Let's Talk About Witch Time

[Giova]

Broken move right here!

What are your impressions, do you think will it actually be broken?

A couple of questions:

1. Do you think using witch time, like marth countering luigi up b or side b, will screw luigi's recovery? Or other hitting up b like lucina's, pikachu's, ryu's, etc

2. Witch time at the edge > Dsmash ftw


3. If Bayonetta dodge a proyectile like Link's boomerang, do you think Witch Time activate on Link, on the boomerang or doesnt activate.

If you got other questions post them here so we can talk about it!

 

[David Viran]

Hard to say since we don't know enough about it. I can definitely see this move having a lot of potential.

 

[Deleted member]

1- I'm pretty sure it just stops him.
2- This is a good option to go for a stylish kill, lmao.

3- Well, it will activate it, but the hitbox will probably not hit Link. We will just have to wait until she releases.

 

[Tythaeus]

I don't know about it being broken, but based off what has been shown, the move has potential; if I can do some stlyish, disrespectful **** with it then I'm happy lol.

I guess a question that can be asked, but won't be answered until Bayonetta comes out would be "How can one disrespect with it?"

 

[ぱみゅ]

Depending on how hurtbox detection works, it might be a super interesting move in doubles.
That being said, considering her Down Special has two moves (Witch time and Bat Within), it might probably be extremely dangerous to miss the activation frames, possibly more unsafe than most other moves.

 

[David Viran]

Depending on how hurtbox detection works, it might be a super interesting move in doubles.
That being said, considering her Down Special has two moves (Witch time and Bat Within), it might probably be extremely dangerous to miss the activation frames, possibly more unsafe than most other moves.

I noticed that they didn't even show what a missed down b looks like. I did notice that she moves a little bit like a dodge and that it can be b reversed.

 

[Burgundy]

I wonder how exactly Bat Within is going to work. When it was activated by 's Fsmash, Witch Time goes into effect, but it never activates in the rest of the clips. I wonder if it's based on timing. :/

 

[Hinata]

I wonder how exactly Bat Within is going to work. When it's activated by 's Fsmash, Witch Time goes into effect, but it never activates in the rest of the clips. I wonder if it's based on timing. :/

I hope that, if we can trigger Bat Within and Witch Time together, using Bat Within will slow your opponent down for longer periods of time like it does in her source games.

 

[deepseadiva]

Uhhhhhhhh

That being said, considering her Down Special has two moves (Witch time and Bat Within), it might probably be extremely dangerous to miss the activation frames, possibly more unsafe than most other moves.

From what I gathered it's a counter move with an extra fail safe at the end. So if you missing the timing for Witch Time, Bat Within activates instead.

Which seems safer than all other counters.

 

[MugenSSB]

Idk I doubt it will be broken, but it does look good. The timing will probably be pretty strict (similar to a perfect shield) but that's probably how it will be balanced.

 

[BJN39]

I'm gonna guess the actual successful "witch time" window is slimmer than a counter by far, it's easy to tell just by looking over the overview.

Maybe... Like a half-and-half over a normal counter's length:

|-----------------------------| Marth
Counter period

|--------------|--------------| Bayonetta
Witch Time | Bat Within

Possibly even more like this:

|-----------------------------| Marth
Counter period

|--------|--------| Bayonetta
|- WT -|- BW -|

At least, if the window for time control isn't shorter than a counter window the move would be hilariously free to use.

I like the move. I also like how the timer doesn't cut off after you hit the target. It looks like we'll be able to direction Bat Within on dodge too?

Also, I'm not the only one who immediately noticed how the vortes surrounding the target is almost an exact replica of the one found on Zelda's Phantom Slash? :^)

 

[Halifax?]

When I play Bayonetta 2, I fish for enemy attacks to activate Witch Time then go in for a long combo. When Sakurai says Bayonetta's moves have poor start up, it tells me she relies on Witch Time to start her offense. Sakurai included Bat Within to mitigate the punishment she will take fishing for counters. She sounds very fun to fight against with such an interesting twist to the attack, shield, grab meta.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The thing I referred as "less safe" and I am slightly worried about is something like this:

[--|---------|--------------------] Marth
[--|---------|----------------------------------------------] Bayonetta
Counter Activation Frames | Startup/Cooldown Frames (punishable period)

Edit: Also, I kind of vaguely remember from the trailer that Bayo took damage from Bat Within.

 

[Hinata]

Edit: Also, I kind of vaguely remember from the trailer that Bayo took damage from Bat Within.

She does. The only thing Bat Within does for Bayonetta is prevent her from taking knockback and make her take slightly less damage from whatever attack she just dodged. No Witch Time, and no getting off damage-free.

 

[Burgundy]

She does. The only thing Bat Within does for Bayonetta is prevent her from taking knockback and make her take slightly less damage from whatever attack she just dodged. No Witch Time, and no getting off damage-free.

Though there was one clip where Mewtwo's Fsmash activated Bat Within, but Witch Time still went into effect. :/

 

[Lakuto]

The weird thing is that ,in the Bayonetta games, Bat Within activates only if you triggered the dodge too *late*. So, if they are trying to be really respectful to the main serie, the Witch Time frame window should be *after* the Bat Within one and not the other way around. That's just my opinion though (in the trailer you almost don't even the see the Downb animation with BW so that kinda makes sense).

Another question with WT: Can you footstool someone in WT?
That would be awesome punish if so. Example: WT > UpSmash > footstool > Dtilt jablock (not 100% sure) > Sideb or another Smash for the kill.

 

[deepseadiva]

When I play Bayonetta 2, I fish for enemy attacks to activate Witch Time then go in for a long combo. When Sakurai says Bayonetta's moves have poor start up, it tells me she relies on Witch Time to start her offense. Sakurai included Bat Within to mitigate the punishment she will take fishing for counters. She sounds very fun to fight against with such an interesting twist to the attack, shield, grab meta.

That's exactly how you play Bayonetta. Being predictive and stringing as much of a combo off of every time freeze. If that's how she functions, then DownB is going to be very integral to her in Smash as much as it is in her games. What a beautiful way to translate her exact fighting style from game to game.

 

[Giova]

The thing I referred as "less safe" and I am slightly worried about is something like this:

[--|---------|--------------------] Marth
[--|---------|----------------------------------------------] Bayonetta
Counter Activation Frames | Startup/Cooldown Frames (punishable period)

Edit: Also, I kind of vaguely remember from the trailer that Bayo took damage from Bat Within.

I hope, I really hope this is not the case lol, and yeah she takes damage with bat within

Another question with WT: Can you footstool someone in WT?
That would be awesome punish if so. Example: WT > UpSmash > footstool > Dtilt jablock (not 100% sure) > Sideb or another Smash for the kill.

I think Bayonetta will have some crazy footstool combos, and WitchTime will setup them very nicely!

They didnt show Witch Time in the air tho!
She made a little ground dodge when Witch Time activated, Idk hows she is gonna dodge in the air, like a common airdodge maybe?

 

[Lakuto]

They didnt show Witch Time in the air tho!
She made a little ground dodge when Witch Time activated, Idk hows she is gonna dodge in the air, like a common airdodge maybe?

Hopefully it will be like an airdodge with air mobility.

 

[Giova]

I just saw the Bayonetta analysis for the 47282636th time. Witch Time can be activated even if BatWithin goes, look when mewtwo attacks bayonetta. Both moves activate!

 

[Benoas]

I think witch time will act one of this two ways:

1.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|------------|----------|
Witch Time| Endlag

Or after being hit
|---|
Bat within

If you read the attack but activate it too late it will activate the bat within instead. I expect the bat within activation window will be the first few frames of hitstun.

Or:

2.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|-----|------|----------|
Batwithin| Witch Time| Endlag

To translate that into English, when you press down b for a few frames if your hit the bat within will activate (so you've activated it too late for witch time) then for the next few frames the witch time will be activated if your hit).This means you'll need to get a better read than a normal counter to get witch time to work.


Bat within seems to negate all knockback from an attack, half the damage and have a dodge.

 

[Lakuto]

I think witch time will act one of this two ways:

1.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|------------|----------|
Witch Time| Endlag

Or after being hit
|---|
Bat within

If you read the attack but activate it too late it will activate the bat within instead. I expect the bat within activation window will be the first few frames of hitstun.

Or:

2.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|-----|------|----------|
Batwithin| Witch Time| Endlag

To translate that into English, when you press down b for a few frames if your hit the bat within will activate (so you've activated it too late for witch time) then for the next few frames the witch time will be activated if your hit).This means you'll need to get a better read than a normal counter to get witch time to work.


Bat within seems to negate all knockback from an attack, half the damage and have a dodge.

That's exactly what I meant but my formulation wasn't on point and I am on mobile so making huge post is kinda hard. I totally agree with you for the mechanic.

 

[Benoas]

That's exactly what I meant but my formulation wasn't on point and I am on mobile so making huge post is kinda hard. I totally agree with you for the mechanic.

Haha, I'm on mobile too so I know exactly how hard making a huge post is!

 

[Giova]

I think witch time will act one of this two ways:

1.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|------------|----------|
Witch Time| Endlag

Or after being hit
|---|
Bat within

If you read the attack but activate it too late it will activate the bat within instead. I expect the bat within activation window will be the first few frames of hitstun.

Or:

2.

Marth:
|------------|-----------|
Counter|Endlag

Bayonetta
|-----|------|----------|
Batwithin| Witch Time| Endlag

To translate that into English, when you press down b for a few frames if your hit the bat within will activate (so you've activated it too late for witch time) then for the next few frames the witch time will be activated if your hit).This means you'll need to get a better read than a normal counter to get witch time to work.


Bat within seems to negate all knockback from an attack, half the damage and have a dodge.

Yeah this is probably what Witch Time will be, but as my last post I think we have to add a time when Witch Time and Bat Within activate. Something like this:

Marth Counter
|----------------------|----------------------|
Counter // EndLag

Witch Time
|-------------|--------|----------|------------------|
WT // W&B // B // EndLag


WT = Witchtime
W&B = Witchtime & Batwithin
B = Batwithin

 

[TippingScales]

If people use it like in bayo 1, it will be the best way to finish an enemy, if its used like in bayo 2, that U need witch time every freaking damn second (ugh, bayo 2's mechanics...)

It will be like, oh good, but nothing happend, the lag when Bayo finishes the dodge animation is long enough to witch time have no use for her, like happens with Accolades or Allegiances, Witch time is a mere second and its no use for the user, more than just evading. (infinite climax would been better if it had no witch time and good enemy design).

for what I'm meaning, bayo 1, just certain attacks give U witch time, If smash users do it that way, witch time will be better than lil' macs KO.

If they spam it like nothing else, it will be just annoying but easy to deal with.

Bat within might be way more OP tho, it has been both bayo games and in smash, YET, there is a thing that does happen in both games, getting bat within is REALLY HARD.

The time is pretty much this
before the attack: Witch time is activated, YET bat within is only activated IF you manage to dodge at the exact moment the enemy hits you.
and I believe thats what sakurai meant, since its the same way they explain it in both games.
rather than being a high time for the dodge its just a lucky 7 that if youre capable you will get it.

so I believe it may be like this

I--------------I
Witch time
I-I
Bat Within

 

[UkeNicky]

About the actual move, I know that you are all saying it will be useful in her combo game/racking up damage BUT let's not forget that overusing it will shorten its duration!

Also, I feel like it will be much more useful against enemies at a higher percent because you will receive longer witch time the higher their damage is!

In my opinion, the longer you can get witch time to be the better, it will make for easier kill confirm or gimping which will probably help Bayonetta's Smash fighting style immensely.

I for one HOPE that activating witch time on a projectile will slow whoever fired that projectile down even if they are far away. In fact, in both title games, using witch time on a projectile gave you bonus witch time! So c'mon it would only be fair so that way she would have a way to deal with pesky spammers

My overall thoughts, tl;dr version:
Combo tool, punish tool, salt tool, ANTI-RAGE MECHANIC tool, kill confirm tool, gimping tool and it also has a fail safe built in with bat within it's going to be amazing Idc what you say otherwise even if the activation on witch time is a bit tricky, we will learn how to do it consistently if it is that good, there's nothing more to it.

 

[TippingScales]

About the actual move, I know that you are all saying it will be useful in her combo game/racking up damage BUT let's not forget that overusing it will shorten its duration!

Also, I feel like it will be much more useful against enemies at a higher percent because you will receive longer witch time the higher their damage is!

In my opinion, the longer you can get witch time to be the better, it will make for easier kill confirm or gimping which will probably help Bayonetta's Smash fighting style immensely.

I for one HOPE that activating witch time on a projectile will slow whoever fired that projectile down even if they are far away. In fact, in both title games, using witch time on a projectile gave you bonus witch time! So c'mon it would only be fair so that way she would have a way to deal with pesky spammers

My overall thoughts, tl;dr version:
Combo tool, punish tool, salt tool, ANTI-RAGE MECHANIC tool, kill confirm tool, gimping tool and it also has a fail safe built in with bat within it's going to be amazing Idc what you say otherwise even if the activation on witch time is a bit tricky, we will learn how to do it consistently if it is that good, there's nothing more to it.

It can also lead to ppl spamming witch time, wont be that much of a deal, but I believe it would be annoying nonetheless.

 

[Giova]

About the actual move, I know that you are all saying it will be useful in her combo game/racking up damage BUT let's not forget that overusing it will shorten its duration!

Also, I feel like it will be much more useful against enemies at a higher percent because you will receive longer witch time the higher their damage is!

In my opinion, the longer you can get witch time to be the better, it will make for easier kill confirm or gimping which will probably help Bayonetta's Smash fighting style immensely.

I for one HOPE that activating witch time on a projectile will slow whoever fired that projectile down even if they are far away. In fact, in both title games, using witch time on a projectile gave you bonus witch time! So c'mon it would only be fair so that way she would have a way to deal with pesky spammers

My overall thoughts, tl;dr version:
Combo tool, punish tool, salt tool, ANTI-RAGE MECHANIC tool, kill confirm tool, gimping tool and it also has a fail safe built in with bat within it's going to be amazing Idc what you say otherwise even if the activation on witch time is a bit tricky, we will learn how to do it consistently if it is that good, there's nothing more to it.

No doubt about it! Broken AF!

I'll be taunting all the way everytime I get a witchtime! Lol

 

[David Viran]

BW might be more important as a combo breaker than a fail safe.

 

[JosePollo]

Uhhhhhhhh



From what I gathered it's a counter move with an extra fail safe at the end. So if you missing the timing for Witch Time, Bat Within activates instead.

Which seems safer than all other counters.

If this is the case, then I imagine the counter window for Witch Time is going to be fairly strict as opposed to other counters, which... SORT OF balances the positives from landing Witch Time, but not really because of just how much you can get off of a successful Witch Time. I imagine you'll be landing Bat Within more often than Witch Time unless you catch an opponent charging a smash or something super predictable.

 

[Giova]

If this is the case, then I imagine the counter window for Witch Time is going to be fairly strict as opposed to other counters, which... SORT OF balances the positives from landing Witch Time, but not really because of just how much you can get off of a successful Witch Time. I imagine you'll be landing Bat Within more often than Witch Time unless you catch an opponent charging a smash or something super predictable.

I think it will be like a perfect shield/normal shield situation

But if it works like the games, Batwithin is harder to land than Witchtime but I don't think it will work like bayo1 & 2

 

[Greda]

I think it's important to mention that Bat Within activates if Witch Time is triggered late, not early.

Therefore, something like this doesn't make sense:

|----|----|
Witch Time/Bat Within

It'd have to be something more similar to:

|----|----|
Bat Within/Witch Time

This format matches her actual game and information from the direct.

Personally, I would expect the actual thing to be:

|-|--|-----|----|*
Bat Within // BW+WT // Witch Time // End Lag

*Actual length portrayed by this diagram is just mere speculation and may not be accurate. End Lag shown is just a placeholder due to the fact that the actual value can hardly be determined due to insufficient data.

 

[Tythaeus]

I think it's important to mention that Bat Within activates if Witch Time is triggered late, not early.

Therefore, something like this doesn't make sense:

|----|----|
Witch Time/Bat Within

It'd have to be something more similar to:

|----|----|
Bat Within/Witch Time

This format matches her actual game and information from the direct.

Personally, I would expect the actual thing to be:

|-|--|-----|----|*
Bat Within // BW+WT // Witch Time // End Lag

*Actual length portrayed by this diagram is just mere speculation and may not be accurate. End Lag shown is just a placeholder due to the fact that the actual value can hardly be determined due to insufficient data.

Having Bat Within activate early doesn't make sense to me. Using your diagram as an example, if you were to counter, unless you time it late, your only reward would be less damage. What would be the point of that outside of combo breaking? I would rather have it work as a combo breaker if I time it late since the better reward would be the benefits of Witch Time.

 

[BlackCephie]

It basically looks like it has a normal counter window like palutena's, except the effect for bw triggers if the opponents attack actually connects and you havnt already input for wt. Seems really good if so cuz it saves you from knockback.

OR its coded to where the initial input places an invisible hit box around Bayo that triggers wt if an opponents attack hits it, but that invisible force field dissipates after a certain time, at which point bt triggers instead.

 

[Spelt]

It would've been way cooler if Bayonetta had an actual sort of parry mechanic that activated witch time. We've never really had anything of the sort in smash and considering how much effort they put into each character to try and make them feel unique it's definitely something I could've seen them doing. It would've been much better than just adding her onto the laundry list of characters that already have a counter special in Smash 4, at least.

 

[Giova]

I think it's important to mention that Bat Within activates if Witch Time is triggered late, not early.

Therefore, something like this doesn't make sense:

|----|----|
Witch Time/Bat Within

It'd have to be something more similar to:

|----|----|
Bat Within/Witch Time

This format matches her actual game and information from the direct.

Personally, I would expect the actual thing to be:

|-|--|-----|----|*
Bat Within // BW+WT // Witch Time // End Lag

*Actual length portrayed by this diagram is just mere speculation and may not be accurate. End Lag shown is just a placeholder due to the fact that the actual value can hardly be determined due to insufficient data.

Yeah this isnt correct, this doesnt happen neither in the games, and Daddy Sakurai already said batwithin activates after witchtime

 

[Greda]

Having Bat Within activate early doesn't make sense to me. Using your diagram as an example, if you were to counter, unless you time it late, your only reward would be less damage. What would be the point of that outside of combo breaking? I would rather have it work as a combo breaker if I time it late since the better reward would be the benefits of Witch Time.

Yeah this isnt correct, this doesnt happen neither in the games, and Daddy Sakurai already said batwithin activates after witchtime

To be honest, I saw something fishy with my post but I posted it to not only to try and get answers from others, but to bring up a point that still seems to be true.

You're correct, there are some questions to be asked if Bat Within was used exclusively at the start of Witch Time, even if it stays accurate to her game or not. So, I did some digging.

I watched the final presentation again, and I found that Sakurai's words compared to what was being presented was confusing. I could blame it on translation, but I don't speak Japanese, so I looked instead for video evidence.

Interestingly, I found that there are two conditions Bat Within activates. One possibility at the start of Witch Time, and the other at the end. The backing to my claims are below. I've marked them with spoilers, as they contain slow motion gifs and little commentary.

Spoiler: BW Towards Start

These examples show how Bat Within activates if you use them towards the beginning of Witch Time. You can hardly see Bayonetta make any motion, yet Bat Within still comes out. This is especially evident in the last gif with Sheik and how she dodges ALL her attacks.

Spoiler: BW Towards End

These two examples show how Bat Within activates if you use it towards the end of Witch Time, one of them being WT+BW. You can see that the counter has been activated for quite some time, then to prevent it from failing, Bat Within comes out.

Conclusion:
|----|----|----|----|
Bat Within // Witch Time // WT + BW // Bat Within

There are a few things I should include with this. I have no idea if WT + BW activates at the start of Witch Time. All the areas where I included duration in this diagram are not guesses, just placeholders, so they do not represent length of the counter in any form.

I could be so bold as to say that the counter doesn't have any frames of lag after you miss your Witch Time opportunity, instead the end lag is replaced with Bat Within making this counter only truly punishable by grab.

But, who knows? Bayonetta releases in two months, all of this is subject to change.

 

[BlackCephie]

To be honest, I saw something fishy with my post but I posted it to not only to try and get answers from others, but to bring up a point that still seems to be true.

You're correct, there are some questions to be asked if Bat Within was used exclusively at the start of Witch Time, even if it stays accurate to her game or not. So, I did some digging.

I watched the final presentation again, and I found that Sakurai's words compared to what was being presented was confusing. I could blame it on translation, but I don't speak Japanese, so I looked instead for video evidence.

Interestingly, I found that there are two conditions Bat Within activates. One possibility at the start of Witch Time, and the other at the end. The backing to my claims are below. I've marked them with spoilers, as they contain slow motion gifs and little commentary.

Spoiler: BW Towards Start

These examples show how Bat Within activates if you use them towards the beginning of Witch Time. You can hardly see Bayonetta make any motion, yet Bat Within still comes out. This is especially evident in the last gif with Sheik and how she dodges ALL her attacks.

Spoiler: BW Towards End

These two examples show how Bat Within activates if you use it towards the end of Witch Time, one of them being WT+BW. You can see that the counter has been activated for quite some time, then to prevent it from failing, Bat Within comes out.

Conclusion:
|----|----|----|----|
Bat Within // Witch Time // WT + BW // Bat Within

There are a few things I should include with this. I have no idea if WT + BW activates at the start of Witch Time. All the areas where I included duration in this diagram are not guesses, just placeholders, so they do not represent length of the counter in any form.

I could be so bold as to say that the counter doesn't have any frames of lag after you miss your Witch Time opportunity, instead the end lag is replaced with Bat Within making this counter only truly punishable by grab.

But, who knows? Bayonetta releases in two months, all of this is subject to change.

This is interesting. Its almost as if you have complete freedom to get whichever effect you want, given enough practice. Would make sense considering you may want get an evasion without having to necessarily add decay to WT. My imagination has me thinking this is meant to not just be a counter, but an actual form of pertual movement. The window seems huge if you get at least SOMETHING regardless of when, in your opponents attack, you time the counter unless you just flat out miss. You still take damage if bat time activates, so its not necessarily a get out of jail free card, but more of a way to keep her evasive and able to respond with her slow startup normals. If the player has perfect timing, they get WT but cant always do it cuz decay. Only alternative is a softer counter which keeps you safe but you still take damge so it adds up. Hmmmm.

 

[Gecko Moria]

That would be awesome punish if so. Example: WT > UpSmash > footstool > Dtilt jablock (not 100% sure) > Sideb or another Smash for the kill.

I just came here to say that the bullets from her down smash jab locked link in the trailer. Go take a look.

 

[Teshie U]

Bat Within should be before Witch Time. If they make the startup in the range of 1-4 frames it could be a nice combo breaker like Ryu Focus attack.