Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Dumbfire]

I sent Zane stuff to watch because I thought it was entertaining. I never explicitly said to him "PLEASE UPLOAD THESE" in fact when he asked me which replays belonged to me, I told him specifically "you don't have to upload them if it's a hassle".

But in all seriousness, I'm mostly laughing at the salty response over FOR GLORY footage. I personally think some of the ways I ended stocks were pretty funny, and actually are nice demonstrations of cool things Link is capable of.

Well given you are often making claims that are out there as far as general opinion on the boards is considered it would be nice to have serious footage of you of some kind -- almost necessary at this point to substantiate your claims with proof beyond theory crafting. Your extreme love of Nair was worrying me, especially falling with Nair -- you'd get shieldgrabbed or pivot Ftilted / Fsmashed all the time -- and that sort of thing is a habit which would then be as present in serious play as on FG:

Game 1:
0:07
0:10
0:37
0:40
0:43
1:02
1:08
1:13
1:29
1:41

Game 2:
0:41
0:48
0:54
0:56
1:03
1:22
1:24

Game 3:
0:30
0:49
1:35
1:56
1:59
2:12

You can't tell me that is just ******* around on FG can you?

Was that Nairing at 0:30 and 1:13 game 1 a bit of a joke or something for FG? Because I see an inordinate love of Nair often with Links which is unfounded. On shield it has 13 frames of lag and it has no range, it is severely punishable. You SH it all the time -- fine, just FG, but people do it often. It is not safe, it can just be dash grabbed on landing.

See, there's an issue there in practical gameplay that we'd like more of. You can keep going "lolFG" sure but you don't see Kirin doing that sort of thing on FG.

What I am saying it, it has left an impression, whether you intended it or not. If you want a proper impression please provide a serious set of some sort because people want to have an idea of the player behind the claims when he is making very daring ones.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well given you are often making claims that are out there as far as general opinion on the boards is considered it would be nice to have serious footage of you of some kind -- almost necessary at this point to substantiate your claims with proof beyond theory crafting. Your extreme love of Nair was worrying me, especially falling with Nair -- you'd get shieldgrabbed or pivot Ftilted / Fsmashed all the time -- and that sort of thing is a habit which would then be as present in serious play as on FG:

Game 1:
0:07
0:10
0:37
0:40
0:43
1:02
1:08
1:13
1:29
1:41

Game 2:
0:41
0:48
0:54
0:56
1:03
1:22
1:24

Game 3:
0:30
0:49
1:35
1:56
1:59
2:12

You can't tell me that is just ******* around on FG can you?

Was that Nairing at 0:30 and 1:13 game 1 a bit of a joke or something for FG? Because I see an inordinate love of Nair often with Links which is unfounded. On shield it has 13 frames of lag and it has no range, it is severely punishable. You SH it all the time -- fine, just FG, but people do it often. It is not safe, it can just be dash grabbed on landing.

See, there's an issue there in practical gameplay that we'd like more of. You can keep going "lolFG" sure but you don't see Kirin doing that sort of thing on FG.

What I am saying it, it has left an impression, whether you intended it or not. If you want a proper impression please provide a serious set of some sort because people want to have an idea of the player behind the claims when he is making very daring ones.

It's For Glory and the primary reason I'm N-airing a lot is because average player likes to roll inwards or DA a lot in neutral. You don't have to tell me that it's not safe. Usually I don't jump as much in serious games outside of going for followups/anti-airs given Link's aerials are generally terrible on shield. And furthermore I'm not KirinBlaze and he's put in way more time and mechanical skill into playing Link than I have. That's a given. If you want to drag his name into this, he actually agrees with me on most things concerning Link. You can't just casually ignore that when we're both of the opinion that Link's buffs were exactly what he needed to be a strong character.

 

[DarkDeity15]

It's For Glory and the primary reason I'm N-airing a lot is because average player likes to roll inwards or DA a lot in neutral. You don't have to tell me that it's not safe. Usually I don't jump as much in serious games outside of going for followups given Link's aerials are generally terrible on shield. And furthermore I'm not KirinBlaze and he's put in way more time and mechanical skill into playing Link than I have. That's a given. If you want to drag his name into this, he actually agrees with me on most things concerning Link. You can't just casually ignore that when we're both of the opinion that Link's buffs were exactly what he needed to be a strong character.

You forget that much of how Link zones in the neutral consists of hops, especially with items, Zair and Fair since they actually are very safe on shield if spaced well. Zair is especially useful for poking at mid-range as well and can stuff out all kinds of approaches (especially fade-back Zairs). Well spaced Zairs are even safe on most counters, so they can be baited out for free punishes. Even Bair can be safe on shield if you fade back, and can be made even safer by dropping a bomb at the end of the move. Empty hops/tomahawks are also very valuable in neutral for obvious reasons. So yeah.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You forget that much of how Link zones in the neutral consists of hops, especially with items, Zair and Fair since they actually are very safe on shield if spaced well. Zair is especially useful for poking at mid-range as well and can stuff out all kinds of approaches (especially fade-back Zairs). Well spaced Zairs are even safe on most counters, so they can be baited out for free punishes. Even Bair can be safe on shield if you fade back, and can be made even safer by dropping a bomb at the end of the move. Empty hops/tomahawks are also very valuable in neutral for obvious reasons. So yeah.

I know I don't use Bombs nearly enough for shield pressure. Z-air is decent, but less useful if your opponent is either really short or runs really fast, or both given the hitbox is kinda narrow and you can't actively fastfall it to get it lower to the ground.

F-air definitely can be safe on shield agreed, but this is conditional as Link does not have a lot of air control. I do like empty hop grabs though.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I was gonna troll and say how OP Link is but then I felt disgusted with myself at the thought of something as ridiculous as that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link isn't OP as long as his grab is really punishable and his only real midrange tool that beats reaction time that isn't item tossing. But he's pretty darn good given it's now actually very rewarding. It's why ZSS works.

 

[Elessar]

I'm having such a blast reading about how high tier Link is and how amazing his moves are from people who:

a) Don't attend offline tourneys.
b) Have never placed at an offline tourney.
c) Play exclusively FG wifail.
d) Have no concept of the fundamental mechanics of smash (things like DI, move staling, etc).

While I don't necessarily mean anyone in specific, I just had to point out how much I love reading about amazing combos like nair to sweepspot dair (someone actually made that comment once).

As someone said once, we're extremely competitively minded here at the Link boards. We don't care about friendlies, we don't care about FG, we don't care about anything that isn't a tournament. You can tell us about it when you talk about meta and MUs (after all, we form, test, and so forth in friendlies) but don't expect your word to be taken at face value. Unless your name appears in the tournament placings thread, your word (whoever you are) will be taken with a ton of salt and probably discarded. Heck, even if you fulfill that criteria your word will still not be taken at face value (ex: what happened to my comment on the Sonic MU).

We're a competitive focused community. We welcome everyone and will teach everyone, but we don't allow misinformation and baseless theorycrafting in our meta threads. Essentially, if you're casual, welcome, learn from us, hang out with us on Social, just don't get pissed when we don't take your FG strats seriously.

 

[Linkmario00]

ZSS works because she has Amazing frame data and mobility and she can use them for fantastic combo out of her Dthrow while we get like one attack and a pretty good position. No one is saying Link sucks, but he certainly isn't high tier. He's probably a solid mid tier but for reaching the bottom of hight tier he needs more tools for CQC (for example, a Link with jab cancel+grab can be at the bottom of high tier for me). We got buffed, yeah, but we need an Ike treatment for being high tier (I found Ike an low-high tier post 1.0.8). MUs got certainly better with the buffs, yeah. Take Fox for example. He can no long force us o approach with laser and our Dthrow combos work pretty well on him due to him being the fastes faller in the game. But he still has the speed to avoid our projectiles and bodies us at CQC, so the MU is still heavily in his favor (at least a 40:60, more probably a 35:65. I don't think it's still a 30:70 for the reasons above).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are you sure it was N-air to sweetspot D-air? Because if you reverse that string, it has the potential to true combo, hilariously enough.

ZSS works because she has Amazing frame data and mobility and she can use them for fantastic combo out of her Dthrow while we get like one attack and a pretty good position. No one is saying Link sucks, but he certainly isn't high tier. He's probably a solid mid tier but for reaching the bottom of hight tier he needs more tools for CQC (for example, a Link with jab cancel+grab can be at the bottom of high tier for me). We got buffed, yeah, but we need an Ike treatment for being high tier (I found Ike an low-high tier post 1.0.8). MUs got certainly better with the buffs, yeah. Take Fox for example. He can no long force us o approach with laser and our Dthrow combos work pretty well on him due to him being the fastes faller in the game. But he still has the speed to avoid our projectiles and bodies us at CQC, so the MU is still heavily in his favor (at least a 40:60, more probably a 35:65. I don't think it's still a 30:70 for the reasons above).

ZSS's "fantastic combo" also depends on a fairly specific percent range. And once you're out of that range, she actually has a lot of trouble killing you.

Also you can Jab cancel -> stuff off Jab 2 just fine. Be ready to read jumps sometimes.

Also who needs projectiles against Fox? Also Fox is actually not very good at punishing the Gale unless he perfect shields it in relatively close range, given he doesn't have much air mobility and reflecting it does no damage. Furthermore he gets mauled if he touches a shield with anything that isn't grab or lasers, and he's not very good at pressuring Link's recovery. Don't let him get close by just grabbing in neutral (not to mention a few D-tilts, which are MUCH better in this matchup). He'll be forced to play a lot more carefully once he realizes that he has to actually guess around Link's grab which WILL kill him. Link if anything probably wins this matchup slightly due to how much harder it is for Fox to secure the KO (techchase setups are very position or % dependent, does not have many clean air juggles for killing, has virtually no edgeguard game, and can't kill with throws). It's not further in Link's favor because grab is still heavily punishable on whiff, but you're probably underestimating just how much it changes the neutral game for Fox. Not to mention Link's faster D-tilt which also has easy KO confirms and is also safe on block. Fox does much worse than most characters baiting Link's grab with jumps as he does not move fast horizontally in the air,

 

[FSK]

@ A2ZOMG please tell that you have some offline tournament experience? You have faced off against notable opponents offline right?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG please tell that you have some offline tournament experience? You have faced off against notable opponents offline right?

A little bit. But I don't know people in my own area that well. Furthermore I've only gone Ganon in tournament thus far.

 

[FSK]

A little bit. But I don't know people in my own area that well. Furthermore I've only gone Ganon in tournament thus far.

So what is the basis of what you are saying in this thread? If you are not basing yourself on tournament experience, then what?

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

What in the world is going on in here...?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So what is the basis of what you are saying in this thread? If you are not basing yourself on tournament experience, then what?

Better question, WHY are people taking For Glory footage seriously?

But to answer your question, I base things on observation. I watch videos of different levels of play, experiment with things at home, and in friendlies. It's generally extremely difficult for me to travel to tournaments given most of the popular venues aren't very close to home where I'm at.

 

[Dumbfire]

Ah yes Link clearly has difficulty only with about three characters. Let's forget ZSS or CF or Yoshi, for instance. A2ZOMG knows. Maybe there's some Links that faced them in tournament, and tend to think the opposite -- like, @link7, @ Catana , @DJTHED, @Huggles828, @Blessed Spartan, @Vonzar the Soulrender, @Zerker, @Fox Is Openly Deceptive, me -- but hey I GUESS WE'RE ALL JUST *******, A2 KNOWS ITS JUST A FINE MU FOR LINK ITLL GO FINE, HE KNOWS BASED ON "OBSERVATION". We're just playing the MU wrong like Scizor, he "doesn't know how to space against fireballs", yes that's it.

 

[incrediblej]

Honestly Neutral air is more of a tink thing

 

[FSK]

Better question, WHY are people taking For Glory footage seriously?

But to answer your question, I base things on observation. I watch videos of different levels of play, experiment with things at home, and in friendlies. It's generally extremely difficult for me to travel to tournaments given most of the popular venues aren't very close to home where I'm at.

That was a convoluted way of saying nothing. In your future post please add a disclaimer at top that it's 100% theorycrafting and you are too lazy to go to tournaments and try the things out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ah yes Link clearly has difficulty only with about three characters. Let's forget ZSS or CF or Yoshi, for instance. A2ZOMG knows. Maybe there's some Links that faced them in tournament, and tend to think the opposite -- like, @link7, @ Catana , @DJTHED, @Huggles828, @Vonzar the Soulrender, @Zerker, @Fox Is Openly Deceptive, me -- but hey I GUESS WE'RE ALL JUST *******, A2 KNOWS ITS JUST A FINE MU FOR LINK ITLL GO FINE, HE KNOWS BASED ON "OBSERVATION". We're just playing the MU wrong like Scizor, he "doesn't know how to space against fireballs", yes that's it.

Haven't seen a lot of this matchup personally, but really. Don't get grabbed around like 60-80% and it's a lot harder for ZSS to kill you. She also can't really edgeguard Link either.

And wtf, Link always did pretty good against Falcon in this game. He straight up wins it now especially since Falcon has a much harder time killing vertically with his U-air, and given Falcon gets bodied by both Link's grab game AND edgeguards.

Also I'm pretty certain you have Yoshi massively overrated somewhere. He's pretty unremarkable, frankly once you just realize he doesn't really have any good spacing tools in neutral besides his slow F-air, and also can't really kill you if you never overcommit. Not simply my opinion here, that's stuff Yoshi mains on Smashboards have been talking about for a while.

And Scizor definitely made a lot of mistakes against Zenyou, and plus as I stated from that set, it was really old and Scizor didn't have the benefit of a rewarding grab game to force respect in that matchup. Mario by design actually has pretty poor tools for abusing Link's normally limited midrange options, but previously that hardly mattered when Link's grab game was a joke. Which it isn't now.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I know I don't use Bombs nearly enough for shield pressure. Z-air is decent, but less useful if your opponent is either really short or runs really fast, or both given the hitbox is kinda narrow and you can't actively fastfall it to get it lower to the ground.

F-air definitely can be safe on shield agreed, but this is conditional as Link does not have a lot of air control. I do like empty hop grabs though.

Fairs (to where only the 1st hit comes out) can be used to space around a bit as well because they have minimal landing lag too though, but I've yet to see anyone really use it for that reason very much. Probably because it can be punishable vs characters who are quick or have ranged grabs, but I think it should be utilized for spacing more. 1st-hit-Fair can also set up grabs at early % and is effective at knocking people at or off the ledge to lead into edge guards (and can be used to ledge guard). 1st-hits are also a very viable option after baiting something with an empty hop.

Zair is still very useful against short characters since all you really need to do to hit them while grounded is to time the Zair as you are falling. It also can still be great at stopping their aerial approaches if you're good at spacing.

 

[Catana]

Haven't seen a lot of this matchup personally, but really. Don't get grabbed around like 60-80% and it's a lot harder for ZSS to kill you. She also can't really edgeguard Link either.

And wtf, Link always did pretty good against Falcon in this game. He straight up wins it now especially since Falcon has a much harder time killing vertically with his U-air, and given Falcon gets bodied by both Link's grab game AND edgeguards.

Also I'm pretty certain you have Yoshi massively overrated somewhere. He's pretty unremarkable, frankly once you just realize he doesn't really have any good spacing tools in neutral besides his slow F-air, and also can't really kill you if you never overcommit. Not simply my opinion here, that's stuff Yoshi mains on Smashboards have been talking about for a while.

And Scizor definitely made a lot of mistakes against Zenyou, and plus as I stated from that set, it was really old and Scizor didn't have the benefit of a rewarding grab game to force respect in that matchup. Mario by design actually has pretty poor tools for abusing Link's normally limited midrange options, but previously that hardly mattered when Link's grab game was a joke. Which it isn't now.

Link good against Falcon because Falcon has a harder time killing with his Uair? Because thats Falcon's main and only killing move? And how does Falcon get bodied by Link's grab game when his grab is so slow falcon can easily punish the startup of it? Please elaborate this scrub logic.

You assume way too much for any of your baseless information to be anywhere close to educational for everyone, if you're posting this solely for the sake of finding it entertaining to share your thoughts, then you're simply a selfish **** and cancer to this community. You're an idiot talking like he's smart, much like how many bad people think they are good.

Also I'm pretty certain you have Link massively overrated somewhere. He's pretty unremarkable, frankly once you just realize he cant really do much in neutral when your opponent knows how to shield. Not simply my opinion here, but that's stuff Link mains on Smashboards have been talking about for a while.

 

[Dumbfire]

Haven't seen a lot of this matchup personally, but really. Don't get grabbed around like 60-80% and it's a lot harder for ZSS to kill you. She also can't really edgeguard Link either.

And wtf, Link always did pretty good against Falcon in this game. He straight up wins it now especially since Falcon has a much harder time killing vertically with his U-air, and given Falcon gets bodied by both Link's grab game AND edgeguards.

Also I'm pretty certain you have Yoshi massively overrated somewhere. He's pretty unremarkable, frankly once you just realize he doesn't really have any good spacing tools in neutral besides his slow F-air, and also can't really kill you if you never overcommit. Not simply my opinion here, that's stuff Yoshi mains on Smashboards have been talking about for a while.

And Scizor definitely made a lot of mistakes against Zenyou, and plus as I stated from that set, it was really old and Scizor didn't have the benefit of a rewarding grab game to force respect in that matchup. Mario by design actually has pretty poor tools for abusing Link's normally limited midrange options, but previously that hardly mattered when Link's grab game was a joke. Which it isn't now.

Yes, like that CF Cat lost to until he switched to his secondary MK with whom he consistently 2-stocks him in tournament. Maybe MK beats CF 70 - 30 so that's why it went better? Yes, like that scrub Yoshi teampartner of Mr-R here that Cat and I lose to with Link but who lost to Cat's MK last time. I guess all our tournament experiences are not valid because we're ******* who don't play the MU well we wreck Falcon.

Falcon is fast and safe. Link is slow and unsafe. Put 1 and 2 together. It's funny how you have nothing to say againt ZSS except it's "harder" for her to kill you after a certain percent. It's not like she can't read out of her Dthrow with Fair and Uair. It's not like there are numerous other kill set-ups. It's not like she still wrecks damage 10 times faster it doesn't even matter. I's not like her framedata is 10 times better. It's not like she can easily get around our spam due to great mobility.

It's funny you should mention trouble killing and not overcommiting because I was in fact timed out by a Yoshi not too long ago -- a Yoshi who beat Cat's Link before. He still wins, because he can still outcamp us with eggs, still has better framadata, still racks damage better, can still gimp us if not for the kill then for damage.

But what's that tourney experience when you have "observation" not backed up by any evidence whatsoever, in character rankings or tournament results or experience from players who actually frequent tournaments with the character?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Are you sure it was N-air to sweetspot D-air? Because if you reverse that string, it has the potential to true combo, hilariously enough.


ZSS's "fantastic combo" also depends on a fairly specific percent range. And once you're out of that range, she actually has a lot of trouble killing you.

Also you can Jab cancel -> stuff off Jab 2 just fine. Be ready to read jumps sometimes.

Also who needs projectiles against Fox? Also Fox is actually not very good at punishing the Gale unless he perfect shields it in relatively close range, given he doesn't have much air mobility and reflecting it does no damage. Furthermore he gets mauled if he touches a shield with anything that isn't grab or lasers, and he's not very good at pressuring Link's recovery. Don't let him get close by just grabbing in neutral (not to mention a few D-tilts, which are MUCH better in this matchup). He'll be forced to play a lot more carefully once he realizes that he has to actually guess around Link's grab which WILL kill him. Link if anything probably wins this matchup slightly due to how much harder it is for Fox to secure the KO (techchase setups are very position or % dependent, does not have many clean air juggles for killing, has virtually no edgeguard game, and can't kill with throws). It's not further in Link's favor because grab is still heavily punishable on whiff, but you're probably underestimating just how much it changes the neutral game for Fox. Not to mention Link's faster D-tilt which also has easy KO confirms and is also safe on block. Fox does much worse than most characters baiting Link's grab with jumps as he does not move fast horizontally in the air,

Woah, what? I get that everyone has to be more careful now about approaching Link with his new grab game, but these buffs still are not enough to have the Fox MU be in his favor. He still gets hit a lot, is combo food, and Fox has endless kill set-ups on Link. Don't know where you got that. We still get obliterated in CQC like everyone is saying as well, and the same can be said about most other decent tier rush-down characters.

I'll take everyone else's side and say that Link is not high tier. He's in the top portion of mid tier at best. Even if Link did have the potential to be high tier, he has no representation and is hard to play at a high level, which most people don't like. The simple fact that he is combo food alone will likely keep him out of the high tiers.

 

[Rizen]

Everyone already knows my thoughts on the subject from the last 2 times someone pulled this 'Link is high tier...' stuff.

 

[KenMeister]

I'm no Link main, but even I know the grab buff is being blown way out of proportion. Even with its follow ups, as long as it has poor start up (16 framessssss) it'll always be punished in reaction assuming the player isn't doing some clever mixup.

 

[Linkmario00]

I'm no Link main, but even I know the grab buff is being blown way out of proportion. Even with its follow ups, as long as it has poor start up (16 framessssss) it'll always be punished in reaction assuming the player isn't doing some clever mixup.

Actually it's 12 frames if I'm correct, ZSS grab is 16 I think.

 

[Catana]

Samus and ZSS are tied for the slowest grabs in the game with 16 frames, Link's dash grab has 14 frames of startup, his neutral grab 12 and his pivot grab 15.

 

[KenMeister]

Ah, alright, I guess ZSS was where I got mixed up then, thanks for the elaboration guys. The point being, though, is it's still slow as frick. lol

 

[DarkDeity15]

Does anyone remember if Link's Dair has priority over Rasalina's Uair or not? I feel like discussing the Rosalina MU, so that may be important to know.

 

[Elessar]

I love how @ A2ZOMG says that the Yoshi mains are saying this at Smashboards as if that's suppossed to trump what the Link mains are also saying. I read that a lot here, people coming and claiming that what other boards are saying is right and therefore we are wrong. As if they have more credibility than us on account of them not being Link mains, so clearly they are more objective.

I really want to understand this logic. If the Link Boards say that Link's MU vs Yoshi isn't in Link's favor, and the Yoshi Boards say otherwise, why does the Yoshi board argument instantly trump ours? I agree that only one can be right, but why is it immediately assumed that it's never us? I know we're trolls and just all around a-holes, but that doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.

Also, A2ZOMG, your "observations" on the Fox, ZSS, and CF Mus are all wrong from a purely empirical, concrete, hands on experience point of view. I'm sorry, but projectiles lose vs Fox, and Fox when played well beats Link in CQC every day of the week. ZSS will combo you horribly into kill percentages, as will CF. Also, these 3 chars have guaranteed kill setups, Link doesn't have anything guaranteed, period. It's good to know when you win because your character is helping you win, and when you win because you're a superior player. If people learned how to differentiate this we'd all be a whole lot better off.

 

[Dumbfire]

As someone who barely visits tournaments and doesn't use Link in them, let me give you detailed MU advice

 

[Drigo Toes]

Does anyone remember if Link's Dair has priority over Rasalina's Uair or not? I feel like discussing the Rosalina MU, so that may be important to know.

Rosalina Uair >> Link's Dair

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I'm having such a blast reading about how high tier Link is and how amazing his moves are from people who:

a) Don't attend offline tourneys.
b) Have never placed at an offline tourney.
c) Play exclusively FG wifail.
d) Have no concept of the fundamental mechanics of smash (things like DI, move staling, etc).

While I don't necessarily mean anyone in specific, I just had to point out how much I love reading about amazing combos like nair to sweepspot dair (someone actually made that comment once).

As someone said once, we're extremely competitively minded here at the Link boards. We don't care about friendlies, we don't care about FG, we don't care about anything that isn't a tournament. You can tell us about it when you talk about meta and MUs (after all, we form, test, and so forth in friendlies) but don't expect your word to be taken at face value. Unless your name appears in the tournament placings thread, your word (whoever you are) will be taken with a ton of salt and probably discarded. Heck, even if you fulfill that criteria your word will still not be taken at face value (ex: what happened to my comment on the Sonic MU).

We're a competitive focused community. We welcome everyone and will teach everyone, but we don't allow misinformation and baseless theorycrafting in our meta threads. Essentially, if you're casual, welcome, learn from us, hang out with us on Social, just don't get pissed when we don't take your FG strats seriously.

Sooooooooooo...

You don't Nair to sweetspot Dair...

 

[Elessar]

Rosalina Uair >> Link's Dair

Actually, iirc it depends on timing now. Like, you can beat it if you put it out before she does. As in, if you start before she does you beat it, but if both do it at the same time hers overrides ours.

 

[KenMeister]

I feel Link can at least do....something to Falcon since he can wall him a lot easier than other top tiers since his approach is a lot more linear and he's braindead easy to edge guard with nair, but the fact that Falcon can poop on Link in disadvantage alone without any real risk is enough to sway the MU out of Link's favor, and mobility can be a bit annoying, but the fact he can't immediately shield out of a dash could mean something. Fox and ZSS still sucks for Link, especially Fox, as it's the one MU I seriously wish I had better frame data. Lol

 

[DarkDeity15]

I feel Link can at least do....something to Falcon since he can wall him a lot easier than other top tiers since his approach is a lot more linear and he's braindead easy to edge guard with nair, but the fact that Falcon can poop on Link in disadvantage alone without any real risk is enough to sway the MU out of Link's favor, and mobility can be a bit annoying, but the fact he can't immediately shield out of a dash could mean something. Fox and ZSS still sucks for Link, especially Fox, as it's the one MU I seriously wish I had better frame data. Lol

True dat. If our Nair was like 4 frames or less, that alone would do us wonders. Sometimes I get wailed on with moves like Shiek's Ftilt, Fox's Utilt, etc. and there's really not much Link can do to escape besides DI and air dodges, which can both be read and exploited hard.

Edit: Who banned me from Xat? I was just messin around a little...

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

That's two down in two days, I'll swing by xat to have a look.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm no Link main, but even I know the grab buff is being blown way out of proportion. Even with its follow ups, as long as it has poor start up (16 framessssss) it'll always be punished in reaction assuming the player isn't doing some clever mixup.

Link's grab is 12 frames. It's waaaaay better than ZSS's grab in neutral and actually fast enough to beat reaction time and force people to guess.

 

[DUKEL]

Oh gosh guys. All I did was go to sleep. Now there's some weird argument going on.

The ZSS matchup is obviously in ZSS's favor. It's not unwinnable, but it is a difficult matchup that you'll need to practice regularly in order to beat one in tournament.

Nair beats a lot of Falcon's options, but it comes out to slow for it to matter most of the time. I honestly believe that soft tossing and dropping bombs onstage in general helps our matchup significantly. Falcon has a lot of tools and combos us too easily, so the matchup should be in his favor. But it isn't. Why? Because every Falcon plays the same. His meta sucks so much that a matchup that should be 60-40 for him is closer to 55-45 in ours, simply because we know exactly what he's going to do. Are we offstage? He's going to dair, utilt, or knee (and miss, because we know its coming), and jab to cover our getups (we getup with fair and we good). Onstage? Dash grab or dash attack, to up airs all day, with him occasionally (read: at least 3 times a stock) whiffing/hitting a knee. Occasionally he'll charge an fsmash and hope we run into it. While that does work, if we expect that fighting strategy, because that's what every falcon does, we should easily win the matchup in tournament and otherwise. Falcon has no neutral game at the moment. We destroy him in the neutral game. Until his meta improves for him to actually have a neutral game, we should beat him. We'll have to play smarter than him and think while we play, unlike the falcon who will play mindlessly, but we'll still win.

Also, reddit thought that our up-b was an excellent OoS option, and that it came out frame 4. The smash bros reddit is so f****** ignorant.

 

[Linkmario00]

Yeah I don't really think we lose the Falcon MU so badly after all. Bombs stop a lot of his approachs and he's generally pretty linear in neutral and not difficult to predict. We can abuse his bad recovery, too. And generally he tends to approach from the ground making him more predictable. We still lose because his advantage is great and we don't have many tools to capitalise in his bad disadvantage, but it's at worse a 40:60, could also be a 45:55 for me but I don't want to be too optimistic

 

[smokebomb12]

I need help understanding Link's Zair. I was watching stuff and it seems you guys like to throw out Zair but for me it is just slow and laggy. I mean I would like an explanation when I need to use Zair, because in my opinion, Zair is only used for recovering and making sure you bombdrop. just asking.

Oh gosh guys. All I did was go to sleep. Now there's some weird argument going on.

The ZSS matchup is obviously in ZSS's favor. It's not unwinnable, but it is a difficult matchup that you'll need to practice regularly in order to beat one in tournament.

Nair beats a lot of Falcon's options, but it comes out to slow for it to matter most of the time. I honestly believe that soft tossing and dropping bombs onstage in general helps our matchup significantly. Falcon has a lot of tools and combos us too easily, so the matchup should be in his favor. But it isn't. Why? Because every Falcon plays the same. His meta sucks so much that a matchup that should be 60-40 for him is closer to 55-45 in ours, simply because we know exactly what he's going to do. Are we offstage? He's going to dair, utilt, or knee (and miss, because we know its coming), and jab to cover our getups (we getup with fair and we good). Onstage? Dash grab or dash attack, to up airs all day, with him occasionally (read: at least 3 times a stock) whiffing/hitting a knee. Occasionally he'll charge an fsmash and hope we run into it. While that does work, if we expect that fighting strategy, because that's what every falcon does, we should easily win the matchup in tournament and otherwise. Falcon has no neutral game at the moment. We destroy him in the neutral game. Until his meta improves for him to actually have a neutral game, we should beat him. We'll have to play smarter than him and think while we play, unlike the falcon who will play mindlessly, but we'll still win.

Also, reddit thought that our up-b was an excellent OoS option, and that it came out frame 4. The smash bros reddit is so f****** ignorant.

Very interesting to read. But you have to remember that Captain falcon is a character meant to break through walls with his soupier speed and attacks. A thing we need to learn is to quickly switch to a offensive play style rather a defensive. I fought a falcon earlier today and I do agree they all do the same thing, but some players use Falcons strengths better than others obviously. But very interesting.