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Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

DarkDeity15

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Have you guys ever considered approaching with the Uthrow variations of bomb slide (I mentioned it in the social)? The fake-out variation is better than JC cancel toss in terms of sliding distance, and therefore can be used to approach with bombs in a similar fashion, only that you can approach from quite a bit further away. As for the normal uthrow bomb slide, since it slides us for such long distances in a short period of time (in fact, it's quite a bit faster than Link's usual run speed), we can try to use this as a sort of wave-dash to approach with jabs, grabs, kill moves and so on. And because you move so quickly, it's possible to take someone by surprise.

Opinions?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Elessar mentioned it earlier in this thread I believe when we were comparing dash throw, JC throw and bombslide up-throw fake out. It's best for if you're on the offensive, otherwise JC throw is safer. Something like that.
 
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DarkDeity15

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Ah, ok then.

I just thought of something though. Is it possible to boost grab out of a bomb slide?

Edit: Just a question since I'm in Saturday school right now.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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We don't really have a 'boost grab'. We have a dash attack cancelled grab, like every character, but we don't get any 'boost' or slide out of it compared to a regular dash grab. But then, if you're already up close from the slide, why the need to dash?

Can we grab out of a bombslide up-throw fake out and connect the grab? Well so long as the opponent doesn't get hit too high, sure. We can get a grab after a JC throw or a Bombslide up-throw fake out.

But then, why would you want to waste the combo your bomb set up on a grab? Am I missing something here?
 

DarkDeity15

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We don't really have a 'boost grab'. We have a dash attack cancelled grab, like every character, but we don't get any 'boost' or slide out of it compared to a regular dash grab. But then, if you're already up close from the slide, why the need to dash?

Can we grab out of a bombslide up-throw fake out and connect the grab? Well so long as the opponent doesn't get hit too high, sure. We can get a grab after a JC throw or a Bombslide up-throw fake out.

But then, why would you want to waste the combo your bomb set up on a grab? Am I missing something here?
Eh, I dunno. I was just curious. This could particularly be useful with meteor bombs if there was at least a slight boost, but I guess it doesn't matter then.
 

Elessar

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The problem with this whole strat is that there is this wonderful AT called "shielding" which completely destroys your approach. I tried this yesterday actually vs a friend in offline and it only connected one third of the times. The other two thirds he just shielded the bomb and either jumped or spot dodged. He was Sonic, it didn't end well for me.
 

Himura Kenshin

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I don't find myself killing with smashes anymore unless it's a read. I'm starting to chase the opponent off the ledge more often, getting kills that way now that his nair has been buffed. Of course, it's different for each character, but many don't seem to know what to do. You can also use projectiles effectively when they're focused on recovering. Pull out a bomb, jump, throw, they airdodge, punish with nair.
 

Rizen

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I'm really missing bomb Fsmashes vs opponents with reflectors/grav pull/absorbs. Loosing Bomb Fsmash/Ftilt has also been a big nerf in certain MUs since the only thing we can do is Zair with a bomb in hand.
 

TNS|Quake

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I've been comparing the merits of zairing with the bomb in hand and zairing to drop it and then keep it in play but on the ground. I'm beginning to think the former is only useful for the obvious purpose of tethering to the ledge with your bomb loaded.

I feel like the extra landing lag on the zair with bomb in hand, coupled with the bomb smash and (especially) tilt nerfs, really make the former option the least advisable now. I think you're better off landing with less lag, a bomb that might still be active to cover your landing, and your whole moveset available immediately.
 

Elessar

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After playing extensively today I can say that I have found pivots to be the future. Pivots along with running away all day. I managed to take many matches from our top player and my strat was spamming a lot, camping, and a lot of pivots.
 

RancidLeaf

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@ Elessar Elessar , what MUs were you playing?
The "running away all day" sounds like such a hassle against characters with fast walking/running speeds. Even more so considering how hard it is to get back to the ground after committing to a jump (or being sent flying), and how slow Link is.
 

Elessar

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Was playing Sonic, D3, shulk, Ike, ganon, CF, Bowser, Mario, Peach, and one Diddy.

I switched to Sheik for greninja and Mk.

BTW, dair beats the hoohaa now.
 

cardboardowl

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Long post incoming

Tied for 17th in a 76 man tourney with link only.
http://austinsmash4.challonge.com/Arfi4Singles

Back in the social thread i said i was gonna keep you guys up to date with my performances with link. Tbh we played doubles early and I played like ass. We only won one set and we usually do quite well. I was in my head about the nerfs, since i didn't fully adjust to the lack of jab1 ****. I then played friendlies for about 2 hours against some real good players, switching between link and dk and shook it out and started playing way better. Got my mojo and confidence back. Played for about 8 hours today and I honestly feel really better about my link than ever now. I played very well and never switched to a secondary.

A quick(it's actually kind of long) break down if anyone cares

First match vs pikachu. Went battlefield, stopped quick attack with bombs, got two throws, built some damage, punished a misspaced quick attack with ftilt. Same thing, interrupted quick attack with upsmash for the other kill. Took me to smashville, did more of the same, won without losing a single stock

Second match, he played falcon, took me to final d. Got the first stock on me with grab to uair combo. got me to about 30 % when he tried to dash grab, and i jab canceled into f smash. Danced around the other stock, he got me to about 170%, i finished him at 110% when he rolled behind me and i read it with a dsmash. He switched to diddy and took me to smashville. I lost to the old hoohah, only getting his last stock to about 30%. I took him to lylat, got a kill on upsmash when he had to land once, but I ended up losing. I tried to spot dodge the banana throw and beat his grab, but lylat was tilting and instead of going past me, it landed right under my feet, i came out of the dodge, slipped, and got smashed.

He ended up taking 7th

Third match was against shiek twice. Battlefield both times. he was in my face constantly. Shielded and threw him to give myself some room, then relentless aggressive soft bombs arrows and boomerangs didn't let him touch me again. Killed him without going above 20%. We ducked it out for a while, he changed his aggression to be harder to punish, got me to 180% but couldnt land the kill on me. Got him with a utilt on a bad landing. Second set was similar, but he killed me with a bouncing fish when i tried to pull out a bomb around 130%. Took the set When i got aggressive with my aerials out of nowhere..

Fourth match was against yoshi. He couldn't deal with the bomb zoning, and got mad and tried to dash in, got fmsmashed. Got me once each set with a reverse aeriel b into the egg, and upsmashed me as i got out of it. Still took the set 2-0. All my kills were fsmashes or ftilts.2 of em were jab canceled.

5th match was against wario. I picked battlefield. Never played against a good wario before and was real surprised. Chomp is hard to deal with. Not only played defensive but also had to run away. Most of my other games I stood my ground hard. Got hit by the bike too many times and lost. Did you know wario has a kill throw? I didn't. Second match he tried to gimp me early, and I stage spiked him with my up b, made it back. I then got a few early combos in, knocked him off at 50%, chased off stage hard, and stage spiked again with a bair. I don't think he was ready for me to chase like that and missed the tech. He barely couldn't reach the ledge. Third match was SUPER CLOSE, and he bombed him at 68% on the ledge, he landed badly and I could have f-smashed for the win and gotten 13th place minimum, but a tilt came out instead. We danced a little while longer, and he farted on me at 50% and killed me. he tied for 13th.

All in all, here is generally how i played. Once I got into a position I liked, I refused to budge. I spot dodged, shielded, and rolled BACK, and moved back into the position i wanted asap. Kept throwing projectiles to force flawed approaches and punished accordingly. After I do that for a while, I go aggresive early, before they are at kill % to throw them off, go back to defense when they are in kill range to have them over commit and punish.


Got tgc next weekened with is about 200 people, and a smaller local afterward. I'll try to get matches recorded there.
TL:DR
Beat yoshi, pikachu, capt falcon, shiek, and wario. Don't roll and stand ground.

My only losses were to diddy, and wario (where I should have won but I ****ed my input)

I'm feeling good about link still. I think I can represent him well. I think it's ok.

Also how the **** do i deal with warios bite?
 

Dumbfire

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Long post incoming

Tied for 17th in a 76 man tourney with link only.
http://austinsmash4.challonge.com/Arfi4Singles
Good **** man! Hope to see matches.

More relevant results:
http://challonge.com/SBACSingles/standings?hc_location=ufi

Scizor got fourth at a local using all Link, losing to Mr.ConCon and DEHF, Luigi and Fox, beating even Kiraflax. We still have a standing, if small.

We should have some kind of tournament results thread by the way, to discuss tournaments in general too. Any mod for green-lighting? I have a good grasp of who is actively repping Link since if there's any footage of him online I've seen it.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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We should have some kind of tournament results thread by the way, to discuss tournaments in general too. Any mod for green-lighting? I have a good grasp of who is actively repping Link since if there's any footage of him online I've seen it.
Feel free to make it. It would be more fitting if these things had their own thread rather than scattered through the social, vid, and meta threads.
 

Batu

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Good **** man! Hope to see matches.

More relevant results:
http://challonge.com/SBACSingles/standings?hc_location=ufi

Scizor got fourth at a local using all Link, losing to Mr.ConCon and DEHF, Luigi and Fox, beating even Kiraflax. We still have a standing, if small.

We should have some kind of tournament results thread by the way, to discuss tournaments in general too. Any mod for green-lighting? I have a good grasp of who is actively repping Link since if there's any footage of him online I've seen it.
Those tournaments where pre or post patch?
 
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Drigo Toes

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Considering that new Spin Attack start up frame is 9 (10 in our back), and our Grab is 12 (regular [no tether] grab is between 6-9), it is possible to consider using Spin Attack as a GTFO move (as it was in melee)?
 

Dumbfire

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Considering that new Spin Attack start up frame is 9 (10 in our back), and our Grab is 12 (regular [no tether] grab is between 6-9), it is possible to consider using Spin Attack as a GTFO move (as it was in melee)?
It's generally too dangerous, I find. The uses I find for it are: 1. punishing, particularly a ledge get-up 2. catching an airdogde, especially after a Dthrow 3. a once-a-set tactic of cancelling an airdogde with Up B
 

FierceGaiety

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Not being able to jab1 into anything is really messing me up right now. I'm still catching up with all the new patch stuff but this one is by far the thing that sticks out most to me. I just can't seem to make close range fights go my way without that hit confirm.
 

8MAN

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Considering that new Spin Attack start up frame is 9 (10 in our back), and our Grab is 12 (regular [no tether] grab is between 6-9), it is possible to consider using Spin Attack as a GTFO move (as it was in melee)?
[nope] because unlike Melee, the weak hit does not semi-spike, and if the initial hit is sheilded, you WILL get punished.
 
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Elessar

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Probably not because unlike Melee, the weak hit does not semi-spike, and if the initial hit is sheilded, you'll probably get punished.
Erase the probably. Problem with using a grounded upB is that it's still too slow to start and should it get shielded you can just kiss either that stock or approximately 40% to 50% good bye depending on the MU and your current %. Too risky for extremely little reward.
 

Drigo Toes

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I know that... But I want to compare Spin Attack against Grab. Both are almost equally punishable, but Spin Attack is more rewarding at higher percentage. Considering an aereal with enough landing lag against our shield, I will consider a Spin Attack over a Grab in percentages over 60%...
 

MagmarFire

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I know that... But I want to compare Spin Attack against Grab. Both are almost equally punishable, but Spin Attack is more rewarding at higher percentage. Considering an aereal with enough landing lag against our shield, I will consider a Spin Attack over a Grab in percentages over 60%...
The most substantial difference between the Spin Attack and grabbing, though, is that the latter is safer on shield. Link's options against shields have become considerably riskier as of late, so you're probably better off just grabbing. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that grabbing has less endlag than the Spin Attack does (please correct me on this), which invariably means it's less punishable.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but would using Zair to follow up be a...somewhat decent substitute for Jab1 followups? Since it autocancels (until the next patch, that is...), it's theoretically better on shield and for linking up to kill moves. The main downside is not telegraphing it...
 
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8MAN

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The most substantial difference between the Spin Attack and grabbing, though, is that the latter is safer on shield. Link's options against shields have become considerably riskier as of late, so you're probably better off just grabbing. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that grabbing has less endlag than the Spin Attack does (please correct me on this), which invariably means it's less punishable.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but would using Zair to follow up be a...somewhat decent substitute for Jab1 followups? Since it autocancels (until the next patch, that is...), it's theoretically better on shield and for linking up to kill moves. The main downside is not telegraphing it...
One glaring problem is how zair doesn't connect with shorter characters vs jab1 which connected with everyone.
 

KenMeister

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So wait, did the knockback on upB increase, or just the % damage? I might consider that as a mixup/read option now if that's the case.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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(Quoting a post made in the social but replying here because of metagame implications.)
Also been looking into dropkick combos, if you guys remember those from brawl. They seem pretty reliable but I'm just working on ways to get the setup more consistent because just trying to time it is a B.
Yeah I was talking about this kind of thing in the xat the other day. The dropkick (i.e. SH then Bair and FF at the same time at the peak of your jump to make it so that only the first hit of Bair comes out which is then immediately cancelled allowing you to combo out of it) is still a thing in smash 4 only it's ever so slightly less reliable. It strings into a buffered turn around U-tilt very reliably, and since most of us use an a-stick, getting the U-tilt immediately after you begin to turn around is super easy. This string will work at any percent due to the first hit of bair having set knockback so it can be used to set up U-tilt kills at high percents or U-tilt combos at low percents.

I also went to some lengths talking about how good it is to SH Fair near the peak of your jump then FF at the peak of your jump such that the first hit of Fair comes out just before you touch the ground. Essentially, the first hit of Fair cancelled immediately has slightly less range than Jab 1, and it has almost as little lag as the old Jab 1, but it makes up for this with more shield stun. If you hit their shield with it at max range just before you land, it is safe in pretty much all circumstances (I mean, I can even powershield Gay's bomb throw OoS), which is similar to one way we used to use Jab 1. Unfortunately, it is not always safe if you miss entirely as some characters can dash in and punish your lag. Having said that, I am personally surprised out just how many dash grabs I can avoid with a buffered spotdodge, so more testing will be necessary.

Edit : Like, wth? If I space it so I just miss, then get a Fox to dash in as soon as I land and do a dash grab, a buffered spot-dodge appears to be avoiding this. That can't be right...
Edit 2: Ok so Fox can grab us, but jeez it's close. That should give you an idea of how safe it can be. So long as you buffer your defensive options, it can be quite difficult to punish. I'd imagine that many characters would simply be unable to punish the lag outright, rather they'd have to read your defensive option.

The point is, Link still has some aggressive tools at his disposal even with the loss of Jab 1 being one of them.


tl;dr- SH Fair FF so that the first hit comes out just as you land is super safe.
 
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8MAN

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but does Link have moves that can consistantly Ledge Deny? Similar to Mario and Megaman in this vid? I was thinking maybe jab1 to jab2 would work, and it might be possible to use this to set up for a dtilt spike.

video: http://youtu.be/MYZYfsWBqcg
 

Elessar

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but does Link have moves that can consistantly Ledge Deny? Similar to Mario and Megaman in this vid? I was thinking maybe jab1 to jab2 would work, and it might be possible to use this to set up for a dtilt spike.

video: http://youtu.be/MYZYfsWBqcg
Only problem is that the dtilt spike, if you can land it, doesn't kill until 300%. So you'll still be forces to edge guard instead of getting a kill. Might be better to go for an off stage bair for a stage spike.
 

FSK

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We might as well say that the only spike/meteor we have is dair. Dtilt does not work anymore for any practical purposes. I hit a dtilt on an olimar that was around 80%, he barely went down at all. Pre-patch that would have been a stock easily.
 
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8MAN

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Only problem is that the dtilt spike, if you can land it, doesn't kill until 300%. So you'll still be forces to edge guard instead of getting a kill. Might be better to go for an off stage bair for a stage spike.
Assuming if customs were legal, would Jab-Jab Zair drop meteor bomb be viable?
Power Bow (uncharged) as well, seeing as the arrow's trajectory drops directly in front of Link and inflicts some type of stun in place when connected.
Melee Boomerang (returning) could also extend the frames of vulnerability and could give us enough time to set up to pull out a meteor bomb, footstool, or Dair.
 
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Elessar

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Assuming if customs were legal, would Jab-Jab Zair drop meteor bomb be viable?
Power Bow (uncharged) as well, seeing as the arrow's trajectory drops directly in front of Link and inflicts some type of stun in place when connected.
Melee Boomerang (returning) could also extend the frames of vulnerability and could give us enough time to set up to pull out a meteor bomb, footstool, or Dair.
I don't like to assume. It's a bad idea to try and look for a solution where none can be found. Until customs are widely legalized it would be a good idea to just forget about them.
 

Naroghin

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Experimented some with dropkick strings. There is unfortunately nothing to aid timing form SH. Just gotta feel it and go. I was able to stay out of trouble by being ready to DJ if something when wrong (most players won't just let you jump at them) but it seemed to work ok when punishing landings or rolls. For FH it looks like we can use Air Dodge, Bair, or Nair (still not sure about Fair yet) to aid the timing but I haven't tested it as deep as to determine that we can't mess up the timing (i.e. bair comes out at the earliest just in time for a dropkick string) using these options.

I'm also still figuring out when it works to use these. As I don't have any human test subjects, it's hard to say when these will work, but I've had generally positive results using lvl9s. Of course, I'm being wary of how I get it to work. Sometimes the computer just stands there and lets you approach, which is obviously not a reliable piece of information, but there were times when I was able to use this to punish movement on the enemy's part or to cover a mistake on my part rather than just trying to move away. For instance, a few times I would whiff a Bair and then hit confirm on the first strike of a second Bair while the enemy was landing or recovering from cool down. Usually I would Utilt from here but I've also managed to turn>jab123 or turn>dsmash.

Also, late Nair seems to work for setups at lower percents while stale Nair can setup at later percents.

Still need extensive testing. I don't think I'm looking for true combos here or anything, just some viable setups to add to our bag of tricks. Anything will help at this point.
 
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