Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Dumbfire]

Bomb throw down > first hit of Bair works, and if you link it into a Utilt it does far more damage than the Nair people usually throw out. You can catch spotdogdes and shield drops with it too -- but those are very opponent dependent.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Also how the **** do i deal with warios bite?

If they tend to use it often, throw a bomb. It acts like a stun when he eats it, so you can dash attack, grab, or up smash to punish it.

 

[Naroghin]

Bomb throw down > first hit of Bair works, and if you link it into a Utilt it does far more damage than the Nair people usually throw out. You can catch spotdogdes and shield drops with it too -- but those are very opponent dependent.

Awesome! I haven't tried it with bomb throws yet. I've mostly been punishing techs, rolls, landings, and whiffs with it. Some sort of semi-viable approach options would be great. WIth the aid of platforms I think this would be even more viable.

 

[FierceGaiety]

Awesome! I haven't tried it with bomb throws yet. I've mostly been punishing techs, rolls, landings, and whiffs with it. Some sort of semi-viable approach options would be great. WIth the aid of platforms I think this would be even more viable.

Why even approach Wario when you're Link? Just kick back, keep a bomb on the stage and a bomb in your hand, throw rangs and shoot arrows and hum your favorite song until he comes to you. Basically all he can do is approach you (usually via motorcycle) or just stand there getting lit up. If he's eating all your projectiles it's still nbd, bombs will still do damage anyway. Bombs are basically the greatest ever.

 

[Lawz.]

I don't like to assume. It's a bad idea to try and look for a solution where none can be found. Until customs are widely legalized it would be a good idea to just forget about them.

A lot of tournaments are using customs right now. Not to say that's permanent but most I've seen have been using customs.

 

[DarkDeity15]

So apparently Link can cancel his rolls with a bomb throw in any direction in the earlier parts of a them in this game (my or may not have been in Brawl). Link will have invincibility while he's rolling, but the invincibility will be canceled when Link throws the bomb. The invincibility also allows you to pretty much ignore a fast attack when timed strictly whilst throwing a bomb immediately afterwards. Useful or nah? Has it been patched? Someone test it. You guys probably know about this already, and if so whatevz then. This just seems like it might be useful somehow.

As for first hit fair being safe as hell, I agree. You can act out of a first hit fair almost twice as fast as jab 1, making it a super safe option on shield, and safer than pre-patch jab 1 somewhat in general after getting the move out. It also does 8% damage as opposed to two (meaning it dishes out 4x the damage of jab 1, and twice the damage of a double jab). So yep, it's way worth landing the hit. I know for a fact because I've done a comparison already with my pre-updated game (so yay for safe offensive options!). The only downside here is that it seems to stop comboing at around 55-60% and fair has a bit of startup, so we'll be needing to try and prevent this from being telegraphed as best as we can.

 

[Drigo Toes]

So... Are we getting to SHFFL in smash4?

(For the no melee people, SHFFL stands for Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel. Link has a very good swordplay with first hit F-air into L-Cancel in that game).

 

[Elessar]

So... Are we getting to SHFFL in smash4?

(For the no melee people, SHFFL stands for Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel. Link has a very good swordplay with first hit F-air into L-Cancel in that game).

We have for quite sometime already. Falco depends on that to be able to combo most of his hits. For Link it's just not starting to become really crucial.

 

[Naroghin]

Unfortunately it's not a button-press L-cancel, though. That would be sick. My 64 shops would actually mean something, then.

Why even approach Wario when you're Link? Just kick back, keep a bomb on the stage and a bomb in your hand, throw rangs and shoot arrows and hum your favorite song until he comes to you. Basically all he can do is approach you (usually via motorcycle) or just stand there getting lit up. If he's eating all your projectiles it's still nbd, bombs will still do damage anyway. Bombs are basically the greatest ever.

Correct; I think we were speaking in general. That little discussionette was spliced in from another thread so I kinda missed the stuff right before.

 

[Lawz.]

So apparently Link can cancel his rolls with a bomb throw in any direction in the earlier parts of a them in this game (my or may not have been in Brawl). Link will have invincibility while he's rolling, but the invincibility will be canceled when Link throws the bomb. The invincibility also allows you to pretty much ignore a fast attack when timed strictly whilst throwing a bomb immediately afterwards. Useful or nah? Has it been patched? Someone test it. You guys probably know about this already, and if so whatevz then. This just seems like it might be useful somehow.

As for first hit fair being safe as hell, I agree. You can act out of a first hit fair almost twice as fast as jab 1, making it a super safe option on shield, and safer than pre-patch jab 1 somewhat in general after getting the move out. It also does 8% damage as opposed to two (meaning it dishes out 4x the damage of jab 1, and twice the damage of a double jab). So yep, it's way worth landing the hit. I know for a fact because I've done a comparison already with my pre-updated game (so yay for safe offensive options!). The only downside here is that it seems to stop comboing at around 55-60% and fair has a bit of startup, so we'll be needing to try and prevent this from being telegraphed as best as we can.

Yeah that's Smash 4's version of glide tossing. You also don't get invincibility, you're canceling that in order to get that glide animation. Diddy players use it as a setup into fsmash

 

[ama99]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-item-toss-cancelled-item-throw.399888/

Seems that Link can do it, does anyone have a video of how long the slide is?

 

[DarkDeity15]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-item-toss-cancelled-item-throw.399888/

Seems that Link can do it, does anyone have a video of how long the slide is?

Not long at all. Pretty nonexistent if anything.

 

[Nimious]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-item-toss-cancelled-item-throw.399888/

Seems that Link can do it, does anyone have a video of how long the slide is?

Yes, that's just a bombslide. Not me doing it but this guy has it okay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehq_R47QBko

Not long at all. Pretty nonexistent if anything.

...Ugh....that's a long noticeable distance, actually the perfect distance. Bombslides is the key to the Link metagame now more than ever.

For example forward bombslide gives enough extra distance for Link to actually true combo on the bomb hits with with Zair, Fair, Nair, Up Tilt, etc.

The only other way Link can do a true combo is through close range boomerang which is no where as safe as a bombslide.



Hello Fox, can I suggest for you to make a setup section? For kills, combos, whatever. I just hope we can discuss and develop some setups to help generate some easier wins.

Given the recent patch and loss of jab cancels, finishing stocks has really become an issue. While there has been discussion in this thread it's pretty well buried for something so critical.

If you are too busy I volunteer to make a thread to give this topic the exposure and focus it really needs. We need to accumulate an easy to see and understand list as soon as possible. It needs a format.

For example, given the nature of Link, most setups are not true combos so if you have setup please note the percentages and on which characters it works on.

Setups:
1. Jab Two Cancel -> Smash, Grab, Tilts
Effective on Link at xx% - xxx%
2. First Hit of Bair Cancelled into Up-Tilt
Effective on Bowser, Charizard at any percent.
3. Second Hit of Bair -> Arrow Reset
This is effective on most characters so long as your opponent misses their tech. At higher percentages you might have to walk further before firing the arrow to reset them. If it lands you can get anything from a dash attack to smash attack on them.

The above is all just a rough example but I think this would be most effective way to go about this critical topic.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So apparently Link can cancel his rolls with a bomb throw in any direction in the earlier parts of a them in this game (my or may not have been in Brawl). Link will have invincibility while he's rolling, but the invincibility will be canceled when Link throws the bomb. The invincibility also allows you to pretty much ignore a fast attack when timed strictly whilst throwing a bomb immediately afterwards. Useful or nah? Has it been patched? Someone test it. You guys probably know about this already, and if so whatevz then. This just seems like it might be useful somehow.

While every character can do a roll cancel item toss (RCIT), I don't think anyone in smash 4 actually gets a slide out of it, i.e. I don't think anyone can glide toss in smash 4. The term 'glide toss' is often misused for a boost toss (what we call a bombslide) or even a JC throw. Also, because roll doesn't have invincibility during the initial frames, and because glide tossing would consist of cancelling the roll within the first initial frames, there would be no invincibility gained, or at least none that would make any difference whatsoever.

Hello Fox, can I suggest for you to make a setup section? For kills, combos, whatever. I just hope we can discuss and develop some setups to help generate some easier wins.

I'll keep it in mind when I update.

Also I wouldn't worry about making it yourself. I've got this. I won't be free to take on any big projects like updating the OP till the very end of this month, but, let's just say that I work really fast when I do get work done.

 

[DarkDeity15]

While every character can do a roll cancel item toss (RCIT), I don't think anyone in smash 4 actually gets a slide out of it, i.e. I don't think anyone can glide toss in smash 4. The term 'glide toss' is often misused for a boost toss (what we call a bombslide) or even a JC throw. Also, because roll doesn't have invincibility during the initial frames, and because glide tossing would consist of cancelling the roll within the first initial frames, there would be no invincibility gained, or at least none that would make any difference whatsoever.


I'll keep it in mind when I update.

Also I wouldn't worry about making it yourself. I've got this. I won't be free to take on any big projects like updating the OP till the very end of this month, but, let's just say that I work really fast when I do get work done.

Yeah, but if you cancel the roll late enough, you actually do get a reasonable amount of invincibility frames out of it. I'd suggest screwing around with it a bit more. But yeah, if proven useless, oh well.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah that's why I said 'at least none that would make any difference whatsoever'. I don't believe that something like 1 to 2 invulnerability frames matter or could realistically be used to purposefully dodge anything. It would be safer and more realistic to go for a powershield to bomb throw.
Still, it does make me curious... I have to wonder whether it is technically possible to dodge stuff.
Ok, so I'll first try to dodge Mario's Jab. It most likely has active hit frames for 2 frames as with many quick moves. (edit: I looked it up, and yeah it's active hit frames are frames 2 to 3.) This means it should technically be possible to dodge if I time everything frame perfectly.
It's not going well... I think the problem is that I can only skip 2 frames at a time minimum, and I'm either off by one frame or there is only one frame of invulnerability, so I need a faster Jab with less active hit frames. Mac's comes out on frame 1 and last for one frame instead of two, and Fox's comes out on frame two and also lasts for only one frame, so one of them should definitely work. If neither does then I'd be surprised. Ok Mac's was slightly too quick after one skip, so Fox's should be perfect. Success! I was able to dodge an attack with a RCIT.
Hopefully the above difficulty I had will give you some idea of just how impractical dodging things with a RCIT really is. I stand by my original statement.

Edit: After more tests, it would seem that there is only one frame of invulnerability at the most. If you leave it any later you can't cancel the roll. That's... worse than I first thought.

 

[Elessar]

I want to mention something interesting. After reading the whole zdrop bomb thing DarkDeity15 brought up I decided to tests it just to se how impractical it is (which is what I believed it to be) and I was right in that it's pretty useless as an approach. However, I've been using it to cover my landings to great success.

Basically if I'm sent too high I take out a bomb. I can either use the bomb to defend myself or hold on to it. If I hold on, I am essentially able to airdodge without worrying about the landing lag since I'll zdrop the bomb as I land. If my opponent comes in for a punish (be it attack or grab) he will be hit by the bomb thus giving me enough time to recover from the landing lag.

So far my opponents haven't been able to adapt to it because they're not used to having to worry about it, landing lag means free punish still. I'd suggest more Link mains start testing it since it does save us from being punished and landing becomes slightly easier.

This is a sad statement though. Looks like we're back to early brawl meta. Always have a bomb in hand. I'm sorry to say this, but this nerf has turned sm4sh into brawl 2.0 for Link.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I want to mention something interesting. After reading the whole zdrop bomb thing DarkDeity15 brought up I decided to tests it just to se how impractical it is (which is what I believed it to be) and I was right in that it's pretty useless as an approach. However, I've been using it to cover my landings to great success.

Basically if I'm sent too high I take out a bomb. I can either use the bomb to defend myself or hold on to it. If I hold on, I am essentially able to airdodge without worrying about the landing lag since I'll zdrop the bomb as I land. If my opponent comes in for a punish (be it attack or grab) he will be hit by the bomb thus giving me enough time to recover from the landing lag.

So far my opponents haven't been able to adapt to it because they're not used to having to worry about it, landing lag means free punish still. I'd suggest more Link mains start testing it since it does save us from being punished and landing becomes slightly easier.

This is a sad statement though. Looks like we're back to early brawl meta. Always have a bomb in hand. I'm sorry to say this, but this nerf has turned sm4sh into brawl 2.0 for Link.

Nah, Link doesn't suffer nearly as much lol.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I am essentially able to airdodge without worrying about the landing lag since I'll zdrop the bomb as I land.

I have a problem with this. As far as I can make out, if you don't wait till the whole airdodge animation has ended, you can't z-drop. If you do it any sooner, you'll just throw the bomb. But then, if you wait till the airdodge animation has ended, then you'll land laglessly anyway.

But there is a work around. It is in fact possible to z-drop the bomb after the invincibility frames of an airdodge have ended and well before the rest of the airdodge animation is over. In order to do this, you need to do another airdodge and then cancel the initial frames of that second airdodge with the z-drop. To see the difference, using the method I'm talking about allows you to z-drop a bomb before you touch the ground after a FH airdodge. The issue with this is that first of all it z-drops the bomb behind you (arguably a good thing) and that it means you have to go through the full airdodge lag, even if you z-drop it right up against the ground.

... actually now that I read your post again, with all that talk about the bomb covering the landing lag, I think that this may have actually been what you were talking about. In which case, I guess you can thank me for making your brilliant idea easier to understand XD.
Edit: The above is crossed out as I'm now being told that this was not what Elessar was talking about.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I have a problem with this. As far as I can make out, if you don't wait till the whole airdodge animation has ended, you can't z-drop. If you do it any sooner, you'll just throw the bomb. But then, if you wait till the airdodge animation has ended, then you'll land laglessly anyway.

But there is a work around. It is in fact possible to z-drop the bomb after the invincibility frames of an airdodge have ended and well before the rest of the airdodge animation is over. In order to do this, you need to do another airdodge and then cancel the initial frames of that second airdodge with the z-drop. To see the difference, using the method I'm talking about allows you to z-drop a bomb before you touch the ground after a FH airdodge. The issue with this is that first of all it z-drops the bomb behind you (arguably a good thing) and that it means you have to go through the full airdodge lag, even if you z-drop it right up against the ground.

... actually now that I read your post again, with all that talk about the bomb covering the landing lag, I think that this may have actually been what you were talking about. In which case, I guess you can thank me for making your brilliant idea easier to understand XD.

Is it possible to bomb shine with the airdodge though? Edit : nvrmind

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is it possible to bomb shine with the airdodge though?

...
What do you mean? Do you mean is it possible to land laglessly? I already said no. Do you mean is it possible to land on people and have the bomb blow up instantly? Of course it is.
And it's not an airdoge, it's cancelling the initial frames of an airdodge with a z-drop. The same way you do an invincibomb from brawl. Back in brawl using an invincibomb to z-drop a bomb used to be called an invinvcibomb drop. It had rare applications mostly revolving around the fact that it would z-drop behind as opposed to in front or because it would allow you to z-drop sooner than normal, as in this case.

 

[DarkDeity15]

...
What do you mean? Do you mean is it possible to land laglessly? I already said no. Do you mean is it possible to land on people and have the bomb blow up instantly? Of course it is.
And it's not an airdoge, it's cancelling the initial frames of an airdodge with a z-drop. The same way you do an invincibomb from brawl.

Already said nevermind lol.

 

[Bravo]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-item-toss-cancelled-item-throw.399888/

Seems that Link can do it, does anyone have a video of how long the slide is?

It IS noticeable, to everyone that disregarded this because you thought it was a bombslide, it is not a bombslide. Check the thread. I can confirm this tech, already tested it.

 

[kxiong92]

It IS noticeable, to everyone that disregarded this because you thought it was a bombslide, it is not a bombslide. Check the thread. I can confirm this tech, already tested it.

I tried this with Link, and yes, it is very noticeable. It seems to have the same distance as a bombslide.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Only, it is a bombslide. 'Bombslide' is what Link's have been calling this exact tech since the beginning of Brawl.
What exactly do you think a bombslide is? And more importantly, where did you get that incorrect information?

 

[Dumbfire]

Guys it's just an upward bombslide, we've been doing this since Brawl. Do you need videos?

 

[kxiong92]

The inputs are different and a bit harder with tap jump off. The bombsilde with the dacus inputs is easier. It's probably better to use the bombslide with the dacus inputs if you have tap jump off.

 

[Elessar]

What is the practical difference between both? If there is not practical, concrete difference then why should we do this instead of a bombslide?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's all the same tech. There are many different ways of performing it each with their own little pros and cons. I'll explain everything when/if I make my AT thread. Until then just assume that everyone is wrong.

 

[Lawz.]

It's all the same tech. There are many different ways of performing it each with their own little pros and cons. I'll explain everything when/if I make my AT thread. Until then just assume that everyone is wrong.

You mean my life is a lie?

 

[Frost_Aer0]

When you guys are ready to switch topics I have one Id like to propose cause I feel like as Link Mains we don't have an inherently ridiculous punish game, meaning it takes thought, like the S2J 0-death rest punish or melee rest or a Ganons power. I think we should share how we punish ppl for not only things like sheild breaks and a missed rest ( you have 2 days) but also super laggy moves like a falcon dive kick in neutral.

 

[8MAN]

When you guys are ready to switch topics I have one Id like to propose cause I feel like as Link Mains we don't have an inherently ridiculous punish game, meaning it takes thought, like the S2J 0-death rest punish or melee rest or a Ganons power. I think we should share how we punish ppl for not only things like sheild breaks and a missed rest ( you have 2 days) but also super laggy moves like a falcon dive kick in neutral.

In sheild break situations, you should just go for a fully charged f-smash, considering it does the most damage if both hits connect, as well as having really good knockback with the second hit.
If you're near a ledge and you're facing a character with a mediocre recovery like Dr. Mario, just hit him with the 2nd hit of d-smash and semi-spike him to the blast zone where you can follow up with a gimp.
But tbh, Link's shield breaking potential isn't the best, considering both hits of f-smash can't breaks shields

 

[DJTHED]

In sheild break situations, you should just go for a fully charged f-smash, considering it does the most damage if both hits connect, as well as having really good knockback with the second hit.

I think a fully charged Up B would be more fitting in this situation, especially with it's recent buff in damage. It also doesn't whiff as easily

EDIT:
Oh, did you mean what moves to use to cause a shield break? Well down smash is our best option there, but getting the shield to break isn't easy to pull off since it requires significant prior shield damage to do it.

 

[Elessar]

In sheild break situations, you should just go for a fully charged f-smash, considering it does the most damage if both hits connect, as well as having really good knockback with the second hit.
If you're near a ledge and you're facing a character with a mediocre recovery like Dr. Mario, just hit him with the 2nd hit of d-smash and semi-spike him to the blast zone where you can follow up with a gimp.
But tbh, Link's shield breaking potential isn't the best, considering both hits of f-smash can't breaks shields

How fsmash doesn't break Shields, but his dsmash does. Hit a somewhat weakened shield with a somewhat charged dsmash and you will break it.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I tried Fsmash against Spin Attack fully charged in break shield situation (prepatch). Fsmash was way more good in damage and knock back.

 

[8MAN]

How fsmash doesn't break Shields, but his dsmash does. Hit a somewhat weakened shield with a somewhat charged dsmash and you will break it.

Will fully charged d-smash break fresh shields? Or does it also need to be slightly weakened as well?

 

[FSK]

Will fully charged d-smash break fresh shields? Or does it also need to be slightly weakened as well?

It needs to be weakened

 

[Elessar]

Will fully charged d-smash break fresh shields? Or does it also need to be slightly weakened as well?

Link does have anything that will break a fresh shield, and iirc dsmash is his best shield breaker now.

 

[KenMeister]

How viable/situational would you guys believe using down-tilts for shield-poking be, or should I just stick with down-smash?

 

[Elessar]

How viable/situational would you guys believe using down-tilts for shield-poking be, or should I just stick with down-smash?

Stick with dsmash. Dtilt has no shield poking capabilities, no shield pressure, and has more end lag. There is literally no reason to choose it over dsmash for shield pressure.