List of HDTV's with no(Or little) lag

[ajp_anton]

You also would have to compare different TVs with Melee. Other games, consoles, or a computer might have different lag. I'm sure almost half of that >50ms lag is from the console itself.

 

[Zodiac]

btw my op is wrong, it has a few frames of lag, far better than most hdtv's I've played on though

 

[exarch]

Google search "Lagless HDTV"
3rd result: this thread.

I'm not sure whether I'm proud of smashboards for having one of the better (or just longer) resources on the topic, or mortified by the lack of information on the internet.

 

[Avalancer]

I hate this thread because every time I open it I expect to see a list.


...but there is none

 

[Massive]

That's because, unless you've got a scaler, almost all HDTVs will have some pretty visible/unacceptable lag for a 480i video stream like the one used for smash. Additionally, many of the more recent CRTs have unacceptable amounts of lag as well due to post processing effects (cheap software comb filters, deinterlacers, frame interpolaters, etc).

I wish someone would post that to the OP, lol.

 

[WumpaWolfy]

Is there any way I can test the lag on my tv? My friends and I always play melee on my hdtv and no one has ever mentioned that they've noticed lag, although that obviously doesn't mean it isn't there. Just curious because I've been thinking of hosting some friendlies at my place and it seems like it might be an issue for some people. Worst case I have an old school tv and a gamecube as a secondary setup.

 

[Massive]

Since nobody has ever officially established what the baseline level of response time is, it is difficult to quantify how much lag a television has.

However, the easiest way to see if something has visible lag vs a known "good" CRT setup is to hook both displays up to the same input. Grab an RCA composite video splitter and connect to both displays at once.

If the lag is negligible, you should be able to see no visible difference between the events on both screens. If you can visibly see lag between the two setups, one of them is substantially laggier than the others.

This is also the easiest way to get exact lag values. Employing a reasonably high speed camera (at least 60fps) you would be able to count the frame difference between the two displays and know exactly how laggy something is.

 

[WumpaWolfy]

Hmm I might give that a shot, a bit of a hassle but I'm curious now.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Since nobody has ever officially established what the baseline level of response time is, it is difficult to quantify how much lag a television has.

. . .

This is also the easiest way to get exact lag values. Employing a reasonably high speed camera (at least 60fps) you would be able to count the frame difference between the two displays and know exactly how laggy something is.

Well, ajp_anton and I got pretty close with the 2-3 frame baseline...

but yeah, even a 60fps camera can basically add ~33ms of lag ('2 frames') depending on the timing... but it should be good enough for these purposes, it seems.

 

[Acryte]

Question about the ghosting, has anyone tested theLG47LH55? It claims a low response time (2.4 ms) but with 240hz it may have less ghosting than the 120 hz equivalents.... provided it isn't lying about it's response time.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-47lh55/4507-6482_7-33488059.html

 

[Pay]

Question about the ghosting, has anyone tested theLG47LH55? It claims a low response time (2.4 ms) but with 240hz it may have less ghosting than the 120 hz equivalents.... provided it isn't lying about it's response time.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-47lh55/4507-6482_7-33488059.html

240Hz refresh rate is kinda useless unless Smash would be able to output that frame rate, which it can't. That TV could only run at 60Hz while playing smash as it is limited by the game.

 

[JKJ]

I have a Panasonic Viera, and while it is playable with a Wii+Component Cables, it still has an insufferable amount of lag for tournament or competitive matches.

 

[Acryte]

240Hz refresh rate is kinda useless unless Smash would be able to output that frame rate, which it can't. That TV could only run at 60Hz while playing smash as it is limited by the game.

Not exactly because 240hz tvs simply take 60hz sources and display them at a higher refresh rate. The difference is that if you previously noticed some ghosting, it will be filling in more frames in between and that may reduce the ghosting effect.

Any 240hz tv is obviously going to be more expensive than it's worth right now anyways, I'm just postulating the effects it can have and if later on when they are cheaper, it will have any positive effects other than reducing response time.

 

[Pay]

Not exactly because 240hz tvs simply take 60hz sources and display them at a higher refresh rate. The difference is that if you previously noticed some ghosting, it will be filling in more frames in between and that may reduce the ghosting effect.

Any 240hz tv is obviously going to be more expensive than it's worth right now anyways, I'm just postulating the effects it can have and if later on when they are cheaper, it will have any positive effects other than reducing response time.

Well with the 240Hz, you'd simply be replicating the same frame 4 times on a game that runs at 60 FPS, which is not really that useful. In my opinion monitors are the way to go if we are trying to transition from CRTs to more modern technology.

 

[Zodiac]

I just want to say I have no intention of updating this thread if people are posting in here about tv's that we could use.

 

[JKJ]

I just want to say I have no intention of updating this thread if people are posting in here about tv's that we could use.

It's ok, I don't think we expected you to.

 

[Kadano]

@ ajp_anton have you found out something interesting about CRT lag?

If you still care, I recently took some videos of a couple of my CRTs with the controller visible in front. The same concept as Novi did it on post #70, but with not such a sucky camera. It’s still an inherently flawed method because everything is out of sync, but recording with 240 fps should make the counting errors and ambiguities less important, so the results should be accurate down to ±17 ms. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rPKo1tw6CnvMyqoyqVbiX3Uk4/edit#gid=1561108402
Not sure why the PVM-480p60 series is so low comparatively, might have been bias on my part while counting. The Daewoo CRT is driven with RGB-SCART and has no comb filter anyway, so I thought it would be the reference for lag.
Anyway, the values are consistently at roughly 52 ms, which is 3 60hz frames. When I host tournaments, all of these setups are perceived as equally lagless by all players, so I assume none of them has more than 8 ms lag.

These 3 frames can thus be assumed to be almost entirely (except for the 700 nanoseconds of good CRT lag, which are completely negligible) assignable to the Gamecube's physics and graphics processing time. ajp_anton’s model of >2 frames lag (0.5 on average for the continuous 60hz stream, another 0.5 for the unsynched controller inputs, 1 frame for calculation and frame rendering, ~1 frame for frame buffering) seem to hold true.

I’d upload the videos for reference, but I don’t really know where to put them. I counted the frames in AvsPmod, and Youtube really doesn’t work for frame counting at all. They are 100+ MB each, so I’ll only upload them on request.

 

[N1c2k3]

Thanks Kadano. I appreciate the time and effort you put in your research.

To anyone who is still coming hear looking for TV / monitor suggestions:


Just wanted to say I recently got the BenQ RL2460HT: http://www.amazon.com/BenQ-RL2460HT-24-Inch-ZeroFlicker-LED-Lit/dp/B00ITORJRQ
+
Sewell Wii HDMI adapter: http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Wii-HDMI-Converter-480p/dp/B0072JP56G/ref=sr_1_15?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1431967067&sr=1-15&keywords=sewell hdmi adapter
=
Absolutely flawless. Feels better (I know it's obviously not) than playing on CRT. Took it to a tournament recently and played multiple tourny matches on it. A few old-timers (though I'm probably just as-if-not-older than them - don't give up on us) wouldn't even touch it, but everyone who played on it remarked how great it felt.

Got mine for $200 on sale. I think all TO's should get one or take part of the tourney funds to purchase one to help spread the knowledge and help relieve the illogical aversions that people still hold on to.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

@ ajp_anton have you found out something interesting about CRT lag?

If you still care, I recently took some videos of a couple of my CRTs with the controller visible in front. The same concept as Novi did it on post #70, but with not such a sucky camera. It’s still an inherently flawed method because everything is out of sync, but recording with 240 fps should make the counting errors and ambiguities less important, so the results should be accurate down to ±17 ms. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rPKo1tw6CnvMyqoyqVbiX3Uk4/edit#gid=1561108402
Not sure why the PVM-480p60 series is so low comparatively, might have been bias on my part while counting. The Daewoo CRT is driven with RGB-SCART and has no comb filter anyway, so I thought it would be the reference for lag.
Anyway, the values are consistently at roughly 52 ms, which is 3 60hz frames. When I host tournaments, all of these setups are perceived as equally lagless by all players, so I assume none of them has more than 8 ms lag.

These 3 frames can thus be assumed to be almost entirely (except for the 700 nanoseconds of good CRT lag, which are completely negligible) due to the Gamecube. ajp_anton’s model of >2 frames lag (0.5 on average for the continuous 60hz stream, another 0.5 for the unsynched controller inputs, 1 frame for calculation and frame rendering, >1 frame for frame buffering) seem to hold true.

I’d upload the videos for reference, but I don’t really know where to put them. I counted the frames in AvsPmod, and Youtube really doesn’t work for frame counting at all. They are 100+ MB each, so I’ll only upload them on request.

Interesting.

But does it account for jetlag

rip my theory.