in the game, anything that pops him up at a low percent he can't DI out of well because it pops him in a perfect place to get gimped/punished.


"Like I said before, if you don't control the stage and you don't get baited to the edge, you will do better at avoiding being comboed."
I already went over this with campy matchups


"And for the last point, being #1 on the ground but bottom #5 in the air does make you OP"
-No it doesn't, you obviously need help with reading comprehension.

"To say a character is OP means that all of their options will be better than the majority of the cast, and has almost no bad matchups."


"He is the character for new players, easy to use and effective."
-If he is easy to use and effective, that means that his win rate should be higher due to the fract of people "maining" him because they think he is strong, then losing because of his air game. Obviously win rate doesn't mean everything, but part of the win rate is true. He is NOT OP.

 

[warriorman222]

That one reason, that he is OP on the ground makes up for his weakness in the air AKA he is OP either way, I thought was self explanatory. That's why I said it, and didnt explain it. So I will, because you need it.

Little Mac, I don't use him often, but here is what I know (nothing technical like pivots and stuff).

PROS:
+Fast dodge
+Fast dash
+Powerful attacks with a far knock back
+OK grabs
+Can wait and bait in the middle of the stage
+Powerful side tilt
+Super amour on some attacks
+Amazing rapid jab
+Best counter in the game


CONS:
-Easily punished
-Horrible aerials
-Easily comboed

All of the cons can be dealt with. Punished/comboed is the user's fault, wrong move or being read. Aerials are avoided by simply controlling the middle of the stage and not getting baited. If you're kicked off the stage, you're fault.

Being OP on the ground but UP in the air, like I said before, makes him still OP. I agree that once the meta develops he might not be OP with a nerf/people learning how to counter him. Right now he is OP.

Right now according to your second to last sentence he is not OP. People have tons of ways on how to counter him. People think he;s such a problem that finding a hundred different people who made a Youtube video on how to beat Little Mac should take a few hours. Also, you are right in everything you say except that he is OP right now. Right now, many people have already adapted to him, and now he's Wesker in green. A person OP on the ground and UP in the air , would be OP, so OP that within a month, a large portion of the community learns to use him or deal with him, and as of then, Mac is a nonissue to some people. I'm sorry, but up until you, every detractor i've seen is as terrible at arguing an reaoning as Mac scrubs are at playing. Just go to the "Little Mac in 4glory won't be so bad anymore" thread and look at Hayzie. And tell me that's competent. You're right, or would be right, but it doesn't take much to deal with him. Some people here are used to macs, good and bad, and wreck the bad ones, and enjoy the good ones. Like me.

Any character that is too good gets either used to the most, or complained about the most. Little Mac has the most strategists trying/succeeding in beating him, while Rosalina has only complainers. Explains how we know about 2 bigish Rosa nerfs, but none about Mac.

Also, one thing: THANK YOU FOR BEING THE FIRST NON IDIOTIC MAC DETRACTOR EVER! YOU HAVE GIVEN ME NEW HOPE IN HUMANITY!!!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

It takes ONE hit for him to get in the air and then be juggled. Have you looked at Frame data? I doubt it because you're a new poster / only have flair for Sonic/Sheik but if I'm wrong its whatever, just helps my argument more if you're new to the competitive scene.

"That's why you don't go for laggy moves if you aren't gonna hit them"
-EVERYTHING has lag in the game, some more than others. You still missed my point. "If you think you have a combo but you get caught because of a powershield/an over priority move then get comboed, that I don't really see how that can be dealt with besides changing your approach for next time. Oh look, you're down a stock because you got bopped in the air."

Let's use the example of Marth for fun. Marth has a pretty good aerial game, and an okay ground game. However, his ground game compliments his aerial game because of sour/sweet spot hits as well as popping (for aerial followups). Marth can F-air camp and force approaches, and can use F-air as a way to get in to bait an attack by FF F-air into drift back and follow with punish afterwards.

Let's use a campy character now, such as Duck Hunt/Fox or w/e you want. Automatically, you are forced to approach because of projectiles. If you miss your approach, yes, it is your fault, BUT what if it was due to thge other player playing well? You can't blame everything on yourself or you won't understand what is going wrong, same as blaming on "OP things" and other players.

"The less you miss the less you get punished"
-The same goes both ways. Lool. The reason that LM isn't OP is because one hit that gets you in the air is near fatal. If you want to argue this point more give me reasons why this isn't true. He has terrible recovery.


"He can be combo'd yes, but it isn't easy"
-Are you serious? The reason he sucks so much is ecause hes I believe the 10th lightest character in the game, anything that pops him up at a low percent he can't DI out of well because it pops him in a perfect place to get gimped/punished.


"Like I said before, if you don't control the stage and you don't get baited to the edge, you will do better at avoiding being comboed."
I already went over this with campy matchups


"And for the last point, being #1 on the ground but bottom #5 in the air does make you OP"
-No it doesn't, you obviously need help with reading comprehension.

"To say a character is OP means that all of their options will be better than the majority of the cast, and has almost no bad matchups."


"He is the character for new players, easy to use and effective."
-If he is easy to use and effective, that means that his win rate should be higher due to the fract of people "maining" him because they think he is strong, then losing because of his air game. Obviously win rate doesn't mean everything, but part of the win rate is true. He is NOT OP.

I'll sum all of what you said up in a few paragraphs without focusing certain things I said.

I might be new to the forums, and I might have not played melee often (I had it, and I played it, but I wasn't big on it, and I don't wanna tell everyone my main because that means I actually played and was good), but I got big in Brawl. My internet sucked and I didn't know all the terms for aerials and smashes, but I was decent. I played Sonic because he fit my playstyle, if I'm correct, he was tier D or something. Sheik is also because I like her playstyle.

I don't look at who is OP from a technical standpoint. I don't look at it from an in depth standpoint either. I look at what is in front of me. Anyone can say "Wow look at this if you hit pikachu from 1/8th of a pixel away to the left of a platform with megaman with the fifth skin it does 0.1% more damage OP!!!!!" (False example) but to determine if something is actually OP, you look at what is there.

Little Mac can get comboed, but it depends how you play. You said "All moves have lag, some more than others" which I know that. I'm not dumb. If you use LM's Neutral Smash (B) you are bound to get punished. If you use his moves that aren't as laggy, obviously you still might get comboes, but not as much.

For campy characters, Little Mac has to go to the edge, and those aren't favourable matches for him. Only campy characters are really cons to him, since with the rest he isn't forced away from the middle. If you do face one, run up, dodge (really really fast dodge remember that) and go far a rapid dash (20%) or don't dodge and just counter. If they get you in the air, counter. Little Macs air game is counter.

For punishing and comboing, I'll give sheik as an example. If I'm facing a Little Mac, I stay at the edge and through needles, waiting for him to come to me. If he does, and I don't react quick enough, he can deal 25+ damage to me. If I can grab and throw, he might die, depends how far he flew. If I decide to dgrab and Fair off the stage, same thing. Its how I play and how he plays. The Little Mac could fake me out, or just dodge my needles everytime. Its all about the game, but if he is very predictable, I'll win. If he uses bad moves, I'll win. If he plays smart, he can rack up percent on me, he'll win. Sadly, Little Mac has such an aggressive playstyle, he can be called OP, or if you don't like that term, "more powerful than the rest".

Little Mac for newbs is easy to play, and he is effective for new players, but it doesnt mean he is better than people who actually practice.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Right now according to your second to last sentence he is not OP. People have tons of ways on how to counter him. People think he;s such a problem that finding a hundred different people who made a Youtube video on how to beat Little Mac should take a few hours. Also, you are right in everything you say except that he is OP right now. Right now, many people have already adapted to him, and now he's Wesker in green. A person OP on the ground and UP in the air , would be OP, so OP that within a month, a large portion of the community learns to use him or deal with him, and as of then, Mac is a nonissue to some people. I'm sorry, but up until you, every detractor i've seen is as terrible at arguing an reaoning as Mac scrubs are at playing. Just go to the "Little Mac in 4glory won't be so bad anymore" thread and look at Hayzie. And tell me that's competent. You're right, or would be right, but it doesn't take much to deal with him. Some people here are used to macs, good and bad, and wreck the bad ones, and enjoy the good ones. Like me.

Any character that is too good gets either used to the most, or complained about the most. Little Mac has the most strategists trying/succeeding in beating him, while Rosalina has only complainers. Explains how we know about 2 bigish Rosa nerfs, but none about Mac.

Also, one thing: THANK YOU FOR BEING THE FIRST NON IDIOTIC MAC DETRACTOR EVER! YOU HAVE GIVEN ME NEW HOPE IN HUMANITY!!!

One thing: I know he has been adapted to, and I know he is complained about, but I still feel he is a tad OP. I'll deal with it, I wouldn't say "hurr you guyz r dumb hurr lel" like the example you mentioned, and I won't flip tables like SMASH OP UGHGHHJHJH0[J[, but its so annoying to deal with him, even if I can.

and <3

 

[warriorman222]

One thing: I know he has been adapted to, and I know he is complained about, but I still feel he is a tad OP. I'll deal with it, I wouldn't say "hurr you guyz r dumb hurr lel" like the example you mentioned, and I won't flip tables like SMASH OP UGHGHHJHJH0[J[, but its so annoying to deal with him, even if I can.

and <3

Well i accept your decision. I think Mac is i little stronger than normal characters, but i think that's fine and justified considering if he' knocked to the blastline and is not high up there goes a stock. Because even if it's your fault, you're still human and will eventually slip up. So i don't think he's OP, but above average, the way he deserves to be.

 

[Elegant]

I'll sum all of what you said up in a few paragraphs without focusing certain things I said.

I might be new to the forums, and I might have not played melee often (I had it, and I played it, but I wasn't big on it, and I don't wanna tell everyone my main because that means I actually played and was good), but I got big in Brawl. My internet sucked and I didn't know all the terms for aerials and smashes, but I was decent. I played Sonic because he fit my playstyle, if I'm correct, he was tier D or something. Sheik is also because I like her playstyle.

I don't look at who is OP from a technical standpoint. I don't look at it from an in depth standpoint either. I look at what is in front of me. Anyone can say "Wow look at this if you hit pikachu from 1/8th of a pixel away to the left of a platform with megaman with the fifth skin it does 0.1% more damage OP!!!!!" (False example) but to determine if something is actually OP, you look at what is there.

Little Mac can get comboed, but it depends how you play. You said "All moves have lag, some more than others" which I know that. I'm not dumb. If you use LM's Neutral Smash (B) you are bound to get punished. If you use his moves that aren't as laggy, obviously you still might get comboes, but not as much.

For campy characters, Little Mac has to go to the edge, and those aren't favourable matches for him. Only campy characters are really cons to him, since with the rest he isn't forced away from the middle. If you do face one, run up, dodge (really really fast dodge remember that) and go far a rapid dash (20%) or don't dodge and just counter. If they get you in the air, counter. Little Macs air game is counter.

For punishing and comboing, I'll give sheik as an example. If I'm facing a Little Mac, I stay at the edge and through needles, waiting for him to come to me. If he does, and I don't react quick enough, he can deal 25+ damage to me. If I can grab and throw, he might die, depends how far he flew. If I decide to dgrab and Fair off the stage, same thing. Its how I play and how he plays. The Little Mac could fake me out, or just dodge my needles everytime. Its all about the game, but if he is very predictable, I'll win. If he uses bad moves, I'll win. If he plays smart, he can rack up percent on me, he'll win. Sadly, Little Mac has such an aggressive playstyle, he can be called OP, or if you don't like that term, "more powerful than the rest".

Little Mac for newbs is easy to play, and he is effective for new players, but it doesnt mean he is better than people who actually practice.

You obviously still think that you're right even though you're wrong.

No point in arguing with a kid that is too immature to know when hes wrong and hes just trying to save the little dignity he has left.

Little Mac is not OP. "Little Mac can get comboed, but it depends how you play."
NO, he can get conboed, its a fact.

"For campy characters, Little Mac has to go to the edge, and those aren't favorable matches for him."
If he has problems against camping characters, that means that he is not OP. An OP character has ways around this which you tried to state but failed horribly. If he's bad against projectiles/campy characters and will lose to low tiers if they are ranged, Little Mac is NOT OP

"If I can grab and throw, he might die, depends how far he flew"
Because he is an easily gimped character. His airgame is **** and thus will never be OP.

The second Little Mac is in the air, he is vulnerable. An OP character has no glaring weakness, and Little Mac has many.

Stop arguing like a child and accept the fact.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

You obviously still think that you're right even though you're wrong.

No point in arguing with a kid that is too immature to know when hes wrong and hes just trying to save the little dignity he has left.

Little Mac is not OP. "Little Mac can get comboed, but it depends how you play."
NO, he can get conboed, its a fact.

"For campy characters, Little Mac has to go to the edge, and those aren't favorable matches for him."
If he has problems against camping characters, that means that he is not OP. An OP character has ways around this which you tried to state but failed horribly. If he's bad against projectiles/campy characters and will lose to low tiers if they are ranged, Little Mac is NOT OP

"If I can grab and throw, he might die, depends how far he flew"
Because he is an easily gimped character. His airgame is **** and thus will never be OP.

The second Little Mac is in the air, he is vulnerable. An OP character has no glaring weakness, and Little Mac has many.

Stop arguing like a child and accept the fact.

When did I ever insult you? I guess you need someone to be your punchbag. Maybe you are going through hard times? I don't know. There is no need to pull out harsh words.

Yes, I still think I'm right. I told warrior that I still think he is OP but I'll deal with it, and we stopped debating. I still think he is OP. I'm not immature, I know when I get KO'd by a smash at 70% when all he would do was hit and dodge.

You are saying that to make a character OP is that they couldn't be countered by anyone, and being eh against ranged characters makes him not OP. Totally false, by the way. Its called dodging and dashing, my friend. Duck Hunt, for example. He throws a frisbee and LM dodges it and dashes right into DH. Well, Duck Hunt is better at ranged, so whats he gonna do there. Its the same for all ranged. Yes, they are counters, but they aren't invincible. LM can manouver on the ground, around projectiles and into the right spot.

He isn't easily gimped. Gimping is when you hit them out of a jump/recovery. Little Mac is just bad at making it back to the stage. If I get the throw, I most likely don't want to stay near the edge, just in case he side smashes back onto the stage and hits me.

When LM is in the air, he is vulnerable. Off the stage, more vulnerable, but he can recover. Its a blaring weakness, but its not like it stops him from being OP. If he is above the stage, he can counter. Simple as that.

Now, be a big boy and don't try to insult me in you're next argument, if you have one.

 

[Elegant]

"Its called dodging and dashing, my friend."

"He isn't easily gimped."

"When LM is in the air, he is vulnerable. Off the stage, more vulnerable, but he can recover. Its a blaring weakness"


I don't really need to say anything else. if you still think LM is OP by now its kind of laughable.

/thread

 

[warriorman222]

"Its called dodging and dashing, my friend."

"He isn't easily gimped."

"When LM is in the air, he is vulnerable. Off the stage, more vulnerable, but he can recover. Its a blaring weakness"


I don't really need to say anything else. if you still think LM is OP by now its kind of laughable.

/thread

He's entitled to his own opinion. Some people see anything above middle tier as OP. If he sees it that way, he's completely justified because Mac is solid high tier for sure. OP doesn't have a clear meaning in smash, considering how some people felt Brawl Sonic was OP.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

"Its called dodging and dashing, my friend."

"He isn't easily gimped."

"When LM is in the air, he is vulnerable. Off the stage, more vulnerable, but he can recover. Its a blaring weakness"


I don't really need to say anything else. if you still think LM is OP by now its kind of laughable.

/thread

I do. What I said makes sense. He isn't easily gimped, but he has a hard time getting on stage. If you're smart and don't go NEAR the edge of the stage often, how are they gonna get you off easily? When he is anywhere in the air, what I meant was above stage, he is vulnerable, yes, but he can just counter, putting his vulnerability a lot lower than to the left or right of off the stage. You think I'm so stupid, when your whole argument is "lol ur so immature and stupid laugh hah" makes you seem more stupid.

 

[Elegant]

I do. What I said makes sense. He isn't easily gimped, but he has a hard time getting on stage. If you're smart and don't go NEAR the edge of the stage often, how are they gonna get you off easily? When he is anywhere in the air, what I meant was above stage, he is vulnerable, yes, but he can just counter, putting his vulnerability a lot lower than to the left or right of off the stage. You think I'm so stupid, when your whole argument is "lol ur so immature and stupid laugh hah" makes you seem more stupid.

Whatever you say. Is someone that is OP in the air and UP on the ground OP then?

 

[Elegant]

He's entitled to his own opinion. Some people see anything above middle tier as OP. If he sees it that way, he's completely justified because Mac is solid high tier for sure. OP doesn't have a clear meaning in smash, considering how some people felt Brawl Sonic was OP.

Ik hes entitled but its also like saying "Link in Melee is OP because he can bomb jump" or "Snake in Brawl is OP because he can C4 himself back onto the stage" etcetc. There are cons that equal out different parts of the game.

MK was one of the characters in Brawl that was a cut above the rest due to frame traps and high punishability. Was he OP? Definitely. He had no bad matchups, could gimp easily, etcetc.

Little Mac is bad vs combos, and is easily gimped. Those are facts.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Whatever you say. Is someone that is OP in the air and UP on the ground OP then?

No, this was my beginning argument. Where are you for most of them game? The ground. You have to do actions to get into the air, when you start on the ground and you go back on the ground no matter what. The ground is the basis of the game, if you know what I mean. You're aerial attacks are called aerial for a reason, they aren't basic attacks, they are moves done in the air, which you have to jump or use certain moves to go in the air.

 

[Elegant]

No, this was my beginning argument. Where are you for most of them game? The ground. You have to do actions to get into the air, when you start on the ground and you go back on the ground no matter what. The ground is the basis of the game, if you know what I mean. You're aerial attacks are called aerial for a reason, they aren't basic attacks, they are moves done in the air, which you have to jump or use certain moves to go in the air.

Here's the flaw with that. Aerials can be used to approach and pop up characters. Going back to Marth for example, he has a better aerial followup than a ground based game, but his ground attacks can start combos or give him stage position.

Jigs in Melee is a good example of a great airgame and poor ground game.

The ground IS the basis of the game because not everyone can float, but you can use aerials on the ground so you might as well call them basic attacks too.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Here's the flaw with that. Aerials can be used to approach and pop up characters. Going back to Marth for example, he has a better aerial followup than a ground based game, but his ground attacks can start combos or give him stage position.

Jigs in Melee is a good example of a great airgame and poor ground game.

The ground IS the basis of the game because not everyone can float, but you can use aerials on the ground so you might as well call them basic attacks too.

True, and jigs is a fine example, but it isn't the LM comparison I was looking for. Yes, Jigs in Melee has a good air game and a poor ground game, but it isn't a top 5 air game but a bottom 5 ground game. Y'know? I might not be clear, but w/e.

 

[Elegant]

True, and jigs is a fine example, but it isn't the LM comparison I was looking for. Yes, Jigs in Melee has a good air game and a poor ground game, but it isn't a top 5 air game but a bottom 5 ground game. Y'know? I might not be clear, but w/e.

The comparison is a decent one, she can't approach with ground attacks well and has to approach by air. Once she lands a hit she starts to combo.

 

[warriorman222]

Ik hes entitled but its also like saying "Link in Melee is OP because he can bomb jump" or "Snake in Brawl is OP because he can C4 himself back onto the stage" etcetc. There are cons that equal out different parts of the game.

MK was one of the characters in Brawl that was a cut above the rest due to frame traps and high punishability. Was he OP? Definitely. He had no bad matchups, could gimp easily, etcetc.

Little Mac is bad vs combos, and is easily gimped. Those are facts.

Of course MEta Knight was OP. I'm just saying a newer person will feel that mac is OP because he caters to him:

Ground game? check. Noobs are usually on ground
Air game. Nope. doesn't matter noobs don't use aerials well.
Comboed easily? Check. Lol, noob vs noob there are no combos.
Edgeguarding and followups? Like hell he does it well, he can only gimp himself!. But i don't need to explain this one
Recovery? there are what, 4 characters(doc, Ganon, Bowser without mashing and DK) that have worse vertical recovery? And noobs generally suck at recvering.
Spammable jab, dash and smashes. Check, check and check. Those are the moves noobs spam.
Survivability? Wait, what is that? A noob wouldn't survive long anyways!

You see, EVERY benefit Mac has caters to noobs, EVERY drawback are for thing noobs are bad at. Which is why in a noob vs noob scenario, Little Mac is light-years away from the others(and Wario is last because Bike SDs and weird attacks). So a starter has every the right to say that mac is OP, because at their level he's more broken then a million dropped plates. It doesn't make them right though. in an expert vs expert scenario, Mac is a solid character with armor, speed and power, but suffer from drastic drawbacks to more of an extent than any other character. He's not OP. But for a noob, he's beyond OP.