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Life is but a Moment, a Single Grain of Sand: Ness Survival Tips and Discussion

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Discussion regarding recovery, PK ThunderBarrier, new PK Flash insurance mechanic, and generally staying in the fight as long as a 13-year-old psychic kid can.

Let's show that Lucas punk how a real PSI warrior tanks hits in the battlefield!
 

Mr.Jackpot

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
1,727
Location
WA
People need to learn the trajectories and distance of PKT2. It's a versatile move but half of the players I see blast in the general direction of the stage and go mile over the ledge and into the stage almost every time. I haven't quite got the Project M timing down yet but I know there's a way to shoot yourself in the direction you started guiding your PKT like this, it's throws people off pretty hard but don't use it when they expect it or the PKT is at high risk of getting interrupted.

PSI Magnet stalls in the air and can be used for a quick turnaround if you're facing backwards and trying to grab the ledge with a double jump. It's much better for offense though.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Backwards PKT2 is pretty is in 2.5. I'm not sure if he falls slower or if PKT travels faster, but it's pretty easy to do either way.

Also I figure I should post this here too



An important part of PKT2: Where you travel is NOT dictated by the direction PKT1 is traveling in, but instead by where on Ness's body the PKT hits.
 

roymaster803

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
144
Location
South Carolina
Any chance we could get a pic that shows where he would go and where he has to be hit? Also I love those shapes, never thought of doing stuff like that.
 

Little Nemo

The Dream Master
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
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357
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Moses Lake, WA
NNID
LockableFaceman
I understand that. But how could you possibly get that to work without it being set up? It's situational to a point where I can't think of a use for it except catching yourself after being meteored/spiked while recovering.

Edit: Which is actually super nice I guess.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
The whole of PKT1 becomes unowned, so he can still be hit by the bolt.

That Momentum Stacking though.

It makes PKT1 much more viable as a projectile where the opponent getting past it and going to Ness is GG's otherwise.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
I feel the horizontal mobility of Ness when he's in freefall matched with the lack of real recovery lag makes overshooting the ledge WAY safer. At the same time, Ness has magnet hands when it comes to grabbing the ledge and its pretty easy to catch it. Sweetspotting it is entirely different though. What are people's experiences with sweetspotting the ledge?
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Pretty easy as long as you aim your body anywhere remotely near its vicinity.

An important part of Ness's DJ to remember is that the forward and backward variations are animation based jumps that do effect Ness's movement regardless of input left or right after the jump has started. So DJ backward then weave forward, for example, is a very different recovery option than DJ forward.
 

rifall

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
52
Location
PacificWest
I've been working on getting down PKT2 as hard as I can since 2.5's release. As a Ness player, hard main on Ness for P:M, I'd have to say PKT2 is your most valuable survival skill and definitely the thing to learn if you're going to main Ness. It's comprable to Fox's shine or Pikachu's tailspike. If you don't/can't learn it, don't plan on anybody taking you seriously.

Now onto what I came here to talk about. PKT2 is a serious pain to get used to, especially after a year of playing wtih it in 2.1. It feels very off if you try to use 2.1 timing, which is why more often than not I have not been able to sweetspot anything since the release of 2.5.

I've been sick the last few days, so the soonest I'll be able to really get down to business is tomorrow, the 5th.

PK Thunder now gives you some static protection, much like Snake's Up-B. But, sadly, it isn't that strong. It's nothing compared to a half-decently timed bair from most characters. I'd think it's safe to say, never try to use/abuse/depend on these protections.

Speaking of half-decently timed bairs, just avoid them at all cost. Ness should never be PK thundering right off the edge when his opponent is right there (or on stage period). I've made this mistake so many damn times, and getting lucky. I remember thinking more than a dozen times in one night "I shouldn't be alive".

If you can go high before using PK Thunder, that's great. PKT2 can now act even MORE quickly after landing at the right angle to help keep Ness safe. It's been given even more distance than before, so it's safe to say, if you're opponent can't jump high, it's pretty safe to space this correctly and Thunder down. Do your absolutely freekin darndest to gain back middle ground. Otherwise, you're screwed even if you land.

Playing against spacies is the worst. It still feels like Ness is seriously limited when dealing with these, even with his slight speed boost. Angled fsmashes, uthrow chains, and yoyo combos really help, but they're very predictable in my book, and all 3 spacies can get out of these rather well and pretty much break any combo with a good shine.

Especially against spacies (in case is wasn't common knowledge, which it should be) get used to being extra damn patient, and hold that shield a little longer when being shffled against. 99% of the time, they WILL shffl into Shine with only 2 frames between active hit boxes. Shield->jump->nair and Shield->grab will never work against these.

Thankfully, like peach, nair can be useful for getting out of many offensive patterns from a lot of characters. Too bad Ness's hitboxes don't reach that far. Not by a mile.

Yeah, I'm definitely daydreaming, thinking I know what I'm talking about. But if there's any hope for Ness players, I think we can all appreciate input from any players who have taken any tournament (that has been advertised and posted on smashboards).
 

red13god

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Arkansas
With the new longer tail, I like curving the pk thunder around me while recovering to keep me safe from non-projectile-wielding opponents. Occasionally they'll get hit/stunned by the tail and you can quickly loop around and get them with PKT2 .
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
What do you mean, red13? Like, passing the pk thunder in front of you, and then hitting your butt/back?
 

red13god

Smash Rookie
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Aug 28, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Arkansas
exactly. I mean it all depends from where you're recovering from (and fairly risky) But connecting that PKT2 with your stunned opponent feels incredibly satisfying
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
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Hey guys, I've noticed some inconsistencies in how Ness's recovery behaves when sliding against walls. In melee this was a huge problem (I would all it a problem) in that Ness's recovery was inconsistent...sometimes you would slide along the side of FD and catch teh ledge and other times you would bounce off it or overshoot it in a way that the angle you slide against puts you too far from the ledge for you to grab it.

I've noticed this issue in PM on certain stages. For example, on FD if i hit myself when Im close to the side, i almost always recover, but If i hit myself on the side of wario ware or Yoshi's island brawl, the wall will eat some of my momentum if i dont hit myself perfectly, instead of translating my momentum against the wall into an upward trajectory.

Has anyone else felt these problems, and on what stages and in what ways do they manifest?
 

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
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Sakazaki Dojo
Hey guys, I've noticed some inconsistencies in how Ness's recovery behaves when sliding against walls. In melee this was a huge problem (I would all it a problem) in that Ness's recovery was inconsistent...sometimes you would slide along the side of FD and catch teh ledge and other times you would bounce off it or overshoot it in a way that the angle you slide against puts you too far from the ledge for you to grab it.

I've noticed this issue in PM on certain stages. For example, on FD if i hit myself when Im close to the side, i almost always recover, but If i hit myself on the side of wario ware or Yoshi's island brawl, the wall will eat some of my momentum if i dont hit myself perfectly, instead of translating my momentum against the wall into an upward trajectory.

Has anyone else felt these problems, and on what stages and in what ways do they manifest?
That's actually the first instance I've heard of PKT2 manifesting on other stages. I'll look into it throughout the week and post my feedback.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
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Just a note: I felt it yesterday on Melee Yoshi's island. Just jump off the side and upb yourself at an angle so that your going into the wall. You'll see that on an FD, you would have slid up but here it eats up your vertical momentum.

Edit:
or rather it does not translate youre horizontal momentum into vertical momentum.
 

Bryonato

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I see your point but I suppose I don't really see it as too much of a problem. I think the momentum loss isn't really noticeable on FD because you're not really sliding for that long. But I mean if you upB into a wall it makes sense to me at least that you would lose momentum. Plus when you do do that the game allows you to retain your diagonal trajectory as soon as you pass the ledge which I prefer rather than going straight up. Just my opinion.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
Messages
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Here's why it matters.
Imagine your hugging the wall low on the left side of Yoshi's island. And you swing your up b around you but you hit yourself at your 8 o clock position. You'll only slide up the wall (made up measurement) 4 feet and miss the edge. Now imagine on FD, same situation, you hit yourself at your 8 o clock and your body slides up the side to bring you up the wall 6 feet and you catch the edge.

That's the problem I'm having. I dont know if im imagining it or if PKT2 actually reacts differently on some maps.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
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Halifax, NS
Idk if you want a critique or anything, but I'd just suggest learning DJC, it will make your Ness much better than it already seems. also teach your friends how to edgeguard Ness :p everyone seems to let him back on too often, its silly.

btw, mind if i add those to the video thread?
 

k9.

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
512
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Arizona
I don't mind at all, and it's different when you play me. Even wobbles and silly kyle both don't kill me when i am getting on stage.

Yea i really need to start DJC i just forget that i can do it XD Thanks man

You would have to play me to understand.
 

Bryonato

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Yea honestly k9 you're already doing so much without DJC that if you added all that to your arsenal you'd be looking pretty unstoppable.
 

k9.

Smash Ace
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Alright ill start placing it in my arsenal. Thanks guys, lets take ness to the top!
 

Bryonato

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I'd recommend checking out Sinister's video in the "how are you using magnet" thread as that really helped me develop my play and showed some really great examples of how DJC can just wreck people.
 

GMaster171

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Best places I'v found are uair/dair OOS (depending on distance/how open they are, if they use a quicker move or are right on top of you, use Dair. If they are completely open and too far for dair, uair works well. if they space a quick move, dont DJC, it wont work.)

DJC bair is best used in the neutral game, Ness' jump when facing away baits many things, and the sudden shift of momentum and the extremely low hit that results in DJing towards them and doing a bair catches people quite often.

DJC fair lets you bounce around in the air much safer than just SH fair, in general you can do crossups or out spacing much easier, and because you have three fairly good options out of a full jump when using DJC (remember you can reverse yourself quickly with magnet) its a risk for them if they CC (dair or bair) try to hit you (for most characters fair) or shield (pkf, crossup/spaced dair/fair, tomahawk)

Other things include long grab combos with DJC uair being a regrab option at low %s on spacies/falcon, and a juggling option at %s where it wont get a regrab. Finally tech chasing with Dair is effective if you get a good read, tho Ness' dash speed and the short time it takes just to DJC kinda takes away from this, but its good where its usable due ti its follow ups.

just how I'v been using it, i recommend doing whatever is comfortable, just some pointers.
How do you guys who do use DJC use it?
 

Bryonato

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DJC Uair is a great option out of Dthrow on a good portion of the cast which in turn can set you up for even further follow ups.

DJC Dair/Nair works amazing for tech reads as you mentioned. I think Dair has the most potential in this case just because it sets up Bair so perfectly. Also Magnet -> DJC Dair depending on how they DI looks flashy and works pretty consistently for me anyways.

Also if you manage to land PKF and want to rack up some % you can usually fit in a DJC Dair or 2 while they are caught in the flame. It's pretty nasty.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
After seeing your vid K9, I'd agree with everyone in saying DJC will improve your game a lot. However, I do want to say, I liked watching your Ness video a lot! It taught me a lot....because so much of my game is DJC so to see a good ness do well without it means I can pay attention to the other things I need to improve in my play (like aerial pkfire accuracy). Good stuff, dude. Tell your peach friend to learn how to DI.
 

k9.

Smash Ace
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Me and silly kyle have played each other in 4 sets now. He has no excuse.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
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Anybody here play against good spacie players? Iv gotten multiple TOD combos that work regardless of DI on them, but I had difficulty getting the grab in my first and only match with Fox. Wondering if anyone else has experience in getting the grab in to end the stock.

btw, for numbers and method:
grab/uair/nair at 0:
uthrow/uair/nair->uthrow->uthrow->DJC uair->uthrow->DJC uair->DJC uair->uthrow/uair->uair->bair
This works perfectly on any DI from 0, its also very versatile due to uthrow doing a nice amount of damage (10%) so if you grab at 10, 20 or 30 %, you can skil the first two throws and still do the exact same thing. Where I put uthrow/uair, you have to react to DI, if they dont DI, they will avoid grabs, if they DI left/right, they are vulnerable to a grab. after the first DJC uair you need to grab immediatly, they are in tumble so grabbing too late lets them tech or land, ending the hard combo. final note is that it is sometimes hard to link the first grab after a uair or nair, as they have lower stun compared to bair, fair and dair (two of which are electrical and one is a meteor). does 103 in training, probably around 95 in matches due to stale moves, still an incredible amount for having 3 ways of starting, and it usually sets up a edgeguard situation due to bair's power at 90+.

dair/bair/fair at 0:
dair/bair/fair->uthrow->uthrow->DJC uair->uthrow->DJC uair->DJC uair->DJC uair->bair
due to how much damage these combo starters do, you cant get as much damage in total as you can from a grab at 0. otherwise it works just as above. Does 97 in training, estimate around 85-90 due to stale moves

others?
 

Bryonato

Green Hat
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Apr 24, 2012
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Lewiston, ID
Holy ****. Great post GMaster. Does this work on all spacies? Can't wait to go into training mode and try this out.
 
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