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Leveling up Nana's 'Reference AI'

Derute-Sandstorm

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Maybe not significant but during a match where me and a friend were playing after my friend upsmashed me off the top and I fsmashed him in a trade, while he was side be recovering nana reacted perfectly with a nair and when he went to jump side b again nana immediately went for another nair winning me the game
 

N1c2k3

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I tested this out last night while playing against a freind, and I my PoPo (I play red/white) was doing stuff I had only ever dreamed of him doing. Therefore, I can officially confirm...

this totally works.

Screw the haters...
 

shuall

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Another thought, having nana read the cpu set ai level would be extra coding as compared to hardcoding "1".
I can imagine it might be in there for debugging purposes.

Until someone has the function's offset, or runs tests like fly's but with many more iterations, this all sounds like stuff level 1 nana does.
 

Narpas_sword

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Another thought, having nana read the cpu set ai level would be extra coding as compared to hardcoding "1".
I can imagine it might be in there for debugging purposes.

Until someone has the function's offset, or runs tests like fly's but with many more iterations, this all sounds like stuff level 1 nana does.
You write this as if bugs in coding arent a thing =p
 

shuall

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You write this as if bugs in coding arent a thing =p
wouldn't be a bug, this is something that would have to be intentionally written in.
EDIT: nana AI reading from player AI would be something written in, but they may not have thought of being able to change nana AI indirectly.
 
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Acryte

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I'm pretty interested in whether it has an effect or not. I don't see why it should be banned, honestly, if it does have an effect it's so difficult to measure that people are uncertain if it actually exists. If it works, let the crybabies cry. So scared of other characters getting stronger. Besides no one bans other glitches unless it's a soul stunner type glitch that incapacitates the other player.
 

OddishGuy

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There's always the ever-stylish stock glitch!

For ICs, it's not a glitch, but C-stick buffering has been considered to get Nana only Up or Down smashes. Allows for some really quick desyncs.
 

Acryte

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There's always the ever-stylish stock glitch!

For ICs, it's not a glitch, but C-stick buffering has been considered to get Nana only Up or Down smashes. Allows for some really quick desyncs.
That same trick can be used for shield dropping through platforms or easy powershielding. Typically no one cares. Also Masterhand wasn't banned because it utilizes a glitch, it was because you can't kill him normally which leads to establishing arbitrary percent rules (people wanted a doubles stock tank).
 

Sopo322

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Does this work for the pal version? I've tried and it doesn't work I'm not sure if I'm doing it right though please help!
 

Myougi

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Does this work for the pal version? I've tried and it doesn't work I'm not sure if I'm doing it right though please help!
It should work for the PAL version. I haven't personally tested it myself since I don't have a PAL GC or anything laying around but it should work.

Make sure you select Icies, switch your port's status to CPU, go into a loading/saving zone and then go back to the CSS and change your port's status to HMN then enter a match. For Nana to be triggered to reference the level of a level 9, she has to be in certain CPU modes, iirc NORMAL and DEFENSIVE (these can be seen in debug mode). To get her into that state she needs to be aggravated, so get somebody to hit her after you are hit apart.

Also I'm posting the following vid because was amazing. Wobbles used a level 9 Nana against Hbox at Forte 2 and after looking back at the footage Nana starts her Down-Smash animation the frame Hbox looses ledge invulnerability: http://youtu.be/djJ9DgHtHq8?t=4m27s
 
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Fortress | Sveet

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Wobbles actually made Nana dsmash there. Once you get into range you can give nana orders, and he knows this very well.
 

Myougi

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Wobbles actually made Nana dsmash there. Once you get into range you can give nana orders, and he knows this very well.
True, you can control Nana when she is near you, but you have to be close to one another.

In this scenario, there is no way Popo was close enough to have Nana Down Smash there, and the two clearly weren't synchronized. Nana actually get's desyncronized at 4:23 then gets hit by Hbox with sets her off. (Earlier she was hit around 4:21, but Wobbles shielded to make sure she would resync. He tries to resync with her again with a shield but Nana does a getup attack and Hbox hits Wobbles off before she finishes). After Nana jumps back on stage, Popo is hit off with a Forward Smash from Jiggs. As Popo tries to recover, the set off Nana chases Puff to the ledge and hits him with a Down-Smash the frame he loses his invincibility frames. Popo was already doing an action (Squall Hammer) which prevented Nana from resyncing anyway.

Another thing, look at Wobble's expressions and his movements. He clearly didn't input that Down-Smash and he was surprised it hit.


If you watched the stream you could see him set up the level 9 Nana before the set. If you want conformation he used a level 9, you can ask him on twitter @eskimauxrob.
 
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Smog

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Oh so this is a somewhat confirmed thing? I saw this awhile ago, and I thought everyone dismissed it because it didn't work.

And yeah that wasn't Wobbles, it was Nana, unless he knows something we all don't.
 

Myougi

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Oh so this is a somewhat confirmed thing? I saw this awhile ago, and I thought everyone dismissed it because it didn't work.

And yeah that wasn't Wobbles, it was Nana, unless he knows something we all don't.
I believe it's confirmed with all the data that has been found that supports it, but there's still bit of a gray area around it.
 

Smog

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K. I was just messing around on hyrule and Nana used blizzard (I was using level 9). Don't think I've seen her do this before, and if I have, it wasn't in the first minute of playing.
 
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Myougi

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K. I was just messing around on hyrule and Nana used blizzard (I was using level 9). Don't think I've seen her do this before, and if I have, it wasn't in the first minute of playing.
I've actually noticed that too, Nana seems to like to Blizzard when pressured near the edge now. SleepyK (ICs main from Georgia) pointed it out after he kept seeing it when we were playing Netplay, and now I've started to notice it a lot.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The image you posted is the first frame or two of the dsmash startup. That is also right when Popo gets back into range of Nana to give her orders. Nana is just standing there waiting until wobbles gives the dsmash command.

edit- and his expression says to me that he expected it. Hbox is the surprised one.
 
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Smog

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Well he is a pretty regular streamer now it seems, so ask him next time he streams. He'll probably remember it if it was AI, or just link the vid or something.

Yeah if had down smashed he would d-air'd also. I'm fairly certain it was Nana's AI. I tested it just to be sure though.
 
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Myougi

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The image you posted is the first frame or two of the dsmash startup. That is also right when Popo gets back into range of Nana to give her orders. Nana is just standing there waiting until wobbles gives the dsmash command.

edit- and his expression says to me that he expected it. Hbox is the surprised one.
Okay, no. Popo was NOT in range. I don't know how you can't see that. Did not not see Wobbles yell something like 'YUP!' either? He was clearly surprised.

Anyway, here's the facts:
  • Wobbles used a level 9 Nana, and she down smashed the frame Hbox lost ledge invulnerability - I'm going to get hard evidence asap- I'm asking him on Twitter and will get a screenie for you to make everything clearer. Edit: http://i.imgur.com/gJaAZ0n.png
  • Popo WAS NOT in range, and even if he was, he wasn't in sync to send Nana an input. Want some proof on that? Here's a simple scenario: If you hold onto the ledge with Popo and Nana is standing near you, if you mash C-stick Nana won't do anything. Just because Nana isn't doing anything and is next to Popo doesn't mean they are synchronized. Both climbers can't be in certain action states and resync; You would know that if you watched the video in the main post. Nana will only become resyncronized when Popo stops his ledge roll animation (if you mashed toward the stage, if you mashed down or away Popo will fall and Nana still does nothing. Hitting up makes Popo ledge attack).
 
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Fortress | Sveet

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Feel free to fact check everything with wobbles. Btw you definitely CAN give nana inputs during your sideb animation. I don't think you know your character as well as you claim you do. Keep being an asshole on the boards though, money match me if you ever make it to a national lol. Spend less time on twitter and more time in debug menu pls
 
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Myougi

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Feel free to fact check everything with wobbles. Btw you definitely CAN give nana inputs during your sideb animation. I don't think you know your character as well as you claim you do. Keep being an ******* on the boards though, money match me if you ever make it to a national lol. Spend less time on twitter and more time in debug menu pls
Already checked, and he confirmed. And yes, you CAN give Nana inputs while she is synced with you an Popo is doing a Squall hammer, BUT NOT AT THAT DISTANCE. I know my character more so than you, so you can shut your mouth. I've been being calm and collected but if you're going to start swearing on the boards I'm going to get kinda annoyed.
If you want, MM me, I'll prolly be at Evo if things work out. Come up to me with $50 in hand and we'll play a best of 5 with no stage bans. Get at da kid.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I wasnt going to go to EVO, but maybe I will for this. Make it $500 so you can cover my flight. How do you expect to win when you dont even know your own characters recovery tricks LOL
 

Fly_Amanita

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The distance at which Nana does the dsmash there is unambiguously outside of the range at which Wobbles could have told her to do that. That is firmly an AI decision.
 

OddishGuy

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How do you expect to win when you dont even know your own characters recovery tricks LOL
The distance at which Nana does the dsmash there is unambiguously outside of the range at which Wobbles could have told her to do that. That is firmly an AI decision.
Is it too early to start taking side bets? XD

So the main tests that have been done seem to be mostly DI dependent, and those seem to have been relatively inconclusive. All of the other "Tests" are just testimonies from people saying "Hey my Nana did a sick combo/edge-guard/finisher." I don't know enough about coding to appreciate the people looking into that, but it doesn't seem conclusive either.

Is there really anyway that this can be truly tested, anything that the leveled up version can do that is absolutely impossible for the basic Nana to perform? =/

Feel free to correct me if I'm just blatantly ignorant of what should be substantial evidence.
 
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Fly_Amanita

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I don't particularly value my old DI tests since, to be brief, I think there was something else going on in spite of my attempts to be rigorous in testing procedures, and potential slight variations in DI that might have actually existed might not have been accounted for.

At some point, I want to ask somebody I trust greatly with this sort of territory (e.g. Achilles) about the most recent claims on this, but I also dislike bugging people who are potentially busy with more important matters.
 

-=Untamed-Beast=-

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I wasnt going to go to EVO, but maybe I will for this. Make it $500 so you can cover my flight. How do you expect to win when you dont even know your own characters recovery tricks LOL
You come to my country, and you lose to my friend 0-5. If we play in bracket, we're gonna put 1k on it.

Play nice, kiddos, or else I'm coming for that lunch money.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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After testing further, you're right that Popo could not give orders at that range. I'm not certain on the full rules, but it seems that popo has the be grounded during his sideb before he can give nana orders. However, I've seen nana behave that way when playing trail and when I asked him he always claimed that he did the input; he was probably trolling me lol. In any case, I am far from convinced this is the result of an upgraded nana, since I've seen it happen relatively frequently.

When testing the sideb range I found a potentially consistent way to test the AI glitch. In Debug menu if you press R + D-left a few times a box appears around nana. One of her states is to attack the enemy with random attacks, and when that happens the box around her extends forward and turns red, indicating the region she is attacking. If a difference can be found between the frequency she enters that state or how she reacts when in that state, then perhaps this glitch will have some real evidence.


As for the disrespectful ****s on this page, I'd be glad to take your money. That includes you bones lol
 

FlamingForce

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Ah yes Bones and I were clearly the only ones being disrespectful here.

But I suppose you can spew all the incorrect info you want as long as you can win a MM rite.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Suppose you can sit on the internet and instigate bull****, as long as you can win a ... oh wait you cant
 

shuall

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I believe it's confirmed with all the data that has been found that supports it, but there's still bit of a gray area around it.
Please send me a link to this data.
I have yet to see anything that convinces me it's not just confirmation bias; "she feels different" and "she downsmashed that one time" are not strong evidence.
I've had a "level 1" nana walljumptech a samus uptilt without any input from me, and dsmash people hanging on the ledge.

Not ruling it out, and I think people should keep looking into this until there's stronger evidence like:
"after experimentaling extensively, a level 9 nana does X 40% of the time and a level 1 does it 10%", or
"after disassembling the css menu code, I've found the actual 'nana ai variable' and it does in fact change to a 9"
 

Bones0

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Someone should get a "level 9" Nana separated like in that video so she's on the ledge, then have Samus shoot a charge shot and find a % where she just barely survives. Then repeat the process with a level 1 and see if she dies. If her DI is variable, do 100 tests and see how often she lives/dies.

Based on the stuff that's already been posted in this thread, the dsmash that saved Wobbles seemed like a pretty simple example of how Nana goes into rage mode when Popo is threatened (off stage). Doesn't necessarily seem like it must be a level 9 thing.
 
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Myougi

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Please send me a link to this data.
I have yet to see anything that convinces me it's not just confirmation bias; "she feels different" and "she downsmashed that one time" are not strong evidence.
I've had a "level 1" nana walljumptech a samus uptilt without any input from me, and dsmash people hanging on the ledge.

Not ruling it out, and I think people should keep looking into this until there's stronger evidence like:
"after experimentaling extensively, a level 9 nana does X 40% of the time and a level 1 does it 10%", or
"after disassembling the css menu code, I've found the actual 'nana ai variable' and it does in fact change to a 9"
Check the previous pages of the thread and the post on Reddit. Debug menu data + the actual memory address (0048082f) was found among other things. I agree with you though, more tests need the be found so we can have conclusive evidence. I want to look more into Nana's Blizzard near the edge that was mentioned earlier. I haven't thought about it until it was mentioned, but I haven't seen Nana do Blizzards like that as a level 1.

Someone should get a "level 9" Nana separated like in that video so she's on the ledge, then have Samus shoot a charge shot and find a % where she just barely survives. Then repeat the process with a level 1 and see if she dies. If her DI is variable, do 100 tests and see how often she lives/dies.

Based on the stuff that's already been posted in this thread, the dsmash that saved Wobbles seemed like a pretty simple example of how Nana goes into rage mode when Popo is threatened (off stage). Doesn't necessarily seem like it must be a level 9 thing.
I can test this out later tonight. Level 1-7 should DI randomly and a level 9 should only DI up+in, so the level 9 should last longer. I'll do this on an actual cube (or Dolphin with a clean iso of Melee so I can capture it) opposed to 20XX, mainly due to 20XX's modification of AI (Random hard DI left/right) and post findings later.

I'd like to see is other ICs mains get on the thread and post their findings on it, mostly Wobbles since he uses it. Earlier today I was watching old footage of him play my sponsor (SS :3) and I heard commentators mention that Wobbles said Nana DIs better when he uses it. http://youtu.be/CVMrHBX19To?t=5m49s
 

OddishGuy

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Nana 100% for sure can blizzard near the edge normally. So this means nothing.

I don't know how to look at code or do anything special in depug menus, so my testing has been pretty meaningless. I tried getting 2 Nanas, one level 9 and one normal, permanently separated from Popo and observe what they did. This allowed me to see things such as the Normal one blizzarding near the ledge multiple times, but TBH I didn't really have the patience to observe for too long =(
Is there any way to force the Nana into combat mode? For the most part when they're seperated they still don't engage each-other. I've been seperating them, and leaving the Nanas together to see who gets the KO first. Right now it's like 50/50. But they don't really go after each-other that much which is why a way to force them into combat mode would be swell. Pretty sure this method of testing means nothing X(
 

Stride

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Level 1-7 should DI randomly and a level 9 should only DI up+in, so the level 9 should last longer. I'll do this on an actual cube (or Dolphin with a clean iso of Melee so I can capture it) opposed to 20XX, mainly due to 20XX's modification of AI (Random hard DI left/right) and post findings later.
Is there a concrete source on the CPU's DI at various levels? People seem to have conflicting views on what DI CPUs have at various levels.

Subjectively, I'm certain that CPUs don't DI completely randomly at any level (or at least if they do then they often choose to not DI or stick to a small set of angles, which makes it difficult to determine); you can see that just by playing a level 1 CPU, especially when comparing it to a 20XX CPU of the same level.

My understanding was that 20XX CPUs have been modified to DI completely randomly independently of level, with an increased chance of hard DIing horizontally for throws and only throws. Also, the changes only apply to the player 2 CPU (and can be indirectly disabled by disabling controller spoofing for port 2). @achilles1515, can you please confirm how the DI works?
 
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shuall

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How to disprove nana level 9 (thanks @BigVegeta, please make a thread with better info than what I'm posting):

1. play with level 1 cpu
2. turn on infinite shields (in 20XX, dpad down)
3. make sure popo has no damage, and shield for 8 minutes
4. watch as level 1 cpu jabs or smashes hopelessly on shield, but never grabs; be convinced that lvl1 cpu's don't grab
5. start new match on battlefield with player 2 as human fox
6. get popo into teeter on battlefield platform edge, nana is now an AI
7. get fox to stand next to nana
8. if popo is at low percent nana will jab, but never grab, just like lvl1 cpu; you can do this for however long you want to be convinced
9. as percent goes up on popo (use fox's lasers), nana will eventually start to blizzard (after 40%? 60%) this is nana leveling up her AI to 3 or 4, can't remember right now, but one of the two starts using b moves offensively
10. as popo's percent gets above 120, you can now shield in front of nana AI and she will grab you out of shield, she is now lvl 6 lvl7 (I think, maybe 8/9, its late, I'll check tomorrow)

EDIT: correcting mistakes

There's a couple other things nana will start to do at different popo percents, because that is when her AI levels up. I'll wait until @BigVegeta makes a thread with specifics. Don't want to take all his steam away, just want to put this myth to rest.

EDIT: relevant video https://youtu.be/mkRJ2_RYQf8
 
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