Leveling up Nana's 'Reference AI'

Squid Kid

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How to disprove nana level 9 (thanks @ BigVegeta BigVegeta , please make a thread with better info than what I'm posting):

1. play with level 1 cpu
2. turn on infinite shields (in 20XX, dpad down)
3. make sure popo has no damage, and shield for 8 minutes
4. watch as level 1 cpu jabs or smashes hopelessly on shield, but never grabs; be convinced that lvl1 cpu's don't grab
5. start new match on battlefield with player 2 as human fox
6. get popo into teeter on battlefield platform edge, nana is now an AI
7. get fox to stand next to nana
8. if popo is at low percent nana will jab, but never grab, just like lvl1 cpu; you can do this for however long you want to be convinced
9. as percent goes up on popo (use fox's lasers), nana will eventually start to blizzard (after 40%?) this is nana leveling up her AI to 3 or 4, can't remember right now, but one of the two starts using b moves offensively
10. as popo's percent gets above 120, you can now shield in front of nana AI and she will grab you out of shield, she is now lvl7 (I think, maybe 8/9, its late, I'll check tomorrow)

There's a couple other things nana will start to do at different popo percents, because that is when her AI levels up. I'll wait until @ BigVegeta BigVegeta makes a thread with specifics. Don't want to take all his steam away, just want to put this myth to rest.
Honestly, using 20XX for testing makes me skeptical on this. 20XX modified CPU properties from regular Melee. That, plus the posts here show evidence though CPU states in debug mode that Nana has to be angered first. Didn't Fly already disprove percent being a factor?


Edit: Reading back through the thread, I noticed this from achilles:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...bers_trick_allows_for_you_to_manually/cjvt6ur
Which happens to fall in line with the video showing Nana's address changing posted on page 1.
 
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shuall

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Honestly, using 20XX for testing makes me skeptical on this. 20XX modified CPU properties from regular Melee. That, plus the posts here show evidence though CPU states in debug mode that Nana has to be angered first. Didn't Fly already disprove percent being a factor?


Edit: Reading back through the thread, I noticed this:
You don't need to use 20XX, I suggested it so you can shield for 8 minutes to prove lvl1 doesn't grab you out of shield.

Nope, I don't remember any post where Fly disproves percent being a factor.
When popo is in teeter, nana will act without popo's input, and she will do exactly what I said. At popo 0%, she will never grab an opponent out of shield (even if you do the lvl9 ai 'glitch'), at popo percent above 120%, she will grab you out of shield because lvl9 ai's grab opponents out of shield. She will do it often, almost every other move if you just stand there in shield. She will never do it (or hasn't done it for the multiple 8 minute periods I've tested) when popo is below a certain percent.

You should try these tests for yourself on vanilla melee with and without the lvl9 glitch, and tell me if there are any differences with what I've posted. If there are, than that will be gladly taken as new information, but as of right now, I was a skeptic, but I'm being convinced the more I test this. There is a definite "she does this/she doesn't do this" thing you can test instead of DI, and 'aggressivenes' which are often hard to measure.
 

Squid Kid

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You don't need to use 20XX, I suggested it so you can shield for 8 minutes to prove lvl1 doesn't grab you out of shield.

Nope, I don't remember any post where Fly disproves percent being a factor.
When popo is in teeter, nana will act without popo's input, and she will do exactly what I said. At popo 0%, she will never grab an opponent out of shield (even if you do the lvl9 ai 'glitch'), at popo percent above 120%, she will grab you out of shield because lvl9 ai's grab opponents out of shield. She will do it often, almost every other move if you just stand there in shield. She will never do it (or hasn't done it for the multiple 8 minute periods I've tested) when popo is below a certain percent.

You should try these tests for yourself on vanilla melee with and without the lvl9 glitch, and tell me if there are any differences with what I've posted. If there are, than that will be gladly taken as new information, but as of right now, I was a skeptic, but I'm being convinced the more I test this. There is a definite "she does this/she doesn't do this" thing you can test instead of DI, and 'aggressivenes' which are often hard to measure.

I'm testing this right now, and here's something that happened. I got Popo to walk to a ledge and go into teeter and Nana decided to run off, then jump back on. I noticed that if you input anything they instantly resync. Are the two still synced when Nana is close to Popo like it says in the video?

Either way, I'm going to keep messing with this. I put my trust in the icies gods though.

and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVMrHBX19To&feature=youtu.be&t=5m49s
 
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shuall

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When you input something, it takes popo out of teeter which would resync them. You then have to walk slightly towards the edge again to put popo back into teeter. Try to get it so popo is teetering and nana is just standing next to him, staring down the opponent like the killer she is.

Everything you've posted and that I've read from people like Fly, Achilles, Wobbles, etc is that they still don't know, are "skeptical", "RAM doesn't lie" (in reference to the AI not changing), I'll have to run more tests, not proven in any statistically significant way, could easily just be confirmation bias, etc. I've been waiting for someone to do some tests to see if I can recreate them.
 
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Squid Kid

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When you input something, it takes popo out of teeter which would resync them. You then have to walk slightly towards the edge again to put popo back into teeter. Try to get it so popo is teetering and nana is just standing next to him, staring down the opponent like the killer she is.
Same thing seems to be happening, regardless of how many times I put Popo back into teeter. Haven't got Nana to stare down the other yet. Maybe I need to pivot or something.

Edit: Debug mode data from the thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/leveling-up-nanas-reference-ai.363085/page-2#post-17375393
 
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DerfMidWest

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On his stream a while back wobbles was saying that there isn't really conclusive evidence yet and that the best way to confirm this would be through a series of a bunch of double blind tests.

I'm very skeptical that it actually does anything, or that it's significant if it does, because nana on her own is capable of doing some really weird things, they just aren't super likely to happen.

Regardless, no one has really proved or disproved that the level 9 glitch effects gameplay yet.
Messes with people's heads though.

Also generates good luck.
 
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shuall

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On his stream a while back wobbles was saying that there isn't really conclusive evidence yet and that the best way to confirm this would be through a series of a bunch of double blind tests.

I'm very skeptical that it actually does anything, or that it's significant if it does, because nana on her own is capable of doing some really weird things, they just aren't super likely to happen.

Regardless, no one has really proved or disproved that the level 9 glitch effects gameplay yet.
Messes with people's heads though.

Also generates good luck.
Did you read my post on the previous page? lvl 9 AI will grab you out of shield. Nana AI will only grab someone out of shield when popo is above a certain percent, regardless of lvl 9 'glitch'.
Try it out for yourself.
There's a list of things cpu's will start doing at different levels, and percents where nana will start doing those things, which @ BigVegeta BigVegeta found out, and now I'm convinced as well, that nana levels up according to popo's percent.
Things like offensive aerials (lvl 1 and 2 will not do these), offensive b moves (only lvl4 lvl3 and up I think), and grabbing someone out of their shield.
How to disprove nana level 9 (thanks @ BigVegeta BigVegeta , please make a thread with better info than what I'm posting):

1. play with level 1 cpu
2. turn on infinite shields (in 20XX, dpad down)
3. make sure popo has no damage, and shield for 8 minutes
4. watch as level 1 cpu jabs or smashes hopelessly on shield, but never grabs; be convinced that lvl1 cpu's don't grab
5. start new match on battlefield with player 2 as human fox
6. get popo into teeter on battlefield platform edge, nana is now an AI
7. get fox to stand next to nana
8. if popo is at low percent nana will jab, but never grab, just like lvl1 cpu; you can do this for however long you want to be convinced
9. as percent goes up on popo (use fox's lasers), nana will eventually start to blizzard (after 40%?) this is nana leveling up her AI to 3 or 4, can't remember right now, but one of the two starts using b moves offensively
10. as popo's percent gets above 120, you can now shield in front of nana AI and she will grab you out of shield, she is now lvl7 (I think, maybe 8/9, its late, I'll check tomorrow)

There's a couple other things nana will start to do at different popo percents, because that is when her AI levels up. I'll wait until @ BigVegeta BigVegeta makes a thread with specifics. Don't want to take all his steam away, just want to put this myth to rest.
I don't have them on hand, but there are specific percents where nana will start doing things, like 39% she won't do it, no matter how long you wait, and 40% she starts doing it.
 
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DerfMidWest

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Did you read my post on the previous page? lvl 9 AI will grab you out of shield. Nana AI will only grab someone out of shield when popo is above a certain percent, regardless of lvl 9 'glitch'.
Try it out for yourself.
There's a list of things cpu's will start doing at different levels, and percents where nana will start doing those things, which @ BigVegeta BigVegeta found out, and now I'm convinced as well, that nana levels up according to popo's percent.
Things like offensive aerials (lvl 1 and 2 will not do these), offensive b moves (only lvl4 and up I think), and grabbing someone out of their shield.

I don't have them on hand, but there are specific percents where nana will start doing things, like 39% she won't do it, no matter how long you wait, and 40% she starts doing it.
to be completely fair, I don't check this thread very often.
I did see the nana leveling up thing, which is very interesting, a little of which was already known (i.e. she generally won't smash attack under 40%)
But to expand on that, nana can do very weird things whenever she wants. It's just way less likely.
she's a dumb ho and sometimes breaks the rules.
 

Fly_Amanita

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The only thing I recall ever doing with percentages was verifying that Popo's percentage does indeed have an effect on Nana's behavior. For an easily quantifiable way of observing this, count the number of frames it takes a Nana at 0% to break out of Yoshi's egg with Popo at varying percentages. I don't remember any actual numbers for that off the top of my head since I haven't done it in forever and don't plan on digging through any old data I have, but the difference is easy to observe.

The only concern I have with what Shuall posted is that, with the previous claims of Nana's AI having multiple distinct states (only one of which reads the AI level visible at the CSS), I don't see any intrinsic reason to believe that the one she is in this test is the one that actually reads that level data. If BVB knows something that could lessen that concern, I'd be happy to hear it.
 

shuall

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I'll have to make up an asm code that counts nana's moves over a large time period, and compare the results with popo at different percents.
I'd also like to get a collection of videos of nana doing blizzard, aerials, or grabbing, and check what percent popo was at when she did these things to see if it matches up with the theory.

EDIT: also, relevant video added to original post, but here as well https://youtu.be/mkRJ2_RYQf8
 
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Bones0

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I'll have to make up an asm code that counts nana's moves over a large time period, and compare the results with popo at different percents.
I'd also like to get a collection of videos of nana doing blizzard, aerials, or grabbing, and check what percent popo was at when she did these things to see if it matches up with the theory.

EDIT: also, relevant video added to original post, but here as well https://youtu.be/mkRJ2_RYQf8
This is probably already the case, but you should keep track of Nana's % as well (i.e. make sure she's at 0%). They might be combined in the calculation or something. A high % Nana going into rage mode might explain a disparity in behavior when Popo is at 0%. (relevant protip: Fox's lasers have splash damage so they're damaging both Climbers)
 
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shuall

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This is probably already the case, but you should keep track of Nana's % as well (i.e. make sure she's at 0%). They might be combined in the calculation or something. A high % Nana going into rage mode might explain a disparity in behavior when Popo is at 0%. (relevant protip: Fox's lasers have splash damage so they're damaging both Climbers)
That's fair, I'll try it again, keeping that in mind. However, if nana's percent is even slightly different (+-1%) than popo's then we wouldn't see the changes where popo 79% has her not doing aerials, and 80% she does aerials.

Also, nana AI is going to be slightly different than popo AI, or just slightly simpler. With sopo any level, when the opponent is out of range and on the ground, he will shoot an ice block with more probability as the level of AI goes up. When the opponent is far away from nana, she will simply stand next to popo. When you get within a certain range, she will sometimes roll out or at high popo %'s dash attack. When you get even closer, if popo is above 60%, she will down-b. She doesn't seem to have a long range AI, like a computer sopo, and instead, her long range AI is to simply go idle, or run back to popo.

I did some testing, and while it's not conclusive, it still gives me some information.
2 minutes per cpu level with sopo (done with 20XX to easily get sopo, but I redid some of them with vanilla melee at the relevant levels 3, and 4 and saw no differences in the things I was checking)
30 seconds dashing back and forth in front of sopo
30 seconds running from one side of the map to the other (essentially evade)
30 seconds jumping above sopo in center stage
30 seconds shielding in front of sopo (with shield breaks)
All done on battlefield with human controlled demo-kirby

Code:
moves   jabs    smashes tilts   proj    b-moves aerials grabs   throws  combo
33      24+11   3       4       2       2  (0)  0       0       0       0
45      29+18   9       4       3       3  (0)  0       0       0       0
41      25+17   5       3       5       7  (2)  0       0       0       0
62      41+12   5       3       4       6  (2)  7       0       0       0
85      38+17   9       10      8       12 (4)  16      0       0       0
91      26+14   11      6       5       11 (6)  18      9       8       5
106     30+16   5       5       6       9  (3)  20      14      8       3
91      16+10   11      4       12      17 (5)  19      13      8       7
127     30+8    8       6       29      32 (3)  21      14      8       5       *ab
jabs - are of the format "[total]+[double hit]"
b-moves - are of the format "[total] ([non-projectile])"
combo - I'm noting here as a throw to charge fsmash. One peculiarity is that popo's combo seems to be fixed whether or not he has nana, I was wondering why popo would pummel, wait a second, and then throw, and it's because there is probably a down-b being inputed during the wait, but no nana to execute.
*ab notes the only time during testing where popo did a neutral-b while in the air

Things that seem discrete
does not use non-projectile b moves until lvl 3
does not aerial until lvl 4
does not grab until lvl 7 lvl6

Things that could be controlled by probability, but would need more rigorous testing
'aggressiveness' number of moves per 2 minute period
between lvl4 and lvl5, the frequency in which sopo uses all moves other than jab doubles
double jabs at lvl 9
projectiles
smashes on shield (seem to be replaced by grabbing)

Things I didn't take into consideration, but may be relevant
combos? the only obvious one is grab->pummel->blizzard->charge forward smash
running vs walking
short hops
rolling
L-cancelling
crouching (he does this, and I don't know why)
platform vs ground AI
defensive AI

Things of note
before sopo was lvl 4, his response when my shield would break was to upsmash, after lvl 4 it was an aerial (usually nair)
during evade, popo would walk towards me sometimes doing neutral b, it was only when he got within a certain range that he would switch to other moves; at lvl 9, sopo would neutral b much closer, and more frequently than the other levels.
I don't think lvl 8 is less aggressive, I think I was just getting hit away from popo more during that test, and so he had less chance to hit me

Differences between nana AI and sopo AI
nana does not use probjectiles (if so, not anywhere near as much as sopo)
nana does not side b, or up b
nana does not combo (charge fsmash)

Otherwise, she shows similar discrete changes with sopo cpu levels.

I'm going to run tests next by damaging only popo and noting any changes at 20% intervals.
I may test damaging nana, and seeing if she changes her behaviour.
Also, putting nana into AI in different ways (teeter, desync double jump, popo on ledge)
 
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BigVegeta

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Same thing seems to be happening, regardless of how many times I put Popo back into teeter. Haven't got Nana to stare down the other yet. Maybe I need to pivot or something.

Edit: Debug mode data from the thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/leveling-up-nanas-reference-ai.363085/page-2#post-17375393
It's very important to note that when in teeter Nana will always face an opponent. Test this by walking from one side of the stage to the other while popo teeters. Here is where I noticed she will want to face an enemy. Also as a result nana will never teeter if the opponent is behind popo and will easily be able to teeter if popo is facing the opponent. I'm willing to be you were either playing with no CPU on the or the test dummy was I front of popo making it impossible to set up the situation Shuall and I use to test her actions
 
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shuall

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It's very important to note that when in teeter Nana will always face an opponent. Test this by walking from one side of the stage to the other while popo teeters. Here is where I noticed she will want to face an enemy. Also as a result nana will never teeter if the opponent is behind popo and will easily be able to teeter if popo is facing the opponent. I'm willing to be you were either playing with no CPU on the or the test dummy was I front of popo making it impossible to set up the situation Shuall and I use to test her actions
Nana goes into AI when popo is grabbing ledge as well, but you have to constantly refresh popo if you don't want to die. I'm thinking of testing nana on the teeter on platform edge, on ground edge, and ledge grab desyncs to see if she acts differently.
 

BigVegeta

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Here's a brief video showing how someone was able to prove my theory. Shout outs to my roommate Zila for knowing how debug. Unfortunately the video is showing a flawed test because Nana is taking splash damage but I can assure you her percent does effect her level ups. I'm still unsure if her percent will effect things like action frequency but i'm home now and cant wait to get working on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9us8alj_z8&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: Here's a revised list of my observations, i noticed Shuall has some levels and percents a little off:

LV 0: 0-19%
LV 1 : 20-39%
LV 2: 40-59%
LV 3: 60-79 % (CPU's below level 3 will RARELY use a special move. They will only use ranged special moves within a fairly specific range. Once level 3 nana can start using blizzard)
LV 4: 80-99% (CPU's below level 4 will NEVER aerial. This is when Nana will start using aerials)
LV 5: 100-119%
LV 6: 120-139% (CPU's will grab shielding opponents. Nana abides by this rule)
LV 7: 140-159%
LV 8: 160-179%
LV 9: 180%
 
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drunk SLOTH

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her ai doesnt change from this reset,

her AI has always been affected by Popo's(or the main climbers %)

plup told sometime before apex, that it was old school knowledge that had gotten washed up.

after hearing this I wanted to know more so
to test this, i freeze glitched a human ICs, lvl 1 cpu, and lvl 9 cpu.

no difference in her behavior across these 3 UNTIL i got popo's % higher.
the main 2 things i noted was after 60-70% nana would blizzard
after about 120% she would go for attacks more fluidly. Ex, jab, then a pause, then dash attack, then a pause, then fsmash

i did not go as in depth with the tests as it seems BigVegeta/shuall has but I definitely agree with this as being a legitimate thing,
 
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shuall

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her ai doesnt change from this reset,

her AI has always been affected by Popo's(or the main climbers %)

plup told sometime before apex, that it was old school knowledge that had gotten washed up.

after hearing this I wanted to know more so
to test this, i freeze glitched a human ICs, lvl 1 cpu, and lvl 9 cpu.

no difference in her behavior across these 3 UNTIL i got popo's % higher.
the main 2 things i noted was after 60-70% nana would blizzard
after about 120% she would go for attacks more fluidly. Ex, jab, then a pause, then dash attack, then a pause, then fsmash

i did not go as in depth with the tests as it seems BigVegeta/shuall has but I definitely agree with this as being a legitimate thing,
The most I'd heard or read before was that she smashes more when popo is above 100%. I don't even know if that's right now.
 

DerfMidWest

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uuuuhm I'm not sure how much we actually knew. It was common knowledge that she didn't really use smash attacks when popo is bellow like 40% or w/e and that she'll get more aggressive when popo is at high percent, but I think that's about it.
 

Bones0

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So Nana's % is irrelevant? Good to know. These should be the percentages at which we can expect an AI level change:

< 20% - Level 0
20% - Level 1
40% - Level 2
60% - Level 3
80% - Level 4
100% - Level 5
120% - Level 6
140% - Level 7
160% - Level 8
180% - Level 9
 
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Fortress | Sveet

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Is there a possibility for a level 0 computer before 20%? They check for greater than 9 but don't check for less than 1...

Thats assuming the comments are accurate. I don't know enough ASM off hand to verify.
 

Achilles1515

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Is there a possibility for a level 0 computer before 20%? They check for greater than 9 but don't check for less than 1...

Thats assuming the comments are accurate. I don't know enough ASM off hand to verify.
Yes, it seems as though there is a level 0, likely titled "dumber than a box of rocks." There is actually a level 10+ as well. I haven't messed with it in over a year, but if I remember correctly, and levels from 10-255 all act the same. And it's not "better" than a level 9, it's just...weird. Try it in Dolphin.

P2 CPU Lvl is 255 (1.02)
004800853 000000FF

The "FF" can be changed to "00" for lvl 0 if you want to try that as well. I don't know if I've ever tried that.
 
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