Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Elessar]

Sorry if this has already been posted but has anyone seen this video of Izaw playing Link. Lot's of interesting things he does in his matches gonna definitely start using this with my play style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ

Yes we've seen it, and even if we hadn't this is not the right thread to post it. This should be in the video thread not here. In fact, of you had checked there you would've seen that Izaw himself posted it.

Don't break the rules again (spam).

 

[bluetoonlink]

Hi guys i don't know if you have discovered this yet, but link can do f tilt with a bomb in the hand. Sorry for the bad english

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah it's known. There are a few ways to do it. Either crouch then hit the c-stick Forwards, or hold diagonally down and forwards then hit the attack button, or if you're not standing on a platform (as this makes it harder), you can simply Hit Down on the Joystick then Instantly Hit Forwards on the C-stick.

 

[Zelkam]

After the holidays I'll be consolidating all of this stuff into a single AT thread.

So how's that coming along?

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

So how's that coming along?

It's still technicallty after the holidays until more holidays come. I'm having such a hard time making myself do this, and I have no idea why.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Yo, so here's a video to show some examples from my previous post in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21k5USlb3M

Karaoke Man (Link) vs Pelca (Falco)

Game 3


The first thing you'll notice is that I didn't just throw out every single projectile since World War II at the opponent, but I again, used them for a certain purpose. Not just because it was Falco either. Since he had a reflector, zoning with tools would be completely counter-productive, but you'll see that I threw out the Gale Boomerang a certain way and more often than not, it did the job I had wanted it to; the bring Falco closer to my space, so that I can follow up accordingly. All of this depends on the situation of course, but just tossing everything at them is not the goal here. We have to create and carry out the circumstances that will lead us into better positions as I'm showing in the Youtube video.

At 4:07, you see me throw the Gale Boomerang over the ground of the stage and how it pulled Falco away from the stage as I recovered? That was 100% intentional; Even though my stock still got taken when Falco came back, I used the windbox in that instance to relieve Link of the threat of an edgeguard, essentially allowing a sneaky, but safer recovery and be able to regain stage control at the same time (this can also gimp those who aren't paying attention). It may not look like I had a plan, but I definitely had one in mind. Tactics such as these are what we should start doing more.

The instances where (while holding a bomb) I jumped in the air onstage, you see that Link waits until he returns to the ground to drop it the bomb. The reason this is important is because you never want to just prematurely throw the bomb downward from the air; Doing so basically throws away your saving grace upon landing and can ultimately cost you your stock altogether. Even if Link's Nair is nearly lag-less, Link's aerial game is extremely telegraphed so not matter which aerial move you use, an experienced player is always going to bait this out (and is usually always successful), so it's important to always keep this in mind.


I'll explain more after my slumber
...
zzzzZz

 

[BurstPanther]

Yo, so here's a video to show some examples from my previous post in here.



Karaoke Man (Link) vs Pelca (Falco)

Game 3


The first thing you'll notice is that I didn't just throw out every single projectile since World War II at the opponent, but I again, used them for a certain purpose. Not just because it was Falco either. Since he had a reflector, zoning with tools would be completely counter-productive, but you'll see that I threw out the Gale Boomerang a certain way and more often than not, it did the job I had wanted it to; the bring Falco closer to my space, so that I can follow up accordingly. All of this depends on the situation of course, but just tossing everything at them is not the goal here. We have to create and carry out the circumstances that will lead us into better positions as I'm showing in the Youtube video.

At 4:07, you see me throw the Gale Boomerang over the ground of the stage and how it pulled Falco away from the stage as I recovered? That was 100% intentional; Even though my stock still got taken when Falco came back, I used the windbox in that instance to relieve Link of the threat of an edgeguard, essentially allowing a sneaky, but safer recovery and be able to regain stage control at the same time (this can also gimp those who aren't paying attention). It may not look like I had a plan, but I definitely had one in mind. Tactics such as these are what we should start doing more.

The instances where (while holding a bomb) I jumped in the air onstage, you see that Link waits until he returns to the ground to drop it the bomb. The reason this is important is because you never want to just prematurely throw the bomb downward from the air; Doing so basically throws away your saving grace upon landing and can ultimately cost you your stock altogether. Even if Link's Nair is nearly lag-less, Link's aerial game is extremely telegraphed so not matter which aerial move you use, an experienced player is always going to bait this out (and is usually always successful), so it's important to always keep this in mind.


I'll explain more after my slumber
...
zzzzZz

That's great, i never realized you could throw the boomerang at a downward angle like that, i'm going to have fun practicing tonight.

A sneaky little combo that i love trapping opponents in is to do a short hop followed by a dair which if pulled of right will allow you to hit twice on the opponent, at low percentages this should cause them to pop off the ground a little bit, as soon as you land follow up with 2-3 up tilts and then once they are high enough you can hit them with a short hop up special. If pulled off quick you will rack up some damage and also space them out at the end for some projectile follow ups.

Also a good thing to keep in mind, is when playing some one with a counter like lucina, during the up tilt sequence you can normally get 2 in before they are able to recover, the opponent normally goes for a counter on the 3rd or so as they have a little more time, if predicted right you can charge up a up smash which you release after the counter window ends.

Just a added note, once the opponent is up the air, i jump under them which makes them cautious of the up special to which if you don't pull it off you can land before them and punish their landing.

 

[Lawz.]

Yo, so here's a video to show some examples from my previous post in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=allk5USlb3M

Karaoke Man (Link) vs Pelca (Falco)

Game 3


The first thing you'll notice is that I didn't just throw out every single projectile since World War II at the opponent, but I again, used them for a certain purpose. Not just because it was Falco either. Since he had a reflector, zoning with tools would be completely counter-productive, but you'll see that I threw out the Gale Boomerang a certain way and more often than not, it did the job I had wanted it to; the bring Falco closer to my space, so that I can follow up accordingly. All of this depends on the situation of course, but just tossing everything at them is not the goal here. We have to create and carry out the circumstances that will lead us into better positions as I'm showing in the Youtube video.

At 4:07, you see me throw the Gale Boomerang over the ground of the stage and how it pulled Falco away from the stage as I recovered? That was 100% intentional; Even though my stock still got taken when Falco came back, I used the windbox in that instance to relieve Link of the threat of an edgeguard, essentially allowing a sneaky, but safer recovery and be able to regain stage control at the same time (this can also gimp those who aren't paying attention). It may not look like I had a plan, but I definitely had one in mind. Tactics such as these are what we should start doing more.

The instances where (while holding a bomb) I jumped in the air onstage, you see that Link waits until he returns to the ground to drop it the bomb. The reason this is important is because you never want to just prematurely throw the bomb downward from the air; Doing so basically throws away your saving grace upon landing and can ultimately cost you your stock altogether. Even if Link's Nair is nearly lag-less, Link's aerial game is extremely telegraphed so not matter which aerial move you use, an experienced player is always going to bait this out (and is usually always successful), so it's important to always keep this in mind.


I'll explain more after my slumber
...
zzzzZz

In regards to the situation that happens at 4:07, there's a HUGE problem with that entire option. There's actually two problems seeing how Falco has two simple options around the boomerang.

You throwing that boomerang after double jumping is basically saying "here's my stock, come and take it!" because not only are you throwing out a projectile offstage that has a ton of startup frames, you're doing it after a double jump. All Falco has to do (and the Falco you played failed miserably at this) is bair you and watch you fall. And the other option is sit there and reflect as youre coming back because you are throwing every boomerang with the intention of using the Gale effect. So when Falco reflects the boomerang, it's just going to send it back at you with that specific effect. Thus carrying you back far enough to where you can't recover. Plus, you were so low at the point of throwing boomerang, that Link would not have made it back to the stage at all.

Either option he picks is good for him because you wasted the double jump on this situation.

This isn't a terrible idea against certain characters, but against someone like Fox or Falco...it's a bad idea.

 

[Karaoke Man]

In regards to the situation that happens at 4:07, there's a HUGE problem with that entire option. There's actually two problems seeing how Falco has two simple options around the boomerang.

You throwing that boomerang after double jumping is basically saying "here's my stock, come and take it!" because not only are you throwing out a projectile offstage that has a ton of startup frames, you're doing it after a double jump. All Falco has to do (and the Falco you played failed miserably at this) is bair you and watch you fall. And the other option is sit there and reflect as youre coming back because you are throwing every boomerang with the intention of using the Gale effect. So when Falco reflects the boomerang, it's just going to send it back at you with that specific effect. Thus carrying you back far enough to where you can't recover. Plus, you were so low at the point of throwing boomerang, that Link would not have made it back to the stage at all.

Either option he picks is good for him because you wasted the double jump on this situation.

This isn't a terrible idea against certain characters, but against someone like Fox or Falco...it's a bad idea.

Yeah, you're right. I definitely wouldn't have made it back.

If I wasn't holding a bomb.

Even if he did reflect the boomerang (in certain instances), it doesn't necessarily mean that the boomerang is always going to come back to me. In the events where it does come back when reflected, that's what the bomb is for offstage. To further ensure my survival rate.

Plus, if he was successful with his bair, the boomerang would've caught him trying to recover from so low...if I was lucky that is.

I'm honestly not even worried about the start up frames; Risky choice, sure. But I did that from gauging the situation, not from how fast or slow a move is. Had I not have thrown the boomerang, I'd have made myself an easier target to gimp.

 

[Zelkam]

You're preaching to choir about your projectile play, @ Karaoke Man . I think possibly you misunderstand us. When we talk about "spamming smarter" we mean mostly the same thing as your "projectile with a purpose" idea. No competitive level Link main is gonna tell you to just throw out every projectile under the sun. The only Link mains that do that are the shrubs on FG.

The big difference is that we try to use our projectiles for the purpose of this game, smash brothers. The purpose your projectiles had in Zelda games doesn't carry over to smash. Yes, the boomerang has the ability to pull opponents, and there are some uses for that, but it's main purpose is a long range damaging tool. It's difficult to say that the ability to pull opponents closer is always a good idea when Link is a character that excels as keeping opponents at a safe distance, both with his projectiles and his sword.

And nobody is denying the fact that holding a bomb offstage is a good idea. We've been talking about that for a long time now. Thats not really something new.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Any neat little tricks worth trying out in training mode besides bomb slides and bomb pick-up tricks? I'm bored.

 

[Elessar]

Any neat little tricks worth trying out in training mode besides bomb slides and bomb pick-up tricks? I'm bored.

Ledgehop Fair with Bomb in hand. Go.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ledgehop Fair with Bomb in hand. Go.

I'm already pretty good at that, but I guess it's worth practicing lol.

Also, does anyone know if a Link can punt another Link's/Gay's bombs? It's pretty difficult to attempt with just two hands. I can imagine it being pretty useful in teams. Edit: Nevermind. Hitting Link's bombs actually do nothing but damage them.

On the other hand, not sure if it's been mentioned before already, but it's not in the OP. This needs a good name as well, so here you go.

There's no doubt a lot of ways this can be utilized.

 

[Karaoke Man]

You're preaching to choir about your projectile play, @ Karaoke Man . I think possibly you misunderstand us. When we talk about "spamming smarter" we mean mostly the same thing as your "projectile with a purpose" idea. No competitive level Link main is gonna tell you to just throw out every projectile under the sun. The only Link mains that do that are the shrubs on FG.

The big difference is that we try to use our projectiles for the purpose of this game, smash brothers. The purpose your projectiles had in Zelda games doesn't carry over to smash. Yes, the boomerang has the ability to pull opponents, and there are some uses for that, but it's main purpose is a long range damaging tool. It's difficult to say that the ability to pull opponents closer is always a good idea when Link is a character that excels as keeping opponents at a safe distance, both with his projectiles and his sword.

And nobody is denying the fact that holding a bomb offstage is a good idea. We've been talking about that for a long time now. Thats not really something new.

But that's the difference between a projectile and a tool. Link's tools are not projectiles.

I mean, that's like saying you use a straw for the same reason you'd use a fork. Both are used for ingestion, but you don't eat salads with a straw and you don't drink orange juice with a fork. When you say the term "spam", you're saying it with the implication that all the tools are supposed to be used for the same reason, and they're not. To test this theory, you don't even have to play Smash; try eating a salad with a spoon and see how awkward it is. lol

Cause' I mean Link players have been doing this for a long time, but it's not getting him anywhere. In the Legend of Zelda games, Link never just throws out his tools to try to bedazzle the enemy in some way. He uses them to solve puzzles and work his way around mysteries.

If you try to use them in a way that you think it's only supposed to work in Smash Bros, that only means that you're focusing only on the frame data and damage aspect of the tools, which is honestly kind of a 1-dimensional way of looking it. When you approach it from a more abstract lens, things start to make sense. Cause' I mean Robin's ArcThunder is a long range damaging projectile. Link's Boomerang (Gale or not) is a tool and doesn't fit the same criteria.

You can technically "spam" with Fox's lasers
You can technically "spam" with Mega Man's stuff

but if you try to "spam" with Link

You're gonna' have a bad time. Much like he always has for the same reason.

 

[DarkDeity15]

But that's the difference between a projectile and a tool. Link's tools are not projectiles.

I mean, that's like saying you use a straw for the same reason you'd use a fork. Both are used for ingestion, but you don't eat salads with a straw and you don't drink orange juice with a fork. When you say the term "spam", you're saying it with the implication that all the tools are supposed to be used for the same reason, and they're not. To test this theory, you don't even have to play Smash; try eating a salad with a spoon and see how awkward it is. lol

Cause' I mean Link players have been doing this for a long time, but it's not getting him anywhere. In the Legend of Zelda games, Link never just throws out his tools to try to bedazzle the enemy in some way. He uses them to solve puzzles and work his way around mysteries.

If you try to use them in a way that you think it's only supposed to work in Smash Bros, that only means that you're focusing only on the frame data and damage aspect of the tools, which is honestly kind of a 1-dimensional way of looking it. When you approach it from a more abstract lens, things start to make sense. Cause' I mean Robin's ArcThunder is a long range damaging projectile. Link's Boomerang (Gale or not) is a tool and doesn't fit the same criteria.

You can technically "spam" with Fox's lasers
You can technically "spam" with Mega Man's stuff

but if you try to "spam" with Link

You're gonna' have a bad time. Much like he always has for the same reason.

Agreed. You don't just "spam" projectiles with Link. It'll get you nowhere. Almost every projectile you throw out must have a specific reason as to why it was thrown out. You can't just spam projectiles with Link for the hell of it, because you'll eventually get punished. If projectiles are to be spammed, then you must do so briefly and for a reason, such as conditioning. Link's projectiles just aren't the type you can spam whenever you want. They need thought behind them. That's actually one of the reasons I enjoy playing Link.

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

But that's the difference between a projectile and a tool. Link's tools are not projectiles.

...

Cause' I mean Link players have been doing this for a long time, but it's not getting him anywhere. In the Legend of Zelda games, Link never just throws out his tools to try to bedazzle the enemy in some way. He uses them to solve puzzles and work his way around mysteries.

Flash of news, that is to say; newsflash.

Smash is not a Legend of Zelda game.

projectile

[pruh-jek-til, -tahyl]

2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Flash of news, that is to say; newsflash.

Smash is not a Legend of Zelda game.

projectile

[pruh-jek-til, -tahyl]

2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

So, I'm guessing this means it's a perfectly good idea to charge an arrow in mid-close range in front a Bowser at low percentage that's about the drop kick me like it's a WWE championship.

Because shooting a dinosaur turtle with near impervious skin (heavy armor) from point-blank range with is totally what arrows are designed for.

You have just helped me remember why I'm so bad at Call of Duty. I kept trying to snipe people that kept walking right in front of me. Whoooops

All of these tools function the way the do for a reason. Mario's FLUDD doesn't do any damage, but high pressure water jets pushes back objects that aren't challenging it with the same force

 

[Dumbfire]

Bowser doesn't have super armor, he has universal armor against low damage attacks, and autoguard on Usmash. Nobody is recommending shooting arrows at Bowser at point-blank range, or something similar; we understand arrows mostly have just a long-distance use. How you draw that conclusions from the fact that an arrow is in fact a projectile, by definition, is beyond me.

 

[NofroTwist ProteinfartPie]

So, I'm guessing this means it's a perfectly good idea to charge an arrow in mid-close range in front a Bowser at low percentage that's about the drop kick me like it's a WWE championship.

Because shooting a dinosaur turtle with near impervious skin (heavy armor) from point-blank range with is totally what arrows are designed for.

You have just helped me remember why I'm so bad at Call of Duty. I kept trying to snipe people that kept walking right in front of me. Whoooops

All of these tools function the way the do for a reason. Mario's FLUDD doesn't do any damage, but high pressure water jets pushes back objects that aren't challenging it with the same force

Someone please tell me what the fugg I'm reading

 

[Catana]

So, I'm guessing this means it's a perfectly good idea to charge an arrow
You have just helped me remember why I'm so bad at Call of Duty. I kept trying to snipe people that kept walking right in front of me. Whoooops

You are bad at this game for the exact same reason; you dont understand how to play it correctly.
Whoooops

 

[Karaoke Man]

You are bad at this game for the exact same reason; you dont understand how to play it correctly.
Whoooops

You become top 5 for any character in any Smash game, Like I did in Brawl for Yoshi.

Maybe then you can compare your obvious inexperience to my actual experience. Lol


@ Dumbfire , My point is that all of Link's arsenal are tools, not projectiles and are not fit nor designed to be utilized in the same fashion as the next. None of his tools are built with the primary function zoning except for the Clawshot. If you're trying to zone with everything else, you're basically just throwing things to try to fit that same strategy. But I repeat:

We need tactics, not strategy.

 

[Lawz.]

You become top 5 for any character in any Smash game, Like I did in Brawl for Yoshi.

Maybe then you can compare your obvious inexperience to my actual experience. Lol


@ Dumbfire , My point is that all of Link's arsenal are tools, not projectiles and are not fit nor designed to be utilized in the same fashion as the next. None of his tools are built with the primary function zoning except for the Clawshot. If you're trying to zone with everything else, you're basically just throwing things to try to fit that same strategy. But I repeat:

We need tactics, not strategy.

Make sure your tactics don't cost you a stock in a match. And don't use said tactic as an example with video representation showing that it DOES NOT work.

Also, nobody cares what you did with Yoshi in Brawl on a Link forum in Smash 4.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Make sure your tactics don't cost you a stock in a match. And don't use said tactic as an example with video representation showing that it DOES NOT work.

Also, nobody cares what you did with Yoshi in Brawl on a Link forum in Smash 4.

Even though it did work...? lol
I forgot, everybody likes to only do "what works" instead of trying to be original. Don't take my word for it; try it for yourself. lol

Maybe not, but player skill speaks for itself and it carries over regardless of the Smash game or character you play. If you're only just playing the character, you're already doing it wronk

 

[DarkDeity15]

Looks like I completely misunderstood what karaoke was trying to say lol. Still though. It makes me cringe whenever someone says that Link "spams" projectiles, or advises someone to just spam. He does nothing of the sort (or at least shouldn't be). The only thing Link can even come close to spaming are bombs, and even then you'll eventually get punished due to bomb pull lag, so you need to be on the move and you can't "spam" more than a couple or so bombs at a time.

 

[Lawz.]

Even though it did work...? lol
I forgot, everybody likes to only do "what works" instead of trying to be original. Don't take my word for it; try it for yourself. lol

Maybe not, but player skill speaks for itself and it carries over regardless of the Smash game or character you play. If you're only just playing the character, you're already doing it wronk

It worked because your opponent missed a simple gimping opportunity, not because you were "original". Wanna know why you never see a Link throw a boomerang from below the stage after he wastes his precious double jump? It's because it doesn't work.

Your skill may carry over from game to game because of a similar engine, but that logic doesn't work when you hop onto a new character. Link is all about keeping his space and using projectiles as a means to keep the opponent at a range that works best for him. Want to know the fighting game term for that? It's called zoning. Learn how to do that before you start chucking **** offstage with reckless abandon.

 

[Dumbfire]

@ Dumbfire , My point is that all of Link's arsenal are tools, not projectiles and are not fit nor designed to be utilized in the same fashion as the next. None of his tools are built with the primary function zoning except for the Clawshot. If you're trying to zone with everything else, you're basically just throwing things to try to fit that same strategy. But I repeat:

We need tactics, not strategy.

Does Dr. Kirinblaze utilize his projectiles tools in a way you find desirable?

 

[Karaoke Man]

@ DarkDeity15 You didn't misunderstand anything, as what you just typed has basically been my whole point.

"Spamming smarter" is a vague term that expresses using all the tools in the same way...buuuut they don't do that. It's like you said, they require thought behind them.

It worked because your opponent missed a simple gimping opportunity, not because you were "original". Wanna know why you never see a Link throw a boomerang from below the stage after he wastes his precious double jump? It's because it doesn't work.

Your skill may carry over from game to game because of a similar engine, but that logic doesn't work when you hop onto a new character. Link is all about keeping his space and using projectiles as a means to keep the opponent at a range that works best for him. Want to know the fighting game term for that? It's called zoning. Learn how to do that before you start chucking **** offstage with reckless abandon.

If I wasn't holding a bomb offstage, then yeah, I probably would've never have thrown it. I would've basically gimped myself at this point.

Yeah, you keep throwing everything from your hammer space pocket if you want, because that's clearly been working so well since the first Smash Bros.

Also, I never said said anything about it being logical, but since you brought it up:

Just because it wasn't a practical choice, doesn't mean what I did didn't have any merit; As the antonym for practicality is instinctual.

Instincts, they're there.


@ Dumbfire - Not saying it wasn't effective at all, nor am I saying Kirinblaze isn't skilled but this is only because Chibo doesn't know what to do about it since Link is so uncommon. Players like Zero or anyone with enough current Link experience will just shield all the things getting thrown at them, get in your face, and start juggling you, no problem.

 

[Lawz.]

@[

Yeah, you keep throwing everything from your hammer space pocket if you want, because that's clearly been working so well since the first Smash Bros.

Also, I never said said anything about it being logical, but since you brought it up:

Just because it wasn't a practical choice, doesn't mean what I did didn't have any merit; As the antonym for practicality is instinctual.

Instincts, they're there.

And you keep throwing boomerangs offstage, die, record the match, come onto a character board in which you lack experience, and criticize the people who use said character for not "being original".

It's not a practical choice because it leaves you more open to being hit and does almost nothing to cover you from getting hit anyway. And a more proper antonym for this situation would be: inefficient.

Your first instinct when using this character should NOT be to waste your double jump on something stupid. You know, like that.

 

[Elessar]

Yeah, you keep throwing everything from your hammer space pocket if you want, because that's clearly been working so well since the first Smash Bros.

Here we go, this is the crux of the problem. You think that Link was bad because we didn't rep him good enough, not because of character limitations, right? I mean, this is what this post seems to try to say.

Stop being a CoH and saying that Link failed because we didn't know how to play him. That's like saying that Yoshi failed because you didn't know how to play Yoshi. Simply put, Link failed before because until now, Link has always been utter and complete trash, not because people didn't know how to play with him. I've heard this argument countless times before and it always come from someone who is either new to competitive or someone who is a new Link main. In this case you fulfill the second criteria, only that you also used to play a low tier char so I would expect you to know the limitations we had. It wasn't lack of skill, it wasn't not knowing how to play. It was having a POS character that took more will, work, skill and reading abilities to just get back to the stage than most tops needed to take a stock from you.

@ Dumbfire - Not saying it wasn't effective at all, nor am I saying Kirinblaze isn't skilled but this is only because Chibo doesn't know what to do about it since Link is so uncommon. Players like Zero or anyone with enough current Link experience will just shield all the things getting thrown at them, get in your face, and start juggling you, no problem.

Are you sure you're not CoH? Because this is what he said essentially. Also, what is this (I put it in bold and italics)? Is that that Kirin was only effective because Chibo didn't know the match up? So you're essentially saying that Kirin was only good because his opponent was bad? Also, I find it interesting that you named Zero and not any other player. Why him? he's not the only top and he's not even the best out there. All you're doing is theorycrafting and trying to diss one of the top Link who actually repped Link damn well in tourney in Brawl. Saying that he did good only because Chibo didn't know the MU is like squatting and defecating on everything that he did in brawl. For someone who was very quick in throwing around his "top 5 yoshi" street cred you seem to disrespect what others previously did a lot.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Here we go, this is the crux of the problem. You think that Link was bad because we didn't rep him good enough, not because of character limitations, right? I mean, this is what this post seems to try to say.

Stop being a CoH and saying that Link failed because we didn't know how to play him. That's like saying that Yoshi failed because you didn't know how to play Yoshi. Simply put, Link failed before because until now, Link has always been utter and complete trash, not because people didn't know how to play with him. I've heard this argument countless times before and it always come from someone who is either new to competitive or someone who is a new Link main. In this case you fulfill the second criteria, only that you also used to play a low tier char so I would expect you to know the limitations we had. It was lack of skill, it wasn't not knowing how to play. It was having a POS character that took more will, work, skill and reading to just get back to the stage than most tops needed to take a stock from you.



Are you sure you're not CoH? Because this is what he said essentially. Also, what is this (I put it in bold and italics)? Is that that Kirin was only effective because Chibo didn't know the match up? So you're essentially saying that Kirin was only good because his opponent was bad? Also, I find it interesting that you named Zero and not any other player. Why him? he's not the only top and he's not even the best out there. All you're doing is theorycrafting and trying to diss one of the top Link who actually repped Link damn well in tourney in Brawl. Saying that he did good only because Chibo didn't know the MU is like squatting and defecating on everything that he did in brawl. For someone who was very quick in throwing around his "top 5 yoshi" street cred you seem to disrespect what others previously did a lot.

Yooo, slow your roll there, bro. lol

Firstly, I never ever once said that Link was "bad" nor do I think any characters are "bad". I play(ed) Yoshi and I play Link because they are 2 of my favorite characters. I never judge a character by their limitations because literally every.single.character has them. You should always acknowledge a character's weakness, but don't dwell on them. That right there is what holds metagames back. You're the only one calling Link a POS character, but I see them all as unique.

As a character who couldn't jump out of shield until now, for Yoshi had to find different ways around that. He had a different shield from other, but he also has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game and evasion is another type of defense. <---things like this I've done for just more-or-less every character. As it's not about what your character has in terms of raw data; it's what you DO with it that matters.

CoH may have said that, but I didn't say Link failed. Even if that were the case, that doesn't mean Link can't improve. You know how he can improve? By not dwelling on his weaknesses and focusing on his strengths.

Seriously, don't make fun of CoH for trying to help improve the Metagame. Maybe he came off as challenging or something, I don't know, but what I do know is that he tried to do something to contribute. This antagonistic slandering of Toon Link is also very unnecessary and disrespectful to people that haven't even done anything to you. It's not their fault people gave up on Link in Brawl, they made their own decisions. That doesn't affect YOUR decision to stick with him.

For the record, I only brought up my "yoshi cred" twice on these forums. Which were both several months apart.

I never dissed Kirin and I'm sorry that I only mentioned like...1/30+ pros? lol I'm just saying that the current method can be easily dealt with, doesn't work against someone that know how to deal with it and to just try something differently. I'm doing more than just theorycrafting, I'm implementing it. Please stop getting all defensive with this standoff-ish attitude for literally no reason as if I've insulted your precious character that I not only main myself, but am trying to help build on the Metagame you guys have. New Link main or not, if this is the same nonsense that you greet people with, you're going to be very lonely in this world. I wouldn't want that for anyone, and I'm sure you don't either.

The attitude you direct towards people is the crux of the problem.

So don't try to sit here and try to hand me a bar of soap when your own hands aren't clean. I wash mine several times everyday.


Also, @ Lawz. You're being about as hateful and antagonistic as the people that demean your character. Is that what you told Santa you wanted to be when you grew up? Tell you what; you go on the Nintendodojo ladder and play Pelca yourself, upload the game/set and then show me/us yourself just how to "get the job done". Since you clearly know a lot more, can only judge by a video and assume what a "perfect" gameplay is when perfection doesn't exist in this world. For the record, I get people with this all the time.

I don't see you posting new video examples
I don't see you coming up with any new ideas

I'm just seeing you sounding undeniably butthurt because you're claiming that I'm trying to take away from your character somehow, when I'm only putting forth new idea examples....How else do you think metagames develop?

but do post videos yourself, so that we can see how Link functions, since you're apparently so "experienced", that you have something equally as important to contribute. I genuinely appreciate the constructive criticism, I really do, but don't capitalize so hard on what I'm only doing wrong if you have no intention of showing me or anyone what to do "correctly".

 

[Dumbfire]

Firstly, I never ever once said that Link was "bad" nor do I think any characters are "bad". I play(ed) Yoshi and I play Link because they are 2 of my favorite characters. I never judge a character by their limitations because literally every.single.character has them. You should always acknowledge a character's weakness, but don't dwell on them. That right there is what holds metagames back. You're the only one calling Link a POS character, but I see them all as unique.

As a character who couldn't jump out of shield until now, for Yoshi had to find different ways around that. He had a different shield from other, but he also has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game and evasion is another type of defense. <---things like this I've done for just more-or-less every character. As it's not about what your character has in terms of raw data; it's what you DO with it that matters.

CoH may have said that, but I didn't say Link failed. Even if that were the case, that doesn't mean Link can't improve. You know how he can improve? By not dwelling on his weaknesses and focusing on his strengths.

Yes, I too think you advance in a character's metagame, as in life, not by focusing only on what is good and blinding yourself to the limitations, but by accepting them for a balanced view, and then building from the strengths. Elessar wasn't defining Link by his limitations, however; he was pointing out what was unfortunately true: Link was not good in previous smash games. No wishy-washy language about embracing strengths will ever change those facts. Saying that is doing a disservice to great Link mains who struggled through horrible Brawl Link, like Legan and Kirinblaze and Blubba, doing what they could with the man. That is not pessimism, nor defining a character only by his limitations; that is merely realism.

 

[Lozjam]

@ Karaoke Man
You are just a little insect that is blissfully ignorant of how the world works, and you have no idea of how a metagame actually works. Sometime, I advise you fight me and you will get destroyed by my Ganondorf. Against someone with good reads, such as myself, you will stand no chance. I may be free either thursday, or Friday. Welcome to the Link boards you little insect. You bring disgrace to Link, for you neither have the Wisdom, Courage, or Power to wield him.

 

[Elessar]

Firstly, I never ever once said that Link was "bad" nor do I think any characters are "bad". I play(ed) Yoshi and I play Link because they are 2 of my favorite characters. I never judge a character by their limitations because literally every.single.character has them. You should always acknowledge a character's weakness, but don't dwell on them. That right there is what holds metagames back. You're the only one calling Link a POS character, but I see them all as unique.

You do realize I was talking about Brawl, not Sm4sh...right? If so and you say that Link wasn't bad, heck, that Ganondorf was bad at Brawl I'm done with you. If you say that Basement Tier chars failed because of the players lacking skill or creativity or super powers and not because the chars themselves were bad then I'm really really done with you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

As a character who couldn't jump out of shield until now, for Yoshi had to find different ways around that. He had a different shield from other, but he also has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game and evasion is another type of defense. <---things like this I've done for just more-or-less every character. As it's not about what your character has in terms of raw data; it's what you DO with it that matters.

Raw data is everything. If your character can't jump, recover, is slow, has horrendous lag both on start up and end on his moves it doesn't matter if you're playing frame perfect, you will lose against a character that is, objectively in raw data, superior when playing vs a player of equal skill. You could do wonders, but at the end of the day those wonders are also limited by the raw data. Or will you say that, in Brawl, Ganondorf could've beaten Sheik if he was just a better player? Just that it never happened because nobody that ever used Ganondorf was ever really good?

Seriously, don't make fun of CoH for trying to help improve the Metagame. Maybe he came off as challenging or something, I don't know, but what I do know is that he tried to do something to contribute.

No, CoH became a boards slang because he came with an arrogant attitude out of nowhere, claimed to be the best Link there had ever lived, dissed every top player and then said that Link failed in Brawl because we weren't good enough, that Link was actually top tier. I sincerely hope you realize how stupid that statement is.

This antagonistic slandering of Toon Link is also very unnecessary and disrespectful to people that haven't even done anything to you. It's not their fault people gave up on Link in Brawl, they made their own decisions. That doesn't affect YOUR decision to stick with him.

Who said anything about gay? Why mention him now? Really, why mention this at all?

For the record, I only brought up my "yoshi cred" twice on these forums. Which were both several months apart.

I don't care how often you brought it up. I'm simply stating it's ironic that you, who claimed being one of the best Yoshis in an effort to shut DF up would so hastily diss on Kirin for what he did for the Brawl meta.

Please stop getting all defensive with this standoff-ish attitude for literally no reason as if I've insulted your precious character that I not only main myself, but am trying to help build on the Metagame you guys have. New Link main or not, if this is the same nonsense that you greet people with, you're going to be very lonely in this world. I wouldn't want that for anyone, and I'm sure you don't either.

No, this attitude comes from you posting something, we trying to give you feedback from actual experience and then you trying to diss everything we say by saying "you're not good enough" or "you're not creative enough". Let me ask you, since when have you been playing Link, like for real? Because we have been maining him 16 years in my case, 5 competitively. That translates to actual concrete experience and knowledge of what we're taking about. For someone who tried to defend his authority/knowledge of the game by saying that you were one of the best Yoshis I hope you understand.

The attitude you direct towards people is the crux of the problem.

No because we are talking about metagame and about you not understanding what we're trying to say. Go read my critique of your game in the video thread to understand better.

Look. Originally Zelkam simply said that we agree with you, but that you don't have to think about Zelda but about Smash. Then you got defensive because, and I'm just guessing here, you feel that we are going to flame you at any given moment. You're still somewhat sore about what happened and about your culture thread that's why you are not only defensive, but unable to read what we say unbiasedly and keep mentioning things like the Gay issue or that ridiculous soap metaphor. Taking a page from your book, if you want to go and try this then do it, show us that we're wrong. But this is suppossed to be a discussion board where you post your ideas and we can either agree or disagree. In this case, based on experience, we say "eh, it's not so like that" and you react as if we're trying to ban you from playing. Again, taking a page from your book, go prove us wrong then. By posting here though we understand that you want to discuss what you're saying, not just accept and praise you. If however that is not the case and you don't want to be challenged or don't care (though this is not true because you care too much) about our input then please include a disclaimer at the beginning of your posts so that we can ignore them (as in not reply to them). Finally, the way this thread works is that you put your ideas, we put ours, we discuss, talk about it, say what we think works or not and then reach a consensus. We don't have to agree with you for you to do this, go out, rep Link, be a top player and prove us wrong. That will be hard though because we are essentially saying thing.

Also, do keep this thread on it's rails. As it is it's on the verge of being derailed. If you want to continue this discussion go to social. Just stick to metagame discussions here.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Yes, I too think you advance in a character's metagame, as in life, not by focusing only on what is good and blinding yourself to the limitations, but by accepting them for a balanced view, and then building from the strengths. Elessar wasn't defining Link by his limitations, however; he was pointing out what was unfortunately true: Link was not good in previous smash games. No wishy-washy language about embracing strengths will ever change those facts. Saying that is doing a disservice to great Link mains who struggled through horrible Brawl Link, like Legan and Kirinblaze and Blubba, doing what they could with the man. That is not pessimism, nor defining a character only by his limitations; that is merely realism.

Yeah, I'm aware. I've heard those words before from a loooot of people. Yet, how do you expect to extend the boundaries of your character when you keep telling yourself that it's not possible? Those who say that things are impossible, accomplish absolutely nothing.

You guys talk about "not going by the tier list"

Yet, you actually let it brainwash you into thinking your character is trash. Quick little news flash for you; A tier list does not define how "good" or "bad" your character is, YOU do. It's not and never was a fact that Link was "terrible" in previous games, it's a perception.

If you think your character is terrible, it's YOU that are putting limitations on them. I've lived it through with one character already, so I already know how it goes. So, don't tell me that "Link can't do it" if it is ultimately all of your goals to prove people wrong about it. Get off your nihilistic ***es and start coming up with ways where Link CAN do it.

@ Karaoke Man
You are just stupid, and have no idea how to play Link. Sometime, I advise you fight me and you will get destroyed by my Ganondorf. Against someone with good reads, such as myself, you will stand no chance. I may be free either thursday, or Friday. Welcome to the Link boards you little scrub. You bring disgrace to Link, for you neither have the Wisdom, Courage, or Power to wield him.

Just....stop talking. lmfao

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok OK! Jeez. This is now well and truly off topic. I'm locking this up till you've cooled down. When I unlock it again I expect people to get back on topic or not post at all. When it is opened I will be watching closely. In the mean time, take your semantics discussion and your hurt feelings somewhere else. You know I really hate to be a kill-joy and all, but this was just getting silly.

 

[PKBeam]

sooooo.....
anyone ever broken a shield with Fsmash?

 

[Elessar]

sooooo.....
anyone ever broken a shield with Fsmash?

I haven't sadly. I have come close though but only by connecting both hits on a weakened shield. I don't think that it's viable.

 

[BurstPanther]

Never broker a shield as Link,

On a different note, i'm at work so currently can't try,

But could you throw a gale boomerang away from your opponent, pull a bomb, jump over the gale and dump the bomb into it?

I had it before when i was versing a Link ditto and threw a bomb into the return of their gale and hit them, just wondering if you could replicate the effect by yourself.

 

[Zelkam]

Never broker a shield as Link,

On a different note, i'm at work so currently can't try,

But could you throw a gale boomerang away from your opponent, pull a bomb, jump over the gale and dump the bomb into it?

I had it before when i was versing a Link ditto and threw a bomb into the return of their gale and hit them, just wondering if you could replicate the effect by yourself.

I don't think our bombs are affected by our gale unless it gets reflected, so no I don't think this would work. It would be freakin' awesome if it did though.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I don't think our bombs are affected by our gale unless it gets reflected, so no I don't think this would work. It would be freakin' awesome if it did though.

Link teams. Enough said.

I've actually broken a couple of shields with a fully charged dsmash, actually. I can't remember if the shields were weakened but I do remember that it always took a hard read.

Edit: Just tested it out in training mode and holy **** does it work. The opponent's shield doesn't even need to be weakened by all that much, either. Fully charged Link Dsmash confirmed as a shield breaker lol. Uncharged Dsmash is also really good at breaking weakened shields.