Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Dumbfire]

yes let's keep talking about obscure, almost never useful tricks, or we could talk about important fundamentals

That's why I have THE INSTITUTE OF ADVANCED LINK LEDGETRAPPING, now with happy, supportive messages so you can feel good about yourself and not be insulted all the time but those meanies.

Thing is, ledgetrapping is an important part of maintaining and extending momentum and can be a crucial point in the match where you get important kills or damage. Get good reaction time, work hard on reading and experiment with several mix-ups. Many of the ones I know and love are in the video. I'm excited to see what people come up with in the future.

The reverse is equally important, we ought to work on not being ledgetrapped ourselves by mixing up as well as possible.

 

[ZSaberLink]

So I played around with the Nair to Dash Attack (btw Fox it never registered as a true combo in training mode either), and it does work at certain percentages. It's just a lot stricter than I thought. A Link with no rage can definitely hit it with a Peach at 77% for example if you manage to soft Nair her while she's on the ground. Interestingly enough, if you're good enough, you could instead Jab lock them with an arrow and then USmash their get-up instead, likely finishing the opponent off. I can do it in training against an attacking opponent, but I'm not skilled enough to pull off the jab lock against a lvl 9 CPU yet.

 

[Natmax]

Interestingly enough, if you're good enough, you could instead Jab lock them with an arrow and then USmash their get-up instead, likely finishing the opponent off.

This generally works very well for me. I admittedly haven't tried it versus CPUs much, but I hit it on players pretty regularly, generally the spacing of the arrow is perfect around 70%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I updated the D-throw follow-up post to include an easy reference condensed version within a second spoiler for each character. Before you use it however, you must read the paragraph I added at the beginning of the post, which is as follows:

Inside the spoiler for each character you will find another spoiler which essentially states in a simplified form what I believe should be used (in terms of damage given and reliability) at the given percents. Note that what is in the second spoiler will not necessarily be guaranteed and is merely what is advised.
I will be lenient toward doing e.g. U-tilt follow-ups if the only means of escaping it are very difficult and there is no chance of you being punished for it, and I will still advise the use of FH Nair where the only way to escape it is to DI behind Link (because Link will not be in great danger of punishment and there is still the possibility of hitting the opponent with another Nair just before you land if they have airdodge landing lag). I will advise to go for FH Uairs even when they are not strictly guaranteed and you have to follow DI, and even when it is possible to avoid them by DIing away, simply because there is no real risk of punishment as FH Uair is lagless. I will however be strict on U-smash and Dash U-smash, only saying it should be used when it is guaranteed. Aerial Up-B is a tricky one because it does great damage but it is less reliable, so I will combine it with another option where I believe it is necessary or I will leave it out entirely for being too unreliable.
Keep in mind that each percent given represents a segment, so 10% to 20% doesn't necessarily just mean 10%, 11% .... 19% and 20%, it could in fact, for all you know, mean 1% to 29%, but a more prudent estimate would be 5% to 25%. So bare that in mind.
Use the second spoiler merely as a quick reference and feel free to make your own minds up about what options you will use given the information provided.

Now here's the link to the post http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552
If you haven't checked it out in a while you'll also notice that the missing DLC-characters/Miis/Shulk-MArts have been added too.

Now...

btw Fox it never registered as a true combo in training mode either

Training mode is incapable of indicating whether something is a combo, let alone a true combo.

you could instead Jab lock them with an arrow

Arrows do not 'Jab lock', they 'Arrow lock'. Only Jabs 'Jab lock'. When speaking of locks more generally they are called 'Locks'.

but I'm not skilled enough to pull off the jab lock against a lvl 9 CPU yet.

Whether or not a Lock is possible depends entirely upon how long it has been since the opponent flopped on the ground up until they were hit with a move that has Locking properties. The skill of the opponent has nothing to do with whether Locks are guaranteed or not, i.e. just because a lvl 1 cpu was hit by an attack that was an attempt at a Lock, if in fact the attack hit slightly too late, while the opponent will flop, they will not be Locked and will not experience the forced get-up. If instead you are talking about having difficulty at setting up this guaranteed Lock in the first place, then that's a different matter.

 

[Rizen]

I did some testing and discovered a weird property of bombs. They're programmed not to explode when thrown at the underside 'lip' of a stage. This includes the horizontal column Omega stages; you can drop>hard throw a bomb and it bounces off the wall. But if you throw at a wall that isn't the underside of a stage the bomb will explode. If the bomb hits a horizontal flat 'cieling it will explode too, even the very bottom of a stage like Dreamland. So it's only the lower sides of stages that prevent the bomb from exploding on contact.

What this means is no more stage bombing recoveries (not that we need them in SSB4). But it also means you can run off the ledge>throw the bomb back at the stage and the bomb will bounce of the diagonal 'lip' and fall strait down a bit under the stage. Parred with the mechanic that you can't tech hits when you're right next to the stage, this is perfect for stopping opponents with long recoveries who flu against the lower lip of a stage>ledge grab to avoid being intercepted. We also don't need to fear stage-spiking ourselves when throwing a bomb at a wall clinger/jumper.

 

[Dumbfire]

I did some testing and discovered a weird property of bombs. They're programmed not to explode when thrown at the underside 'lip' of a stage. This includes the horizontal column Omega stages; you can drop>hard throw a bomb and it bounces off the wall. But if you throw at a wall that isn't the underside of a stage the bomb will explode. If the bomb hits a horizontal flat 'cieling it will explode too, even the very bottom of a stage like Dreamland. So it's only the lower sides of stages that prevent the bomb from exploding on contact.

What this means is no more stage bombing recoveries (not that we need them in SSB4). But it also means you can run off the ledge>throw the bomb back at the stage and the bomb will bounce of the diagonal 'lip' and fall strait down a bit under the stage. Parred with the mechanic that you can't tech hits when you're right next to the stage, this is perfect for stopping opponents with long recoveries who flu against the lower lip of a stage>ledge grab to avoid being intercepted. We also don't need to fear stage-spiking ourselves when throwing a bomb at a wall clinger/jumper.

Wall bombing is cool, people should play around with it more. It's in the AT thread already though.

Wall bombing
Description: Link will throw a bomb forwards or backwards at a surface that is not horizontal, and the bomb will bounce off it, the trajectory of the bounce will depend on the angle of the surface.
How to Perform: Throw a bomb either forwards or backwards at the side of the stage for example.
Note: This allows you to make the bomb travel at unique trajectories. It can be used to hit recovering opponents or to allow you to use an aerial while holding a bomb if you catch it after the bounce. You can run off the edge of the stage, throw the bomb backwards at the stage then immediately DJ and land back on-stage. You can also use the timed fuse of the bomb to allow you to do a deep edge-guard by catching the bomb with an aerial, though this is not advised as it is quite dangerous.

It's true Blubba discovered everything in the demo then left us lmao

 

[ZSaberLink]

I updated the D-throw follow-up post to include an easy reference condensed version within a second spoiler for each character. Before you use it however, you must read the paragraph I added at the beginning of the post, which is as follows:

Now here's the link to the post http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552
If you haven't checked it out in a while you'll also notice that the missing DLC-characters/Miis/Shulk-MArts have been added too.

Now...
Training mode is incapable of indicating whether something is a combo, let alone a true combo.
Arrows do not 'Jab lock', they 'Arrow lock'. Only Jabs 'Jab lock'. When speaking of locks more generally they are called 'Locks'.
Whether or not a Lock is possible depends entirely upon how long it has been since the opponent flopped on the ground up until they were hit with a move that has Locking properties. The skill of the opponent has nothing to do with whether Locks are guaranteed or not, i.e. just because a lvl 1 cpu was hit by an attack that was an attempt at a Lock, if in fact the attack hit slightly too late, while the opponent will flop, they will not be Locked and will not experience the forced get-up. If instead you are talking about having difficulty at setting up this guaranteed Lock in the first place, then that's a different matter.

That makes sense. Sorry about using the wrong name there. Right, I was talking about the difficulty in setting up the lock in the first place and then executing on it .

 

[LinkSpecialist]

I've been doing some research on the Hylian Shield VS Perfect Shielding, here's my findings.

Part 1: Smaller projectiles

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousGreedyBear )

• So it turns out, Perfect Shielding smaller projectiles gives the method an advantage seeing as how the Hylian Shield has to go through a minimum amount of hitstun.

• As for those curious about Perfect Hylian Shield, it's simply a small quirk I've stumbled on, it has literally no benefits on top of a normal Hylian Shield. To perform it, simply auto-block a projectile following up after a normal Perfect Shield.

Part 2: Bigger projectiles

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/SimilarCapitalAmericanquarterhorse )

• As expected, the minimum hitstun the Hylian Shield experiences is smaller than the Perfect Shield, thus giving it an edge on charged shots and bigger hits in general. This should mean the stronger the projectile, the more of an advantage the Hylian Shield should have

Part 3: Shield Breakers

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/RawEsteemedGoldfish )

• Except it doesn't.. it seems after a certain point, Perfect Shield has the upperhand again, which in some perspective should make sense. If not perfectly timed, the consequences are dire and extremely punishing for Shield use, where as using the Hylian Shield is MUCH more easier to perform for only an extremely small trade of added stun. Take this as you will. Truly Link's Hylian Shield is unbreakable like the real thing. (outside those few projectiles with piercing properties)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've been doing some research on the Hylian Shield VS Perfect Shielding, here's my findings.

Part 1: Smaller projectiles

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousGreedyBear )

• So it turns out, Perfect Shielding smaller projectiles gives the method an advantage seeing as how the Hylian Shield has to go through a minimum amount of hitstun.

• As for those curious about Perfect Hylian Shield, it's simply a small quirk I've stumbled on, it has literally no benefits on top of a normal Hylian Shield. To perform it, simply auto-block a projectile following up after a normal Perfect Shield.

Part 2: Bigger projectiles

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/SimilarCapitalAmericanquarterhorse )

• As expected, the minimum hitstun the Hylian Shield experiences is smaller than the Perfect Shield, thus giving it an edge on charged shots and bigger hits in general. This should mean the stronger the projectile, the more of an advantage the Hylian Shield should have

Part 3: Shield Breakers

(Gfy: http://gfycat.com/RawEsteemedGoldfish )

• Except it doesn't.. it seems after a certain point, Perfect Shield has the upperhand again, which in some perspective should make sense. If not perfectly timed, the consequences are dire and extremely punishing for Shield use, where as using the Hylian Shield is MUCH more easier to perform for only an extremely small trade of added stun. Take this as you will. Truly Link's Hylian Shield is unbreakable like the real thing. (outside those few projectiles with piercing properties)

I'll double check this stuff later, maybe get some frame data on it, but what I'd be interested to know is if Link is still able to walk/dash sooner after a hylian shield block as opposed to a perfect shield block even in the two scenarios where perfect shield let's you jab sooner.

Edit: Well it's 'later'. Let's seen then.

For starters I'm not a fan of using MM's pellets for testing purposes because the amount of damage they do changes depending on how far away you are. I'll use the very tip of the attack to make sure the results are accurate.

MM's Jab 1 pellet at full range, 2%:
Perfect Shield gives you frame 1 of Link's Jab on frame 4, and it gives you frame 1 of Dash forwards on frame 11.
Hylian Shield gives you frame 1 of Link's Jab on frame 8, and it gives you frame 1 of Dash forwards on frame 8.

Ok let's try something slightly stronger. Toon's arrows are good because they do consistent damage throughout the whole flightpath.

Toon's Arrow, uncharged, 4%:
Perfect Shield, Jab starts on frame 9, Dash starts on frame 16.
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 9, Dash starts on frame 9.

Luigi has an early and late hitbox on his fireball, but I'll be using the earlier one.

Luigi's Fireball, early, 6%.
Perfect Shield, Jab starts on frame 11, Dash starts on frame 18.
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 10, Dash starts on frame 10.


That's kind of a weird jump from 2% to 4% am I right?
Out of curiosity I'll quickly test Pit's arrows, which apparently do 3.27% with no charge.
Power Shield, Jab starts on frame 9.... what?
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 8.

You know, I'm thinking that there's just something weird going on with MM's Jab pellets. They don't follow the rules. To prove this I'll try one more test.
Sheik's single needle at max range. It does slightly more than 1%, say, roughly 1.25%.
Power Shield, Jab starts on frame 7, add 7 for dash
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 8, same as dash.
This is pretty much what I expected. MM's pellets are just weird apparently in that they must have a special modifier that makes them do less stun to (regular) shields.

And anything beyond e.g. a fully charged Samus shot doesn't matter so I'm not bothering to test multiply reflected stuff because who cares? What mattered to me was at what point the powershield was better than the Hylian shield, and I believe I found my answer.

 

[LinkSpecialist]

I'll double check this stuff later, maybe get some frame data on it, but what I'd be interested to know is if Link is still able to walk/dash sooner after a hylian shield block as opposed to a perfect shield block even in the two scenarios where perfect shield let's you jab sooner.

Edit: Well it's 'later'. Let's seen then.

For starters I'm not a fan of using MM's pellets for testing purposes because the amount of damage they do changes depending on how far away you are. I'll use the very tip of the attack to make sure the results are accurate.

MM's Jab 1 pellet at full range, 2%:
Perfect Shield gives you frame 1 of Link's Jab on frame 4, and it gives you frame 1 of Dash forwards on frame 11.
Hylian Shield gives you frame 1 of Link's Jab on frame 8, and it gives you frame 1 of Dash forwards on frame 8.

Ok let's try something slightly stronger. Toon's arrows are good because they do consistent damage throughout the whole flightpath.

Toon's Arrow, uncharged, 4%:
Perfect Shield, Jab starts on frame 9, Dash starts on frame 16.
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 9, Dash starts on frame 9.

Luigi has an early and late hitbox on his fireball, but I'll be using the earlier one.

Luigi's Fireball, early, 6%.
Perfect Shield, Jab starts on frame 11, Dash starts on frame 18.
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 10, Dash starts on frame 10.


That's kind of a weird jump from 2% to 4% am I right?
Out of curiosity I'll quickly test Pit's arrows, which apparently do 3.27% with no charge.
Power Shield, Jab starts on frame 9.... what?
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 8.

You know, I'm thinking that there's just something weird going on with MM's Jab pellets. They don't follow the rules. To prove this I'll try one more test.
Sheik's single needle at max range. It does slightly more than 1%, say, roughly 1.25%.
Power Shield, Jab starts on frame 7, add 7 for dash
Hylian Shield, Jab starts on frame 8, same as dash.
This is pretty much what I expected. MM's pellets are just weird apparently in that they must have a special modifier that makes them do less stun to (regular) shields.

And anything beyond e.g. a fully charged Samus shot doesn't matter so I'm not bothering to test multiply reflected stuff because who cares? What mattered to me was at what point the powershield was better than the Hylian shield, and I believe I found my answer.

Great finds, man. Looks like it does fall in line with the rest of the what I found. Mega Man's lemons are probably the least hitstun out of all projectiles for being a jab and all which doesn't even combo into itself if you're Link standing will continue to passive the other two lemons.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I don't know how well known this fact is but Link can actually walk bombs that are at rest forward with him. Doesn't work with run animation only walk animation.
Bombs can be pushed over ledges through this technique which will probably have useful applications for edgeguarding or using bombs similar to villager bowling balls on platforms.
And even just on stage if you z-drop a bomb you can re-position it to be a more useful trap in the neutral.

And strangely about 1/20 times I walk a bomb forward the Hylian shield actually blocks the explosion. I think this has something to do with walk animation position or some nonsense like that so it may in fact be impossible to consistently block your own grounded bomb in matches but it is quite neat. I need to test further.

 

[LinkSpecialist]

I don't know how well known this fact is but Link can actually walk bombs that are at rest forward with him. Doesn't work with run animation only walk animation.
Bombs can be pushed over ledges through this technique which will probably have useful applications for edgeguarding or using bombs similar to villager bowling balls on platforms.
And even just on stage if you z-drop a bomb you can re-position it to be a more useful trap in the neutral.

And strangely about 1/20 times I walk a bomb forward the Hylian shield actually blocks the explosion. I think this has something to do with walk animation position or some nonsense like that so it may in fact be impossible to consistently block your own grounded bomb in matches but it is quite neat. I need to test further.

I know all too well how janky the Hylian Shield can be, haha.

 

[epicnights]

Do we know the air time of Link's short hop FF and full hop FF? Oh, and what's the first frame Link can fastfall out of a short hop and a full hop?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I don't know how well known this fact is but Link can actually walk bombs that are at rest forward with him. Doesn't work with run animation only walk animation.
Bombs can be pushed over ledges through this technique which will probably have useful applications for edgeguarding or using bombs similar to villager bowling balls on platforms.
And even just on stage if you z-drop a bomb you can re-position it to be a more useful trap in the neutral.

Old news unfortunately.

And strangely about 1/20 times I walk a bomb forward the Hylian shield actually blocks the explosion. I think this has something to do with walk animation position or some nonsense like that so it may in fact be impossible to consistently block your own grounded bomb in matches but it is quite neat. I need to test further.

Now this on the other hand. This is news to me. That makes exactly all of no sense to me from past experience. And you're totally right. For some reason, when walking both ways, it will randomly shield the explosion. I must know why.

Ok, I think I've got it almost figured out. But for now, I'm just going to say that you can auto-block bombs with the Hyrulian Shield that have been thrown up, come back down and exploded on the ground inside you. At this point I think it's either a very specific spacing thing, or it's a very specific part of the walk cycle, or perhaps even a very specific walk cycle/speed, or perhaps a transition between certain speeds, or perhaps a combination.

I've ruled out the spacing theory because I blocked a falling bomb that landed in front of me. I'll look into this more later.

Do we know the air time of Link's short hop FF and full hop FF? Oh, and what's the first frame Link can fastfall out of a short hop and a full hop?

Including the (7) jump-squat frames, Link can FF at the earliest on frame 25 of his SH and on frame 32 of his FH. Note that you can buffer the FF on frame 22 of the SH and frame 29 of the FH at the earliest.

The airborne time for a SH immediate FF (which of course will naturally not include the jump-squat frames) is 22 frames, while the airborne time for a FH immediate FF is 34 frames.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Btw, is this "A-landing" stuff already known?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC_nNAMYsU&app=desktop

 

[DarkDeity15]

Btw, is this "A-landing" stuff already known?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC_nNAMYsU&app=desktop

I brought up something similar before, so in a way, yes. Instead of doing this out of an airdodge, this is just doing it out of tumble which of course has a lot more utility.

 

[epicnights]

Including the (7) jump-squat frames, Link can FF at the earliest on frame 25 of his SH and on frame 32 of his FH. Note that you can buffer the FF on frame 22 of the SH and frame 29 of the FH at the earliest.

The airborne time for a SH immediate FF (which of course will naturally not include the jump-squat frames) is 22 frames, while the airborne time for a FH immediate FF is 34 frames.

Wow, that fastfall speed really coming into play here. That means, assuming fastfall on the first possible frame, that the only aerial that autocancels is B-Air out of FH immediate FF. SH F-air into immediate FF allows the first hit to strike their shield, though first hit of F-Air isn't safe on shield IIRC, so I'm not sure of the applications of that. FH F-Air into immediate FF allows the first hit to cover OoS options and the second hit to strike shield. Second hit of F-Air is safe on shield if spaced properly IIRC, though you do land with 12 frames of landing lag. SH B-Air into immediate FF has a hitbox out during frames 18-22, with Link landing on the 23rd frame with 10 frames of landing lag. This could probably be possibly useful, but I do not know how safe the second hit of B-Air is on shield.

Keep in mind, anything that I have underlined has not been verified at the time of posting, I will most likely leave an edit on this post once I've verified shield safety. That is, of course, if Fox Is Openly Deceptive doesn't beat me to it :^)

 

[ZSaberLink]

Nevermind what I just said....

 

[Rizen]

Something I've been doing lately is SH/jump backwards>throw a boomerang, fall and charge an arrow vs low air mobility characters at mid+ %s. If they can't reach Link from the air you get a free 12% sniping their landing. Once you have a pattern established they might try to double jump to avoid it and then you have them in the air with no jumps to punish.
I'm finding that charging arrows is useful when paired with Link's other projectiles. Opponents try to dodge and Link can hold the charge and punish the endlag.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wow, that fastfall speed really coming into play here. That means, assuming fastfall on the first possible frame, that the only aerial that autocancels is B-Air out of FH immediate FF. SH F-air into immediate FF allows the first hit to strike their shield, though first hit of F-Air isn't safe on shield IIRC, so I'm not sure of the applications of that. FH F-Air into immediate FF allows the first hit to cover OoS options and the second hit to strike shield. Second hit of F-Air is safe on shield if spaced properly IIRC, though you do land with 12 frames of landing lag. SH B-Air into immediate FF has a hitbox out during frames 18-22, with Link landing on the 23rd frame with 10 frames of landing lag. This could probably be possibly useful, but I do not know how safe the second hit of B-Air is on shield.

Keep in mind, anything that I have underlined has not been verified at the time of posting, I will most likely leave an edit on this post once I've verified shield safety. That is, of course, if Fox Is Openly Deceptive doesn't beat me to it :^)

So a lot of this was super obvious and so I won't make any comment on those bits.

The only thing I found interesting was the fact that SH buffered Bair to buffered FF has its last hitbox out on the last airborne frame. I didn't know it worked out that perfectly.

You can use this resource to check out shield safety stuff https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit#gid=0
It's pretty accurate last time I checked. The deal with Fair is that both hits are pretty safe on shield if you land them out of range of the opponent's OoS options. Fair 2 is 1 frame safer, but then Fair 1 has slightly more range, and range is required to make the Fair safe in the first place, so it's an interesting trade-off there. It's pretty much the same deal with Bair in that you need to land outside of the opponent's OoS option range, but then Bair has less range than Fair.

As for this particular instance where we're doing the SH buffered Bair to buffered FF ('the maneuver') against a shielding opponent, well the second hit of Bair has slightly more range than the first hit (visually it has a decent amount more), but then we wouldn't necessarily be hitting the shield as we land. The second hit of Bair has 5 active frames, which, if we can just take a moment to appreciate this, is kind of a lot really. This means that the effectiveness of the maneuver against shields will depend on the size of the opponent, but generally you'll be hitting their shield on frame 18 to 20, and then every frame it takes to continue falling until you finally land is going to be taken away from the safety of the maneuver.

 

[Kofu]

Quick question, came to this thread to check out the post about Link's DThrow followups and while checking its efficacy against Game & Watch I saw a lack of mention of Fire as an escape option. The move has changed since Brawl but I've been accustomed to using it as a way to escape combos/strings as opposed to double jumping due to its quicker and greater ascent as well as its intangibility frames. Was it just not tested or did it not help Game & Watch escape Link's DThrow?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Quick question, came to this thread to check out the post about Link's DThrow followups and while checking its efficacy against Game & Watch I saw a lack of mention of Fire as an escape option. The move has changed since Brawl but I've been accustomed to using it as a way to escape combos/strings as opposed to double jumping due to its quicker and greater ascent as well as its intangibility frames. Was it just not tested or did it not help Game & Watch escape Link's DThrow?

I looked up Aero's website to check out each character's potential escape options before I did the tests on that character. I saw that G&W's Up-special was intangible from frame 5 while his airdodge was intangible from frame 2 http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Game And Watch, therefore I didn't bother testing it once I was convinced that airdodge would be the best bet, especially at later percents when it starts coming out slightly sooner than other options.
But for the heck of it, I re-tested it again just now, and Fire doesn't help.

 

[Kofu]

I looked up Aero's website to check out each character's potential escape options before I did the tests on that character. I saw that G&W's Up-special was intangible from frame 5 while his airdodge was intangible from frame 2 http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Game And Watch, therefore I didn't bother testing it once I was convinced that airdodge would be the best bet, especially at later percents when it starts coming out slightly sooner than other options.
But for the heck of it, I re-tested it again just now, and Fire doesn't help.

Looks like I may have been living a lie. I think the move may have had earlier invincibility in Brawl which made it better there. I know the move is useful against, say, Mario's DThrow combos at low percents but apparently not against Link's. Thanks for checking, though!

 

[Rizen]

Link got some patch buffs:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-release-pending.425921/
So much for frame 5 jab. It looks like these won't change the meta much but do give Link more power. Dsmash starting frame 9 has impressive powers and might be Link's go to KO move until Utilt starts KOing. Aside from the obvious KO power, Fair will be safer on shields so Link got a nice spacing buff. The Dair spike might now semi-spike grounded opponents which could be great for stopping ledge getups/attacks. I hope upB combos better; Link might use it to kill from down throw. We might hear of end lag reduction in the future once people figure out all the coding.
Link didn't get what he needed but at least he gets higher payoff. Zone hard fellow Link players.

• F-Smash 2
  • KBG 85 -> 89
• D-Smash
  • Hit 1 angle 75 -> 78
  • Hit 1 KBG 90 -> 88
  • Hit 1 BKB 26 -> 40
• Fair
  • Hit 1 damage 8.0 -> 11.0
  • Hit 1 KBG 132 -> 130
  • Hit 1 BKB 10 -> 20
  • Hit 2 damage 10.0 -> 13.0
  • KBG 105 -> 100
• Dair
  • Spike hitbox is now aerial target only
  • Now has a ground-only hitbox at angle 55, KBG/BKB of 40/25
• Up Special 1/2
  • A Million tiny buffs and tweaks (these moves have a million hitboxes, too many to list)

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Dair is eternally disappointing on grounded opponents.

I used to read regular get ups with meaty dair to kill people at high percents but now the move is much worse at killing grounded opponents and sends them much less far away. It seems conducive to more double dair pogos but i feel like opponents can simply shield most second attempts at pogo-ing where they would be in range to get hit after the first dair connects.

I'm failing to get dair to lock grounded opponents as well which could be problematic as it was an optimal conversion link had against certain important members of the cast (CF, ZSS, Sheik)

Can someone confirm for me if dair still locks opponents or not? Could be my execution right now.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Link got some patch buffs:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-release-pending.425921/
So much for frame 5 jab. It looks like these won't change the meta much but do give Link more power. Dsmash starting frame 9 has impressive powers and might be Link's go to KO move until Utilt starts KOing. Aside from the obvious KO power, Fair will be safer on shields so Link got a nice spacing buff. The Dair spike might now semi-spike grounded opponents which could be great for stopping ledge getups/attacks. I hope upB combos better; Link might use it to kill from down throw. We might hear of end lag reduction in the future once people figure out all the coding.
Link didn't get what he needed but at least he gets higher payoff. Zone hard fellow Link players.

• F-Smash 2
  • KBG 85 -> 89
• D-Smash
  • Hit 1 angle 75 -> 78
  • Hit 1 KBG 90 -> 88
  • Hit 1 BKB 26 -> 40
• Fair
  • Hit 1 damage 8.0 -> 11.0
  • Hit 1 KBG 132 -> 130
  • Hit 1 BKB 10 -> 20
  • Hit 2 damage 10.0 -> 13.0
  • KBG 105 -> 100
• Dair
  • Spike hitbox is now aerial target only
  • Now has a ground-only hitbox at angle 55, KBG/BKB of 40/25
• Up Special 1/2
  • A Million tiny buffs and tweaks (these moves have a million hitboxes, too many to list)

The patch notes aren't done yet though? Interesting to talk about what's there so far, but we don't know everything yet.

50% = confirms all hitbox/projectile and FSM changes, does not include FAF timings or unexpected parameter adjustments

 

[ScizorVX]

I can confirm we lost our best combo with the dair change bomb footstool dair lock dtilt uair no longer works because dair doesn't force get up anymore

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Hmm After you land a successful dair, the second dair only does 11 damage. This appears to be a unique number compared to what any dair has done in the past. This number is probably due to the fact that you can combo dair into dair now and they wanted to lower the damage output on it (currently does 26 if they link, which they frequently do), and lower shield break potential.

I am a big fan of new fair so far though. Big big fan.

I can confirm we lost our best combo with the dair change bomb footstool dair lock dtilt uair no longer works because dair doesn't force get up any more and bomb footstool dair will never kill now as of what I've tested

Yah only nair can lock now which is a shame for Link in the meta.
A lot of the top tier could only be locked with dair and not nair (barring absurd circumstances)
like sheik, falcon, zss

So we lose an optimal punish on those characters.

d-tilt fair may be the new optimal lock follow up now midstage at low percent on characters where you can get it to true combo due to the fair buffs tho.

 

[ScizorVX]

Dtilt fair was a bnb before the change hell even before the dtilt change and Nair is too inconsistent for jab locks unless they're big and bomb fair is our best kill option now so we're living the TL life except we're still slow as heck

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Nair is fine for jab locks just on the right members of the cast, I worked on a study with Fox and I can send you who it works on and at what % threshold it works and some comprehensive details if you like.

Also you have more time post nair lock so you can get follow-ups like bomb to dair spike by corner and bomb to upsmash or just charge f-smash. These work at percentages past where d-tilt to fair will true combo lots of cast members so are your best options.

 

[Rizen]

I can confirm we lost our best combo with the dair change bomb footstool dair lock dtilt uair no longer works because dair doesn't force get up anymore

Darn. Can we do something else after bomb>footstool? I mean what's our best option now?

I just tried playing and agree the Dair change sucks.

Aerial UpB seems to chain better but it's hard to tell. Can someone test DIing it with a friend?

 

[Knife8193]

Fair 1 being a kill move may be a big deal. Not as good as TL's fair of course, but given the move's safety and frame trapping ability, it's a good thing. Unfortunately I have no way to compare past versions, if someone who hasn't updated their Wii U version wants to test at what % does Mario die from Fair 1 from spawn point on FD. I will do some labbing on this later

 

[ScizorVX]

Darn. Can we do something else after bomb>footstool? I mean what's our best option now?

I just tried playing and agree the Dair change sucks.

Aerial UpB seems to chain better but it's hard to tell. Can someone test DIing it with a friend?

Well we still have bomb footstool Nair dash attack lol and if you delay dair for the 18% hit Box it still works decently but just jab lock with Nair like we would in brawl
Edit: found a better combo when I actually stopped playing cloud LOL so the new combo is bomb footstool Nair lock double hit dair(dair no longer gives a techable spike so its legit now) now the next part is tricky depending on what their weight/current percent is you could land utilt uair or aerial spin slash off the second dair or possibly uair/Nair I use this quite often actually as the last couple frames of dair allow for the soft 15% to put the opponent in the proper position to follow up since the dair ended and I have no lag upon ending it and am free to follow up

 

[ZSaberLink]

So any thoughts on the new Up-B btw? It looks like the hitboxes have changed based on patch notes.

 

[Catana]

Well we still have bomb footstool Nair dash attack lol and if you delay dair for the 18% hit Box it still works decently but just jab lock with Nair like we would in brawl
Edit: found a better combo when I actually stopped playing cloud LOL so the new combo is bomb footstool Nair lock double hit dair(dair no longer gives a techable spike so its legit now) now the next part is tricky depending on what their weight/current percent is you could land utilt uair or aerial spin slash off the second dair or possibly uair/Nair I use this quite often actually as the last couple frames of dair allow for the soft 15% to put the opponent in the proper position to follow up since the dair ended and I have no lag upon ending it and am free to follow up

where's this ''link's future'' you talked about, scrub

 

[ScizorVX]

where's this ''link's future'' you talked about, scrub

In due time

 

[Catana]

In due time

thats what they all say...

 

[DUKEL]

Information on up B has been changed:

• Up Special 1/2
  • Uncharged total frames from 81 -> 77
  • Full charge total frames from 139 -> 136

It's not much, but the move is a little safer on stage.

In other news. Love the new f-air. D-tilt -> double f-air now does 35%, and both hits of the move are now much safer on shield (first hit is -4, second hit -3), and also kill options. We now have a better neutral approaching tool from the air that doesn't require us to sweetspot n-air right on top of our opponent, and f-air into d-smash or up-b will be good as a not guaranteed, but still solid shield break mixup. It's also worth noting that we can give some legitimate shield pressure to opponents shielding on a platform if we hit both hits of f-air.

Edit: just did some testing and both hits of f-air -> d-smash breaks mario's full shield. It's not guaranteed, but if your opponent really likes holding shield you can get a shield break.

Edit 2: Did some more testing and aerial up-b is significantly better. Sheik used to fall out of it almost every time on training mode without DI, now she stays in at all percents - even 999. You have to practically try to make her fall out (by fading away while she's on the fringes of the move). They've also made it so that if your opponent starts at the back end of the move, they'll be "pushed" to be in front of you. I'm pretty certain that used to be the case, but it's much more obvious now. I haven't tested DIing out of the move yet, as I don't know its optimal DI, so I'll leave that up to you all.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

So what are we going to name Link's new combo?
dair on grounded opponent hitting them off stage -> dair-> jump up-b

The up-b will pretty much always kill opponents at percents where dair -> dair would true combo.
Jump up b is a read but I have gotten it to true combo, seems very percent specific.

Getting dair -> dair to combo is really all about positioning Link's pogo-sword directly in the center of your opponents hurtbox. Any further than the center and you'll hit them in the reverse direction. Any closer and you won't have the momentum to connect hit 2 fast enough.

 

[Knife8193]

Tested Link's new fair kill power. Kills Mario at 101% with no rage and no DI from the Final Destination P2 spawn point. Conversely, TL's fair kills in the same situation at 99%. The power gap between the two fairs is much closer, though TL's fair combos more reliably from a bomb while Link's fair is better in neutral. Only downside of this buff is fair 1 doesn't connect into fair 2 as easily, though it wasn't really reliable before plus I doubt the move was designed to always link a 11% hit to a 13% hit anyway.

Both fairs are really safe on shield now. Almost unpunishable by shield grab even with bad spacing. Though powershielding is a thing and the move is pretty telegraphed.

Dsmash is now stronger than Usmash when sweetspotted. Cool.

Fsmash being stronger is nice, but not really important though the power increase discerns it from TL's Fsmash.

Aerial spin attack linking better is nice. Makes it a better combo finisher and edgeguard option. KB on it may have been altered, though probably placebo. Linking hits being better is for sure though I have not tested with opponent DI.

Haven't really tried the pogo grounded dair myself, but looking at some of the above comments, looks like its a pretty solid combo.