Let's Talk About Witch Time

[Vinje]

I bet Bayonetta is going to get a nerf next patch.

I don't know, if they didn't nerf Cloud or Ryu despite their really good tools and people whining about them being broken I doubt they're going to nerf Bayonetta.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I hope witch time remains untouched. And I hope people get salty AF over it.

When it comes to gimmicky characters, they tend to have that one thing they do really well, and it's what makes them unique. If you nerf their gimmick, you're basically taking a dump on the whole idea behind the character.

Take little mac; if they added more startup & endlag on his moves, and took away his super armor, the character is **** outta luck; his amazing ground game is all he's got!

Or link; imagine if they added a timer to his projectiles, where you could only use bomb every like 10 secs. His zoning game would cease to exist.

And what about cloud? What if they doubled the time it took to get limit breaks? People would drop him faster than bowser's downB.

Bayonetta is built upon witch time! She NEEDS it. Without it as good as it is now, her viability would likely be far below what it may be otherwise. Witch time is, at best, a kill confirm, and at worst, an escape move. And that kill confirm isnt even a guaranteed one! You still need to actually hit them with something!

Does corrin need to followup their counter? No! If they counter you, thats it, you get hit. Game over. There's no room for good ol' human error or jank to get in the way (seriously guys, dont tell me you havent completely flubbed a witch time punish at least a few times). We've all seen the videos of bayo's smashes getting eaten up by other moves, or her getting hit out of it. It's not a death sentence.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually I recently hit a Counter Surge with a perfectly spaced Shulk ftilt and wasn't harmed. Seems to be somewhat lacking in horizontal reach.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Actually I recently hit a Counter Surge with a perfectly spaced Shulk ftilt and wasn't harmed. Seems to be somewhat lacking in horizontal reach.

u wot m8?

 

[meleebrawler]

u wot m8?

I was half asleep and thought I was in CCI when I posted that.

 

[Giova]

Let's talk about Witchtime properties, tips & tricks.

What we know:
- Witch time stall even if you don't counter
- it unstall by time
- it doesnt care if you are at high % or not, just the stall of it
- it cancels combo landing lag
- if you know something write it

What we don't know:
- bat within stall witch time?
- what follows up can we do in what scenarios
- ???? Add things you want to know

 

[The Puffer]

Welp, in case it hasn't been discussed yet, Witch Time can slow down more than one character. This could be very helpful in 2v1 situations.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Welp, in case it hasn't been discussed yet, Witch Time can slow down more than one character. This could be very helpful in 2v1 situations.

It was shown in the trailer.

 

[PapaJ]

Let's talk about Witchtime properties, tips & tricks.

What we know:
- Witch time stall even if you don't counter
- it unstall by time
- it doesnt care if you are at high % or not, just the stall of it
- it cancels combo landing lag
- if you know something write it

What we don't know:
- bat within stall witch time?
- what follows up can we do in what scenarios
- ???? Add things you want to know

Actuall Witch Time will affect a damaged fighter more. IE if you staled witch time on a 0 percent character Witch time only gives you enough time for the doge animation to finish. Wheres at around 70 percent A staled witch time will give you more time to follow up, possible a smash attack.

The main thing off of witch time we can do is probably Dtilt > Usmash since Dtilt pops them off and Usmash is very strong. I dont recomend doing Special combos like with ABK or witch twist but more like Bair > Bair > Fsmash or Dtilt > Dair > something else. The special combos rely on the opponent being in the right place which witch time screws up. Sticing to normals is your best bet imo.

Also at about fifty to sixty percent a witch time near the ledge should give you enough time for a Fthrow,Bthrow, Dthrow > Dsmash. Or any move that gets them off the ledge to a Dsmash.

Edit: Also, through testing, I wanna say if you want a fully fresh Witch time after using Witch time once wait 10 seconds and it should be at full. This might be a bit sooner then 10 but this seemed to give me the best results.

 

[Giova]

Edit: Also, through testing, I wanna say if you want a fully fresh Witch time after using Witch time once wait 10 seconds and it should be at full. This might be a bit sooner then 10 but this seemed to give me the best results.

Just 10 secs? Dayum I thought it was more!
So maybe be using witch time a lot is a good way of playing.

I think using witch time at the start of the match will be a good way to start. We should aim to 0% to death combos starting with witch time or at least high damage combos. Cuz if 10 secs unstall witch time then thats abusable.

 

[The Puffer]

It was shown in the trailer.

Really???? I have watched it like ten times and never noticed it lol

 

[Trexbor17]

Sakurai recently said that development on smash wiiu/3ds has stopped, so i guess no more patches

 

[Ixbran]

MUWAHAHAHA, YAS!

The witch time we have is what were gonna get for the rest of the games lifespan <3

 

[ぱみゅ]

I seriously doubt they'll stop patches altogether.
They might take a while, but I don't think this is the last stop.

At leas I hope, there are tons of bugs yet to fix, specially Corn's

 

[BlackCephie]

Has anyone gotten good at controlling bat within yet? Ive been practicing the timing for it, specifically on normal dodge. If so, what tips can you offer for controlling it better, or is it really just meant to be a chance kind of thing?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Has anyone gotten good at controlling bat within yet? Ive been practicing the timing for it, specifically on normal dodge. If so, what tips can you offer for controlling it better, or is it really just meant to be a chance kind of thing?

It's a ****tier dodge, just with good frame data. Don't specifically go for it.

 

[Routa]

Btw do Command Grabs like Wario's Chomp trigger Bat Within/Witch Time? Just wondering.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Btw do Command Grabs like Wario's Chomp trigger Bat Within/Witch Time? Just wondering.

Good question...

You'd think not in reality. I mean, they go through shields and counters etc, so you'd expect Witch Time to be ineffective to them.

 

[Giova]

Btw do Command Grabs like Wario's Chomp trigger Bat Within/Witch Time? Just wondering.

If you activate witch time, you dodge the bite but doesnt slow wario... I think he still grabs you after witchtime animation is over, cuz that command grab is crazy

 

[Shadow the Past]

Has anyone gotten good at controlling bat within yet? Ive been practicing the timing for it, specifically on normal dodge. If so, what tips can you offer for controlling it better, or is it really just meant to be a chance kind of thing?

There's not really a point in intentionally triggering it. Just treat it like super-armor; it's nice when it hits, but its better to get the invincibility instead.

 

[po pimpus]

Btw do Command Grabs like Wario's Chomp trigger Bat Within/Witch Time? Just wondering.

Wario Chomp does not activate WT, and neither does Koopa Klaw, and the Chomp will likely catch you in the end frames of WT's dodge animation.

Also, this is what I was able to discern about Witch Time's behaviors from some testing I did earlier today(please note these time windows are not perfect, as i did not have an accurate timepiece on hand):

First off, the first two uses of WT will net you approximately five seconds of slow down. This is a set value unaffected by the opponent's percent or your own damage. Opponent percent comes into play later.

Next, any use past the first two uses will see a significant reduction in slow time, down to about 1-2 seconds.

Now, this reduction is alleviated by either losing a stock, or after approximately 15 seconds have passed without use.

As was noted in the trailer, the more damaged an opponent, the longer the WT effect lasts... Once a foe has reached 100% or higher, the initial WT slowdown sees an extra 1 second added to it, for a maximum of six seconds of slowdown.

However, the greatest effect is what opponent damage does to the reduction rate- An opponent hit with a stale WT past 100% will be slowed for a set floor of three seconds. This is the absolute lowest WT duration for someone above 100% damage affected by Witch Time, and will not degrade further.
This staling naturally returns to its full state should Bayonetta lose a stock, or approximately 15 seconds have passed.

Again, these times are approximate, and not 100% accurate. Should someone with a better testing setup wish to confirm or deny these findings, please feel free to do so.

 

[Deaga]

Even if it's preliminary info, it's still very good to know that WT will always last a ****ton if it's fresh, regardless of %, and that it will still last a while even when stale, provided the opponent has a high %. I was always "saving" WT for higher percents, but now I know it's mostly ok to use it early on too, if the chance presents itself. Thanks for the detailed info!

 

[Ghidorah14]

So basically, dont spam, but dont be afraid to go for it a lot either.

I've seen so many bayo fights on YT that could've ended differently had they just dropped the nice guy/girl act and just hit downB.

 

[Ijuka]

Nerf Witch Time? Why?

 

[Ixbran]

Not gonna happen, Sakurai has already said the team working on SSB4 has moved onto other projects, hes taking a vacation. the version we have is what were gonna have until the next smash title

 

[Deaga]

Not sure if old news, I didn't see anything about this and it's only relevant to Bayonetta dittos: The Bullet Arts will trigger Witch Time even from far away, unlike other projectiles. So the Arts ook like they're pretty terrible in the ditto. >_>

 

[ぱみゅ]

IIRC, Bullet Arts are not projectiles, they're disjoints, and Witch Time will affect Disjoints.

 

[Deaga]

I see, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[palutenya]

Not gonna happen, Sakurai has already said the team working on SSB4 has moved onto other projects, hes taking a vacation. the version we have is what were gonna have until the next smash title

"development has concluded" doesn't mean "the game will never be patched again." it wouldn't be hard for them to go back and tweak some values if they absolutely needed to.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Has shield breaking during Witch Time been discussed? Saw this on my feed: https://twitter.com/ikep334/status/698456691856179200

Since the slowdown causes their shieldstun to be longer as well, you can lock them into shield and break it before they can roll/drop shield. Idk if the video had a full Witch Time activated, but the WT ended literally as the last fsmash connected, which makes it seem like you have to start hitting their shield almost immediately.

 

[Jezo]

Edit: Also, through testing, I wanna say if you want a fully fresh Witch time after using Witch time once wait 10 seconds and it should be at full. This might be a bit sooner then 10 but this seemed to give me the best results.

From what I just tested now, but not thorough testing, as we all know, if you abuse Witch Time, the time which Witch Time lasts decreases with each iteration. Following on from this "10 seconds" rule, from what it seems the rule also applies for each iteration. So say you used Witch Time once, you'd have to wait 10 seconds for it to be fresh again. However, if you used Witch Time again within those 10 seconds, an extra 10 seconds is added till it can be fresh again. I haven't found out if the 10 seconds is added on, or whether the timer now makes you wait 20 seconds. I think it might be the latter. Just something to test I guess.

 

[pikazz]

Has shield breaking during Witch Time been discussed? Saw this on my feed: https://twitter.com/ikep334/status/698456691856179200

Since the slowdown causes their shieldstun to be longer as well, you can lock them into shield and break it before they can roll/drop shield. Idk if the video had a full Witch Time activated, but the WT ended literally as the last fsmash connected, which makes it seem like you have to start hitting their shield almost immediately.

doing WT and making them being in shield is really hard as they will still be in the same animation as before.

however, with Pikmins (and Bombs, bananas etc), we can trigger WT whenever they are but on close range. so if someone holds shield during that time it will be most likely a shieldbreak

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Alright. I'm a non-Bayo player who has a question about WT and Bat Within. For one, what exactly is Bat Within and what does that mean? Second of all, and this is just for clarification...but WT is pretty useless against multi-hit moves, right (so long as multiple hitboxes connect)?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Alright. I'm a non-Bayo player who has a question about WT and Bat Within. For one, what exactly is Bat Within and what does that mean? Second of all, and this is just for clarification...but WT is pretty useless against multi-hit moves, right (so long as multiple hitboxes connect)?

Bat Within is a special property of Bayonetta's dodges, and also part of her Down-B; there are a certain amount of frames before (or after, in the case of WT) the invincibility frames (active frames for WT) where she will take half damage from moves and no knockback. I still don't personally understand how her momentum/positioning works when it activates.

WT is still very useful against multi-hit moves, she simply has to get out of the way of the next hit quickly. The slowdown is significant enough that--together with WT neutralizing the hitbox it activated against--she can easily slip out of the range of the next hitbox, or hit the person attacking her before it comes out.

 

[Megamang]

^ after which she can do a light quick attack to stop you from having lingering hitboxes, then smash the **** outta you.

 

[BlackCephie]

Also a thing to note is that if you WT someone who grabs the ledge, trying to ledge trump them to cut out their invoncibility frames doesnt work.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Also a thing to note is that if you WT someone who grabs the ledge, trying to ledge trump them to cut out their invoncibility frames doesnt work.

Yeah but you can grab the ledge & react to their options. If they dont do anything you will trump them but if they get up in anyway you can react

 

[Dj.D]

I fought a player yesterday who managed to block my up smashes during Witch Time while in the air, but my 2nd up smash connected. I saved a replay not only because I enjoyed the match, so I could study it. How is that possible? Shields don't come out while in the air...

You see this at 1:50 and 2:21

 

[David Viran]

That's because his hitbox from Nair was still active during WTi and bayos smashes are considered projectiles so they clank with any hitbox. If you notice this just give them a quick hit with a move like utilt then charge your smash attack.

 

[meleebrawler]

That's because his hitbox from Nair was still active during WTi and bayos smashes are considered projectiles so they clank with any hitbox. If you notice this just give them a quick hit with a move like utilt then charge your smash attack.

Specifically, the game treats Wicked Weaves as projectiles in every way sauf being reflectable. Fun fact: if you witch time Bayo's fsmash at the very tip, the attacking Bayo won't be affected.